Emirates2005
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Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:35 pm

Hi everyone,

The search gave no indication of this topic, although I do recall some info on this previously. Interesting news.

Emirates is "thinking a bit" about starting a budget airline in the coming few years, its vice chairman said today as the state-owned firm announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profits.

"We are thinking a bit about [a low-cost carrier]," Maurice Flanagan told the Reuters news agency. "It's something for the next few years. The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that," he said without elaboration.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/index...es-mulls-low-cost-carrier&Itemid=0
A310, A332, B732, B738, B742, B743, B773, B77W, DC-10, ATR42, TU-134, TU-154, IL-62, MI-8, E190, A320, C172
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:40 pm

would we see Emirates trickle down older frames to this start-up as new capacity comes online, or would it be an A380 only venture?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 1):
would we see Emirates trickle down older frames to this start-up as new capacity comes online, or would it be an A380 only venture?

Judging from the initial rumours that floated around when this subject first came up, it might just be an A380 only venture.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
CXfirst
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting Emirates2005 (Thread starter):
The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that,"

 Wow! 853 people on one plane (if they do Y only with max passengers....)

-CXfirst
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:20 pm

That idea would only work for the routes in India and Pakistan. So I don't see the need to create a new airline as EK will already configure some of their A380s in high density...
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 3):
853 people on one plane (if they do Y only with max passengers....)

And worse, if it's 2-4-2 on the upper deck and 3-4-3 on the main deck, all Y and with a seat pitch of 28 to 30".  crowded 
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:34 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 3):
853 people on one plane (if they do Y only with max passengers....)

Nobody mentioned they would squeeze 853 passengers into that plane...
Even at 750 Passengers the yield on certain destinations would be good.
Maybe they would consider a short-range A380 with "high-density" -say 750-800 pax and a longer-range version with less seats to Europe and/or Australia.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
flyorski
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
Maybe they would consider a short-range A380 with "high-density" -say 750-800 pax and a longer-range version with less seats to Europe and/or Australia

I think that would be about right.

I can understand that they would want this operation to have a different name, so that ppl don't confuse the great service on EK with the (most likely) crappy service on an A380 with 800 pax.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
easyas321
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 3):
Quoting Emirates2005 (Thread starter):
The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that,"

853 people on one plane (if they do Y only with max passengers....)

Heard of version of A380 that could seat 1000. EK might need to do a low cost version, to partly counter Air Asia who will be jamming their A333's with up to 440 seats !!! (think this is max in an A330-300 ?)
 
detroitflyer
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:58 pm

i was under the impression taht ek was really cheap already!!!!!
Boiler Up!!!
 
easyas321
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
i was under the impression taht ek was really cheap already!!!!!

Not at all, but they do have a few price leading fares, but not at times when they're going to be full anyway.

They're trying to be another SQ & almost succeeding.

Gulf Air already have a low cost varient called Gulf Traveller don't they or has that folded ?
 
jasond
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 1):
would we see Emirates trickle down older frames to this start-up as new capacity comes online, or would it be an A380 only venture?

Geez, can you imagine it, An LCC model using A380's!!!! Don't think I could cope with that  Sad
 
flyorski
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 10):
Gulf Air already have a low cost varient called Gulf Traveller don't they or has that folded ?

No I think that it is still flying.........

Don't they use 767s?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
karan69
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
ven at 750 Passengers the yield on certain destinations would be good.

When doing my project on Emirates, i found that one of their 3 desired A380 configs was for 640 seats in dual class layout typically targeting destinations like MNL / CGK
etc...

Karan
 
aerosol
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:02 pm

Positive: All European and Asian carriers will drop their prices for Y on the main routes. Meanig that flying will get cheaper - like main on main routes in Europe.

Negative: Carriers will deeply assess their service bundle - maybe that is the death of free food on longhaul.

The European - Asian - Australian market will be intersting to watch in 5 years. In an economic downturn, oil price rise, sars or an act of terror we will certainly see one or two of the main carriers disappear.
 
keno
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 10):
Gulf Air already have a low cost varient called Gulf Traveller

Gulf Traveller was not a LCC, it was the all-economy variant of GF serving routes with low demand in permium classes (Subcontinent, Jakarta, Zanzibar etc).

