jfk787nyc
Topic Author
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Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 9:00 pm

Can someone tell me why Air France flies a320 on CDG to TLV.

When EL AL flies 747 or 777 and I believe EL AL has three flights daily.

Even with connecting passangers to TLV British flies double daily 777, Lufthansa flies double daily 747, Swiss flies double daily A340.

I never understood with such a big market Paris to TLV and such a big following with connecting passangers why dont they try to build this route up. It seems very weird to me.
 
1stfl94
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 9:02 pm

Well they fly a 77W into Beirut...
 
kl911
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Even with connecting passangers to TLV British flies double daily 777, Lufthansa flies double daily 747, Swiss flies double daily A340.

I always wondered why AF (A320) and KLM (739) are not flying widebodies to connect to their US flights.
There are just no Skyteam widebodies flying Europe - TLV, but ofcourse Delta and Continental fly US- TLV direct, something Star Alliance and oneworld haven't got. It's just weird that they can't even sustain double daily flights.

KL911
 
flybaby
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
It's just weird that they can't even sustain double daily flights.

AF does fly 2x to TLV: [email protected]:30 and AF [email protected]:35.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 1):
Well they fly a 77W into Beirut...

To Beirut AF flies 1xA321 and 1xA330. Of course, I doubt you'd find anywhere near that volume service from any one carrier from any other European city to Beirut. PAR is the exception, not the rule.

Of course overall TLV is a much larger airport than Beirut. I think the majority of the difference in this particular example comes from there being a lot more jumbo service to TLV over the Atlantic, thus negating the need to connect with as big equipment in a lesser number of European cities. Also, Israel has rather established indegenous service (El Al, Arkia, Sun D'or, Israir, etc.) with a relatively large network that competes well in Europe, plus some of the semi-low cost European carriers fly to Israel, further distributing passengers from many individual European airports instead of having to connect many passengers through large hubs like PAR or AMS.

[Edited 2007-05-03 15:16:39]
 
runway23
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting FlyBaby (Reply 3):
To Beirut AF flies 1xA321 and 1xA330.

BEY is 1xA321, 1xA332 and 1x772/77W.
 
flybaby
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Runway23 (Reply 4):
BEY is 1xA321, 1xA332 and 1x772/77W.

Two things... the 1x777 is not daily and the second thing is that these flights are codeshared with AF so the 2 or 3 flights is the TOTAL number of flights BEY-PAR. When you consider both the AF flights and the widebodies that ELAL flies on PAR-TLV, it's still probably a bigger volume overall.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 10:48 pm

I think it also has to do with politics. France isn't popular in Israel, because it does not share the pro Israel/ anti arabic position of the US/UK and Germany. So it is just a normal destination for AFR, A320 just the right plane.
 
HUYfan
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 10:55 pm

Paris CDG-Beirut

Air France
daily B777-300ER
MEA
daily A330-200
daily A321-200

Regards

Mike
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 11:17 pm

Right, France was always good to Lebanon, MEA is entering SkyTeam because of AirFrance. I also believe that MEA has a daily Paris flight.

But, what does Beirut have to do with Tel Aviv?

So, France has a good thing going in Beirut it's not like that means they can not send widebodies to Tel Aviv.
Yes, Delta & Continental have SkyTeam direct United States to Tel Aviv, But, what if someone with SkyTeam wants better service than Delta, Continental or EL AL I mean they arent really that good anyway. lol

Lebanon is not even really totally a Muslim country so what does it have to do with Tel Aviv?

No other European airline flies widebodies to Beirut?
 
goldorak
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Thu May 03, 2007 11:22 pm

We should not only consider the type of A/C but also the related classes of services. In this region, AF serves BEY, TLV, AMM, DAM and CAI. Currently, only CAI and BEY are served by AF widebodies (A332 and B77W, respectively), that is to say with the "true" (long-haul) business class and even 1st class for the 77W, while the A320 for TLV, AMM and DAM offers only the European business class with the tempo seat slightly wider and the middle seat not sold.

Although, the lie-flat bed offered in J and P on AF is surely not needed for a 5 hours daylight flight, I think this "european J class" service is probably not enough as 5 hrs is becoming to be a "long" flight. BEY is an important destination from/to France due to the important Lebanese community who live in France and due to the stong links between the 2 countries, and this is may be a sufficient justification for AF for sending its best 3 classes-widebody to BEY. However, I agree with other A.netters to say that AF service to TLV could probably sustain more than 2 daily A320, and particularly a widebody service.
 
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breiz
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting FlyBaby (Reply 3):
PAR is the exception, not the rule.

I have now learned that PAR is an official IATA code for Paris, although it does not correspond to any airport.
As we know, CDG and ORY are the airports.
Learning every day!
 
PanAm747
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:44 am

LH has two daily non-stops FRA-TLV, one on a 747-400, and one on an A340. Surprisingly, no non-stops or direct flights from MUC.

LH has only one non-stop FRA-BEY, on an A321, and as was pointed out, it's a 0200 arrival into BEY.

AF has two non-stops per day CDG-TLV, both on an A320 (none from Orly).

AF has three non-stops per day CDG-BEY, one on a 777, one on a 321, and one on a 330. Is one or more of these flights an MEA flight?

Neither website gave any other partner airline information.

LY has two 737-800 flight per day (except Saturdays, of course) TLV-FRA, and three daily flights to CDG - one 767 and two 757's (again, except Saturdays).

MEA (whose website wasn't really clear about the days of travel) has one daily BEY-FRA, and the code-share with AF produces three daily flights. Which ones are MEA and which ones are AF?

Interesting combination of connections between the cities...
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MUCuser
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):

LH has two daily non-stops FRA-TLV, one on a 747-400, and one on an A340. Surprisingly, no non-stops or direct flights from MUC.

Unfortunately due to a lack of traffic rights! LH would love to fly 4 heavies into TLV daily, the demand is there.....
 Sad
 
LY777
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
LY has two 737-800 flight per day (except Saturdays, of course) TLV-FRA, and three daily flights to CDG - one 767 and two 757's (again, except Saturdays).

In general, for TLV-CDG, LY sends 1 757 and 2 767s (-200 or 300).
Until last september, LY used to send 4 777s to CDG per week, now, only once per week, on Friday (due probably to TLV-LAX being upgraded from a 767 to a 777). For Summer, LY will send more 777s and 744s to CDG. Furthermore, LY will receive 2 new 772s, so we'll see more 777s in CDG!!!
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DALCE
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
LH has two daily non-stops FRA-TLV, one on a 747-400, and one on an A340. Surprisingly, no non-stops or direct flights from MUC.

A340-600 to be exact, and the 747-400.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,223,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
WJ
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:37 am

You cant ignore the political aspect of this. Maybe the traffic is there but there are Israelis that will shy away from the French carrier as an act of protest. As a result it has been years since AF sent widebodies in to TLV at the same time LY has been doing well running the wide bodies into CDG.

I really dont understand KLM's move other then the fact that they are a part of AF these days and have no interest in expanding the market. KLM did great business in Israel when they were running the A310's and 767's in there.
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IAD380
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 4:34 am

BA, LH, LX flights to TLV seem to depend on traffic connecting to or from North America. In contrast, TLV seems to be an O&D destination for AF. LY flies widebody aircraft to both LHR and CDG, but single aisle aircraft to FRA, MUC, and ZRH. I assume that LY primarily carries O&D traffic to these five cities. My point is that AF could probably compete with LY by offering widebody aircraft since both airlines rely on O&D traffic on the CDG-TLV route. In the alternative, there may be enough demand for AF to add a third daily flight to TLV.

According to the Israeli Ministry of Tourism, France, far and away, sends more travellers to Israel than any other European country. I know LY flies to MRS. I wonder why no airline offer scheduled flights between Israel and other major French cities, such as NCE or LYS.
 
[email protected]
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:08 am

There is evidently considerable O&D traffic from TLV to both LON and PAR and vice-versa. There is also a lot of competition. However, fares for non-stop TLV-LON/PAR-TLV flights are normally very expensive, often a minimum of $450-500 in economy, despite the flight lasting only between around 4 and 4.5 hours and despite the competition.

There have been a number of rumours, particularly in appropriate newspapers, of Ryanair flying to Tel Aviv; indeed, the last news article I read stated that Ryanair might start flying to Israel this year. That to me seems rather ambitious, unless, of course, the appropriate authorities are very quick to act.

Productivity-wise, it need not be a problem, depending upon where you fly to and from. For example, HHN-TLV-HHN could be done in under 8 hours 45 minutes including a 25- or 30-minute turn, thereby still enabling 2 further rotations in one day. LON-TLV-LON could be done under 10 hours 15 minutes, which could also enable at least 2 more rotations depending on when the flight departs LON. CIA-TLV-CIA could be done in 7 hours 30 minutes, while BGY-TLV-BGY would take under 8 hours 30 minutes. All of those flights could be done using the same crew.

To compare, DUB-TFN-DUB takes 9 hours and 5 minutes.

How would the additional security affect such an operation in terms of cost, time to implement and overall complexity? Would a 25- or 30-minute turnaround still be achievable? It'd be fascinating to study the potential of a low-cost operation to and from TLV.

[Edited 2007-05-03 22:11:20]
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jfk787nyc
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:14 am

There alot alot of Israelis traveling back and fourth between Munich & Frankfurt, Frankfurt could probably sustain 2 x daily 321 and munich 1 daily 321.

But, yes they pick up alot of traffic from United States but, they also pick up alot of traffic from cities all around Europe.
Places that do not have Non-Stop service from EL AL. Everyone here must also understand that there is also a huge Jewish Community in Germany mainly from the Former Soviet Union that fly to Israel very frequently.


In France the French Jews are just very very rich and they just keep on investing money in Israel itself


In Britian you have alot of Jewish people, Plus alot of religious non jewish people that travel to Israel for vacation. Plus,
People who conduct loads of business with Israel.
 
RedChili
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
British flies double daily 777

One 772 and one 763.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Lufthansa flies double daily 747

One 744 and one 346.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Swiss flies double daily A340.

One 343 and one 32X.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
KLM (739) are not flying widebodies

They used to fly a daily 763 before tourism collapsed when the terror war started in 2000. They changed that to a few weekly 737 flights before AF took over KL. Then later, the flight was upgraded to daily, but still a 737.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 18):
Everyone here must also understand that there is also a huge Jewish Community in Germany mainly from the Former Soviet Union that fly to Israel very frequently.

I wouldn't call it huge.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Lemurs
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:26 am

Let's just say you can't ignore France's political relationship to Israel when considering the amount of traffic AF gets to/from TLV. When you consider the Jewish population of France is as large as the rest of Western Europe combined (600k in France, 300k in the UK, 200k in Germany, ~100k combined elsewhere), the statistics start looking even more strange in terms of how few seats they fly daily.

It may not be fair to AF, but it's the reality of the situation. As other's have said, they don't get much connecting traffic from North America either because of direct services available on SkyTeam. LY of course sees the biggest benefit.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
France isn't popular in Israel,

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 9):
In this region, AF serves BEY, TLV, AMM, DAM and CAI.

And you left out THR, which is served with a 4x per week A343
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
goldorak
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
And you left out THR, which is served with a 4x per week A343

oh yes ! sorry for this mistake
 
FOMEA
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
AF has three non-stops per day CDG-BEY, one on a 777, one on a 321, and one on a 330. Is one or more of these flights an MEA flight?

Actually 2 of those Flights are MEA. ( 321 & 332)
AF (777)


From MEA website. (Flights per day)

Departure: 08:55 Paris, France - Charles De Gaulle, terminal 2F
Arrival: 14:00 Beirut, Lebanon - Rafik Hariri International, terminal W
Airline: Middle East Airlines ME206 e
Aircraft: Boeing 777
Operated by Air France

Departure: 10:25 Paris, France - Charles De Gaulle, terminal 2F
Arrival: 15:45 Beirut, Lebanon - Rafik Hariri International, terminal W
Airline: Middle East Airlines ME210 e
Aircraft: Airbus Industrie A321

Departure: 13:40 Paris, France - Charles De Gaulle, terminal 2F
Arrival: 19:00 Beirut, Lebanon - Rafik Hariri International, terminal W
Airline: Middle East Airlines ME212 e
Aircraft: Airbus Industrie A330-200



Regards
F-OMEA
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jfk787nyc
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:32 am

Does anyone know how many Lebanese people live in France?

Out of the 200k Jews in Germany alot of them actually came from Israel and migrated to Germany. Alot of Russians live in Berlin. You also must understand that Israel is also a huge destination for Russian speaking business people all over the world because Israel has one million people there speaking there language.

People would actually be surprised how much business Russia and Israel do togther, Especially when 70% of Russia's billionaires are actually Jewish!
 
a380us
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
something Star Alliance and oneworld haven't got.



Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
British flies double daily 777,

last time i checked they were oneworld

and malev serves with a daily minus friday 736
and iberia with i believ A321's
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting MUCuser (Reply 12):
Unfortunately due to a lack of traffic rights! LH would love to fly 4 heavies into TLV daily, the demand is there.....

Here comes one candidate for the A380 then! Furthermore, ideal for crew training because short!

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
You cant ignore the political aspect of this. Maybe the traffic is there but there are Israelis that will shy away from the French carrier as an act of protest. As a result it has been years since AF sent widebodies in to TLV at the same time LY has been doing well running the wide bodies into CDG.

As a protest for what? Come on! France and Israel are not enemy countries and have never been and hopefully will never be. Your statement is rather insulting to the Israelis honestly, as I expect a vast majority of them to be open-minded enough to acknowlege that France is not an enemy, and that flying AF is a non-issue... And protecting the Lebanese civilians and pacifying Lebanon is in no way against Israel : has there been one single rocket on Israel shot from the Lebanese soil since the French deployment? No, so?

I'd think it has to do with the fact that all their competitors are well established on this route, and AF does not want to adopt an aggressive position on this route but rather focus on other lucrative medium-haul routes where they are more established with less competitors, such as BEY, or W Africa, or YUL to some extent. One could also say why is IB so weak on the USA? And why so few BA routes to Lat Am and so on and so on and so on...
When I doubt... go running!
 
jfk787nyc
Topic Author
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 12:21 pm

I know they are the biggest airline in Europe, I am a SkyTeam member and would love to Fly AirFrance instead of Delta, Continental or EL AL from NYC to Europe.

SkyTeam owns 50% if not more of the international airline business in NYC between Delta & Continental. I believe from a business point of view they should give there customers some sort of consideration and fly a widebody on a route that could turn out to be one of there biggest. SkyTeam members connecting thru Paris to Tel Aviv from all over United States, and picking up there yearly 300000k customers from there base country. In my eyes I believe they would just be able to make a killing on this route. In SkyTeam I believe they are the most premium airline of them all.

Please correct me if I am wrong?
 
Lemurs
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 28):
I know they are the biggest airline in Europe, I am a SkyTeam member and would love to Fly AirFrance instead of Delta, Continental or EL AL from NYC to Europe.

Seriously? You'd rather layover in CDG, with it's maze of busses and terminals, that could last hours, just to get on another airplane and fly 4 more hours...instead of just getting on an airplane and landing at your destination? I know there are lots of people who must do this, but for the life of me I can't imagine anyone would PREFER it. I don't care how great AF's F product is, it's not 4-6 hours better than J on DL or CO for me personally.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
As a protest for what? Come on! France and Israel are not enemy countries and have never been and hopefully will never be. Your statement is rather insulting to the Israelis honestly, as I expect a vast majority of them to be open-minded enough to acknowlege that France is not an enemy, and that flying AF is a non-issue...

It's not nearly that rosy...France has a very long history of denouncing Israel on the international stage, at almost every turn...they're not ememies, but certainly there aren't many Israelis with warm feelings about France. The best you'll do is cool indiference...and cool indiference is not the way to attract a large customer base.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
varig md-11
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:56 pm

one factor to take into consideration is also the competition from non-scheduled flights
when passover and summer come, it's a parade of Arkia, Sundor and Israir planes between France and Israel: I even saw one Israir 757 the other day in NCE!
furthermore AF prefers probably to concentrate its long haul fleet where it can fill the biz class for sure (BEY and CAI)
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TX PY
 
LY777
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 30):
furthermore AF prefers probably to concentrate its long haul fleet where it can fill the biz class for sure (BEY and CAI)

El Al's Biz class is always full on TLV-CDG!
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
varig md-11
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 31):
El Al's Biz class is always full on TLV-CDG

all right, but it doesn't mean AF could do the same with its product, especially if it would sent a 77W with 3 class config.

furthermore the thousands of "family" pax flying charter CDG-TLV are not ready to fly else than Y....lots of them are coming from northern paris area and try to pay the minimum fare
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TX PY
 
flybaby
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:58 pm

I think what concerns Israelis most about France is not the "traditional" European anti-semitism of the past but the large and growing population of muslims there. There has been a marked increase in anti-Jewish incidents in France in the past several years, including some very high profile incidents. The disturbing rise in the frequncy of such incidents is almost wholly attributable to members of muslim community. If you go back 20 or 30 years I think this situation was unthinkable back then, particularly since the trend showed Europeans as a whole moving to a post-WWII society which is more pluralistic and accepting of other cultures/religions.

As an interesing irony... when DL first started flying to TLV 15 years or so ago, they did so through ORY, then CDG (PanAm's old route).
 
kl911
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting A380US (Reply 26):
Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
something Star Alliance and oneworld haven't got.



Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
British flies double daily 777,

last time i checked they were oneworld

and malev serves with a daily minus friday 736
and iberia with i believ A321's

What i meant was that only Skyteam has direct USA-TLV flights, not Oneworld and Star.

Kl911
 
jfk787nyc
Topic Author
Posts: 479
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:22 pm

Pilot's "Palestine" remark upsets Israel


Got to love Italians... read on:


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - An Alitalia pilot has stunned passengers flying to Tel Aviv on Israel's Memorial Day by announcing "Welcome to Palestine, Happy Independence Day to Palestine" before landing, aviation authorities say.

Israel celebrates 55 years of independence on Wednesday after remembering its 21,540 war dead on Tuesday in ceremonies at graveyards across the country.

"(The pilot's comment) was insensitive on a day when thousands of people are at cemeteries," said Pini Schiff, spokesman for Israel's Civil Aviation Authority. He told Reuters the CAA would send a formal complaint to aviation regulators.

Orly Segal, Alitalia's commercial manager in Tel Aviv, said the airline had not yet spoken to the pilot, "but he won't fly to Israel any more -- that's for sure." The pilot's reported remarks did not represent the Italian state airline's views, she said.

Schiff said passengers on the overnight Rome-Tel Aviv flight complained to the cabin crew about the pilot's remarks. Israeli media reported that passengers demanded the pilot come out and explain himself, but he remained in the cockpit.

"Israelis are killing Palestinians every day," Schiff quoted the pilot as telling a local Alitalia employee who later spoke with the Civil Aviation Authority.

Israel and the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have been locked in daily violence since the Palestinian uprising for statehood began in September 2000.

Last July, an Air France pilot referred to his destination, Tel Aviv, as "Israel-Palestine", prompting public calls in Israel for a boycott of the carrier.

Air France chief executive Etienne Rachou later apologised and the airline said the pilot would no longer be allowed to fly the Paris-Tel Aviv route.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
I'd think it has to do with the fact that all their competitors are well established on this route

Thanks YUL for these words of wisdom.

I'd add that AF should be more aggressive in terms of developing the route however.
Take off and live
 
ncelhr
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
According to the Israeli Ministry of Tourism, FraNCE, far and away, sends more travellers to Israel than any other European country. I know LY flies to MRS. I wonder why no airline offer scheduled flights between Israel and other major French cities, such as NCE or LYS.

Israir flies TLV-NCE using one of their newly-delivered A320s
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Sun May 06, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
no non-stops or direct flights from MUC.

LH requested permission to resume MUC-TLV flights, but LY opposed it. I read on A-Net that Israel granted Lufthansa's petition. However, LH has not announced when it will start these flights.

Quoting WJ (Reply 15):
KLM

I think that KL could use its partnership with NW and its AMS hub to connect passengers to or from cities in the United States that probably do not have enough passengers to justify direct flights to TLV. BOS, BDL, IAD, DTW, MSP, IAH, SFO, and SEA are cities that come to mind. For example, there have been repeated rumors that NW has considered starting DTW-TLV flights, but it would make more sense for NW to connect these passengers through AMS. If KL timed its TLV flights to connect with KL or NW flights to certain North American destinations, it could use larger aircraft of its TLV route, or add more frequencies.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1318
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Sun May 06, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
I always wondered why AF (A320) and KLM (739) are not flying widebodies to connect to their US flights.

KL and AF generally don't have as many connecting passengers to TLV because of the US Skyteam market being dominated by CO and DL. DL also sends passengers to Israel through JFK on LY as well. Within Europe, AZ carries a large amount of Skyteam traffic to/from TLV (a key factor for AZ being Israeli government traffic, which switched from LY last year). It's mostly O/D for Israel for LY, so KL and AF take a lot of the UK and O/D for the Netherlands and France.
Home airport now: DCA/IAD
 
amirs
Posts: 1236
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Tue May 08, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 19):
Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
British flies double daily 777

One 772 and one 763.

I heard that it might go up to one 744 and 777.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 39):
KL and AF generally don't have as many connecting passengers to TLV because of the US Skyteam market being dominated by CO and DL.

Again, I wonder why KL does not upgrade its capacity and change its schedule to TLV so its daily flight conveniently connects in AMS with NW flights from the United States. Apparently, NW is interested in the TLV market, but there probably is not enough demand to justify direct flights from its hubs in the United States to TLV. Can anyone explain why KL does not align its flights to TLV with NW flights?

Quoting Amirs (Reply 40):
I heard that it might go up to one 744 and 777.

I think that two daily 777 flights are more likely. BA flew the 777 twice daily to TLV before 2001. Wouldn't replacing the 767 with a 744 amount to an unusually large increase in capacity?
 
MEACEDAR
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 1):
Well they fly a 77W into Beirut...

And they add an extra flight in the summer with a 747. I usually see them in September.

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 7):
Paris CDG-Beirut

Air France
daily B777-300ER
MEA
daily A330-200
daily A321-200

Regards

Mike

Finally, someone got it right.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 8):
also believe that MEA has a daily Paris flight.

They actually have 2, and soon to be 3 as soon as they get their new planes.
 
jfk787nyc
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 2:27 am

MEACEDAR From Lebanon

Sounds very good I am happy that MEA is doing so well on the route!

All, I was trying to ask by this posting,

I still do not understand why Air France flies 77w to Beirut but not to Tel Aviv?

There are 900'000 french jews with investments & housing in Israel. Not counting how RICH the jews are in France.
They can afford to pay $4000 dollars round trip on Business Class. and SkyTeam does not have a really good and luxurious First or Business Class on the route. I mean Delta, Continental & EL AL are not really known for there premier product.

Air France if they want to can make a killing on this route between United States connections and on there own French population.

By Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondent

In 2006, some 732,000 people traveled between the two countries, including 242,000 French tourists who came to visit Israel. The French tourists filed several complaints regarding the high ticket prices, which resulted from a lack of comptetition


That is 2005.47 passengers DAILY traveling between the two countries in 2006.

EL AL is now flying the route 4 times daily on widebodies and average price I have found for September is
406 Euro roundtrip economy.

AirFrance is close to 500 Euro. twice with narrowbodies in September
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 8):
But, what does Beirut have to do with Tel Aviv?

Med coast in the Levant ... largest cities in their respective countries, etc.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 16):
France, far and away, sends more travellers to Israel than any other European country.

The other largest country in Europe is Germany. If you remember the history of the 20th century, there aren't a lot of Jews in Germany, rich or otherwise. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that France dominates the European numbers for travel to Israel.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 25):
You also must understand that Israel is also a huge destination for Russian speaking business people all over the world because Israel has one million people there speaking there language.

People would actually be surprised how much business Russia and Israel do togther, Especially when 70% of Russia's billionaires are actually Jewish!

Right. When I visited Haifa a couple years ago, I sometimes had trouble finding English speakers - signs in hotel lobbies would be printed in Hebrew, Arabic, and Russian!
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5325
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 42):
They actually have 2, and soon to be 3 as soon as they get their new planes.

Not really.
The 4th A332 long awaited by MEA is to replace the A321 on the red-eye flight Paris route(ME209/ME210), but not to add a frequency.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 44):
The other largest country in Europe is Germany. If you remember the history of the 20th century, there aren't a lot of Jews in Germany, rich or otherwise. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that France dominates the European numbers for travel to Israel.

Actually, many Germans travel to Israel. The Jewish population in a country is not the sole or primary factor that determines whether flights to TLV are profitable. Flights to TLV also attract businessmen, Christian pilgrims, secular tourists, academicians, journalists, and other travellers. Some of the most profitable routes are to cities without significant Jewish populations, such as FRA, BKK, HKG, ZRH, BCN, and MAD. Other cities, such as Buenos Aires and Montreal, do not have flights to TLV despite their large Jewish populations.
 
jfk787nyc
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 5:38 am

Israel is a business capital for the Computer Industry

Dated 5/30/2006

Israel's status as a high tech super power was confirmed last week by none other than Bill Gates.

During a whirlwind 24-hour tour to the country, the Microsoft founder and chairman praised the country's universities for its high level of education, the local high tech community for its achievements in fields such as information security, and cited the high rate of computer literacy among Israelis as a prime factor in the country's success.

"Israel is a major player in the high tech world, which explains the considerable contribution of the country not only in the field of high tech startups but also through the R&D centers for companies like Microsoft, Intel and Motorola. We're super-satisfied with the contributions of our R&D center in Haifa," Gates said, referring to Microsoft Israel, which employs 400 people and focuses on marketing, sales and R&D. "The quality of the people here is quite fantastic."

As though he were royalty or a rock star, Gates' visit attracted a slew of attention from both the media and the Israeli high tech world - with thousands of people vying for a spot in the convention hall in Tel Aviv where he addressed Israeli businessmen and touted the country's collective commitment to research and education.

"While startups in Israel are similar to those in Silicon Valley, there are specialists in Israel in fields like information security who get much of their experience from their service in the army. The science and technology curriculum in Israeli universities is also of a very high standard," said Gates. "The level of technological integration in the country is evident. The use of fast speed internet, lap tops and cell phones is advanced here and puts Israel at cutting edge of world technology."

With an eye to the future, one group of people who had no problem nabbing some of Gates' precious time were 45 high school 'whiz kids' selected by Israel's Ministry of Education and Microsoft Israel - the two bodies active in promoting a special project: 30 advanced computer studies learning programs entitled 'Partners in Learning' designed to help thousands of youngsters prepare for university, college or self-built careers in computer sciences.

"It was really our luck to have met him," says Rawan Abbas, 17, giggling like a typical teenager in a telephone call from her home in Nazareth. Abbas, who excels in computer studies, was one of several students from the city's Bishop Riah Educational Campus school chosen to meet Gates.

Abbas and her classmates joined Israeli students from all over the country, including Roni Karp, 17, from Meitar and Amir Abramovitch, 17, from Ramat Hasharon.

Abramovitch, who has been into computer programming since he was 10, was only sorry that he hadn't found the classes earlier. Even though he's considered a computer genius, he says he still has a lot to learn from the courses partially subsidized by Microsoft Israel, a body which donates some $250 million dollars to education in 100 countries around the globe.

"It was surprising and exciting not only to meet the world's richest man but the guy who built one of the strongest empires ever," said Abramovitch who described how Gates delivered multi-layered answers to the eleven questions posed to him during their meeting.

Although Microsoft Corp. is the catalyst behind the development of the advanced computer studies which teaches Abramovitch the ins and outs of Microsoft's NET Framework such as ASP.NET and C#.NET, other computer languages are taught as well, according to Bar Israeli, the manager of Microsoft Israel's education programs

"In Israel, there is an awareness of technology, because more than anything else, our biggest asset is brainpower," she told ISRAEL21c.

Israeli, who says the classes are at the level one would find at many colleges in the US, works one-on-one with some of the teens. She notes that the parents - many working in high tech themselves, - are actively involved in their children's education. "Half of my work is talking with parents involved in school," she said.

The parents of student Roni Karp, who attends once-a-month classes in Ra'anana, helped him from a young age acquire the books and special learning programs to excel as a self-taught computer programmer. Karp is in a yeshiva school program in Israel - a religious track which leaves less time and resources for computer studies. But he decided to learn on his own, and his tenaciousness earned him a meeting with Gates.

While making sure to focus on the future, Gates also kept very much to the present. During his visit, Gates met with upper management from some of Israel's leading high tech companies - including Check Point Software Technologies, Amdocs, Verint Systems, Nice Systems, Alve, and start-ups Actimize, Alive Software and Sapned - to discuss the characteristics of new developments coming out of Israeli high tech.

This was followed by a meeting with some of the chief executives of Microsoft Israel's business partners and then with some 400 Microsoft Israel employees, including those at MSN Israel, and from the company's research and development facility in Haifa.

"People in high tech are very aware that Israel - compared to its small size - has some amazing technological achievements. There is a greater concentration of talented high tech manpower here in comparison to other countries - almost to the extent of Silicon Valley," said Gates.

To strengthen Israeli high tech even further, Gates also signed together with Ehud Olmert an agreement of cooperation with the Office of the Chief Scientist to encourage Israeli start-ups.

"It's no exaggeration to say that the kind of innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business. So many great companies have been started here," Gates said at the signing.

In addition, Gates gave a seminar hosted by Microsoft Israel under the theme 'The New World at Work' which encompassed Gates' vision for future generations of software and its impact on the business environment and governments.

For students Abramovitch, having a visitor like Gates come to Israel boosts morale. "It strengthened my motivation to keep working hard in this field and to spread out to new levels," said the teenager. "He inspired me to walk in his path to great success."
 
MEACEDAR
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 43):
MEACEDAR From Lebanon

Sounds very good I am happy that MEA is doing so well on the route!

All, I was trying to ask by this posting,

I still do not understand why Air France flies 77w to Beirut but not to Tel Aviv?

There are 900'000 french jews with investments & housing in Israel. Not counting how RICH the jews are in France.
They can afford to pay $4000 dollars round trip on Business Class. and SkyTeam does not have a really good and luxurious First or Business Class on the route. I mean Delta, Continental & EL AL are not really known for there premier product.

Air France if they want to can make a killing on this route between United States connections and on there own French population.

By Zohar Blumenkrantz, Haaretz Correspondent

In 2006, some 732,000 people traveled between the two countries, including 242,000 French tourists who came to visit Israel. The French tourists filed several complaints regarding the high ticket prices, which resulted from a lack of comptetition


That is 2005.47 passengers DAILY traveling between the two countries in 2006.

EL AL is now flying the route 4 times daily on widebodies and average price I have found for September is
406 Euro roundtrip economy.

AirFrance is close to 500 Euro. twice with narrowbodies in September

JFK787NYC,

Like you said before in your first post, EL AL, opperates 2 widebody aircraft flights per day. If EL AL is filling up their CDG-TLV flights, which keep in my mind are both operated by widebody aircrafts, then AF should at least upgrade TLV to an A330. Now, if the loads are not that great on EL AL, AF should not even consider such an upgrade. Another reason maybe lack of widebody aircrafts? How are the loads on AF's TLV flight?

The reason AF flies to Beirut with a 777 is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1- BEY serves more of a tourist spot for the French.
2- The loads of people who arrive from other countries, like the United States, who connect at CDG to countinue to BEY are extremely hight, especially during the summer.
3- The timings in which flights from the other countrues arrive in CDG are in tied with AF's BEY flight.

The French who are Jewish, proably favor their own flag carrier, EL AL, instead of AF.

Another reason maybe due to the political differences, in which France favors Lebanon. However, I doubt it, seeing that this is irrevelevant to the aircraft type.

MEACEDAR
 
flybaby
Posts: 227
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

RE: Why AirFrance A320 To TLV?

Wed May 09, 2007 6:23 am

A good portion of the traffic that comes from europe to TLV is connection traffic from across the atlantic. Since there are already two SkyTeam carriers serving TLV over the Atlantic direct to Israel, there's less connection traffic for AF, than say for LH or BA.

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