EUROBUS
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:36 am

Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:15 pm

Hello to all,

Latest news seems to suggest an eventual takeover of IB on behalf of LH and Marsans Group, a major Spanish tour-operator with extensive experience in the aviation industry, which would grant an effective political lobby and social approval if the operation goes through.

My doubts are the following: apart from not understanding why such a lucrative and profitable company like Iberia (am I being a bit ironic?) is up for sale, I wonder how LH-IB would solve the OneWorld-Star Alliance issue. Do you think IB will be left to operate with 'complete' independence from LH or, on the other hand, do you see important moves within the two major alliances.

Maybe I might be able to gain miles on every second airline ...or maybe not.

Have a nice weekend.


EUROBUS
Who says airports are boring places?!
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3022
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:49 pm

I know that Spanair will not be very happy to have IB in star alliance. But, at the same time, will oneworld members be happy to have IB in the alliance if it became a subsidary of LH. This can be a hard problem to solve....

-CXfirst
 
carledwards
Posts: 215
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting EUROBUS (Thread starter):
My doubts are the following: apart from not understanding why such a lucrative and profitable company like Iberia (am I being a bit ironic?) is up for sale, I wonder how LH-IB would solve the OneWorld-Star Alliance issue. Do you think IB will be left to operate with 'complete' independence from LH or, on the other hand, do you see important moves within the two major alliances.

im very sceptical about this whole takeover bid to be honest. I do not see that the Spanish government would let LH take them over, i think they will put big blocks in the way, especially considering Spanair is also in Star Alliance, although this issue is not enough to stop the takeover, as there are a few other countries and regions with more than one star alliance member.

The other big issue here, is if LH did purchase Iberia, it would have to be in a partnership with a Spanish company as they would otherwise be not allowed to operate the Latin American routes. This is what Willie Walsh said put BA off the purchase. However I to be honest I think BA would be absolutely foolish to let LH purchase Iberia, as they are such an important oneworld ally. If Willie Walsh and his cronies allowed that to happen, then we may as well say goodbye to BA, as they will not last as one of the future EU supercarriers, as the future of aviation is rumoured to be going large.
Extraordinary World
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting Carledwards (Reply 2):

LH will not take over IB if they aren´t sure that they´ll make profit ...
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
bullpitt
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:57 pm

EUROBUS can you explain

Quoting EUROBUS (Thread starter):
USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP MEMBERSSUGGEST DELETIONSELECTED TEXT QUOTED

EUROBUS From Spain, joined Nov 2004, 87 posts, RR: 0

IB has made a profit for the last 8 yrs during some of the most difficlult years of Civil Aviation, I agree profits have not been spectacular but they have been good and the future looks even better. Your coments show a great ignorance in this field or are you just another IB basher?

Un Saludo Nando
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:11 pm

This runs on and on.

One source quotes that LH are in the driving seat; another says its not true.
Then we get the "BA owns 10% and has the option for another 30%"

After a few days the whole thing starts again

The Spanish media seem to be having a field day with this one.
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:44 pm

What is so special about Iberia? Please help me understand the thought process behind why LH wants IB? Its because of what...location in the world? fleet? oneworld?

[Edited 2007-04-21 16:50:44]
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
bullpitt
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:50 pm

well for one thing IB is leader in flights to South America from Europe so who ever keeps IB holds the key to South America.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 7):
well for one thing IB is leader in flights to South America from Europe so who ever keeps IB holds the key to South America.

Gottcha. Much appreciated!

http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g....0e119f566b5445bda0d4a195d21061ca/
Researched Iberia's website and I shall apologize for my 1970/80s skewed thoughts about what Iberia has become to current day.

[Edited 2007-04-21 17:14:31]
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
EddieDude
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:05 am

IB has denied the existence of serious negotiations with LH. On the other hand, LH has mentioned that they may consider other acquisitions but played down the rumor that they are close to getting their hands on IB. I don't think this will happen.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
EUROBUS
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:36 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 4):
Your coments show a great ignorance in this field or are you just another IB basher?

