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iadguy73
Topic Author
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Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:05 am

With air traffic back to pre 9-11 levels, outdated FAA computer systems; and possible ATC staffing problems; will the US airports and controllers be able to handle the increased number of flights as a result of the EU-US open ski agreement? How long before our air traffic control system has a complete meltdown?
 
LawnDart
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting IADguy73 (Thread starter):
How long before our air traffic control system has a complete meltdown?

Well, as you've alluded to, U.S. ATC has a complete meltdown every time a snow flake hits ORD or JFK, or a raincloud passes over DFW or ATL!

I'm not sure open skies means more than 20 additional daily flights between the U.S. and Europe, at least initially, so if you think the ATC system is handling the thousands of daily flight currently (domestic and int'l), it shouldn't be a problem.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:20 am

While on this point, can LHR handle open skies? Skies could be clear and a million and every time we fly BA international from LAX/SFO to STR and connect through LHR we have to hold for minimum 20/30 minutes and longer, and the 20/30 is on the best of days.
 
Flighty
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:40 am

The US ATC system is put to the test every single day. And it passes every single day.

I'd be more worried about Brazil or the Phillippines.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
U.S. ATC has a complete meltdown every time a snow flake hits ORD or JFK, or a raincloud passes over DFW or ATL

Is that right? A meltdown every time......I think you actually may desire to rethink that absurd statement! If you understand why airspace and airports get reduced arrival/departure capacity then you may want to change your phrase from complete meltdown to something more in line with what is actually happening, if not okay, enjoy!

Do you know that when 2-3 pilots refuse an approach or an arrival route due to build ups or due to a growing thunderstorm and wants to deviate into the departure routes that you just can't keep driving 130 airplanes an hour into an airport/airspace when that traffic flow/rate is based upon optimal conditions? And, do you realize that if an airport closes a runway to plow some snow or closes a taxiway to do de-icing, that impact the overall operation........of course you do.

So, care to change your phrase?  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
atct
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
Well, as you've alluded to, U.S. ATC has a complete meltdown every time a snow flake hits ORD or JFK, or a raincloud passes over DFW or ATL!

Well as someone from IAH (ALOT busier than JFK), we handle it. No matter what "new equipment" you give us, its not going to make a pilot shoot an approach through a level 5, let alone a 6, thunderstorm.

Regarding snow, what does ATC have to do with that? Its now our fault that De-icing operations and runway plowing has closed a runway? Last I checked that was the airport operator.

Anywho I always wonder why people say "New equipment" is going to help us. Yes the FDIO (Flight Data Computer...it is the computer that we use to type in flight plans, get full route clearances etc. etc. etc.) is a little slow on the initial end but it prints out those flight strips pretty quick.

The one problem I agree with is staffing. We are short, but at the same time, they are churning out recruits at the academy as quick as possible. It'll take time, and yes there are probably some things that could be done better, but they are working on it. (Im a living witness to that).

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
LawnDart
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
Is that right? A meltdown every time......I think you actually may desire to rethink that absurd statement!

Chill, dude...you're acting like a defensive Air Traffic Controller! Oh, wait...I just looked at your profile...sorry  smile .

Okay, my statement was pretty broad, but ATC can not handle the amount of traffic at peak times at certain airports, and the impact of meteorological conditions makes it worse, and the effect ripples across the country.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
you may want to change your phrase from complete meltdown to something more in line with what is actually happening

Okay, not "complete meltdown"...how about "flow control programs" instituted because of "excess demand", and it is made worse if something happens out of the ordinary, like:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
Do you know that when 2-3 pilots refuse an approach or an arrival route due to build ups or due to a growing thunderstorm and wants to deviate into the departure routes

How about when ATC refuses filed routes because they can't handle the amount of traffic...DCA or IND center ring a bell? The resulting routes that airlines have to plan flights with to avoid these centers costs lots of $$$.

