B777ER
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting PlanenutzTB (Reply 41):
I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed out and very out of control of the traffic on the ground at JFK.

That controller on the second link has not won many friends over the years. He did a real bad berating of a maintence crew towing a plane across 13L a while back that the other guys were not proud of to say the least from what I heard. He is a good controller but seems to get stressed when things to go perfectly and at JFK on the evening intl push..things never go swimminly. Throw in bad wx and it turns real ugly real fast for JFK ground.

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 68):
How did this "ATC guy" get authorized to work JFK ground without using standard phraseology?

Stand in his shoes at this level 5 facility from say 1800 local on a night with high winds and low clouds. Do his job for just 30 min and see what you think. JFK's taxiway system and the amount of arr/dep's in the late afternoon/early evening is a disaster. My hats off to all the guys in the cab that keep the show running.
 
georgebush
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 99):
You don't want to lose $5 do you?!?

Not really. But mr. Navigator would have a different response if this Air China guy was landing in ARN. GUARENTEED!
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LTU932
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 66):
All the reason to learn the phraseology of the countries that you fly to.

Nevertheless, it's still impractical to learn another country's language in order to avoid language problems. English is the language that is used for aviation, end of story. If you can't speak English, regardless of whether you're an air traffic controller or a pilot, then stop working as a pilot/ATC until you've learned proper conversational English. Fortunately, down here in Costa Rica (and in this part of the Central America FIR) it's not such a big problem, because more and more people (not just in the aviation industry) are learning conversational English, so the only problems may arise from understanding the local accent, but at least they are making an effort in trying to be understandable.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting B777ER (Reply 100):

Stand in his shoes at this level 5 facility from say 1800 local on a night with high winds and low clouds.

Actually, in FAA levels, this is a level 12 tower...which is the busiest.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 100):
Do his job for just 30 min and see what you think.

 checkmark 
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 87):
knowing that Air China does not understand complicated english.

I don't know, how complicated is it to know you're being asked a question and not being given a command?
 
gihanjay
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 73):
I didn't hear anyone yelling. This is a frustrated controller who is having to devote all his attention to one aircraft because of a language problem that doesn't exist with many other pilots. You apparantly don't seem to understand that when you have 20 aircraft on your frequency one aircraft should not be monopolizing the conversing because of a language barrier. That's simply unacceptable in my opinion.

I have to agree with you on this one. When you have one aircraft holding up traffic due to a problem in understanding the basic ATC communications, it can be a frustrated situation. As it is JFK ATC and ground are busy handling so many flight, this makes a simple routine more difficult for the ATC to pay attention everything that is going on.
 
smashme33
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72):
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.

Yeah, right. We'd have just about zero international pilots. Think of the personnel crisis your suggestion would cause?

Personnel CRISIS? Are you serious? Learning foreign phraseology would cause no problem. It would actually give pilots more flexibility in foreign airspace. It's funny(or sad) to see how resistant some Anglophones can be to things non-Anglo, but then expect foreigners to walk some kind of line when it comes to English.

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 78):
How many different languages would you recommend that an airline pilot flying for an international carrier learn? After all, they might be landing in a Francophone country one day and into an Arabic-speaking country next. The following week could see them in Brazil and then flying into Mexico City. Oh, that would mean the pilot would need to know both Portuguese and Spanish, plus English for enroute, on the same leg.

You probably missed my post after that one. I meant learning the foreign phraseology, not the entire language.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 104):
I don't know, how complicated is it to know you're being asked a question and not being given a command?

Quite, because the Chinese language does not use the same vocal pitch changes as English.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 74):

Welcome to my RR!
 
mrniji
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 76):
Mainly Asia, and yes for whoever made the comment about Indian pilots having perfect english, I have heard more than one that does not. Most of the time people from India have a distinct, and VERY hard to understand english accent. All one needs to do is call United Airlines Reservations!

Well, you can turn this around! Often, we Americans are not understood properly by other nations (with English as prime language), because our accent is too rough to understand! And we should not claim to define the standard for well-spoken English (good grief!  Wink ). Don't forget that more English-speakers exist in India than the US. Indian ATC could complain about the American accent (let's say, even Southern, Western...), while even some Europeans - amongst them British - have occasional difficulties to understand us.. since when do we define the standard...? And hopefully never!  Wink
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ATCGOD
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 106):

Personnel CRISIS? Are you serious?