Bullpitt,

Your permanent susceptibility is boring. I am a IB gold (oneworld sapphire) card holder, so I think I know what I am talking about as a regular IB client and as a frequent flyer. You may work in the industry, but I am one of the thousands of travellers that pay your salary. So please keep off. IB business model may have been successful until now for many reasons, but customer care is not one of them, and this is key for future expansion and profitability as there are many options from which to choose. So, justifiably or not, I wonder what is driving a 'successful' airline like IB to be sold at this time. This is my question. Maybe you might be familiar with how disappointed SEPLA (pilots union) with IB management -a very serious issue. And believe me, I would far prefer to see my flag airline head in the opposite direction building a solid future.

So please keep to the point and answer my question. If you want to, of course.

Regards,

EUROBUS
Who says airports are boring places?!
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:48 pm

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 8):
http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g....0e119f566b5445bda0d4a195d21061ca/

well all good with IB but just the service is very bad and I can say it after more than 14 flights with them over the Atlantic ..
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:49 pm

hi EUROBUS

First of all IB is not for sale it's simply a private companie who is listed on the stock exchange, therefore it's allways on sale. Our bussines class product to Latin America is as good as most, If not why are most flights full in J? For the last few years our loads have done nothing but increase. Also for your information we are no longer a flag company and as for the issues regarding SEPLA I think I know a bit more than you on thar matter althoug I don't understand what that has to do with anything.( All of us are also very disapointed with SEPLA)  Silly

Being a freequent flyer does not mean that you understand this bussiness, (I''m not saying that you don't) all it means that you use our service frequently. I use the train service every day and know F**k all about how RENFE works. You see I work in customer service (for the last seven years) so I do know what I'm talking about I know our strong points and our weak points. IB has and is changing, as one of our gold card holders you should be aware of all the little perks we offer you and compare them to what the other spanish airlines offer you.

Un Saludo Nando
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:13 pm

We've been discussing this a lot lately: LH Has An Agreement With IB

And we will likely be discussing this all year on airliners.net! But for now in the past weeks there have been no significant moves on IB from any side. There are rumors all over the place. Everybody is still waiting to see what BA does.

Integrating IB into oneworld would create big issues with JK. It would make no sense to keep both in the Spanish market (so merge them?). Of course competition authorities wouldn't be happy about it. And SAS, owners of Spanair and Star members, wouldn't be very happy about this either. Would LH use its weight in Star to overrule SAS & Spanair and force IB's integration? We can come up with a million theories on this.
 
EUROBUS
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:36 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:45 pm

Hello Nando,

Thanks. I far prefer this tone. I have to admit I probably understand a lot less than you of the industry, although I have close friends in IB and I follow the news. However, the opinion of frequent flyers should never be underestimated and our point of view is important to understand what is key to travellers. I nearly always travel with oneworld partners -for obvious reasons- and IB is number 1 choice ALWAYS. This is why I probably feel so frustrated sometimes, because I would love to be as proud of IB as a Brit is of BA -on the whole, very! You know there are many ways we could be a lot better, and PTV's are not the most important issue. It is sad when you listen to other passengers (not only tourists that fly occasionally) criticizing the service provided, specially when you have to admit they are right. And I am not bashing, Nando. I take an average of 60-70 flights a year, a lot of them long-haul, and IB is as regular as any other. But the little details make the difference -CX is a good example. Oh, and by the way, IB new Business Plus seats are great - btw I first saw them on CX.

You say IB is improving and as a FF I say you are right. But just remember that when using the train -as you say- you have no options and when flying there are many, price not being the only issue. So if I choose IB I have my reasons. One, of which I feel very satisfied with, is walking up to the check-in desk after a long and stressful day of work and being offered an upgrade. I can assure you the feeling of happiness lasts for days!!  Wink


True, flag carriers have gone, but you must admit they are still very over-protected. And true, all private companies rated on the market can be sold but, if the stake required for takeover needs the approval of major shareholders and the board of directors and this is accepted, then yes, the company IS up for sale. Conte has been looking for potential investors for some time now, and I wonder why. Is it that IB business model is not so solid? And going back to the beginning, if LH was to take over, operationally what would the outcome for IB and oneworld?

