QF175
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Kenya Airways & Australia

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:08 am

e-Travel Blackboard

Quote:

With such great plans, Kenya Airways is an airline that will be expected to make huge waves in the future. As Thairu said in reference to the Australian market: “It is showing great progress but there is definitely a need for more to be done.” This is why it is already in talks with the Australian government to gain the rights to fly into Australian airspace. This can be paired with the plans for the carrier to introduce a number of Boeing 787-8 Dreamliners by 2010 to not only replace the Boeing 767s operating on existing routes, but also to operate in other “interesting long-haul routes”.

The article also states the following interesting information:

Quote:
In fact, the exact word that was used by Thairu was “phenomenal”. Only a year after a GSA was introduced into the Australian market, the results have been outstanding. The 25 per cent growth in sales over 2006 have made Australia the third biggest growth market for one of the best and most respected airline companies in Africa.

With regards to KQ in talks to gain rights to fly in Australian airspace, does anyone think there is the possibility of a non-stop Nairobi-Perth (West Coast AU) flight? What about NBO-BKK/SIN/HKG-SYD?

Discussion is welcome..

Rgds
 
AF022
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:29 am

I would be very surprised to see this. How much East/West Africa - Australia traffic is there?
 
GlobalATL
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:51 am

I hope this comes through especially when they join SkyTeam
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Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:16 am

I could see flights working for both Perth and Sydney. This is potentially a great new source of tourism traffic for east Africa, particularly Kenya. If they opened with two or three weekly NBO-PER flights and codeshared with DJ, QF or JQ for flights on to SYD, MEL, BNE, ADE etc, it should be a winner, provided it's marketed well.

People were once doubtful of airlinks between South America and Oceania. There are now two airlines linking Australia (via New Zealand) with Argentina and Chile with flights to/from the latter soon becoming daily. South African (SA) enjoy good loads on their JNB-PER flights and are apparently investigating greater participation in the Australian market. The time should be right for KQ, particularly with the 787 on the way. Open and develop the market with the 767 in anticipation of the airline's next phase.



Good luck KQ, fortune favours the brave.
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:19 am

As a Kenya-bred person, I would love to see a more direct way to get to East Africa from Australia. EK seems to have the lion's share of traffic to there at present - along with Africa north of the equator. If KQ continues to expand, NBO could be a good as DXB as a mini-hub as a distributor from Australia/New Zealand to all of Africa, and on to Europe. Kenya could do a Dubai and invest air transport as a hub and a conduit (i.e. tourism and business) as a national strategy.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting Antskip (Reply 4):
As a Kenya-bred person, I would love to see a more direct way to get to East Africa from Australia. EK seems to have the lion's share of traffic to there at present - along with Africa north of the equator. If KQ continues to expand, NBO could be a good as DXB as a mini-hub as a distributor from Australia/New Zealand to all of Africa, and on to Europe. Kenya could do a Dubai and invest air transport as a hub and a conduit (i.e. tourism and business) as a national strategy.

Great point, but they need to do a hell of a lot to improve the airport which is awfully bad (was last time I was there 3 yrs ago)
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
QF175
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:24 am

If my information serves me correctly, Kenya Airways have orders for 9 787-8's with 4 options. According to Boeing, 787-8s range is 7,650 to 8,200 nautical miles - so they would be able to fly the NBO-SYD fine, would they not? (NBO-SYD is 7547 miles)

The thing that worries me though is ETOPS - barely know anything about this, but NBO-SYD would overfly a massive amount of water in the Indian Ocean. Would this prove to be problematic for KQ?

MotorHussy and Antskip - love your suggestions  Smile Good work..

Be nice to see another exotic airline in PER and/or SYD!

Rgds
 
Gemuser
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
If my information serves me correctly, Kenya Airways have orders for 9 787-8's with 4 options. According to Boeing, 787-8s range is 7,650 to 8,200 nautical miles - so they would be able to fly the NBO-SYD fine, would they not? (NBO-SYD is 7547 miles)

The thing that worries me though is ETOPS - barely know anything about this, but NBO-SYD would overfly a massive amount of water in the Indian Ocean. Would this prove to be problematic for KQ?

