Long Beach Airport Expansion Plan OK'd

JetBlueAUS · Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:31 am

Good news for airlines that would like to expand in LGB.

http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_5744165?source=most_viewed

LAXintl · Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:54 am

This terminal renovation does not provide any increase flight activity, so it will in now way lead to airlines "expanding" at LGB.

The renovation simply will allow the airport to remove and make permanent buildings in place of the current portable trailer's used for security screening and gate areas. Basically replace the hap-hazard design that has been use temporarily for last 5+ years to mitigate the swell of traffic at the airport. The proposals provide added ticket counter, gate hold area, retail and office space.

Good move forward certainly.

Proposed facility layout can be viewed on the following document
http://www.longbeach.gov/civica/inc/displayblobpdf2.asp?BlobID=14756

AADC10 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:55 am

Even though the "expansion" is mostly replacing the tents and trailers wither permanent buildings, that is still something of an achievement. NIMBYs will block anything because they fear it will lead to increased airport utilization, even if there are caps. New terminal facilities may mean an airline can move in and use the available RJ slots and the slot caps may not last forever.

travelin man · Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:55 am

I cannot STAND people that move under an airport flight path, and the have the gall to COMPLAIN about the airport. From the article:

Sheryl Fafard, who brought her three sons, ages 7, 10, and 12, who all held signs, asked the council to look out for residents' interests. She said she moved to Long Beach six years ago, thinking it would be a safe place to raise her children. But with more planes in the air above her home, she and her family, she said, must constantly battle the noise. Three years ago, she developed asthma.

"If I could afford to move, I would," she said.

Tracy Chambers attended the meeting with her husband and 10-month-old daughter to urge the council to consider the damage a terminal expansion could have on residents' quality of life and health, especially her daughter's.

"There's soot raining down on our house. Our oranges are covered in black," Chambers said as she tried to hold back tears. "It's horrible."

Chambers, who moved here five years ago, said her cat got asthma after six months.

Jesus H. Christ. So now we are going to decide on airport expansion based on cats getting asthma? Ridiculous.

LAXspotter · Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
I cannot STAND people that move under an airport flight path, and the have the gall to COMPLAIN about the airport.

I agree, especially those who move near an airport knowing that an airport isnt exactly a quiet environment. I think she has exaggerated her story, simply because the movements in LGB arent that high.

richierich · Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
Jesus H. Christ. So now we are going to decide on airport expansion based on cats getting asthma? Ridiculous.

Geez- you'd think that maybe these people should get out and work more if they want to move out of Long Beach that badly!

I'm 100% with you on that topic, Travelin man. Most NIMBYs are nothing more than complainers who have nobody but themselves to blame. Even worse, people like the ones you quoted in your post make it worse on the real victims when airports try to expand (of which, there are usually very few, in my opinion). In this case, there is nothing about increasing the number of flights, only the space at the airport - the same airport these people probably use because they complain about having to drive to LAX or SNA!

I'm not going to sit here and lend my support toward LGB flight expansion but I certainly think people like Sheryl and Tracy are part of the problem and not the solution. Soot raining down on her house? Her oranges turning black? Are you freaking kidding me? What must life be like under the approach to LAX then? What was it like in the 1970s when McDonnell-Douglas was constantly churning out new jets, which were much much louder than anything flying into LGB today, I might add? Any self-respecting journalist shouldn't even publish quotes like that.

AA54Heavy · Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 5):
Soot raining down on her house? Her oranges turning black? Are you freaking kidding me? What must life be like under the approach to LAX then? What was it like in the 1970s when McDonnell-Douglas was constantly churning out new jets, which were much much louder than anything flying into LGB today, I might add? Any self-respecting journalist shouldn't even publish quotes like that.

Yeah, i call BS on that also.....what about every single other airport in this country, or in the world, do they have major soot problems? especially at an airport that doesn't even have that many flights! And yeah, she shouldn't have moved there in the first place, tough sh*t if you ask me...its amazing how people, and the press, milk sympathy for folks who shot themselves in the foot....