If a restaurant has excess demand and you have to wait one hour for a table, can't you go somewhere else? If ATC has excess demand, you must wait because you can't go anywhere. The fact that ATC can't handle the demand means either demand needs to be reduced (shame on you for wanting to fly on a Friday afternoon!!!), or the ability to absorb the demand will need to be addressed.

By the way, have you ever flown through a "growing thunderstorm"? Trust me, if a captain requests a deviation around a growing thunderstorm, he has a good reason.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
If you understand why airspace and airports get reduced arrival/departure capacity then

In my past work experiences, I have
1) contributed to capacity congestion,
2) analyzed the effect and
3) lived with the results...

I have a passing understanding of airspace and airport constraints, and I empathize with what you have to put up with. Tell me, though, could the situation be improved?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

Quoting IADguy73 (Thread starter):
will the US airports and controllers be able to handle the increased number of flights as a result of the EU-US open ski agreement? How long before our air traffic control system has a complete meltdown?



Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
it shouldn't be a problem.
 
graphic
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
The US ATC system is put to the test every single day. And it passes every single day.

Tell that to Comair.
Demand Media fails at life
 
P3Orion
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 7):
Tell that to Comair

That's uncalled for. LEX ATCT didn't line up and roll down the wrong runway.
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
Chill, dude...you're acting like a defensive Air Traffic Controller! Oh, wait...I just looked at your profile...sorry .

Ahhhhh and a defensive pilot also. And your profile offers us what, nothing! At least I have balls enough to put my career in here.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
Okay, my statement was pretty broad, but ATC can not handle the amount of traffic at peak times at certain airports, and the impact of meteorological conditions makes it worse, and the effect ripples across the country.

Yep pretty broad and I will agree with you there....ATC, define ATC? Are your speaking of the entire system of which some sectors have exceeded their allowed aircraft numbers in the enroute arena or are you speaking of the system which separation standards don't allow the through put into an airport that is capable of handling many arrivals/departures an hour, or, are you referring to the airports in the system that just can't handle the demand?

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
Okay, not "complete meltdown"...how about "flow control programs" instituted because of "excess demand", and it is made worse if something happens out of the ordinary, like:

Thank you for clarifying. Flow control programs are not only in place due to excess demand, they are also in place to not overload a sector, if weather impacts the Cedar Creek sector of ZFW then put in a flow control because airplanes just are not going to fly their filed route due to convective activity, deviations take place and the entire sector can go south quickly.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
How about when ATC refuses filed routes because they can't handle the amount of traffic

How about if they have weather impacting that sector and have routed traffic out of it to avoid further problems due to weather?

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
By the way, have you ever flown through a "growing thunderstorm"? Trust me, if a captain requests a deviation around a growing thunderstorm, he has a good reason

LMAO.....ah yes I have, it was not pretty! Why trust you.....you show no reason to trust you! Give me a reason and I might.

I trust the person on the other end of the radio telling us that they need to deviate 20 degrees left RIGHT NOW for 20 miles for a build up.....and we go from there which leads me to back to an earlier thought. That deviation may just take me as a pilot or controller, into the oncoming arrival back or departure bank, and that is part of your DCA or IND reference I suspect. It is not that they can't handle the traffic, it is that climbing and descending airplanes head on just don't work, nor do airplanes at the same altitude due to weather all on crossing courses work! Think about it.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
I have a passing understanding

Passing.......please define and I do thank you for your empathy in what has to be endured.

Sorry for picking on your entire post, I only thought of issues to address.  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
cactushp
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:49 am

Air Traffic Control is one of the few occupations where as if you make a mistake...well, chances are the results would not be very good. You have to be 100% EVERY time, and the comair incident proves this.
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
jacobin777
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 2):
While on this point, can LHR handle open skies?

...sure it will be able to because the amount of slots will still be the limiting factor.......even with open skies, frequency will not increase dramatically...
"Up the Irons!"
 
SPREE34
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Cactushp (Reply 10):
Air Traffic Control is one of the few occupations where as if you make a mistake...well, chances are the results would not be very good. You have to be 100% EVERY time, and the comair incident proves this.

How does the Comair incident prove this?

