Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
SANFan
Topic Author
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 44):
Looking at the UA gates in SAN, I can see that two SFO flights RON here and take up two overnight gates. Maybe it's time to run an hourly shuttle between SAN-SFO using UA Exp out of the Lindbergh Commuter terminal with the CR7 (can't believe I'm even suggesting this).

Yes, UA actually has 7 RON a/c every night (2 SFO, 2 DEN, 2 ORD & 1 IAD) thru their 5 gates between 6:20 and 8:30am, and, I agree, I can't believe you suggested a CR7 shuttle to SFO!  Wink

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 44):
Or...if the YVR flight can leave at 6:30am and the YYZ flight later at 8:00am, then AC could conceivably use the same gate by keeping one RON at the hardstand and towing it over.

A very similar situation to gate 28 and its F9 RON (departs at 6:20am) followed by the new YX RON (starting 5/01) departure at 7:45am, which is then followed by F9's 8:15am first arrival from DEN.

Even without your "drastic" suggestion '990, I would think something could be worked out IF AC would like to RON that 319 of theirs!

bb
 
User avatar
SANFan
Topic Author
Posts: 5431
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 49):
As a side note, United is consistently running 11 flights every weekday between SAN and SFO. That's up from 9-10 last year.

Very true. Don't s'pose that has anything to do with AS (already in the market as of last Fall), and WN coming soon, and Virgin (maybe), and who-knows-who-else (cou-gh9-cough?)... United has had the route all to themselves since early 2001 (when WN pulled out) and I would expect them to finally show some interest in it!

bb
 
User avatar
Coronado990
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:17 am

This is how UA morning gate usage looks. At least from what I can tell. Correct me if I am wrong...

GATE 11: 6:17am Dept to DEN UA740. Then accepts arrival from DEN at 9:48am.

GATE 12: 7:05am Dept to DEN UA970. Then handles RON from hardstand, departs for ORD at 8:24am.

GATE 13: 6:20am Dept to ORD UA242. The accepts arrival from SFO at 7:28am.

GATE 14: 6:20am Dept to SFO UA 1212. Then handles RON from hardstand ,departs for IAD at 8:05am.

GATE 15: 7:17am Dept to SFO UA 458. Then accepts arrival from SFO at 8:34am.

If I have this right, GATE 11 has no activity from 6:17am until 9:48am. Plenty of time to tow something from a hardstand and depart around the 8:00am area. Anybody know if Gate 11 has something in between those times?
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 50):
Yes, UA actually has 7 RON a/c every night (2 SFO, 2 DEN, 2 ORD & 1 IAD) thru their 5 gates between 6:20 and 8:30am

In the summer, UA has as many as 9 RONs. Right now it looks like UA is loaning two of its remote overnight spots to Aloha and someone else. They'll take those back when they need them. I'm sure they'd be happy to let AC use one if AC would accept a departure time after 8:30 am.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 51):
Very true. Don't s'pose that has anything to do with AS (already in the market as of last Fall), and WN coming soon

No, it's the demand. UAs flights were packed before and after Alaska entered the market. Tons of Asia connections in the morning and Europeans later along with the regular O & D and domestic connections. UA is almost running hourly flights to SFO now....often with 757s. CRJs couldn't handle the loads, luggage and freight.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 48):
Why don't you ask the Convention Center Corporation and the cruise ship industry this question? The convention center uses the airport's proximity in its sales pitches.

I think TRVLR is right, just look at QUALCOMM. The only thing keeping QUALCOMM here is FAMILY TIES, once QUALCOMM gets management that is not tied to the Jacobs family - anyones guess where they might move. Nobody thought Gateway would move either, yet they did.

Qualcomm opposed the Miramar site, and I don't think they cared one way or the other if SAN was adequate or not with respect to international flights.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060729/news_7m29bell.html

The cruise ships are in San Diego because of the great Harbor and Great City, and it sounds like they favor the airport where it is now and International flights are not a big deal for them. Gateway moved because of the merger with E-Machines. E-machines used a fraction of the employees that Gateway did and essentially E-machines took over the management of the company and moved to their HQ's in Orange County. If SAN becomes slot restricted and the airlines start pushing up ticket prices I could see that starting to hurt the tourist industry of the city.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 52):
If I have this right, GATE 11 has no activity from 6:17am until 9:48am. Plenty of time to tow something from a hardstand and depart around the 8:00am area. Anybody know if Gate 11 has something in between those times?