Here is a link to the GC mapper that shows ETOPS region:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=n...avy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=120&ETOPS=180

Etops 180 would be required for both PER & SYD, although SYD would still require a small detour. Also I don't know if Oz authorities would be happ with even ETOPS 180 that far south. Nobody else does it.

As for range SYD-NBO is only 6558 nautical miles, well within B787 range.

Gemuser
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Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
Kenya Airways have orders for 9 787-8's with 4 options

These options could be exercised on the 9 series which has a range of up to 15,750 km's, 9,787 mi's or 8,500 nm's. This will easily achieve the NBO-SYD run and more importantly the SYD-NBO run (against the prevailing winds) without too much if any weight penalty.

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
(NBO-SYD is 7547 miles)

Or 12,146 km's or 6,558 nm's which the 787-8 would have no issues with except perhaps on the return where there may be a weight penalty (freight or passenger).

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
The thing that worries me though is ETOPS

KQ have quite a lot of experience flying extended routes over water with twin engined aircraft which bodes well for any ETOPS approval on new craft; their longest over water route currently is NBO-BKK.

The following map displays ETOPS restrictions at 180 and 240 (darker shading) minutes. Even the proposed initial rating of 180 barely affects the NBO-SYD route. Flying around the limitation will still make for a profitable and achievable flight.



Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
Be nice to see another exotic airline in PER and/or SYD!

Great to be able to get to east Africa from this part of the world without going through South Africa or the Middle East.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
VHVXB
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 8):
Great to be able to get to east Africa from this part of the world without going through South Africa or the Middle East.

isn't MK an option as well??
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 9):
isn't MK an option as well??

Good point, but to get to NBO you've still got to go via Mauritius (MRU) on one of the following routes to PER or SYD & MEL (not to mention making connections from other points). And are there any direct connections though from MRU to NBO from Oz?



Regards
MH

[Edited 2007-04-17 04:34:11]
come visit the south pacific
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
The thing that worries me though is ETOPS - barely know anything about this, but NBO-SYD would overfly a massive amount of water in the Indian Ocean. Would this prove to be problematic for KQ?

Agree. It would be good to know the ETOPS status in the mid-Indian Ocean, for PER-NBO direct flights on twins.

The Cocos Islands and Mauritius used to be the old route PER-NBO, and seem to the untutored eye to provide good exits for PER-NBO. Using Google-Earth, I find that PER-NBO direct is around 9,000 K, PER-MRU is around 6,000 K, MRU-MRU is 3,000K, PER -CCK 3,000K, CKK-MRU around 5,000 K. There seems to me to be a half hour or so of the PER-NBO route where the flight would be at its most vulnerable - about 2,500 K from either MRU or CKK. Is that too tough for twins under ETOPS?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:35 am

Quoting Antskip (Reply 11):
Agree. It would be good to know the ETOPS status in the mid-Indian Ocean, for PER-NBO direct flights on twins.

Please see Reply 8.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
Viscount724
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 8):
Flying around the limitation will still make for a profitable and achievable flight.

I doubt there's much high-yield business traffic between Australia and Kenya (or Africa in total apart from South Africa). That would make profitability questionable. And it's unlikely demand would justify more than a couple of flights a week, not very competitive with more frequent connections on EK/QR etc., and inefficient use of crews due to the long layovers.

The Australia-South Africa market must be far bigger than Kenya (or the rest of Africa combined) but even JNB only has 5 SA nonstops a week and only from PER. Some years ago SYD also had direct flights to JNB (with a stop at PER) and both QF and SA operated if memory correct. QF also operated to Harare at one time with 747SPs. I believe they served HRE because they lacked traffic rights to JNB at the time, although most passengers connected at HRE to/from South Africa.
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 12):
Please see Reply 8

Thanks, MotorHussy! (smile). I spent a long time trying to figure the distances out - meanwhile I didn't check the stream of very informative messages posted (including your very fine one) before sending mine, which had become redundant, of course. Many thanks!
 
sparklehorse12
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
I doubt there's much high-yield business traffic between Australia and Kenya (or Africa in total apart from South Africa). That would make profitability questionable. And it's unlikely demand would justify more than a couple of flights a week, not very competitive with more frequent connections on EK/QR etc., and inefficient use of crews due to the long layovers.

The Australia-South Africa market must be far bigger than Kenya (or the rest of Africa combined) but even JNB only has 5 SA nonstops a week and only from PER. Some years ago SYD also had direct flights to JNB (with a stop at PER) and both QF and SA operated if memory correct. QF also operated to Harare at one time with 747SPs. I believe they served HRE because they lacked traffic rights to JNB at the time, although most passengers connected at HRE to/from South Africa.

There is quite a large amount of business between W.A and Africa mainly in mining and engineering(of course). Maybe KQ are banking on some business travellers. There is quite a large Kenyan/African population in MEL and BNE maybe they are thinking of that as well. I say bring it on!
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jupiter2
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:19 pm

Viscount724,

QF also have 5 744's a week to JNB from SYD, SAA/QF code share on each others services.

As 6th Freedom mentioned, bring them on, there is an increasing population of ethnic African's in Australia, large tourism potential, as well as increasing business links between the region and Australia, all of which combined could justify a several times a week service.

As well this could be an alternative route to Europe, I would love a stop over in Kenya and the chance of going to a game park, than Dubai or the more traditional stopovers in Asia.

RL
 
Sydscott
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The Australia-South Africa market must be far bigger than Kenya (or the rest of Africa combined) but even JNB only has 5 SA nonstops a week and only from PER

Incorrect. Qantas flies from Sydney to Johannesburg 5 times per week and they withdrew from the PER-JNB sector in favour of a codeshare with South African. South African fly between PER and JNB 4 times per week at the moment. So that's a total of 9 non-stops per week.

I think a couple of services per week from NBO to either Perth and/or Sydney would do wonders to develop the market to Australia from Central and Eastern Africa considering SA and Emirates/Gulf Air at the moment have the best, if somewhat indirect, connections to that region.
 
VHVXB
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 10):
And are there any direct connections though from MRU to NBO from Oz?

Connections are at very odds time. They only seem to cater for flights to JNB CPT and DUR with same day arrival into MRU
 
787kq
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 5):
Great point, but they need to do a hell of a lot to improve the airport which is awfully bad (was last time I was there 3 yrs ago)

The airport is undergoing renovations now. It has been a mess. Kenya Airways and the airport authority know this and have worked to get the upgrade off the ground.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
I doubt there's much high-yield business traffic between Australia and Kenya (or Africa in total apart from South Africa). That would make profitability questionable. And it's unlikely demand would justify more than a couple of flights a week, not very competitive with more frequent connections on EK/QR etc., and inefficient use of crews due to the long layovers.

Looking at Emirates successful mass market strategy will inform you that while business traffic is great, its not the only way to make a profit. Offer great service or fill a missing gap and pack them in and your economy yields will be good. There are many ways to skin a cat.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:17 pm

I'm all for it! (see my sig)

Certainly a new way to fly to Europe and a new tourist market. The people who travel to East Africa on safari are usually quite wealthy anyway - not always, but the lodges are expensive places...

I can see a big UN and World Vision and Red Cross contracts if this flight goes ahead...
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Badge
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:28 pm

Good for Kenya, they are one of the unsung great airlines out there, I can't imagine where they will be in 10 years time.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 19):
There are many ways to skin a cat.

Great saying.  bigthumbsup 

I think KQ is in the verge of becoming the top carrier in Africa, ahead of ET and SAA. Another 15 years and it very well might be. Think about how far they have come since they dumped the busses (and this is not flamebait)
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
AF022
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Badge (Reply 21):
I think KQ is in the verge of becoming the top carrier in Africa, ahead of ET and SAA. Another 15 years and it very well might be. Think about how far they have come since they dumped the busses (and this is not flamebait)

I think the passenger experience at KQ is bested only by SAA. Management, however, is a different story, as SAA management seems to be bumbling.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The Australia-South Africa market must be far bigger than Kenya (or the rest of Africa combined) but even JNB only has 5 SA nonstops a week and only from PER

Incorrect. Qantas flies from Sydney to Johannesburg 5 times per week and they withdrew from the PER-JNB sector in favour of a codeshare with South African. South African fly between PER and JNB 4 times per week at the moment. So that's a total of 9 non-stops per week.