I understand the 100% thing. That is why Controllers usually have a B,C, and D plan for thier A plan.

In the Comair incident you had 1 Controller doing the work that 2 should have been doing, and without adequate rest. Two aircrew functioning in a nonstandard airfield environment, and without adequate rest. The rest issue keeps popping up in incident after incident. I guess we aren't killing enough people to effect the bottom line yet.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
graphic
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 8):
That's uncalled for. LEX ATCT didn't line up and roll down the wrong runway.

No, but had the FAA properly staffed the tower with 2 people, the mistake would have been easily caught, and 48 people wouldn't have died. When people die as a result of complacency, that is a system failure, any way you look at it. Yes, Comair's crew rest needs to be looked at, but when ATC failed to prevent the only flight at the time from rolling down the wrong runway, ATC failed. The very purpose of ATC is to control aircraft in their airspace, and any way you shake a stick at it, they failed to do that.
Demand Media fails at life
 
cactushp
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 12):
How does the Comair incident prove this?

Exactly the reasons you just said, like: not enough rest (for both pilots and controller), inadequate staffing etc. all show that they were not at 100%.
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
fxra
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:01 am

I was informed during a TRACON visit once that it works like this. The FAA (Air Traffic Control) sets an arrival/departure rate for an airport based on best case, is clear skies and a light breeze down the runway. They also set rates for various different meteorlogical conditions. Airlines are allowed to schedule based on those numbers, hence one reason you have an 0831, 0832, and 0833 departure time, not a bunch of 0830. At major hub airports, the airlines tend to schedule to the MAX allowable departure/arrival rates.So when the weather drops, the airlines have screwed themselves. But the next question is, how many days does the weather drop enough to cause diversions (and associated costs) versus the days it all works out?

Now, to the original question posed by the thread starter. Yes, I think the US ATC system can handle the EU-US open skies. At least for the immediate future. I don't see a flurry or startups across the Atlantic or a buying frenzy of airframes for carriers to add routes. For instance, with Delta adding LHR to it's route structure, I would guess capacity to LGW will be reduced, or some other route. The same number of airplanes are going to be in the air.

Both sides of the Atlantic will need to improve their systems to handle the predicted increase over time, and I think the steps are being taken. Our European friends aren't immune to same conditions that affect the US ATC. We're better at handling convection in the US, and (whether you buy into global warming or not) we're seeing more of it in Europe... and they're learning. Conversely the Germans have keeping the runways clear of snow down ( and in all fairness so do the great folks in MSP, ANC and BGR.... the ones i have the most experience with).

The people who are going to feel the real impact first though are the oceanic sectors. There are a lot of airplanes crassing the NATS and we're all basically using the same system thats been in place since WW2. While TCAS and CPDL have improved safety and efficiency, its still relaying a position report to a person in Gander or Shanwick, then the controller checking other traffic for conflicts and getting back to the plane. You're till pretty much on your own out there.

If it get too bad, the US can just go to the EU system of slot controlling major airports.
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
echster
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:20 am

Adding my 2 cents....

IMHO, enroute ATC-wise, the US ATC system can handle thousands more aircraft than it presently does. Face it, the US has a lot of airspace in the FLs. Unfortunately, terminal ATC-wise, the US ATC system is getting closer and closer to maxxing out.

What's needed, more than anything, are more runways in our large metro areas. NYC, Chicago, LA, SoFla....all need more concrete. What we lack, to put simply, is runway capacity.

Indulge with me as I use an analogy. Think of the US ATC system like a McDonald's (or another fast food restaurant) drive-thru. Have you ever noticed how many entrances there are to a McDonald's parking lot? Where I live in SoCal, they have 4-6 ways to get into the lot. Now think about how many ways there are to get into the drive-thru. Yep, one way. All that traffic, coming from different directions, has but one drive-thru. Everyone has seen the bottlenecks at the drive-thru as vehicles line-up for that one entrance. Catch on yet? Aircraft can get to an airport (parking lot) from every conceivable direction. Somewhere, though, before landing they have to be lined-up for the runway (drive-thru).
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting Echster (Reply 16):
Adding my 2 cents....