Un abrazo, Nando! I only try constructive criticism.
Who says airports are boring places?!
 
Lite
Posts: 269
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:53 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:54 pm

If Lufthansa purchased Iberia, what is the possibility that Iberia could eventually take-over Spanair? In terms of business model if Iberia was to move into the Star Alliance, they would be joined by Spanair who are already a member and owned by Lufthansa's partner and co-owner of bmi - SAS. If the two airlines were merged, not only would it create a stronger Spanish airline to compete against the low-cost airlines - but provide more fortified hubs in Barcelona and Madrid. Even if JKK/IB merged, there would still be plenty of competition in the Spanish market - internationally with all of the low-cost airlines, domestically with Air Europa, vueling and FR/EZY both with Spanish bases and of course the RENFE network. LH would gain a stronghold with a profitable carrier in southern Europe and across the Atlantic to South America.
LCC Lover Lite
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:03 am

Hola EUROBUS

First of all Caja Madrid seem to be happy to sell their part, El Corte Ingles I have my doubts, the question is why now? For Caja Madrid, the only interest they have is price, they came into IB for political reasons, they have no real interest and feel the price now would give them a great return for their money (That's the only thing they want) IB although generating profits for many years the return for the money invested is not the best and I'm sure they feel they can do better with their money else where. BA I understand are happy with things as they are and will only make their move ig LH or AF/KLM try to so something as it would be very bad for them if IB swaps alliances. The Americans are more dangerous as they are only interested in making money so their final intentions makes us (employees) feel uncomfortable.

In my opinion AF/KLM/IB would be very dangerous for BA and LH as they would be the great loosers and also I don't think it would be very good for BA if LH bought IB as this would jeperdise their position not only in South America but also in european conecctions into USA.

Can you explain that IB is over protected? In what ways?


Un Saludo Fernando
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:11 am

LH taking over IB, I don't think BA and OneWorld will let that happen. IB is too important of a member for OneWorld.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
GatoVolador
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:17 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 12):
You see I work in customer service (for the last seven years) so I do know what I'm talking about I know our strong points and our weak points.

Completely off-topic, but related to customer service: One thing that became worse over the last years is its call center (902 Serviberia and the other one that starts by 8..., I don't remember the exact name). Before, you called Serviberia and there was always somebody to help you in a very diligent way. However, since they outsourced it to an independent customer relations management firm (Sitel?), it has become like any of this unprofessional call centers. You ask something to the operator (apart from the typical bookings, etc.), and he/she usually doesn't know very well about what you're talking about. I read many complaints in some forums (i.e.:Yahoo answers) about people asking questions related to topics such as "I want to fly with my pet, what do I need?", or "How will it cost me if I bring with me a wind-surf equipment?" because Serviberia was not able to answer them and they were confused.

I hope Serviberia will reach again its professionalism, because a call center is a channel to sell and support sales, and then a bad answer can lead to an unsatisfied customer, which can sometimes imply to reject Iberia in favor of a competitor. I remember the case of a french madam that wanted to fly from Nantes to Santo Domingo via Madrid and asked in a forum a question about how the the connection in Barajas would be. She was very scared (with no reason) about losing her flight to South America (she had questions regarding luggage, boarding cards, etc.), and since she only spoke french and some english but not Spanish and Barajas was a new airport to her, once she saw nobody in Serviberia could explain her the transit issue, she finally purchased an AA ticket. Losing a customer like that is very sad, so I thing IB should take more care of this kind of customer service too.