Yes. Think of a pilot flying from the US to say Israel or a similar destination. Think of all the languages that person would be required to know. Think about it.

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 106):
I meant learning the foreign phraseology, not the entire language.

Oh, ok. Have you ever looked in the 7110.65 to see what exact phraseology there is? It's not a whole lot. It's phrases like "turn right heading" or "turn ten degrees left". I can tell you right now there's no phraseology for asking a pilot if he's been cleared in the ramp area other than what that controller said. It's plain English and he didn't understand what was being said. He was picking up on gate and ramp and assuming he was cleared to proceed.

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 106):

Quite, because the Chinese language does not use the same vocal pitch changes as English.

Again, it's plain English. Are, will, can...these are all words that will without a doubt be questions. This pilot didn't understand that and that's where the fault must ultimately lie in this instance.
 
777236ER
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 89):
Unfortunately attempting to give English lessons isn't in that ATCO's job description.

But using the correct terminology is.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 91):
Well, I think you've got to understand that standard phraseology does not apply to every situation. The controller told this guy to taxi via a determined route and hold short of Mike-Alpha. Pilot reads back November. Controller reads the route again and again, the pilot reads back to hold short of November. Mind you, November is nowhere in this taxi clearance. After a third time and the controller stressing to him to hold short of Mike-Alpha and not November does the pilot read back correctly. This then skips to the point where the Air China flight is holding and waiting for ramp clearance. The controller asks if he's been cleared into the ramp. Pilot reads back, roger to the ramp. Controller tries to verify that he's been cleared to the ramp and calls three times before the pilot answers and says "go ahead". "Controller asks again, have you been cleared to the ramp?" Pilot replies, "ok, cleared to the ramp."


Now up to this point the controller has been extremely calm and very understanding of the language barrier. I have to admit I'd start getting a little frustrated here too. Can you blame him? He's asking simple questions and been getting answers as though the controller has cleared this aircraft. Complete language barrier on the part of the pilot

The controller didn't use standard terminology, and complicated things because of it. Yes, I can blame the controller for getting cross and losing his voice: by doing that he entirely compromised the CRM between himself and the crew. Imagine a few minutes later the crew weren't certain if they were cleared to cross a hold. Given the aggressive nature of the ATCO, they don't ask him. They go through the hold, and hit another 747 killing 1000.

ATCOs have to realise their job isn't to get cross or banter with crew. 'Turn here' can be incredibly confusing to a crew, especially one where English isn't the native language. Does it mean turn where the aircraft is, or turn where the tower is? Instead of asking 'have they cleared you to the ramp', which doesn't explain who 'they' are, and the use of 'cleared' suggests that this is a clearance. This is basic, basic stuff! Much like using 'departure' instead of 'take off' when a take off clearance hasn't been given.

Just in case people have any doubt about the potential problems of ATCOs not using correct terminology and compromising CRM:

Your bone's got a little machine
 
smashme33
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 108):
Again, it's plain English. Are, will, can...these are all words that will without a doubt be questions. This pilot didn't understand that and that's where the fault must ultimately lie in this instance.

I'm not debating against pilots having decent English abilities when flying into Anglophone airspace. This pilot should have more English training. I understand that the controller had plenty of work to do, but he was not accomodating enough to the situation. If it takes him 25 times to get the correct readback from the pilot, that's what has to happen, as aggravating as it may be. Raising one's voice does nothing but intimidate and cause more confusion. If someone said something to you in a foreign language, and you did not understand, would someone getting hissy and raising their voice make it any clearer to you? Another problem was this controller's use of nonstandard phraseology(which I know has already been mentioned). The more frustrated the controller became, the more jargon he used. Slow, calm, crystal-clear aviation phraseology should have been used with this pilot until he arrived to the gate.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109):
Yes, I can blame the controller for getting cross and losing his voice: by doing that he entirely compromised the CRM between himself and the crew.