IMHO, enroute ATC-wise, the US ATC system can handle thousands more aircraft than it presently does. Face it, the US has a lot of airspace in the FLs. Unfortunately, terminal ATC-wise, the US ATC system is getting closer and closer to maxxing out.

I'll drop a penny on in just for fun!  Smile

Respectfully I have to slightly disagree ...at major airports with enough runways to land 120+ aircraft an hour it is the enroute sectors who are not able to give the terminal enough airplanes via the arrival routes in most cases to match that arrival rate. Many times during the day the enroute sectors vector folks off course, combat turns as you know.....slow down, turn again, slow more, fly an extra 30 miles quite often or more only to reach a downwind at 6,000'.....start down to 2,000' abeam the final approach fix and be turning base no more than 12 miles out, only because the airplanes don't come down and slow down well anymore...give me the B727 back for a slam dunk. With all those turns and speed restrictions it would seem that you would be flying a long downwind as it is rush hour.

That happens often while the enroute sector is working to get a good 7 NM spacing and the terminal is able to run it right down to 3, as long as wake turbulence is not an issue. I find the terminal airspace being packed oh yes, but with the current separation standards with the enroute arena and the MAP numbers set, I think the terminal airspace is not the choke point, not yet.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
but had the FAA properly staffed the tower with 2 people, the mistake would have been easily caught

There is nothing that guarantees having 1 more controller in the tower is going to catch that mistake of rolling down the wrong runway, the chances certainly are increased but unless that controller was standing up looking at that departure taking the wrong runway it could have been just as easily missed.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
bond007
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
No, but had the FAA properly staffed the tower with 2 people, the mistake would have been easily caught, and 48 people wouldn't have died. When people die as a result of complacency, that is a system failure, any way you look at it. Yes, Comair's crew rest needs to be looked at, but when ATC failed to prevent the only flight at the time from rolling down the wrong runway, ATC failed.

Sorry, but similar arguments can be made for every accident that ever happened....if, if, if there had been 10 pilots in the cockpit, if it hadn't been dark ....

The primary cause of this accident, "any way you shake a stick at it, ", is the pilot's failure to check they were on the correct runway. Yes, contributing factors may well have been ATC manpower, and the fact that it was nighttime, and the fact the runway wasn't long enough....etc. etc.

It could quite as easily have been an uncontrolled airport.

Let's move on, or start another thread.

The US ATC system is in very good shape, and IMO few capacity problems are due to ATC issues ... sure, there are delays due to volume, but most of these are just physical impossibilites - you can only safely control so many aircraft in limited airspace (South Fl, NY), regardless of number of controllers or systems/technology....and the US does this better than any other country in the world.


Jimbo

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting ATCT (Reply 5):
The one problem I agree with is staffing. We are short, but at the same time, they are churning out recruits at the academy as quick as possible.

Very true. In my opinion however, if they really wanted to bring on board quality personnel they needed to keep the initial pay for ATC's higher. We're losing a lot of people to the DOD system or to other career fields because a controller in San Francisco can't live on $40k/year initially. How could anyone with a family?

Quoting ATCT (Reply 5):
It'll take time, and yes there are probably some things that could be done better, but they are working on it. (Im a living witness to that).

As am I.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 7):

Tell that to Comair.



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 8):
That's uncalled for. LEX ATCT didn't line up and roll down the wrong runway.

Yeah, bad example Graphic.

Quoting Echster (Reply 16):
Unfortunately, terminal ATC-wise, the US ATC system is getting closer and closer to maxxing out.

True, but only at certain hub and international airports. LAX, JFK, IAH, ORD all come to mind. They don't have much more room for capacity and other options will have to be considered in the near future.


In my opinion the Open Skies project will not be a make or break thing for the US ATC system. The biggest challenge will be the implementation of VLJ's into the system. These threaten to clog terminal as well as en route capabilities. Just think about infusing 5k VLJ's over the next 10-15 years. It's not hard to see how this can be a major concern.
 