Almost similar to what Australian Airlines (AO) used to be in relative to QF, whereas JetStar is a LCC.
 
EK156
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:05 pm

Year: 2130
Place: Dubai - UAE
Flight : Dubai - New York JFK
Type: A400-1000
Pax: 5340
Flight Time: 6hrs 50min
 
BigTom
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 10):
Gulf Air already have a low cost varient called Gulf Traveller don't they or has that folded ?

It's being shut down as GF goes into intensive restructuring.

Quoting KEno (Reply 15):
Gulf Traveller was not a LCC, it was the all-economy variant of GF serving routes with low demand in permium classes (Subcontinent, Jakarta, Zanzibar etc).

 checkmark 

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 7):
I can understand that they would want this operation to have a different name, so that ppl don't confuse the great service on EK with the (most likely) crappy service on an A380 with 800 pax.

EK's service on sub-continent routes are already pretty crappy.

Cheers
 
andaman
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 10):
Quoting Detroitflyer (Reply 9):
i was under the impression taht ek was really cheap already!!!!!



Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 10):

Not at all, but they do have a few price leading fares, but not at times when they're going to be full anyway.

From Germany they often are one of the cheapest altenatives to BKK, for an example. Flew them MUC-DXB-BKK in Nov last time.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
ekskycargo370
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:45 am

LCC's are ruining the airline industry,I seriously hope EK don't go down this road,will ruin the reputation of a highly prestigious carrier.
 
rdwootty
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RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:08 am

The problem with EK is that they are NOT a low cost carrier now they have carved their niche in the market. From BHX the fares are about 25% more than last year! good for profits but in the end customer realise that and lok for other flights. It will be interesting if Airasia X start to fly from EMA
 
David_itl
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Rdwootty (Reply 20):
From BHX the fares are about 25% more than last year! good for profits but in the end customer realise that and lok for other flights. It

Not necessaritly- look at MAN: we've got EK, EY and QR, none of whom appear to have any difficulty in attracting passengers onto their services. As long as BA/Oneworld concentrate on getting passengers to route through LHR, the Gulf carriers will carve up the regional markets (what did the CAA survey indicate? Something like 150,000-180,000 passengers going MAN-"somewhere"-Australia and from that, about 35,000 taking the LHR option?).

Quoting Jasond (Reply 11):
An LCC model using A380's

I'm sure one of the "quality" UK papers ran an article about a prospecive EK Express flying from STN to DXB and onwards, in a single class A380.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Emirates2005 (Thread starter):
Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP MEMBERSSUGGEST DELETIONQUOTE SELECTED TEXT

Emirates2005 From United Arab Emirates, joined Jun 2005, 87 posts, RR: 0
Posted Fri Apr 27 2007 22:35:42 your local time (14 hours 4 minutes 17 secs ago) and read 2542 times:

Hi everyone,

The search gave no indication of this topic, although I do recall some info on this previously. Interesting news.

Emirates is "thinking a bit" about starting a budget airline in the coming few years, its vice chairman said today as the state-owned firm announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profits.

"We are thinking a bit about [a low-cost carrier]," Maurice Flanagan told the Reuters news agency. "It's something for the next few years. The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that," he said without elaboration.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/index...mid=0

It seems that Emirates begins to realize that the DABAI HUB concept, which is working at this moment
as long as economical point-to-point non stop planes as the B748, B787 and A350 are not available, will
not work with upper price level passengers, which would aways prefer direct, more so non-stop flights.

Now they are thinking on low cost solutions, i.e. packing about 750 pax in a A380, which if its clearly
cheaper, will not mind the transhipment

But the other problems remain: As compared with a B748 with 600 seats, as long as they cannot pack
more then 600 passengers in the A380, its operating costs will be higher than for the A748 (and
B787/A350's in many cases) and if there is not an important difference in price, even the "proletariat" will
prefer direct flights in smaller aircrafts and not be loaded and unloaded several times and spent many
hours more in such a packed aircraft.