Sorry, but I can only find 5 SA-operated A340 flights weekly PER-JNB. QF codeshares on those flights but they do not operate their own aircraft. You can hardly count that as more than 5 weekly nonstops. If you counted all the codeshare flight numbers, on some sectors you would have to multiply the number of flights by 4 or 5. It is only meaningful to look at the total capacity on the actual aircraft operating. The airline's code that appears on the ticket is relatively meaningless. You can't sell the same seat twice.

[Edited 2007-04-17 18:03:20]
 
Emirates029
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 am

Do you think they will be successful if they timed the Australia-Kenya flights to arrive in Nairobi when the airlines' flights to Europe were departing? In other words, another way of flying the Kangaroo route?
Good luck to them, I've flown the airline before and they definitely have a lot going for them.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 25):
Do you think they will be successful if they timed the Australia-Kenya flights to arrive in Nairobi when the airlines' flights to Europe were departing? In other words, another way of flying the Kangaroo route?

That sounds like a good way to dilute their yield. To be competitive with the couple of dozen carriers operating beween Australia and Europe via their many hubs, KQ would probably have to charge about the same fares all the way to Europe as they could charge for passengers only going to NBO. If they made through traffic to Europe a priority and risked displacing local traffic on the separate sectors they would risk serious revenue dilution. As filler traffic during off-season periods it would be one way to generate some additional revenue. SA also sells Australia-Europe via JNB.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Sorry, but I can only find 5 SA-operated A340 flights weekly PER-JNB. QF codeshares on those flights but they do not operate their own aircraft.

Correct. QF operates the SYD-JNB flights with their own metal though and codeshares here as well with SA.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
I doubt there's much high-yield business traffic between Australia and Kenya (or Africa in total apart from South Africa).

Not huge amounts no, but part of KQ's charter is to get tourists to Kenya. Overall though, I think you're drastically underestimating the market.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
Viscount724
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 27):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Sorry, but I can only find 5 SA-operated A340 flights weekly PER-JNB. QF codeshares on those flights but they do not operate their own aircraft.

Correct. QF operates the SYD-JNB flights with their own metal though and codeshares here as well with SA.

Sorry, I think you mean that QF operates the SYD-PER flights (not SYD-JNB) with their own metal. Only SA operates the PER-JNB sector.using A340-200s according to current schedules. QF codeshare on PER-JNB and SA codeshares on SYD-PER.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
Sorry, I think you mean that QF operates the SYD-PER flights (not SYD-JNB) with their own metal.

No! How can I make this clearer?

- SA operate the PER-JNB sector with A342's.
- QF operate the SYD-JNB sector with 744's.

They each codeshare with each other. The market is larger than your assumption with 9 non-stops between Australia and Africa weekly.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
bullpitt
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:54 am

I have flown JNB-SYD several times and loads have allways been very high. I would not be suprised if they upgrade the route to daily flights.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
AF022
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:07 am

Will the altitude at NBO prevent KQ operating nonstop?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 29):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
Sorry, I think you mean that QF operates the SYD-PER flights (not SYD-JNB) with their own metal.

No! How can I make this clearer?

- SA operate the PER-JNB sector with A342's.
- QF operate the SYD-JNB sector with 744's.

They each codeshare with each other. The market is larger than your assumption with 9 non-stops between Australia and Africa weekly.

Sorry for the confusion. All clear now. A schedule source I checked didn't seem to show the QF SYD-JNB flights but I was looking at a day of the week when QF don't operate and it only showed the codeshare connections via PER.
 
Ekfan
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:39 am

Nairobi airport is beyond a disaster. For KQ to improve, the airport needs drastic action. I have seen plans but no tangible improvements.
 
787kq
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting EKfan (Reply 33):
Nairobi airport is beyond a disaster. For KQ to improve, the airport needs drastic action. I have seen plans but no tangible improvements.

Work began several months ago. The real question is when will it be finished. I will upload a photo of the rendering I saw on a billboard when I get a chance.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 31):
Will the altitude at NBO prevent KQ operating nonstop?

Good question. NBO's 5,500 ft/1,680 m above sea level. Don't know the range impact on a 787-8 or 787-9 it would have. Anyone?