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yowza
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:54 am

While open skies will no doubt put additional pressure on North American ATC the increased volume of flights will likely be staggered and increase incrementally in conjunction with efforts to reduce the strain. Safety must and will come first. The net result being Open Skies* ATC capacity permitting.

This capacity crunch will also provide a mechanism for the US to give its carriers a certain degree of preferential treatment which could fly in the face of the agreement. I'm not saying it's going to happen but with the cutthroat nature of the aviation game it remains a distinct possibility.

YOWza
 
gregarious119
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:05 am

I hypothesize that Open Skies will, in effect, help our the US ATC system by shifting some traffic away from our most crowded area - JFK. It's no secret that the NYC corridor is the busiest sector of airspace in the country.

With LHR being accessible by more US cities, I submit that traffic has the potential to shift away from the NYC area and come from areas that have more ATC capacity to handle these flights.
 
atct
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
DCA or IND center

I didnt know National and Indianapolis Airport had centers? Did you mean ZDC and ZIN? I think so.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
By the way, have you ever flown through a "growing thunderstorm"?

Yes, just a few times. The question is, have you?

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
No, but had the FAA properly staffed the tower with 2 people, the mistake would have been easily caught

And that was the controller on duties fault? Ohh yes, im sorry, we're no longer aloud to call in controllers for overtime to help us out when we're the only controller, aka CIC ("Controller in Charge") so we can actually have a break.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
but when ATC failed to prevent the only flight at the time from rolling down the wrong runway, ATC failed

The controller did nothing wrong by the 7110.65 (which is our rule book we follow, part of the CFR).


Anywho guys, unless you are actually in the system trying to change it, keep your mouth shut. If you want to open your mouth, then get involved. I hate coming on here and reading some of the crap placed on this forum by armchair FAA Administrators and Airline CEO's.

I have full respect for those who actually work in the FAA, Fly for the airlines, or work in some sort of operations that can actually HELP change this system for the better. If you're just some economics major who likes to take pictures of airliners you dont have a clue how they operate (except by that what you learn from Flight Sim) I ask that you remain out of topics where you're ignorance will show.

ATCT

Note: I am not meaning to offend anyone here. I just want to have a good discussion with those who work where the situation actually is. At one time I was 13 on this forum without an hour in my logbook or an hour of working for an airline. I didnt pretend to know what exactly was going on and I always meantioned that I am new to the field. If you would just say "I dont fly, but I would think that this....etc." then that would help also. I really like hearing all opinions, but I dont care to have armchair generals tear the people down who are trying to help the situation. Its a VERY large and complex system that the FAA has. I am but a lowly pawn in the whole scheme of things, but Im still involved in a daily basis. I alone can not change the system, but everyday we all chip away at problems to help streamline the larger system at hand. With all due respect, the FAA does a great job with what we have considering the size of the operation. What we need to do is step back and go "How can we make this better." We do this day-by-day at work one small chip at a time. Hopefully in the future, we'll make the FAA's airspace safer, then after that, make it capable of handling more traffic.

SAFETY is 1st, ORDERLY TRAFFIC is 2nd, & EXPEDITOUS TRAFFIC is 3rd. Alot of people forget that.
Trikes are for kids!
 
P3Orion
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
Did you mean ZDC and ZIN?

Indy Center is ZID.
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
5mileBob
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Safety must and will come first.

I was struck by this statement from YOWza.
This was the way things were done. The old FAA statement was: "Safety at ANY cost." Due to our new business oriented way of doing things, the new mantra is: "Safety at a REASONABLE cost."

By the way, the system runs much better than most think or believe. Trying to put 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag on a daily basis does have its challenges. Adding a few more international flights will not amount to much in the long run.
Still looks like a Ramp Rat
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
ATCT

 beady 

Gotta say pal, you make me proud to work with you....that was harsh but well done from where I sit......okay maybe I will have to come to the tower and train you some!  Smile

Quoting 5mileBob (Reply 25):
By the way, the system runs much better than most think or believe. Trying to put 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag on a daily basis does have its challenges. Adding a few more international flights will not amount to much in the long run.