And cost-wise, two flights obviously cost more both by aircraft time and airport handling, especially if
there is one leg with 800 pax, assuming such it is handable ! (For the A380 leg, only a few airports
will be available.

Therefore

, So, as an example: why a flight London- Dubai in A380 plus Dubai - XIANMEN in B787 should be
cheaper than on leg LONDON-XIANMEN ??

I would say: It can be discussed that for AIRLINES like BA, QANTAS, AIR CHINA the A380 could
be economical for some routes, as all these have a large pool of potential passenger in their own
influence zone. But this in not applicable for EK or QR (at least not in comparable scale !!) and
therefore depending of the transit pax.

And these facts cannot be compensated by that the latter airlines are flush with easily e
arned oil proceeds money and their owners therefore easy to convince by their idea-rich Western
Presidents and CEOs to spent billions in such risky endeavors. But I would say they are beginning
to see the negative factors. The delaying hints issued this week show so.

aminobwana
 
David_itl
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
But the other problems remain: As compared with a B748 with 600 seats, as long as they cannot pack more then 600 passengers in the A380

From Emirates website
The Emirates' A380s have been ordered in three configurations:

a low-density, long range three-class 489 seater
a low-density, medium range three-class 517 seater
and a higher-density, medium range two-class 644 seater


And for a thread about an EK Express operation, read this.
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 3):
853 people on one plane (if they do Y only with max passengers....)

And how many (few) toilets?  eyepopping 
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:13 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting BigTom (Reply 17):
EK's service on sub-continent routes are already pretty crappy.

What, the inflight service? Is that really true, and if it is true, how come this is so?
 
detroitflyer
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:01 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 12):

No I think that it is still flying.........

Don't they use 767s?

no it has been shut down. All 767's from the fleet are being retired due to mechianical problems IIRC.
Boiler Up!!!
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting David_itl (Reply 23):
David_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 4326 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted Sat Apr 28 2007 14:09:43 your local time (45 minutes 31 secs ago) and read 204 times:


Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
But the other problems remain: As compared with a B748 with 600 seats, as long as they cannot pack more then 600 passengers in the A380

From Emirates website
The Emirates' A380s have been ordered in three configurations:

a low-density, long range three-class 489 seater
a low-density, medium range three-class 517 seater
and a higher-density, medium range two-class 644 seater


And for a thread about an EK Express operation, read this.

As a clolleage on the EK express Topic says, EMIRATES can not afford to mix his Low-cost operation with the
main one, as few will be willing to pay F or B in a plane packed with 644 persons

Therefore I had assumed a one class version with about 750 pax.

If we assume that the ultra cheap mass fare on a certain route round trip is $ 300 Lomdon-Dubai-Beijing
(today the cheapest is about $ 750), the B-fare cost today $ 3,500, the F = $ 6,500) in the high density
trhree class (assuming 18 F, 80B, E 419) and 100% occupancy the total would be $ 545,000

But if they pack 750 pax paying $ 400 each, it would be only $ 300,000 (today, at $ 750, it would be $ 562,000

I realize that this is only indicative, as the occupancy will not be 100% and different in each class, and not all the
E-pax will pay the Ultra-cheap fare. But it shows the Ultra cheap must be not so cheap and thefore not so attractive.

And elaborating what I wrote before, estimating

IA380 with an average LF of 80% / 600 pax cost round trip 1,000, 6 trips/week: 3,600 pax, cost 6,000 stop DUBAI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B748 with an average LF of 80%/ 480 pax cost round trip 1,100, 7 trips/week: 3,360 pax: cost 6,600 Non stop
+
B787 1,200 1 trips/week 240 pax. cost 288 Non stop

Total 3,600 pax cost 6,888 Non stop
The differenrce of $ 244 will be several times absorbed by:
- fuel costs for additional landing and start
- Operation and Capital cost for additional time (at least 1 hour)
- airport costs in Dubai Capital
,
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 815
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting EKSkycargo370 (Reply 19):
LCC's are ruining the airline industry,I seriously hope EK don't go down this road,will ruin the reputation of a highly prestigious carrier.