That had already been compromised because of the lack of verbal communication between crew and controller.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109):
Imagine a few minutes later the crew weren't certain if they were cleared to cross a hold. Given the aggressive nature of the ATCO, they don't ask him. They go through the hold, and hit another 747 killing 1000.

Your example here does not make any sense. That's the entire reason they should speak and understand English. Imagine you have 20 crews that understood English like this pilot...there would be mass chaos and that wouldn't be the fault of the controller.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 109):
'Turn here' can be incredibly confusing to a crew, especially one where English isn't the native language.

Picking and choosing your quotes here I see. I do believe he says, "make the right turn here onto taxiway Juliet". Not to mention the fact that the pilot actually understands that he is to turn right onto Juliet and reads that back correctly. He just doesn't understand where to hold short.

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 110):
If it takes him 25 times to get the correct readback from the pilot, that's what has to happen, as aggravating as it may be.

And that's why he doesn't just say ^*ck it and continue.

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 110):
Raising one's voice does nothing but intimidate and cause more confusion.

I agree, and although I've tried to defend that he was stressed and that stressed out people will raise their voice, apparantly no one can understand that. So lets just say he shouldn't have raised his voice.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.



Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 66):
I think I was misunderstood here. I was saying that it could be a two-way street...Non-Anglophone carriers should learn and practice adequately the English phraseology before being allowed the opportunity to fly to places with English-only ATC. Anglophone pilots should learn the phraseology of the foreign countries that they fly to, that way, if there becomes a misunderstanding in English, the foreign country's language can be the backup.

Why are you picking on native English speaking pilots? It's not a two way street, it's an n-way street. You do realize that non-English speaking pilots would have to learn the other non-anglophone languages? Do you think that is going to work well? Is it reasonable to expect that pilots flying to multiple countries learn the languages of all those countries? And what about passing through airspace of other countries on long haul routes? Do you propose that they learn the languages of every single country they pass over? The reason for choosing one is language is that it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to have knowledge of a multitude of langauges.
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 80):
In 2 years time ICAO's English language proficiency grading will come into force. It will become mandatory for pilots and controllers to get tested on their ability to listen to, understand and speak English for use on the job. Even native English speakers will be tested. The test will grade candidates from 1 to 6. 6 = native speaker eqivalent and 4 being a pass but requiring recurring tests every year. If you get 3 or below you cannot fly/control. But it's up to the local CAA of the country to administer the tests so standards are likely to vary.

That is a pass/fail item now in our pilot selection process, everyone in the company is in the process of being tested.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 83):
Put yourself in his shoes. We're not all the same, nor perfect and in stressful conditions are you any different? Didn't think so.

FYI Cloudyapple would handle more Air China flights in one day than what JFK would do in a month, so I think he is the one who has experience on his side here. I never hear the ATC people here raise their voice like that, nor speak so fast when it is obvious that the content of the transmission is not understood.

The transmissions to me sounded like the controller was totally frustrated, he has no place to take it out on the people paying for his service. Dealing with international flights is part of his job description at JFK.

No individual is expected to speak any language, even his/her own native language, correctly and in a standard way. Acknowledging this fact is a first step towards developing or enhancing communication skills. The standard language of pilot/controller communications is intended to overcome this basic shortcoming that everyone has, native english speaker or not.

A jetblue pilot might give it back as good as that controller gives, thats American culture, in Asian culture, becuase the pilot is getting directions from the controller, he is the subordinate in the relationship, by raising his voice at the pilots they will think they have angered their master. As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.

The controller did not enunciate each word clearly and distinctly, maintain an even rate of speech (exceeding the ICAO recommended 100 words per minute), and did not maintain the speaking volume at a constant level.

From my point of view the controller failed in the above objectives, which is a latent causal factor waiting for an accident to happen.

BTW having a user name "ATCGOD", and not willing to accept the observations of others is a red flag/threat in every CRM course I have ever been on. My biggest concern if that several people on this thread have outlined how the controller did not use concise transmissions in a normal conversational tone, did not make full use of standard phraseologies prescribed in ICAO documents and procedures, and did not use speech transmitting techniques such that the highest possible intelligibility is incorporated in each transmission.
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gffgold
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:38 am

I work as a native speaker teacher of English in S.E. Asia. It is not rocket science to include an English language component - and a STANDARDIZED proficiency test - in the training program for commercial pilots and ATC. Heck, I'd like nothing better than to teach and examine the course myself.