As frequent as ATC flow control is to SFO and ORD, I bet UA likes keeping a gate in reserve should a ground stop be in effect. No one likes (ask JetBlue) keeping passengers on airplanes unless they absolutely have to. And why burn fuel holding remotely for lengthy delays when you can keep the aircraft parked at the gate. There are many mornings when UA uses Gate 11 for unscheduled reasons.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 54):
Qualcomm opposed the Miramar site, and I don't think they cared one way or the other if SAN was adequate or not with respect to international flights.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont....html

I don't think it's fair to assume that. The uncertainty and subsequent inadequacy of the measure presented to voters last November scared the company into taking the most defensive position possible on the issue, especially with respect to the military. I know from firsthand experience that Qualcomm's unofficial reaction to the measure was one of puzzlement and fear, which contributed to a certain amount of intransigence on their part.

If you look at some of the studies done by the Port Commission and nascent airport authority long before 2006, you'll find that an overwhelming desire for enhanced air service among major non-government employers in the San Diego region.
 
DCAYOW
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:24 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 54):
Qualcomm opposed the Miramar site

My statement had nothing to do with Prop A. Yes, QUALCOMM opposed Miramar under the leadership of Jacobs. Like all fortune 500 companies, a day will come when QUALCOMM will be run by someone from New York, Chicago or the Bay Area who will not be used to having their staff spend countless hours of time (productivity) waiting on I-5 or double-connecting through hubs and this executive will make the decision that all its uncompetitive to be based in San Diego.
Retorne ao céu...
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
As for the topic, as a native San Diego, the lack of international service to my convenient local airport does not bother me in the least. San Diegans are used to one and two stop service to points on the globe. No big deal. If a business or individual wants a city with extensive air serve then, please, by all means move. We're too crowded as a region already. So if AC and or Jazz suspends service, we'll go back to one stop service to YYZ and YVR. No big deal. Most people travelling Canada-San Diego aren't taking the non-stops now anyway.

The availability of long haul International Service causes a shift in domestic capacity from the network carriers to the International flight which produces a net increase in domestic capacity across the system without adding new domestic operations, a condition that would enhance San Diego's capacity (if it had a real runway). Without this, your ability to make your "one or two" stops in terms of cost will be deminished. Air service has little to do with "crowding" in San Diego. 97% of your pax are O&D and about 80% are transient, meaninging they visit, fuel your economy, then leave. If this cost increases, you get empty hotels and a negative economy. While you may enjoy your head in the sand at the local beach dreaming of days long gone, perhaps you should consider your own ability to survive in San Diego without it's economy. If anything, your lack of efficient development has led to extensive commuting, high housing costs and of course the crowding you speak of in the form of.... TRAFFIC.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 54):
Qualcomm opposed the Miramar site, and I don't think they cared one way or the other if SAN was adequate or not with respect to international flights.

Qualcomm opposed the project because they didn't like how the Joint-Use arrangement impacted military operations over their facilities that they want to expand. This was a peeing contest for Jacobs over land use. Jacobs was too damn stupid to see the larger picture of a vote passing and the military simply leaving which would have lead to a smaller footprint airport that woudln't have affected his plans. Amazing people like this rise to leadership in any form.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 54):
The cruise ships are in San Diego because of the great Harbor and Great City, and it sounds like they favor the airport where it is now and International flights are not a big deal for them.

The increase in cruise ships will be the death of Lindbergh. They have no preference, but they do dump 5,000 passengers a pop on Lindbergh - do the math. The cruise ships are in San Diego because LA and Long Beach are out of capacity. San Diego doesn't have a great harbor, and as a native, I can say it's never been a great city either. The government, and people like Bicoastal who don't understand that Lindbergh's coffin was bult in 1962 when the city approved development off the ends of the runway, always show a complete lack of vision.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 54):
If SAN becomes slot restricted and the airlines start pushing up ticket prices I could see that starting to hurt the tourist industry of the city.

You can't slot restrict Lindbergh. It's a sole proprietorship airport with no suitable airport to divert a 60% fleet mix making it against Federal Law to do so. The airlines will accept the La Guardia type delays and pass on the cost to passengers in the form of higher fares.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 53):
Right now it looks like UA is loaning two of its remote overnight spots to Aloha and someone else.

SAN is a common use, preferential leasehold facility. UA isn't loaning anyone anything. All RON positions are controlled by the airport and administrated by commitee.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 38):
And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here.

Now apply that to a lack of aviation capacity.

Because...

This won't happen to air fares, those who can afford will fly and no-one else:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 38):
current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to happen to local economy in years.



Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 38):
Buy now, if you can.

Fly now... While you can.

[Edited 2007-04-19 09:45:26]
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6194
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 21):
You can route yourself via LAX (god forbid - terminal 8 to TBIT!!)