AviationAddict · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:07 am

I don't know much about Long Beach, but shouldn't the level of traffic at the airport be a lot lower nowadays since the demise of McDonnell Douglas?

LAXintl · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
I don't know much about Long Beach, but shouldn't the level of traffic at the airport be a lot lower nowadays since the demise of McDonnell Douglas?

LGB is primarily a General Aviation airport. For instance in 2006, there were a total of 369,738 movement at the airport (over 1000/day) of which only 12,834 were airlines.
The demise of Douglas really does not have much of an effect, even during peak periods it did not account for massive volume.

The Nimby's do have a slight point, that activity at the airport does continue to grow year after year. For instance total movements going back to in 2005 were 353,001, 2004-339,222. Popularity in fractional jet ownership and recreational flying pushing nearly all the annual growth.

AA737-823 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
This terminal renovation does not provide any increase flight activity, so it will in now way lead to airlines "expanding" at LGB.

Did you read it?

"The approved version would increase airplane parking spaces to 12 from 10 and the number of gates to 11 from eight."

Sounds like more to me.

This is good news. LGB is a way cool airport, and I am glad to see they are preserving the oldest part of it.

LAXintl · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Did you read it?

Sure I did, the document makes clear flight activity remains capped at current 41 jet and 25 commuter slots.

So no, there will be no added flight activity and no expansion by airlines beyond what is currently allowed. All they get is a much roomier and proper facility to work from.

PanAm747 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:41 am

Quote:
Sheryl Fafard, who brought her three sons, ages 7, 10, and 12, who all held signs, asked the council to look out for residents' interests. She said she moved to Long Beach six years ago, thinking it would be a safe place to raise her children. But with more planes in the air above her home, she and her family, she said, must constantly battle the noise.

What - did she think the Los Angeles basin is a slow-paced, small-town, QUIET place? Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know about L.A.? I think isolated tribes in jungles that know more than she claims to know!! banghead

Quote:
Three years ago, she developed asthma.

Yeah, definitely caused by airplanes. There are no cars, buses, boats, industries, or articles of lawn equipment with noxious and polluting two stroke engines in Los Angeles. No, only airplanes, and specifically the airplanes that land over HER house.

Quote:
"If I could afford to move, I would," she said.

Too bad nobody wants to buy a house in the Los Angeles basin...poor baby.

Quote:
"There's soot raining down on our house. Our oranges are covered in black," Chambers said as she tried to hold back tears. "It's horrible."

It's called acid fog, dear...that Ford Excavation that gets 3 miles to the gallon that you drive to Starbuck's down the corner every morning contributes to that as well. As does your illegal alien gardener who you underpay to keep your lawn looking a tad bit better than your neighbor's...

Quote:
So no, there will be no added flight activity and no expansion by airlines beyond what is currently allowed. All they get is a much roomier and proper facility to work from.

Which is still the Apocalypse in southern California.

Logic and forethought have no place in decisions in America anymore - it's all about emotions and "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?". Everytime you think something can be made idiot proof, God sends us a better idiot.

rampart · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
LGB is a way cool airport, and I am glad to see they are preserving the oldest part of it.

And from the plans, looks like the stay with no loading bridges. Cool!

-Rampart

WTXJET · Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
Chambers, who moved here five years ago, said her cat got asthma after six months.

There must be alot of cats in the LA Basin with asthma. So, the NIMBY's think 41 jet and 25 commuter movements a day cause asthma in cats? Are these aircraft movements the only cause? There must be alot of cats with asthma in California, see the EPA link.

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?_s...feat=L&mapsize=zsc&reqtype=viewmap

as739x · Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:02 am

It seems the city is at fault in some ways of not educating the locals that this will not increase the amounts of flight, hence no raise in noise. This is simply to make LGB look like a real airport when arriving rampside there. But i am sure glad it passed and i'd love to be able to tell the LGB locals that are screaming to shove it!