It is an inescapable fact that Chinese speakers have major problems hearing and reproducing some of the basic phonemes (sounds) of English, and that this can only be addressed by extensive practice and exposure to English on a regular basis. A crash (not a pun!) course in ATC-speak is NOT sufficient.

Because of their linguistic background Chinese speakers have a much tougher job learning English than most, and the way English is taught in the PRC really doesn't help.

It is also my experience as a linguist that N American speakers of English have more trouble than most in tuning in to 'foreign' accents. I'm not sure the best way to crack that particular nut!
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 113):
The transmissions to me sounded like the controller was totally frustrated, he has no place to take it out on the people paying for his service.

Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 113):
As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.

Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 113):
BTW having a user name "ATCGOD", and not willing to accept the observations of others is a red flag/threat in every CRM course I have ever been on.

Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread. I've stated that he could have handled this better, but considering that he had to tell the pilots three times where to hold short of is inexcusable. The fact that he was asking a question and the Air China pilot read back control instructions is inexcusible. You need to understand that ATC's job is to safely expedite the flow of traffic. This pilot prevented that from happening.

I'll tell ya what Zeke...I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?
 
gffgold
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.

Good point. Let's include cultural issues in training.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:13 am

Mostly rehashed stuff or nitpicking:

Perhaps its actually time to make sure that major international airports have Chinese/French/Spanish-speaking controllers (French and Spanish are also official languages of the ICAO)?

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.

But being able to communicate clearly absolutely is. The controller in this case, made it worse by being more complex than necessary.

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 114):
It is also my experience as a linguist that N American speakers of English have more trouble than most in tuning in to 'foreign' accents. I'm not sure the best way to crack that particular nut!

A major reason being that many Americans are not exposed to foreign languages as early as those in other countries. Most Americans don't have even basic proficiency in a foreign language. Then again, there are enough Americans who do to ensure that jobs requiring such proficiency are filled and capably executed.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 113):
No individual is expected to speak any language, even his/her own native language, correctly and in a standard way.

Particularly with English, which has several major standards, or Mandarin, which has two standards.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 72):
Not just as far as you're concerned, but it's the official ICAO language.

As an official agency of the UN, it has six official languages: English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, and Mandarin Chinese.

And in countries where these are official, it's often the case that another language may be used: in China, Mandarin, or Russia and Kazakhstan, Russian. Aviation, too, is a multilingual enterprise.
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):

Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.

Every airline pays the FAA. Airlines currently pay about 10 billion in ticket and other taxes that currently underwrite much of the air traffic control system, they do pay for the service.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description.

Nor is knowing how to go to the bathroom or how to use the kitchen, some things do not need to be written down.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread.

It was an observation on your comments and the name you chose for yourself, nothing else. Your comments like "Knowing Asian cultures is NOT in their job description" and "this pilot needs some English lessons", if indicative of all FAA controllers further strengthens my observations.

It shows that you do not understand that it is the controller that sets the standard of communication in their airspace, not the pilot. By not using standard phraseology and not following other ICAO RT procedures is at the crux of the problem.

If all FAA controllers were perfect, there would be a perfect record for runway incursions and other incidents, and maybe you would not have people taking off on unlit runways. But we know that is not the case.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Uh, Air China in absolutely no way pays for the ATC service over here. Get your facts straight. Maybe indirectly (very indirectly through fuel taxes and landing fees) but I don't know anything about those so I'll assume that money goes to the port authority or whoever operates the airport.

incorrect, all airlines that serves US of A pay the FAA. God eh, get your facts straight.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
Insult me all you like, but I think you need to read the posts I've dropped on this thread. I've stated that he could have handled this better, but considering that he had to tell the pilots three times where to hold short of is inexcusable. The fact that he was asking a question and the Air China pilot read back control instructions is inexcusible. You need to understand that ATC's job is to safely expedite the flow of traffic. This pilot prevented that from happening.