Virgin Atlantic isn't ruining it's good name with a bunch of cheap all tourist charter type operations to the Caribbean.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:09 pm

Continuation and correction of my ncomplete Reply 27, which was sent by clicking the wrong button:

EXAMPLE: London-Beijing Direct versus London - Dubai-Beijing (price or point relation are rough estimates)
All Economy configuration
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A380 average LF of 80% / 600 pax,
cost round trip 1,000 Points/pax, 6 trips/week =Total 3,600 pax, 3,600,000 Points, Stop DUBAI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B748 average LF of 80% / 480 pax,
cost round trip 1,100 Points/pax, 7 trips/week:=Total 3,360 pax, 3,696.,000 Points, non stop
+
B787 240 pax,
cost round trip 1,200 Points/pax, 1 trip /week = Total 240 pax, 288,000 Points
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total B748+B787........................8 trips/week= Total 3,600 pax.3,984,000 Points -

Total Difference in favor Dubai = 384,000 Points
The differenrce will be several times absorbed by:
- fuel costs for additional distance (1,900 miles) and additional landing and start in Dubai, possibly
..compensated (partially) by less fuel consumption due to shorter flight sectors (3,400 +
..3,600 mlles, instead of a sole sector 5,100 miles)
- Operation (w/o fuel) and Capital cost for additional flight time (at least 3 1/2 hours)
- airport costs in Dubai

This shows another problem of a Hub in Dubai or Qatar. They are well placed only for flights from
Europe to Southeast Asia, not so for any connection from Europe to the Far East (China, Japan,
Korea) where they are by far too much at the south. Even for London to the southern China's Hong Kong the
difference in is still over 1,100 miles !

Aminobwana
 
BigTom
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:51 pm

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 25):
What, the inflight service? Is that really true, and if it is true, how come this is so?

Most of the passengers carried on these routes are low income workers (same thing applies to MNL, Jakarta) so crew have a very stand-offish, sometimes downright rude attitude towards them. This is not unique to EK though, happens on GF too. Sad to say but these nationalities are not always treated well here.

Cheers
 
ravel
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:47 pm

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:29 pm

I might be crazy but I would love to travel on a LCC A380 with 850 passengers. I have no problem with cattle class. It has a certain feeling of, well, actual travelling and I have nothing against a low ticket price.

And... If you compare a Ryanair 738 to a new Emirates-operated LCC A380, I would prefere the latter one, wouldn't you?
 
Joost
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):

Nobody mentioned they would squeeze 853 passengers into that plane...

Well, actually they did. I remember reading an interview already quite old (autumn 2006) with Keith Longstaff, where he expressed interest in a 800+ seat version of the A380.
 
easyas321
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:44 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting EKSkycargo370 (Reply 19):
LCC's are ruining the airline industry,I seriously hope EK don't go down this road,will ruin the reputation of a highly prestigious carrier.

they will clearly define the difference beteen LCc & normal EK probably with a completely different name like QF & JQ.

However, isn't there an opportunity here to have 2 types of carrier on 1 aircraft namely an A380 with 1 deck say EK & other deck an LCC, where there's no moving between decks, so one doesn't see the other.

Also airline could limit number of check in staff by saying LCC pax need to check in 2-4 hours prior to departure & EK pax 1-2 hours prior.

They could board separately thru separate airbridges. LCC pax could board very early & EK whenever they wanted.

Comments?
 
flyorski
Posts: 731
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 am

RE: Emirates Considers Low Cost - Official

Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Easyas321 (Reply 33):
they will clearly define the difference beteen LCc & normal EK probably with a completely different name like QF & JQ.

However, isn't there an opportunity here to have 2 types of carrier on 1 aircraft namely an A380 with 1 deck say EK & other deck an LCC, where there's no moving between decks, so one doesn't see the other.

Also airline could limit number of check in staff by saying LCC pax need to check in 2-4 hours prior to departure & EK pax 1-2 hours prior.

They could board separately thru separate airbridges. LCC pax could board very early & EK whenever they wanted.

This idea opens up numerous possibilities. It would be great if EK actually did that....
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe

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