Overall, looks like Kenya is planning a lot of new activity based around the opening of the new NBO facilities and the arrival of the 787.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 6):
The thing that worries me though is ETOPS - barely know anything about this, but NBO-SYD would overfly a massive amount of water in the Indian Ocean. Would this prove to be problematic for KQ?

Singapore A/L does it 20 times a week with nonstop from Sin-Jnb and Sin-Cpt all over the vast Indian Ocean, I doubt KQ will have any issues.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 31):
Will the altitude at NBO prevent KQ operating nonstop?

doubt it...you'd assume they bought the a/c they did with this in mind?!

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 30):
I have flown JNB-SYD several times and loads have allways been very high. I would not be suprised if they upgrade the route to daily flights.

correct...Australia, in particular Sydney & Perth, have very large South African populations and the flights ex Perth & Sydney are usually pretty heavily packed. I took SQ back in january to JNB and the flight was 100% full and quite a few of those passengers were from Australia.

[Edited 2007-04-19 03:51:44]
 
Gemuser
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 36):
Singapore A/L does it 20 times a week with nonstop from Sin-Jnb and Sin-Cpt all over the vast Indian Ocean, I doubt KQ will have any issues.

IMHO an unwarranted assumption! SQ gets nowhere as far south as KQ would and its most southern point is between the African mainland and Madagascar. KQ on the other hand will have its most southern point in the very empty SE quadrant of the Indian Ocean.

See: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=s...&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180

Everybody has ignored it BUT I do think that the Oz authorities WILL have a problem with KQ (& anybody else) flying twins that far south EVEN if they have ETOPS 180 rating. No body flies twins over oceans that far south. EVERYBODY else flies B747s & A340s on such routes. In aviation being the first to do anything is a problem!

Gemuser
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AF022
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 36):
doubt it...you'd assume they bought the a/c they did with this in mind?!

Yes, but I doubt KQ bought the 787 with SYD in mind. SYD is about 5000km further from KQ's furthest nonstop destination (BKK).
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 37):

IMHO an unwarranted assumption! SQ gets nowhere as far south as KQ would and its most southern point is between the African mainland and Madagascar. KQ on the other hand will have its most southern point in the very empty SE quadrant of the Indian Ocean.

rubbish its unwarranted...look at the vast amount of open water between West Indonesia and Cape Town for a start, if it was engine out somewhere in the middle of that space they'd still be atleast 3.5-4hrs away from land. Just because GCM suggests that is the best route to fly it doesn't mean an airline will fly it.

when we flew CPT-SIN nonstop it took us nearly 3hrs to fly away from the African mainland, so, your GCM map is meaningless in this case and not even close to accurate...we actually flew as far north as Mozambique and exited the mainland to the NE.

Quoting AF022 (Reply 38):
Yes, but I doubt KQ bought the 787 with SYD in mind. SYD is about 5000km further from KQ's furthest nonstop destination (BKK).

you mean to tell me they buy a next generation a/c without route expansion in mind?

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 37):
Everybody has ignored it BUT I do think that the Oz authorities WILL have a problem with KQ (& anybody else) flying twins that far south EVEN if they have ETOPS 180 rating.

you assume that they will fly that far south..it's a stupid assumption to begin with!
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:23 pm

Having done the NZ-EastAfrica route on MH/KQ and EK, I would LOVE to see direct routes to Oz. KQ are a fantastic little airline. And they would probably be the fastest connection to central and western africa, even offering an alternative routing to the UK, Amsterdam and Paris.

And while it would likely be 99% tourist traffic, I'd still see it as being potentially profitable. IT would open up the amazing east African region to a whole new customer base.
 
The Coachman
Posts: 1193
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:57 pm

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 37):
Everybody has ignored it BUT I do think that the Oz authorities WILL have a problem with KQ (& anybody else) flying twins that far south EVEN if they have ETOPS 180 rating. No body flies twins over oceans that far south. EVERYBODY else flies B747s & A340s on such routes. In aviation being the first to do anything is a problem!