I'll tell ya what Zeke...I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?

i have my total respect to Zeke, and i believe most of the forum do too, just simply check out his RR rating. i'm not going to insult you here, but your RR rating pretty much concludes the story.


P.S. the world "inexcusible" from your previous reply cannot be found in Oxford, Cambridge and Webster Dictionary.
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
B777ER
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 113):
A jetblue pilot might give it back as good as that controller gives, thats American culture, in Asian culture, becuase the pilot is getting directions from the controller, he is the subordinate in the relationship, by raising his voice at the pilots they will think they have angered their master. As soon as you raise you voice to the Air China pilots they will automatically become more submissive, which could lead to any reply just to please the "angry master", which is exactly what we heard at the end with the ramp clearance.

LOL!! This statement is gold! Everyone that flies into and out of JFK should know you dont "anger the masters", they will have you doing loops up on taxiway P and Q all night. Seriously some of you talk like your reading out of a damn book. Welcome to the real world people! JFK is JFK. All of you wannabe masters of the ICAO language guide need to realize that while you sit and fret over this atc/pilot exchange for the last few days, JFK controllers have been getting planes in and out with no problems just like they do every night and day year in and year out irregardless of ICAO standards or not. If it was so bad in JFK one would think the FAA would be doing something about it no? If those Air China pilots get all upset and start cowering in the cockpit because some controller wants to verify the information then they should stick to flying Harbin's inside China. "Angry masters"....gimme a break.
 
P3Orion
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 74):
The callsign isn't 'nine eighty one', it's 'niner eight wun' - another case of non-standard phraseology

Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 103):
Actually, in FAA levels, this is a level 12 tower...which is the busiest.

JFK ATCT is an ATC 10.

[Edited 2007-04-14 06:11:22]
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
kdm
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:21 pm

I remember flying from LA to London on United and listening to channel 12? the entire trip a number of years ago.

When flying over Scotland the ATC was trying to communicate with the American pilot. The scottish ATC gave instructions 4 times, each time the American pilot repeated incorrectly. Finally they got a different ATC to speak to the first officer and the message got through.

Just goes to show it is not only language. In two english speaking Countries with different accents communication between ATC and the Pilot did not work.
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121):
Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."

as zeke said, the world is a lot bigger then just USA. and USA should be no different from any other country, and should apply standard ICAO phraseology.
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121):

Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."

Actually either is correct according to the FAA http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
iwok
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47):
Instead, like Zeke says, all ATCs and pilots around the world should be properly trained in and adhering to standard ICAO terminology, which is obviously designed for clear and effective communication.

ICAO terminology will only get you so far. You need to understand the language so that, for example, you can understand that a question is being asked. When people understand terminology only and have no idea of what the context is, you wind up with this...


Quoting SkyGazer (Reply 47):
Anyone even with the smallest bit of experience in with dealing with people with limited English abilities would know that getting your point across by saying only as much as needed (and as little as possible sometimes without cutting vital bits out) is the way to go if you want them to understand properly.

Well, I listened to the whole clip. I'll agree that the comments about getting out and clearing the taxiways was inappropriate (fortunately for the crew, they had no idea what was being said  Smile . However the ATC had to ask repeat himself multiple times thereafter and it took 5-6 attempts to get the crew to understand that he was asking a question. The crew was to eager to listed for the few words that they understood, without listening for the actual meaning of the sentences.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 35):
For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, may be incomprehensible to an english speaker in South Africa.

Ya okey ey... And Canadians speak Canadian English, Aussies their own blend, South Africans their own blend and so on, yet we can all understand when a question in being asked..
 
zvocio79
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:31 pm

not need to speak english fluently, but they should have at least the technical english they use on their field.
how about ATC speaking more than one language here in the US? do american pilots have to speak chinese, russian or something when flying to those places?
 
gffgold
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Kdm (Reply 122):
When flying over Scotland the ATC was trying to communicate with the American pilot. The scottish ATC gave instructions 4 times, each time the American pilot repeated incorrectly. Finally they got a different ATC to speak to the first officer and the message got through.