For sure.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
a defensive Air Traffic Controller

Hey Dart.....seems like you found a few more of us to talk to here!!!!!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1599
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
There is nothing that guarantees having 1 more controller in the tower is going to catch that mistake of rolling down the wrong runway, the chances certainly are increased but unless that controller was standing up looking at that departure taking the wrong runway it could have been just as easily missed.

Very true that it is not guaranteed. However, the simple fact that it COULD have possibly been prevented by having another controller in the tower makes it worth it to have that second controller. For that reason, it is completely unacceptable that there was only one person in the tower that morning. Was it that controller's fault? Absolutely not. I'm positive he didn't make the choice to be in the tower alone that morning. However, the FAA needs to step up to the plate and start staffing the towers properly.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
And that was the controller on duties fault?



Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
The controller did nothing wrong by the 7110.65

I don't think anyone here is blaming THAT CONTROLLER. They're blaming the situation, and the FAA for not staffing the tower properly.
Good goes around!
 
LawnDart
Posts: 867
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RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
Ahhhhh and a defensive pilot also. And your profile offers us what, nothing! At least I have balls enough to put my career in here.

My profile offers nothing because my title has changed so frequently...And I have never made a dime piloting an aircraft (although I am licensed), because I would scare the [email protected] out of anyone foolish enough to fly with me...

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
Why trust you.....you show no reason to trust you!

Well, if you could see me through the internet, you'd see I have a really really sincere look on my face...... laughing .

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
Passing.......please define

Okay, but I want you to know this goes against my better judgement...'cause as you pointed out, I don't have the balls to post my career on my profile:

When I said:

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
In my past work experiences, I have
1) contributed to capacity congestion,
2) analyzed the effect and
3) lived with the results...

I meant that:

1) I was one who over-scheduled flights into already congested airports. Realize, however, that passengers want to fly into those airports at those times. Airlines wouldn't make money flying into Poughkeepsie at 2 AM. Also, airlines are not going to keep an aircraft on the ground for three hours because the ATC system can't handle it right now...(although ATC sometimes forces them to...).

2) My team evaluated operational performance and reported our findings, along with our recommendations, to various parties, include airline clients (upper management) and the Department of Transportation. The number one and number two reasons for delays by airlines are weather and ATC.

Oh, gosh...I feel so exposed now. I can't go on with 3)...just take my word for it: As I said, I have a passing understanding of the ATC system...you wouldn't want me controlling any traffic but I do know what goes on...passingly...as in 61% is not a failing grade...just...passing....anywho...

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
Sorry for picking on your entire post,

Oh, that's okay....I'm just...a complete...idio crying 

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 17):
Respectfully I have to slightly disagree ...

Oh, fine...me, you just slam left and right...this guy you have to "respectfully disagree"!!! I see what's going on here, you don't love me any more, do you? DO YOU???

Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
Did you mean ZDC and ZIN? I think so.



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 24):
Indy Center is ZID.

I used the initials DCA and IND because, apparently, more people are familiar with the city codes than the center codes...like ZID, or ZDC...or ZMA...or ZOA...or ZHU...or...

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
By the way, have you ever flown through a "growing thunderstorm"?



Quoting ATCT (Reply 23):
Yes, just a few times. The question is, have you?

More times than I care to, thanks!

Guys, I made a little statement about the US system being able to handle a few more flights due to EU-US open skies agreement, and I used the term "meltdown" (although just repeating what the thread starter used).

Quoting IADguy73 (Thread starter):
complete meltdown

It was not directed at you personally, and if I offended, my sincere apologies. ashamed 

However, as noted by some other posters on this thread, the ATC system is damn good, but not perfect. Users, the airlines and their passengers, don't think it is. The best way to improve is to admit you've got faults...I admit my faults to my wife every single day...and she says I'm improving!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4120
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 27):
However, the FAA needs to step up to the plate and start staffing the towers properly.