ASLAX

halls120 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
The Nimby's do have a slight point, that activity at the airport does continue to grow year after year. For instance total movements going back to in 2005 were 353,001, 2004-339,222. Popularity in fractional jet ownership and recreational flying pushing nearly all the annual growth.

The NIMBY's have NO point. The land for Daugherty Field was set side by the City Council in 1923, and the first operating certificate was issued in 1925. If there are current NIMBY's that lived in Long Beach before 1923, they have a reason to complain. Everyone else knew, or should have known, that they were buying a house in the vicinity of an operating airfield.

Boeing7E7 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
What - did she think the Los Angeles basin is a slow-paced, small-town, QUIET place? Is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know about L.A.? I think isolated tribes in jungles that know more than she claims to know!!

Someone should ask her if she thinks living so close the the parking lot that is the 405 might have more to do with the black stuff she claims is ruining here life. What a freakin idiot.

ramprat74 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:45 am

NIMBY'S are funny. They're like five oil refineries in Long Beach alone. I think thats where the black soot is coming from.

SkyyMaster · Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:47 am

LGB is a great airport, only been there once a couple of years ago. Flew in on B6 from LAS. They had 5 Airbuses on the ramp, plus an AS 734. Cramped but fun. First time I'd used airstairs since flying into Jackson Hole back in the early 90's, and rear stairs at that. A face lift will be nice, but glad to see they are preserving the history.

lightsaber · Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:02 am

Ugh... NIMBY's, enough said.

Important question, will they move the restaurant so that the view remains. hyper

My fiance tolerates us arriving early to have a dinner while the plans land pre-flight. spin

Ok, positives, the 502 additional seats (thanks for the link Laxintl) on slide 31 will certainly come in handy. During peak times the lack of seats... was painfull. Even that many isn't enough (you need spares, e.g., to allow cleaning, etc.). Look at slide 34, 120 seats for a 150 seat A320? Ugh. What happens for a 757? (HP/US)?

Having the extra space for the podiums will be a blessing. Smile

Although an 18 foot wide cooridor seems narrow. Sad

But its much better than the current path... Slide 33 seems optimistic (sorry, but families always block at least half of the path... Grrr...).

Basically... I'm happy with an additional 33,000 ft^2... but would have been much happier with another 20,000ft^2. Smile

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
The NIMBY's have NO point. The land for Daugherty Field was set side by the City Council in 1923, and the first operating certificate was issued in 1925. If there are current NIMBY's that lived in Long Beach before 1923, they have a reason to complain. Everyone else knew, or should have known, that they were buying a house in the vicinity of an operating airfield.

I agree! And if anyone who bought prior to 1923 is still around, I'm really ok with them being bought out of their home! Wink

I have a deal... Expand the terminal to the largest size (IIRC 116,000 ft^2) and before its allowed to be utilized, buy out everyone who bought pre 1923 for 125% of market value. Oh... non-transferable offer. Must be original owner (not a 2nd spouse, etc.)

Ugh... the greater LA region is going to suffer from lack of airport capacity. Sorry, but ONT is too far away from me. Its like mass transportation, a great idea for someone else...

Lightsaber

flymd · Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:47 am

I think that the expansion of Long Beach is much needed. Having flown B6 to and from LGB, I think that the LGB experience diminishes the B6 experience. The "terminals" are too small and too crowded. The appearance really gives a Greyhound feel to the whole operation.

G4LASRamper · Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:40 pm

NIMBYs crack me up. I used to live under the downwind to RWY 30 at LGB (1998-2001) and yes there was a lot of black soot - most of it coke dust blown in from the huge stockpiles of the stuff sitting out in the open at the Terminal Island harbor facilities. Those piles have since had covers built over them but still, soot from the harbor, the previously mentioned numerous oil refineries, and 405/110/605/22 freeway traffic is a feature of living in Long Beach, or anywhere else in the harbor district for that matter.