I bet the scottish controllers dealt with it patiently and didn't get stroppy. People skills are part of the training at CATS.
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 125):
Ya okey ey... And Canadians speak Canadian English, Aussies their own blend, South Africans their own blend and so on, yet we can all understand when a question in being asked..

This same topic came up on pprune, a number of native english speakers piped up and said they had problems with controllers at JFK.

If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..

Quote:
True, but Kennedy ATC don't exactly help themselves either. Even those of us that are native english speakers sometimes have trouble!



Quote:
I think the ground guy, like most NA controllers needs to A: Slow Down B: Use standard R/T Phraseology C: show a little patience and understanding

sorry but I have every sympathy for Air china in this case...............Next time you have to ask the other guy to translate what Tapei or Tokyo are saying.....................think about this OK ??



Quote:
"In the northeast, it seems the controllers love to rapid-fire those radiocalls, often at the expense of clarity, they need to realize that foreign carriers are not in tune with the clipped slang they use over there.
You often hear them repeat 3 or 4 times, which makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to say those clearances more slowly and clearly, so they can be read back correctly the first time.

Another thing is that the atc controllers there have this lovely new york attitude, and can seem quite intimidating/overbearing at times, a quality that can work badly with some cultures.



Quote:
me thinks the RT phraseology at JFK sucks at the best of times, even I dont understand them half the time and I'm English!!! Imagine how
Wun Wing Lo feels



Quote:
The controller is just rude...as usual, think there's a case where a Singapore Cargo pilot was in similar situation, got yelled at by the JFK controllers...oh well.

If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
qslinger
Posts: 231
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9):
I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers, so you guys won't mix up CI with CA again

Excellent Job!! U put in a lot of effort!
Raj Koona
 
kdm
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting GFFgold (Reply 127):
bet the Scottish controllers dealt with it patiently and didn't get stroppy

Correct, it was handled very professionally by both sides, the American pilot conceded that he didn't understand and offered to hand communication to someone else, like wise the Scottish controller did not raise his voice at all.

That said if he had of been from Glasgow and after several pints of lager he might have got a little aggressive. (Is that PC?, my dad was from Glasgow and I never saw him drunk and aggressive)
 
ardian
Posts: 506
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 34):
The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusion because non-standard language can mean ambiguous instructions. It would be like a hotshot programmer coming into a project that's been written entirely in C++, and deciding that since he's so damned good, he can get back with some assembly here and there. Fine, he can do that just fine, and maybe the guy in the office next to him can read it and understand what he's doing, but the rest of the team is left screwed. If something happens to him, everyone loses because they're not on the same page.

It's one thing to have banter between the correct and effective communications, but it's another to abandon protocol for the banter entirely. It's a protocol for a reason.

Excellent explanation. The best way to communicate:
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid
I see it from both sides: The pilot has really got to improve his English and the ATC must avoid the 'joe cool'.
Imagine the faces of the passengers (who understand a bit about aviation) listening to Channel 9 during this conversation
 
777236ER
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111):
That had already been compromised because of the lack of verbal communication between crew and controller.

No, not really. The psychological nature of the teamworking changes entirely when the ATCO raises his voice. Another flight crew member ends up speaking to the ATCO - so the ATCO has caused a significant shift in crew workload on the flight deck, at a time where they should be talking to another frequency, looking out for other aircraft and making sure they don't go through holds.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111):
Your example here does not make any sense. That's the entire reason they should speak and understand English. Imagine you have 20 crews that understood English like this pilot...there would be mass chaos and that wouldn't be the fault of the controller.

Or, you can have crews and ATCOs that speak perfect English and don't use standard phraseology, resulting in this:



Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111):

Picking and choosing your quotes here I see. I do believe he says, "make the right turn here onto taxiway Juliet". Not to mention the fact that the pilot actually understands that he is to turn right onto Juliet and reads that back correctly. He just doesn't understand where to hold short.

It doesn't matter what quotes I pick and choose! If there is any non-standard phraseology, and confusing commands, then there is scope for problems to occur!

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121):
Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."

Actually, the FAA also mandates the ICAO phraseology too. It is ridiculous that the FAA is one of the only authorities that changes a simple 'niner eight wun' (which the flight crew will hear every day) to 'nine eighty one'. If the ATCO doesn't realise that something as simple as this can compromise CRM, he's a fool.

Had the aircraft gone through a hold and caused an accident, the ATCO would be on manslaughter charges right now.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
PVG
Posts: 465
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:13 pm

You think that the JFK thing was bad. You should listen to ch. 9 on UA when we take off from PVG. Imagine an Indian pilot speaking accented english with a Chinese ATC guy speaking broken/accented English. That's repeated all day with these guys talking to people who are not native english speakers. Sounds very dangerous and is a recipe for disaster. Really should be a requirement for all pilots and ATC people working on international flights to be able to communicate at a certain level of clarity. Maybe a special lingo that can be quickly used in situations where the communication is unclear can be developed.
 
ACFA
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:54 pm

An AC pilot told me once that if they have a rejected takeoff in PEK, the procedure is to declare a MAYDAY so that ATC stops everything. Previously when they told PEK tower that they were rejecting, the controllers had no understanding and cleared the plane behind them for takeoff anyways.
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 119):
but your RR rating pretty much concludes the story.

Oh, because I don't always voice my opinion and am relatively new to A.net means I know nothing. Right, keep your oh so mighty RR of 2 to yourself. I'm not on here to boost my RR, I saw an opposite point of view and decided to share it. Keep your little jabs to yourself, you don't see me insulting you right? I respect your opinion and Zekes, I just think you're wrong. Isn't that what A.net is about? Perhaps you should respect that I'm offering a different point of view here, and we're just disagreeing.

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121):
JFK ATCT is an ATC 10.

Well I'll be damned...I actually had to look that up and you're right. I should have looked that up before but just assumed it was a 12. Thanks for correcting me.

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 121):
Wrong. FAA phraseology for Air Carriers is in group form; i.e. "Nine eighty one."

 checkmark  You'll never (or very, very, rarely hear "niner eight wun"). Usually only when the previous communications haven't worked for some reason.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 124):
Actually either is correct according to the FAA

I couldn't get your link to work.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 128):
If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..

My opinion is that it's the severe diversity of dialects and lack of understanding English at that airport.

Quoting Kdm (Reply 130):
Correct, it was handled very professionally by both sides, the American pilot conceded that he didn't understand and offered to hand communication to someone else, like wise the Scottish controller did not raise his voice at all.

Very good story...probably what should have been done in this occasion is that the ATC'r should have had a little more patience and kept his voice low but the culpability can't totally lie with him if Air China doesn't read back the right hold instructions or understands a command instead of a question.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 132):
Had the aircraft gone through a hold and caused an accident, the ATCO would be on manslaughter charges right now.

Well, in this case I'd say you're more likely to see one of his other aircraft go through a hold and cross a runway inadvertantly because he's having to pay so much attention to this one aircraft. I used to work at an AFB here in the states that has US and German pilots and let me tell you, when you can't control or figure out what one of those Tornados are saying you have to keep your eye on them...and that has led to seperation violations, airspace violations, etc. All because you're tunnel-visioned on what this one aircraft is doing.

In retrospect if I were this controller I'd cut off comms with him and switch to the light gun. "Air China 981 expect light gun signals". You think he'd understand that when a bright solid red light shone at him? We'll never know but maybe this is something to think about for the future. A pilot you can't understand just gets the light gun signals. Of course, I don't know how that would work with this guy getting into the ramp area.  crossfingers 
 
raventom
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:50 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 125):

That sign is in a totally different context. It's translated using a computer and we all know the computer cannot do that perfectly. Whearas when talking about RT, the standard ICAO RT should be sufficient as it is designed to do that. There should be a little background understanding but it is not necessary to learn the Oxford Dicationary.
I love the smell of burnt kerosene!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
777236ER
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135):
checkmark You'll never (or very, very, rarely hear "niner eight wun"). Usually only when the previous communications haven't worked for some reason.