Thank you, please speak loud and clear to that fact!

Cutting things down to the bone and expecting to meet all the safety requirements WE ALL want to see met is going to bite someone right in the shorts, and has already.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 28):
The number one and number two reasons for delays by airlines are weather and ATC.

Ok, but what exactly does 'delays caused by ATC' mean?

I too have been somewhat involved in these kind of studies, and do some of this stuff for a living, and yes I do fly myself, and yes I have been in a tower, and in fact I have worked as a controller (albeit somewhat specialized) .. just in case you ask  Wink

...but, ATC delay?

Does this mean 'delayed' because the ATC system is broke ... i.e. poor systems, poor staff, no staff, etc. etc., OR does it include airport capacity issues, that result in MIT restrictions or FCAs or even ground stops, that are published of course as 'ATC delays' .... forget the fact that you are only going to get N aircraft/hr into JFK, with the required separation, however you look at it.

Presumably any ATC restriction that isn't directly weather related (and note: directly related) is an 'ATC delay' .... of course meaningless unless you know the root cause.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 1):
I'm not sure open skies means more than 20 additional daily flights between the U.S. and Europe, at least initially, so if you think the ATC system is handling the thousands of daily flight currently (domestic and int'l), it shouldn't be a problem.

Righto. It would seem that some people think every airline and their brother are going to start operating flights between the US and EU from day one. I would expect a gradual increase, if much at all. For example, assuming slots become available at LHR, U.S. carriers will shift flights from LGW, not add more, and v.v. I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting on AF to begin PIA-WZW flights anytime soon, so I would not be any more concerned about the system than is already there. Open skies isn't going to be the panacea many expect it to be.
 
LawnDart
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Ok, but what exactly does 'delays caused by ATC' mean?

It's actually labeled "National Aviation System Delay" and refers to a broad set of causes, including airport operations, heavy volume and air traffic control.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:13 am

Yea the "NAS".

Anywho at least we all agree that something needs to be done.

Personally up in NYC, they need to pull some traffic away from that congested area and send some out to ISP or SWF or even TTN/ABE. I believe the chicago area could also use some more flights out of GYY.

I understand airlines dont want to do it, but it will happen eventually. (Ya can only put so many planes onto one runway at a time...and this gets worse when weather hits because we have to extend mileage bewteen planes for safety lol).

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 32):
It's actually labeled "National Aviation System Delay" and refers to a broad set of causes, including airport operations, heavy volume and air traffic control.

There you go .... just what I was after  Smile

Still interested in what this "air traffic control' includes ... but I guess you've made my point for me.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
tercer
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:55 pm

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 3):
The US ATC system is put to the test every single day. And it passes every single day.

Sure, the system works like a charm west of the Mississippi but east of that is another story. In the New York area the meltdown is daily and NATCA has done an incredible job with there PR folks pushing the blame off to the airlines but the fact is that the FAA has squandered billions of tax dollars with over budgeted, dead end projects that end up on the shelf. The airlines, for the most part, have modernized their fleets to the extent that these planes can hit an imaginary point in space within a few seconds and feet of programming, yet the FAA still uses separation standards developed in the 1940's, WHY? In the enroute environment controllers can slow down their airspace using Mile in Trail restrictions with no culpability: ten miles passes back to 20 miles to then turns in to 30 miles ... 30 miles separating each aircraft, this happens on most days! Not to mention re-routes galore, as complex of thunderstorms heads east over the Ohio Valley ATC moves airplanes hundreds of miles north into Canada and re-routes others far south to avoid the area. Open Skies you ask, try calling it very regulated skies instead and guess who eats the cost of all those reroutes? Think the FAA kicks back something to the airlines for the extra cost???