We have a similar NIMBY problem here in Sin City. LAS re-started right-hand turnouts from the RWYs 25 last month and you should hear the howls of NIMBY protest coming from Summerlin. And of course our local city government (the best government money can buy, in the best Nevada tradition) has pandered to them by authorizing another $200,000 or so of city money to be spent fighting the FAA over the right turn departures. Fortunately the city has no jurisdiction over either the airspace or the airport (all of the airports in Clark County except for Boulder City are owned and operated by the county). The NIMBYs and the city council do provide lots of entertainment around here.

Back to LGB, congratulations on the new permanent facilities! I always liked the smallish atmosphere and convenience of that airport. So quick and easy to get in and out of. Way to go!

thunder9 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Basically... I'm happy with an additional 33,000 ft^2... but would have been much happier with another 20,000ft^2

I agree w/you 110%, but the one area that makes me nervous is the ticket counter area. If I read the info correctly, it looks like the ticket counter/queueing area/office space area will remain the same, or even become slightly smaller. Now, how freakin' stoopid izzat??

-J

flynlr · Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:43 pm

im hoping the upgrades include the rent a car trailer .

christao17 · Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:43 pm

I agree that the use of quotes about soot-covered oranges without pointing out the multiple possible other causes smacks of unfair and unbalanced reporting. I noticed at the bottom of the article, it says:

Mira Jang can be reached at [email protected] or at (562) 499-1278.

Won't you join me in emailing Mira and suggesting that she be a little more balanced in her coverage?

Coronado990 · Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 24):
I agree that the use of quotes about soot-covered oranges without pointing out the multiple possible other causes smacks of unfair and unbalanced reporting.

Hey, I've got black soot on my orange tree's and I'm no where near an airport. Plenty of cars around though, might have something to do with it. But hey, say something like around here that and you're a freakin' communist!!

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 19):
Its like mass transportation, a great idea for someone else...

Ouch that hurt!!! You don't consider airlines part of mass transportation?

dacman · Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:33 am

I have lived in Long Beach my entire life (46 years) on the approach end of Rwy 30, have cats, a dog and numerous fruit trees and all are very healthy........I think the LBHUSH2 folks and their NIMBY supporters have some other issues to address.

The airport has been a long festering issue here in Long Beach and I have had many disagreements with neighbors, especially new neighbors about the airport and the actual facts surrounding the noise regulations. The LBHUSH2 crowd present evidence that is half true or don't present some at all leading to misinformation.

I applaud the City Council for finally doing something positive in regards to the airport and not letting the LBHUSH2 crowd bully them into a corner. As I have stated in other forums "It's time to say HUSH to those who don't support growth at LGB"

Michael
(Dacman)
LAX / LGB Local

christao17 · Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:11 am

Here is my email to the journalist, sent this morning:

Dear Ms. Jang,

May I provide some feedback regarding your article (Airport plan OK'd fro 89,995 sq. fr) that appeared in the Press-Telegram on April 24?

While the issue of expansion of the Long Beach airport is one that gives rise to many passionate voices of opposition, your reporting of that opposition was very unbalanced. In your article you tell the story of Sheryl Fafard:

"She said she moved to Long Beach six years ago, thinking it would be a safe place to raise her children. But with more planes in the air above her home, she and her family, she said, must constantly battle the noise. Three years ago, she developed asthma."

By including that last sentence, you imply that the asthma is somehow connected to the airport and, indirectly, that the terminal expansion (which will result in no increase of scheduled commercial aircraft operations) is related to negative health effects suffered by neighbors.

You also quote Tracy Chambers:

"There's soot raining down on our house. Our oranges are covered in black," Chambers said as she tried to hold back tears. "It's horrible."

"Our oranges are covered in black"?! With major freeways passing through, major refineries in the area, and the largest and most active container port in the nation, it would seem that Long Beach has no shortage of sources of soot and it is hard to imagine that the airport, with such a limited number of scheduled commercial aircraft operations, is the primary culprit.