[Edited 2007-04-22 17:47:51]
 
bullpitt
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:37 am

Hola GatoVolador

Could not agree with you more. Serviberia or the 807123456 are, as you have said, no longer done inhouse. It takes many years to form real professionals and these now only cater for the top ff the rest get what they want (Cheap fares, low service) What you can't do is ask for cheap fares and expect top service. Most airlines are cutting cost by getting rid of any service that is not needed to get from A to B. And luckily we still offer some services, try travelling with ryanair or similar with UM, petc, etc. these companies just don't offer them.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
LHRBlueSkies
Posts: 321
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RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:48 am

Many issues are being raised in this topic, so let's deal with a few of them and add a few more!  biggrin 

IB & Oneworld. If LH do buy Iberia, and the links to South America are extremely compelling resaons to do so, then it's highly likely that IB would switch to STAR - it just makes sense.  scratchchin 

IB & Service. The 2 words don't generally go in the same sentance! Their abyssmal service centre that has got roundly slated is badly managed, and is fails totally in it's role. The inflight service, like so many large carriers, is mixed you get good crews who obviously enjoy giving great service and enjoy the job they do (flight & cabin), and you get bad ones, who do the opposite, cabin crew who treat customers with distain, and flight crew who act like children - I know, I dispatch their flights at LHR.  banghead  Clickair (XG) on the otherhand, have great crews, young and keen to please, plus they have clean planes (inside and out) - how refreshing!  cloudnine 

IB & Routes. With the opening of their dedicated terminal at MAD, and the erosion of European routes/yields by the LCC's, IB seem to be concentrating everything at MAD, and to a lesser degree BCN. For example, of the 15 flights daily ex-LHR, 6 used to be for MAD, 4 for BCN, and the remainder to AGP, BIO, VLC, SCQ & SVQ. SVQ is now XG ex-LGW. SCQ changed to LCG, and with VLC are now XG routes. BCN is down to 3 flights a day, MAD up to 8. BIO remainders the odd-one-out. I am pretty sure VLC & LCG will trabsfer to LGW, and their slots dedicated to more MAD flights.

No-one knows how the future of European aviation will turnout, it is constantly changing, and as the song says, the only thing that stays the same is change!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):



Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 19):

Please stick to the topic!
 
GatoVolador
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:17 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting R2rho (Reply 21):

Please stick to the topic!

Sorry.
 
LHRBlueSkies
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:23 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:40 pm

What you can't do is ask for cheap fares and expect top service.

What a load of rubbish!  talktothehand  Tell that to the quality LCC's such as JetBlue.

It is IB, and other legacy carriers, that believe they shouldn't provide a quality service to pax who can't afford the premium of travelling business. As I said previously, compare IB european economy to Clickair - Clickair wins hands down! IB just cannot, or maybe do not want to, provide a resonably priced y-class service - they only care about the premium product.

And as for blaming the contracting out of the service centre on the poor state of customer service, again, more tosh! The ServiIberia was bad when run by IB staff, and I mean baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! Now it's like most other contracted-out services, staff have no loyalty to a face-less customer.

Anyway, the question was, IB's future in Oneworld - answer, depends on who owns them!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:00 pm

Fresh news: BA is studying an alliance with other investors (among which one or more are Spanish) to buy IB. In Spanish (El Mundo), in English (BBC).

As suspected, BA doesn't want to go at it alone; they are not in a position to go through a merger right now, but they see themselves forced to move as to not lose a strategic partner. This move would totally make sense. BA would control IB and stop LH from taking over, but without taking an excessive financial risk and without going through a full merger. The presence of Spanish investors would guarantee that IB keeps its Latin American network.

For now these are just rumors, we'll have to wait for BA to officially announce something...
 
EUROBUS
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:36 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting R2rho (Reply 24):
Fresh news: BA is studying an alliance with other investors (among which one or more are Spanish) to buy IB. In Spanish (El Mundo), in English (BBC).

Now this makes a lot more sense. I bet this can make the other major European alliances shiver!  cold  The idea of a consortium can avoid BA from having to use their assets and would create positive speculation for both BA and IB.
Who says airports are boring places?!
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting R2rho (Reply 24):
For now these are just rumors, we'll have to wait for BA to officially announce something...

Its not a rumour, BA posted a press release early this morning; this was picked up by the BBC and broadcast nationwide on Breakfast News.

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bapress/public/en_gb
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Future Of IB In OneWorld

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 26):

I didn't realize that! Thanks for posting the link!

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