Obviously you're unfamiliar with the routing that EK uses DXB-SYD. Very often it will go very far south and end up flying about 500km south of PER in order to get the Roaring Forties tailwinds. Altitude IMO will not be a huge issue with the winds being so favourable.
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
787kq
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 37):
Everybody has ignored it BUT I do think that the Oz authorities WILL have a problem with KQ (& anybody else) flying twins that far south EVEN if they have ETOPS 180 rating. No body flies twins over oceans that far south. EVERYBODY else flies B747s & A340s on such routes. In aviation being the first to do anything is a problem!

See photos of Air Mauritius' 767's in Perth and Melbourne.
https://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...hoto_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=0468669

https://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...=4&prev_id=0454191&next_id=0187438

Flying twins over that area is not that odd.
 
AF022
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 39):
you mean to tell me they buy a next generation a/c without route expansion in mind?

Of course they plan to expand, but SYD is not just a few hundred KM further than BKK. CAN, possibly, but SYD? I don't see it happening.
 
787kq
Posts: 379
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:02 am

A news story about Nairobi's airport upgrade that includes a model of the redone terminal. Not particularly good news, but in addition to the facts, Kenyan newspapers tend to overdramatize things.

http://bdafrica.com/index.php?option...ntent&task=view&id=683&Itemid=3052
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 43):
Of course they plan to expand, but SYD is not just a few hundred KM further than BKK. CAN, possibly, but SYD? I don't see it happening.

What a very odd assumption. SYD may be further away, but is exactly the kind of leg that the 787 is designed to make feasible and perform profitably. Point to point travel where previously it wasn't practicable.

Sydney is the largest city in Australia and being on the nation's eastern seaboard, is also fed by surrounding areas including the rest of New South Wales (6.8 million people), the states of Victoria (5.1 million) and Queensland (4 million) and not to mention the country of New Zealand (4 million). These are all quite well populated areas in affluent countries with exactly the kinds of tourists and business people Kenya are looking for; why don't you see this happening? And, Kenya, Australia and New Zealand all have cultural affinities as members of the British Commonwealth.

Also, CAN (Guangzhou formerly Canton)? Surely PVG or PEK first? Or are you meaning Canada? Surely not Canberra!

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
AF022
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 45):
Also, CAN (Guangzhou formerly Canton)? Surely PVG or PEK first? Or are you meaning Canada? Surely not Canberra!

KQ already tried and failed at PVG. Guangzhou would probably come nonstop before SYD was even fantasized about, especially with KQ now facing competition on the DXB-CAN leg.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3664
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting AF022 (Reply 46):
KQ already tried and failed at PVG. Guangzhou would probably come nonstop before SYD was even fantasized about, especially with KQ now facing competition on the DXB-CAN leg.

If you believe that, then you know something the rest of the world doesn't about Guangzhou's outbound tourist market when compared to PVG and SYD. If they chose not to persist with Shanghai, why would they attempt CAN which is so close to HKG and a less affluent and populace hub than PVG?

I believe you severely underestimate the appeal of the Australasian market to Kenya and have clearly not read the article which this thread refers to and is based on - KQ's Far-East Area Manager is excited about the "phenomenal" growth of the Australian market the third largest growth rate overall (all markets) saying nothing about CAN or China etc (which is also in his area of responsibility).

You talk about a SYD fantasy for KQ while the airline is organising landing rights on that continent.

MH
come visit the south pacific
 
RoyalAtlantis
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 45):
What a very odd assumption. SYD may be further away, but is exactly the kind of leg that the 787 is designed to make feasible and perform profitably. Point to point travel where previously it wasn't practicable.

agreed 101%


Also - how about the possibility of grabbing some AMS-OZ, LHR-OZ passengers who want to visit Kenya on the way and/or fly business class at a reduced cost. I wonder what the flight times would be in comparison to SYD-BKK-LHR vs. SYD-NBO-LHR or AMS. Kind of an interesting option eh?
 
AF022
Posts: 1850
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: Kenya Airways & Australia

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 47):
If you believe that, then you know something the rest of the world doesn't about Guangzhou's outbound tourist market when compared to PVG and SYD. If they chose not to persist with Shanghai, why would they attempt CAN which is so close to HKG and a less affluent and populace hub than PVG?

KQ already flies to CAN, and they are doing phenomenally well.

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