It is important that the voices of the citizenry are represented in the coverage of the news, but sensationalist quotes that lead the reader to draw conclusions not supported by facts or science is very sloppy journalism, indeed. As a reader, I expect more thoughtful writing especially when it comes to issues that produce such strong emotions in the community.

So there! Won't make a difference, I suspect, but maybe when she writes her next article about this topic she will be just a little more concerned with telling both sides of the story.

lightsaber · Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting Thunder9 (Reply 22):
I agree w/you 110%, but the one area that makes me nervous is the ticket counter area. If I read the info correctly, it looks like the ticket counter/queueing area/office space area will remain the same, or even become slightly smaller. Now, how freakin' stoopid izzat??

As Hapiness Bunny says, STOOPID! However, if you show up early for the B6 redeyes and have dinner in the airport, I've never waited behind more than one other couple. Smile

Quoting Flynlr (Reply 23):
im hoping the upgrades include the rent a car trailer .

Neat thing, that's a regular business and not subject to the same review. Smile

Its smart of them to leave that vote until later. spin

After this new terminal is built, a new rental car garage with integrated offices will be an easy sell. But its best, for political reasons, to wait for 3 to 5 years. Sad

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 25):
You don't consider airlines part of mass transportation?

Oh, I do... but I really wish they'd build the proposed Western Terminal at LAX with the large 100+ slot bus terminal, century freeway access, red line (hopefully with an express leg a la NYC's Lexington ave subway), green line, Exposition line, etc.

I actually really like mass transit. But until its a system... it sucks. Airlines work because you can get from anywhere to anywhere. That must also be reasonable within a large urban area like LA. E.g., try to get from Redondo Beach to ONT via mass transit in under 2 hours during the day. If it can be done, PLEASE TELL ME HOW!

Lightsaber

Arcrftlvr · Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
Chambers, who moved here five years ago, said her cat got asthma after six months.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
She said she moved to Long Beach six years ago

Once they published the dates the NIMBY's moved in, all complaints lost any credibilty they MAY have had. I can't stand them...the NIMBY's I mean.

Quoting WTXJET (Reply 13):
There must be alot of cats in the LA Basin with asthma.

True...I wonder if they have little kitty inhalers too?

richierich · Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 27):
So there! Won't make a difference, I suspect, but maybe when she writes her next article about this topic she will be just a little more concerned with telling both sides of the story.

Nice letter! I'm sure you are right - won't make a difference - but it would interesting to see if there was a response.
Oh well.

Junction · Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:11 am

What's with no jetways in the new plan? Can B6 include them if they want, or are jetways somehow banned from LGB?

LAXintl · Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 31):
What's with no jetways in the new plan? Can B6 include them if they want, or are jetways somehow banned from LGB?

No jetways. Actually one the charms and beauty of LGB is its lack of jetways, a nice throw back to airports of yesteryear.

If you take a look at the presentation link from my reply#1, on pages 5-9 you can see terminal diagrams and artist renderings. The renovated terminal is not long enough to provide jetway parking for the number of aircraft parking spots planned. As you can see, some aircraft double parking is planned on both sides of the terminal. If the facility was an all jetway facility, the number of aircraft spots would have to be reduced.

Anyhow with the good Southern California weather how many days would you really need a jetway? It only truly rains more then a drizzle about what 10-12 days per year?

lightsaber · Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 32):
Anyhow with the good Southern California weather how many days would you really need a jetway? It only truly rains more then a drizzle about what 10-12 days per year?

Exactly.

Also, LGB has such a low flight limit that its practical to operate the small airport in "waves". B6 has a flood of aircraft arrive and then they wait until the departure. This eliminates the noise issue (which is the 2nd reason you want jetways at large airports). Ever been on a flightline as a 747 taxis by? OUCH!

We're talking 5 flights/day per gate. Not exactly pushing it. If you wanted to go to 7 or 8+ flights per day per gate... noise would drive you to a jetway. But LGB won't be going there.