You'll always hear "niner eight wun" outside of the US in the Western world, why not in America? ICAO phraseology exists for a reason.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135):

In retrospect if I were this controller I'd cut off comms with him and switch to the light gun. "Air China 981 expect light gun signals". You think he'd understand that when a bright solid red light shone at him? We'll never know but maybe this is something to think about for the future. A pilot you can't understand just gets the light gun signals. Of course, I don't know how that would work with this guy getting into the ramp area. crossfingers

Which is still agressive and destroys CRM. Do you get any CRM training?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 137):
Which is still agressive and destroys CRM. Do you get any CRM training?

It's not aggressive. It's trying something different after the previous method obviously hadn't been working. I'm a pilot and a controller, I know all about CRM.


BTW, I love the pic under "other info" on your user profile. Hilarious.
 
raventom
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:50 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 135):

Quoting Zeke (Reply 128):
If a number of pilots are all saying the same thing about JFK controllers....what is the common link ..

My opinion is that it's the severe diversity of dialects and lack of understanding English at that airport.

The common link is the lack of standard RT from both ends.
I love the smell of burnt kerosene!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Raventom (Reply 139):
The common link is the lack of standard RT from both ends

Excellent assessment.
 
A342
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:43 am

I agree, pilots simply cannot learn all the languages they might need on intl' flights, even if it were just the words they need to communicate with ATC. They might easily become confused between so many different languages.

But I think it would be feasible to pre-record aviation phraseology in languages other than English, just in case one of the parties (ATC or pilots) doesn't understand. This could then be played if needed.

I've read that at DME, in the future, foreign pilots are going to communicate with ATC via text messages, and this includes an automatic translator (Russian <=> English).

Quoting Zeke (Reply 128):

Zeke, from your experience, where in the world does ATC speak the most clearly understandable English?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 138):

It's not aggressive. It's trying something different after the previous method obviously hadn't been working. I'm a pilot and a controller, I know all about CRM.

Well then do you think that raising your voice - and whether you agree with it, he certainly did that - promotes good communication?

The controller continued to use non-standard phraseology after he realised the crew were having communication problems. Let me ask you, a flight has a radio problem causing low readability - do you use non-standard phraseology?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 111):
So lets just say he shouldn't have raised his voice.



Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 115):
I'll concede that he shouldn't have raised his voice if you'll concede this pilot needs some English lessons. Deal?



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 142):
Well then do you think that raising your voice - and whether you agree with it, he certainly did that - promotes good communication?

I've not disputed the fact that he raised his voice nor that it was wrong to do so. I've conceded the point and we're beating a dead horse now.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 142):
do you use non-standard phraseology?

I would say every controller in the world uses non-standard phraseology because there is not standard phraseology for every situation.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 142):
Let me ask you, a flight has a radio problem causing low readability - do you use non-standard phraseology?

No, I tell him to try another radio. It sounds like you, and Zeke, have a problem with FAA controllers. Did you have a bad experience with us?

[Edited 2007-04-14 23:24:54]
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6126
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 98):
someone really needs to send that tape to Air China.

As it should be send to that ATC's boss. No one's denying that the Chinese pilot's command of English is a disaster, but ATC guy acting like an arrogant prick did not help the situation either. Maybe he should get a passport and travel a bit to get a reality check and realize that not everyone speaks the same language and/or English slang like guys in his local pub.
 
raventom
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:50 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 144):
Did you have a bad experience with us?

A little birdie told me they were rude and try to sound cool.
I love the smell of burnt kerosene!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
stanley
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:28 pm

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:10 pm

I am an atc from Chengdu acc in China. ADS-A and CPDLC are in use via L888. On the other hand, about forty foreign aircrafts operate via B330 under radar control everyday. Of course, English is not our native language. We try our best to communicate with the foreign pilots in standard phraseology . But misunderstanding situations occur frequently. Anyway, ICAO advised standard phraseology can not be learned well by the pilots belong to ICAO members,especially the pilots whose native language is English. Accent is yet a factor for some pilots. Moreover, about CPDLC, the transmission speed is not good all the time, although text information can reduce misunderstanding situations.
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 30050
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Stanley (Reply 147):
English is not our native language. We try our best to communicate with the foreign pilots in standard phraseology

What numbers of foreign carrier land out there/day.Whats the spacing like.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 392
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 32):
That is just too bad for you then. The consistently best service are all provided mostly by Asian carriers

And you would forego safety just for better service?
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