Then there are the terminal issues, before September 11 Newark Airport could handle, on a VFR day, 48-52 arrivals per hour with some holding but now average 38-40 per hour with the same conditions. (Newark has more Ground Delay Programs than any other airport year after year). At LaGuardia the meltdown is even worse for departures as we often see VERY long taxi times always blamed by the FAA on winds and weather (the favorite reason of choice in their plausible deniability tool belt). Yet after the winds calm and the big storm front moves out to sea the controllers still cannot manage to recover and launch airplanes causing the usual LaGuardia gridlock. That gridlock by the way backs up to the arriving aircraft causing massive airborne holding times and diversions and all this while the sun is shinning and the winds are calm on the field. Then when asked you hear words like complexities and dynamic that make everything sound ok, its not!

FAA technology is years behind the airlines and it takes decades to test and approve any new procedures and or technology and in the meantime it is the air carriers that end up taking it in the shorts (not to mention the tax payers). If the FAA went public on Monday morning as a private corporation by 1600 that afternoon they would be declaring chapter 11 that is how mismanaged the organization is run. Now this by all means is not meant to be-little the 15,000 or so line controllers that everyday have to work the scopes and towers, those folks work their asses off and do a great job. No it is meant to say that the NAS as a whole needs some fixing and the start should be with the FAA and not the airlines. Airlines build their schedules around when their customers want to fly and were they want to fly to and from so the concept that they should move their operations elsewhere or run more flights in the middle of the night is not an option. The airlines have spent billions on keeping up with technology through fleet modernizations while moving forward with procedural changes that better streamline their operations. So to lay all this blame and shout "Passenger's Rights" only to the airlines is only misguided blame since it is the inadequate and outdated ATC system that is nine times out of ten the reason flights are delayed.
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
 
P3Orion
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
and in fact I have worked as a controller (albeit somewhat specialized) .. just in case you ask

Okay, I'm asking; where did you control at?
Baker's 7 year, Carpano Antica, Luxardo, Bittercube cherry bark vanilla bitters
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Can US ATC Network Handle EU-US Open Skies?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
The airlines, for the most part, have modernized their fleets to the extent that these planes can hit an imaginary point in space within a few seconds and feet of programming, yet the FAA still uses separation standards developed in the 1940's, WHY? In the enroute environment controllers can slow down their airspace using Mile in Trail restrictions with no culpability: ten miles passes back to 20 miles to then turns in to 30 miles

It doesn't matter whether you can spin your airplane on a dime - if an airport is at capacity, you aren't getting any more planes in there however much computer power you have on board. So you remove the MIT restrictions, then have 100 aircraft holding outside NY for 2 hours .... doesn;t matter how you chop it up.

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
Then there are the terminal issues, before September 11 Newark Airport could handle, on a VFR day, 48-52 arrivals per hour with some holding but now average 38-40 per hour with the same conditions.

Something like 45-52 on 4R or 22L, and 52-55 if also landing on 11. EWR is impacted greatly by the runway configurations of both TEB and LGA ... pure volume and density issues.

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
That gridlock by the way backs up to the arriving aircraft causing massive airborne holding times and diversions and all this while the sun is shinning and the winds are calm on the field.

LOL ... you sound like the very uneducated passenger! HOW can it be weather related??? It's sunny out here!!

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
Airlines build their schedules around when their customers want to fly and were they want to fly to and from so the concept that they should move their operations elsewhere or run more flights in the middle of the night is not an option.

Do you have any idea what you are saying here? So, airlines, you just go ahead and schedule as many flights as you like into as many airports as you like, at any times you like, mostly peak times of course .... won't cause ANY problems with capacity will it??? ...Oh, and I forgot - when you get delayed, it's ATCs fault.

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
If the FAA went public on Monday morning as a private corporation by 1600 that afternoon they would be declaring chapter 11 that is how mismanaged the organization is run.

Fortunately it's not run as a profit hungry business ... but that's another thread  Wink

Oh, yeah, those companies that WERE running as private business and had to make a profit, namely the airlines, did declare Chapter 11.

Quoting Tercer (Reply 35):
since it is the inadequate and outdated ATC system that is nine times out of ten the reason flights are delayed.

Do we have a source and more details for this statistic??

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!

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