There is one thing that people forget about LAX, its not really set up to be a connection point even though airlines try to use it as one. LAX is horrible to make connections in. LAX has WAY TOO MANY airlines and far too little room (for growth as well). You have many airlines fighting over around 120 gates. No way in good shape. LAX is as busy as it is and sees the amount of international traffic it does for one reason: The huge local market. The O&D is enourmous here, but its not connection friendly. LAX is great for us who live here in Los Angeles because we dont have to connect here. LAX exists to serve the local market not connections whereas (for example) an airport like ATL is the other way around.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 25):
I agree with many that nearby-LA is a big part of the picture

Thats it in a nutshell. San Deigo is a big city. If it were in the middle of Kansas with no other big cities around, you can bet it would have much more international service. San Deigo unfortunately will always be overshadowed by Los Angeles simply because LA is so much larger.

SAN also faces the same problem that LAX faces: No room to grow. Lets face it: people (for whatever reason) want to live here in Southern California. They come in large numbers and have built up everything there is to build up. Now we cant expand anything.

SAN is definately worthy of more international traffic than it gets. Its just a matter of time before another international carrier steps up to the plate.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 59):
San Deigo unfortunately will always be overshadowed by Los Angeles simply because LA is so much larger.

Until LAX hits its capacity crunch in 2015 and tells San Diego to pound sand.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 59):
SAN is definately worthy of more international traffic than it gets. Its just a matter of time before another international carrier steps up to the plate.

SAN needs a longer runway before International Service is a potentil reality. No one is goign to "step up to the plate" and serve an airport that carries with it a 30,000 to 70,000 pound payload penalty.
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 38):
The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to happen to local economy in years. Buy now, if you can.

I don't think anybody disagrees that housing prices are the biggest problem here. The problem is, as NIMBY morphs into BANANA (build almost nothing anywhere near anything) and even NOPE (nowhere on planet earth), anything that could be done to mitigate the effects of a high median housing price is automatically a non-starter.

The Bay Area is lucky to have sufficient airport capacity to manage a cyclical economy...how will San Diego's upswing come about when airport capacity becomes a primary factor in the downturn, and there's no replacement in sight?
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 59):
Thats it in a nutshell. San Deigo is a big city. If it were in the middle of Kansas with no other big cities around, you can bet it would have much more international service. San Deigo unfortunately will always be overshadowed by Los Angeles simply because LA is so much larger.

Just curious, are you dyslexic? It's spelled San Diego.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6194
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 62):
Just curious, are you dyslexic?

haha, actually I am.  Wink Not to mention, I typed it at about 2am last night after being awake for 20 hours.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
hockey55dude
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:48 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:41 pm

When I flew SAN-YYZ the A319 was packed. It was in the summer though.
 
RoyalAtlantis
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:02 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 47):
Next week there will be a thread highlighting that YYZ-SAN is AC's most profitable route!!

Perhaps it's because AC's fares are SO HIGH that any leisure traveler can't afford them. AC is being too greedy...if they offered lower fares, they'd fill those planes - from YVR for sure.

This is my choice to SAN: http://www.iflywestern.com/where.htm
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting RoyalAtlantis (Reply 65):
This is my choice to SAN: http://www.iflywestern.com/where.htm

You realize they don't fly there anymore, or anywhere for that matter.
 
RoyalAtlantis
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:02 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 66):
Quoting RoyalAtlantis (Reply 65):
This is my choice to SAN: http://www.iflywestern.com/where.htm

You realize they don't fly there anymore, or anywhere for that matter.

Actually - I didn't realize that. Haven't kept up after the first flight....that's too bad. It was by far a less expensive option.
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:28 pm

Quoting RoyalAtlantis (Reply 67):

Actually - I didn't realize that. Haven't kept up after the first flight....that's too bad. It was by far a less expensive option.

Yeah, they lasted about 3 weeks. I managed to get one shot of them at SAN before they went under, and Matt Lyons was a little luckier than I by getting the only A.net shot of them.

My own shot isn't even close to suitable for A.net... way overexposed, but that's another story. Either way, they should've lasted, I thought it was real cool to see the Western name flying again!
Scotty doesn't know...
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting RoyalAtlantis (Reply 67):
It was by far a less expensive option.

Which is probably why they are no longer in operation.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
FLYACYYZ
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:13 am

AC//77W Being Fast-tracked Into Revenue Service

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am

Quoting RoyalAtlantis (Reply 65):
Perhaps it's because AC's fares are SO HIGH that any leisure traveler can't afford them. AC is being too greedy...if they offered lower fares, they'd fill those planes - from YVR for sure.

AC has had three years of record load factors in the 80% plus range. Filling aircraft is something AC has absolutely no problem doing. The vast majority of flights I operate are dispatched at 100% capacity. AC's fares are totally comparable with other carriers on competitive runs. It's the taxes that are the killer. Case in point---that sweet little airfare that Westjet is offering between YYZ-YOW/YUL. Base fare is $29.00 add the tax--it's $75.97.
Above and Beyond

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos