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alphascan
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
Oh what a joke. How can an airline with its main base at Denver of all places make such an idiotic statement

If you had read carefully, that statement was targeted to company employees not the general public.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
DIA
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting F9darol (Thread starter):
As we reviewed these opportunities it became clear that the E-170 aircraft we currently have flying LAX-SFO could perform much better for us in some of these new markets, or by adding frequency in existing markets that are growing. Remaining nimble and flexible is critical to our future success.

I think this was a key statement; it accounts for the fact that F9 is not dinking around. If they can better utilize their a/c for better $, they will...as they have always done. Will they ever gamble on new routes that they think might pay off? Of course...that is the airline business. Business as usual here. I commend the fact that they are sensitive to the fact that it affects families, travelers, etc. They've owned-up to the fact that they try to do good, but don't always win - such is life.



I look forward to the new cities that will recieve the E170 and Q400s.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
sllevin
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
I live in LA, and I would never even know that F9 flies to SFO if I didn't subscribe to a.net

And the same up here in the Bay Area. Heck, I know people who fly Frontier to DEN once a month and they hadn't known.

Southwest drove UA and AA (and CO!) out of the SJC and OAK to SoCal markets, I truly believe that Frontier could have done so at SFO.

Steve
 
Indy
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 7:16 am

Why would they try and force this route to begin with? Was ego a factor? From the comments that have been made on this site since this route came up it would seem very little research went into this route and they were going to make it work no matter what. Well as most figured the route didn't work. How much money was lost playing this game for the past year? (god has it been that long already?)
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
tripleboom
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 8:17 am

As an employee of F9 I applaud our decision to pull out, and the timing of the pull out. Think and say what you will here, but the company is making a forecasted move. The a/c will be of better use elsewhere in the system and the route is about to get extremely competitive with WN and Virgin America being added to the mix soon.

For those criticizing the "lack" of advertising, think this through. F9 JUST became a major carrier. We are all very proud of that, but we still don't have the name recognition of the AAs and UAa. Saying Frontier Airlines is starting LAX-SFO service for many would be no different than saying Airline X is starting the service. F9, from what I can tell, is getting there in the brand recongnition category, but we're not there yet.

Also think about this. F9 management and the board LOOOOOOONG discusses route planning and a/c utilization and logistics before beginning new service or entering a new market. With that said, I doubt that the board sat down some time two years ago and said, "So, we are going to start this new service in LAX and SFO. By a show of hands, how many people think we should aggresively schedule flights with 132 capacity a/c and then do as little advertising as possible to support the new service in those markets?" Somehow I don't think too many hands flew up.

I apologize for the lethal doses of sarcasm, but seriously, a good chunk of the board and current management has a LOT of time in the airline industry, which is better than a good chunk of the boards and directors and VPs of other major carriers.

All in all, the timing is right, the a/c can be used better, and F9 management, the same management that developed an incredibly popular, expertly timed, beautifully run, Mexico route structure that many tout as having saved the airline, is quite capable of making well researched and planned out decisions. I remain, and will always remain, supremely confident that the people in charge of this airline continually strive to make it better. They make mistakes, they learn from their mistakes, and we get better.
 
N1120A
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 49):
You mean you haven't heard of the battle regarding the fees at LAX?

Which will still be lower than many airports that are not nearly as busy. It is a ridiculous "battle"

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 50):
If you had read carefully, that statement was targeted to company employees not the general public.

And it doesn't matter. The statement is still ridiculous
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 54):
As an employee of F9 I applaud our decision to pull out, and the timing of the pull out. Think and say what you will here, but the company is making a forecasted move. The a/c will be of better use elsewhere in the system and the route is about to get extremely competitive with WN and Virgin America being added to the mix soon.

 checkmark 

Put aircraft where they make money. I was wondering if either F9 or B6 could get a SFO focus city really going pre-Virgin America... I'll have to admit I never thought that the estabilished LCC to jump in would be WN!  faint 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
Quoting AS739X (Reply 2):
inter-CA service.

Intra

Oh... you don't know how much people consider other cities in another state!  Wink

Seriously, this state is huge. "Greater LA" covers almost as much land area as CT.  wideeyed 
Greater LA: 4,850 sq mi, or 12,562 sq km.
vs. 5,549 sq miles for CT,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area

I would have liked to see this run work. If for no other reason it would ensure E-jets in CA!  bigthumbsup 

Again, I'm very curious to know about new F9 routes...  hyper  It will be very interesting...

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 55):
Which will still be lower than many airports that are not nearly as busy. It is a ridiculous "battle

Many people would decribe what is going on between the airlines and LAWA as a battle. Anything that goes to court can be described as a battle.

???

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
N1120A
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 57):
Anything that goes to court can be described as a battle.

Not really. Besides, there is nothing illegal about this.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4450
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 54):
As an employee of F9 I applaud our decision to pull out, and the timing of the pull out. Think and say what you will here, but the company is making a forecasted move. The a/c will be of better use elsewhere in the system and the route is about to get extremely competitive with WN and Virgin America being added to the mix soon.

For those criticizing the "lack" of advertising, think this through. F9 JUST became a major carrier. We are all very proud of that, but we still don't have the name recognition of the AAs and UAa. Saying Frontier Airlines is starting LAX-SFO service for many would be no different than saying Airline X is starting the service. F9, from what I can tell, is getting there in the brand recongnition category, but we're not there yet.

Also think about this. F9 management and the board LOOOOOOONG discusses route planning and a/c utilization and logistics before beginning new service or entering a new market. With that said, I doubt that the board sat down some time two years ago and said, "So, we are going to start this new service in LAX and SFO. By a show of hands, how many people think we should aggresively schedule flights with 132 capacity a/c and then do as little advertising as possible to support the new service in those markets?" Somehow I don't think too many hands flew up.

I apologize for the lethal doses of sarcasm, but seriously, a good chunk of the board and current management has a LOT of time in the airline industry, which is better than a good chunk of the boards and directors and VPs of other major carriers.

All in all, the timing is right, the a/c can be used better, and F9 management, the same management that developed an incredibly popular, expertly timed, beautifully run, Mexico route structure that many tout as having saved the airline, is quite capable of making well researched and planned out decisions. I remain, and will always remain, supremely confident that the people in charge of this airline continually strive to make it better. They make mistakes, they learn from their mistakes, and we get better.

Very well said. I am saddened at the fact that it did not work out, but hey, they gave it a shot. Frontier did not lose a battle, nor did they look to battle. Frontier is in business to make money, and the routes did not work to Frontier's hopes. At least Frontier did not slam into LAX and SFO with the goal of a focus city. Frontier tested the water, and found the water was not warm enough to take the plunge.

I too applaud Frontier for giving it the effort. They could have pulled out long ago, but stuck it out in hopes of trying to make it successful. It now frees up a few birds, and gives opportunity to grow or enhance existing service. I can't wait to see what new routes we will see in coming months. I really think the new venture of the E190's and LYNX is going to really be interesting. I am beyond excited to see the Q400's.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Not really. Besides, there is nothing illegal about this.

I really don't understand your point, I'm sorry. There is an issue at stake of contract law.

http://www.btnonline.com/businesstra...play.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003574449

"The carrier said it and other airlines sued LAWA over the rent increase, claiming it violates its contract with the airport operator. Airlines in court documents said the increases are "unjust, unreasonable and unduly discriminatory" and requested a "refund of all fees determined to be unlawful, plus interest."

To break a contract is to behave illegally. It is up to the court to decide whether the contract has been broken or not.

If the fees are determined to be "unlawful" then contract law has been broken. If not, not.

???

mariner

[Edited 2007-05-04 04:24:59]
aeternum nauta
 
4holer26
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:48 am

Ummm, does this mean I won't be getting a callback from my F9 interview I had at LAX yesterday? Talk about Murphys law.  Wow!
I love the smell of Jet-A in the morning!!!
 
SpencerII
Posts: 259
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:53 am

With regard to Frontiers Marketing efforts, it always amazes me that most who are outside the marketing department at an airline, think that a billboard or multiple billboards, some radio spots and a few Televsions spots will make an air route successful.

I work in marketing for a major worldwide airline, & I can tell you my colleagues in the marketing department at Frontier are some of the industry's finest. There is a lot of marketing that goes on outside the "public media". In The SFO/LAX corridor, I'm sure that the F9 agents were trying to get government contracts--Federal & State- for agencies that move a lot of souls between LAX & SFO. Additonally companies that move a lot of people on business between the two areas is where you would find F9 marketing staff---offering complimentary tickets-contracted pricing, guarantees of seat availability,
special "DID" phone numbers to call in on whereby they are handled differently than the masses etc.

These are all part of marketing your product to those who use products like yours consistantly. What I see as a problem for Frontier was the amount of lift they offered (3 or 4 flights in this busy corrider is not as attractive to a company or agency where you have 10 or 12 to choose from. I'm sure in that market, whatever F9 offered, the other playser would meet or beat. In the case of government offices where you cannot offer items of value to get the contract and price only etc... you can offer more miles in FF programs etc, but in the end, without the choices it would be hard to get those contracts.

F9 was very courageous in attempting this. Thats a hard market to walk into.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 45):
CUN and Cabo are not in Central America.....try Mexico....ditto for the Above Jamaica comment....that is the Caribbean....eeessssshhhhh

I believe he was asking if the Central American cities would be handled in a similar fashion to the existing Mexican ones, not implying that Cabo or Cancun are actually in Central America......eeessssshhhhh  Smile.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
DesertAir
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 9:00 pm

SFO is not an easy market to break into. As I was reading the thread I began thinking about airlines who tested the waters and failed. A few years ago America West began some coast to coast routes with little success. UA, WN and in some markets AS are the big names in inter-California travel. It is difficult for new kids to move in.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 9:07 pm

For an idea of how F9 was doing in the LAX-SFO market, recently published DOT traffic data shows breakdown of market share and average one-way fares during the 4th quarter.

Airline - Market Share - Average one-way fare
UA - 64% - $120
AA - 25% - $101
F9 - 5% - $59
AS - 4% - $98
Other - 2% - $98

I'd would presume others include America West/US Airways via their PHX/LAS hubs.

Amazing to see how little pricing traction F9 was able to secure as UA manages to command double the one-way fare premium.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BN727
Posts: 83
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Fri May 04, 2007 11:15 pm

Don't be shocked if Southwest conveniently decides to not fly SFO-LAX....
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Bn727 (Reply 66):
Don't be shocked if Southwest conveniently decides to not fly SFO-LAX....

 checkmark  I doubt Southwest would touch SFO-LAX simply for the fact that they are maxed out at LAX gate wise.

SWA LAX operations have been stuck at about 110 daily operations since pre 9/11. To pull off a high frequency LAX-SFO operation the carrier would have to draw down frequencies and canalize establised LAX services.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5293
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 30):
Has MEM-LAS/MCO also been axed?

Hasn't started yet, but after it does, i don't see it lasting too long.. they tried to pull crap like that on the LAX-MSP route, NW wasn't as lean and mean then as it is now.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
I live in LA, and I would never even know that F9 flies to SFO if I didn't subscribe to a.net. They did a piss poor job of marketing. I listen to two of the top radio stations out here, and never 1 ad. B6 has had ads, even Expressjet out of Ontario. Never F9.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 39):
IN LOS ANGELES. Sorry, but I live here. I travel a lot. I drive a lot. I watch TV. I listen to the radio. There was almost no advertising that this route exists. I hear ads for other airlines. I see them. I didn't see anything for Frontier.

I live in LA as well, (right by LAX) and I used to see the "Fly three fly one free" stuff all of the time. They had a billboard near LAX and I used to see their adds on taxis all of the time. That being said, I never saw much of their stuff on the other side of the 405, but in West Los Angeles where I live, I would see it frequently.

Its a shame that it didnt work, but LAX-SFO is a highly saturated and competitive market.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 67):
I doubt Southwest would touch SFO-LAX simply for the fact that they are maxed out at LAX gate wise.

How close to maxed out is WN in San Diego....gatewise??
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
A330300
Posts: 509
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 11:37 am

Looks like the 2x daily SFO-LAS flights will be a casualty of the cut as well. All inventory starting from July 10 and beyond is zeroed out. Looks like Frontier is truly ceding to Virgin America - July 10 coincides roughly with the VX launch.
 
Trvlr
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 70):
How close to maxed out is WN in San Diego....gatewise??

I think I remember someone on this site saying that WN had plans to go to 100 flights/day within the near future. They're very close now (91 flighs), and SFO-SAN could probably bump that figure up to 95 or 96.

Currently, Southwest operates out of 10 gates at SAN. A while ago, I did some quick calculations on gate usage at WN's top 10 stations and found that the airline basically achieves 13 flights/gate/day at OAK. Unless SAN's geographic position necessitates more concentrated peak times, it seems there's still room to grow.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Sun May 06, 2007 1:56 pm

Lindbergh's 10 WN gates are currently handling 95 daily op's; this will increase to 96 on 6/04 (with the start-up of the new HOU flight.) The expected SAN-SFO flights in the fall should easily get us over the 100 flight threshold. That will then have SAN at the "optimum" WN gate-utilization level of right around 10 flights/day/gate.

The "10 flights per gate rule" is not hard and fast of course: OAK (as of my last count as of 5/04/07) operates 143 flights thru 13 gates, LAX uses its 11 gates to push 120 flights and LAS is apparently using 21 gates for their 231 flights! (Those stations are all right at about 11 flights/gate/day.) Therefore I would not be surprised to see SAN easily grow to about 110 flights but how much beyond that is a very big question mark; the major unknown is whether any kind of gate expansion is desired, possible, or being planned. Given the state of Lindbergh expansion of any kind, well...  banghead 

bb
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Tue May 08, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting A330300 (Reply 71):
Looks like the 2x daily SFO-LAS flights will be a casualty of the cut as well.

 checkmark  Yes, I saw a F9 document today indicating the discontinuation of the SFO-LAS flights as well. Big drop in activity for the F9 SFO station.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Tue May 08, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 74):
Yes, I saw a F9 document today indicating the discontinuation of the SFO-LAS flights as well. Big drop in activity for the F9 SFO station.

But - that isn't new. That was announced with the other. It's been in the press.

Frontier - like Alaska with SFO-SAN - appears to be getting out of the way of the looming battles.

I know I would.  Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Tue May 15, 2007 2:07 pm

As an update to my post in Reply 65 here is the latest market share information for carriers in the LAX-SFO market.

Interestingly, market share percentage have remained just about the same, however UA, AA and AS saw yields decline during the quarter by about 10% due continued pricing competition from F9 offering $59 fares.

Airline - Market Share - Average one-way fare
UA - 63% - $108
AA - 24% - $90
F9 - 7% - $60
AS - 4% - $90
Other - 2% - 81

Average daily LAX-SFO one-way passengers:1311
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dacman
Posts: 380
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RE: Frontier To Discontinue SFO-LAX

Tue May 15, 2007 11:50 pm

Looks like I will have to go for a ride very soon and log my first -170.

Michael
(Dacman)
LAX / LGB Local
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