Its just a good thing to have more seats, bathrooms, and a few vendors after security.

I'm happy its keeping its old charm yet providing far more comfort than the current setup.

Lightsaber

Junction · Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:24 am

I was thinking more of passenger convenience for the jetways. Older people and wheelchair pax hate stairs, so I was just kind of surprised a brand new facility would be designed this day and age without them. There are a lot of smaller airports then LGB that have them, so I guess the main reason must still come down to ramp space.

asteriskceo · Thu May 03, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 3):
Sheryl Fafard, who brought her three sons, ages 7, 10, and 12, who all held signs, asked the council to look out for residents' interests. She said she moved to Long Beach six years ago, thinking it would be a safe place to raise her children. But with more planes in the air above her home, she and her family, she said, must constantly battle the noise. Three years ago, she developed asthma.

"If I could afford to move, I would," she said.

Tracy Chambers attended the meeting with her husband and 10-month-old daughter to urge the council to consider the damage a terminal expansion could have on residents' quality of life and health, especially her daughter's.

"There's soot raining down on our house. Our oranges are covered in black," Chambers said as she tried to hold back tears. "It's horrible."

Chambers, who moved here five years ago, said her cat got asthma after six months.

Oh my god! She obviously was married to an airline pilot who cheated on her and now holds a grudge on the entire aviation community.

FIRST off, I live in the exact same neighborhood. Not only have I never seen "soot", the streets look no blacker than any other street I've ever seen. And if she developed "asthma" I'm sure it's from the 405 that is less than a quarter of a mile away. Don't believe me, go look on google maps!

My next point: The noise isn't even bad from the airline traffic. In fact, the sound of Airbus A320s landing and taking off is almost inaudible compared to the biz jets and CONSTANT helicopter traffic. Whenever a biz jet takes off, or a helicopter flies over head my entire house rattles, however I have never felt a single vibration from an A320, CRJ, or MD80.

When I bought my house here, I knew it was going to be louder due to the airport. Common sense, right?

I know this woman, she has attended many of the LGB terminal expansion meetings, and she is a nut-job. And a majority of the others defending the improvement are extremely ignorant, especially to the fact that a terminal improvement does not allow for more airline traffic.

I have repetedly suggested to them that they focus on the real problem, enforcing stricter rules for the helo traffic and recognizing that the the business jets are using full power for a 10,000 foot runway.

A380fo · Thu May 03, 2007 11:29 am

i was at one of the community meetings and i asked for jetways as a proposal but they said the only way that would happend was if lgb got 2 stories cause supposobly u need a 2 story building for jetways

hawaiian717 · Thu May 03, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting A380fo (Reply 36):
i was at one of the community meetings and i asked for jetways as a proposal but they said the only way that would happend was if lgb got 2 stories cause supposobly u need a 2 story building for jetways

That sounds about right. MFR has one jetway and a ground level terminal. When the flight using it boards, you get your boarding pass scanned at the gate, then go either up the stairs or an elevator to the jetway and down that to the plane.

SANFan · Thu May 03, 2007 4:58 pm

I'm very curious why the story did not bother to mention the UNIMPORTANT fact that there will be no additional aircraft op's after the expansion is completed! Were none of these poor asthmatic Long Beachian NIMBYs aware of this fact? Was the fact never brought up at this particular meeting? Did it never come up? I don't understand...

Quoting A380fo (Reply 36):
i asked for jetways as a proposal but they said the only way that would happend was if lgb got 2 stories cause supposobly u need a 2 story building for jetways

Last year SAN/WN installed 2 ground-level jet bridges (at the single story gates 1 and 2 at the very east end of T1) so such an animal does exist. (The Live Search/Virtual Earth aerial photo of Lindbergh Field shows them beautifully.) As was said by other posters on this thread though, So Cal's weather certainly is conducive to the use of air stairs.

bb

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