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User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16319
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 42):
The modifications to the floor when necessary are not a "false" structure, and the only outward difference is that there are two or four additional seat tracks.

When I got the timber clip lock floor done at home, they called that a false floor because it was laid ontop of the concrete floor. The modification that I was told about was described was the floor (the big flat bit) was placed ontop of the existing structure, and that big flat bit had the new seat tracks attached to it for the new F & J product.

Call it what you want, the big flat bit I walk on I call a floor, and that was modified to accommodate the seats.

I was told it was done that way as you do not need to reconfigure the underlying floor beams using that procedure.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 42):
And I'm told the most difficult thing is working with the Ti seat tracks as special tools and handling are needed in order to avoid corrosion.

Ti is one of the most stable structural materials about, the reason why it is used for attaching it to composites in the first place.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 42):
Negative, that is a track distance. The effective distance was around 5,400nm. We had a 70-100kt tail wind with us most of the way...

That was the missing piece of the puzzle, it could not do a "6,230nm" nil wind without restriction, which is all he was saying to me.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 42):
Gotta give that one a "so what". Show me an operator that needs 130,000lb+ revenue payloads on a 777-300ER, on a regular basis.

You don't get 130,000lb+ of revenue payload above 5500 nm, which was the point of the comment, it is MTOW limited.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 47):
Again absolute rubbish. All this thread did was undermine Zeke's credibility even further. The less we say about your credibility the better.

The guy who told me that only has about 12,000 hrs in command of wide body boeings, and several years on the 777 fleet at SQ, he and I have street credibility in this industry as we are the one strapping ourselves into the aircraft and taking the final responsibility for the way they are loaded.

When was the last time you have offloaded fuel for payload ? made a fuel decision ? or stopped a loader from putting too much on an aircraft because your MTOW or MZFW limited ?

A.net is that funny artificial world where people dissect every word like post-mortem review to find a hidden meaning in a CVR tape.

How about just taking the comment on face value, the aircraft WILL be MTOW limited over that route in that direction, the payload/range graph shows that clearly.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 48):
Otherwise, why make the comment?

It was exactly what he told me, I have seen many people on this thread try an reinvent english, add words, invent second means, and even admit what I said was obvious just to be difficult.

Please read the comment literally, with no hidden agenda, in the context to the quote that was replied to.

They guys flying the machine in question just told me as it is, and I believe what they say over anyone here. They sign for the ship for each flight, they are in the drivers seat to be able to compare the OEW and payloads across their fleet.
 
pygmalion
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 51):
When I got the timber clip lock floor done at home, they called that a false floor because it was laid ontop of the concrete floor. The modification that I was told about was described was the floor (the big flat bit) was placed ontop of the existing structure, and that big flat bit had the new seat tracks attached to it for the new F & J product.

Again you selectively read and don't try to understand. As WBP stated, the floor modifications are all to the underlying structure adding new seat track sections to the existing floor. In your home floor example, its as if the contractor went under your house to add a short joist or two. I have seen floor plates used on the A340 for heavy first class seats, they are not used by SQ on the 773ER. The level of the floor is unchanged. NO plates. There are a couple cutouts in the floor panels to let the seat tracks poke through from underneath, but that is the same as the normal attach points.

So, Zeke again, No Big Flat bits. No false floor. Read carefully, no false floor, just a slightly modified regular one.
 
2wingtips
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:42 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 51):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 47):
Again absolute rubbish. All this thread did was undermine Zeke's credibility even further. The less we say about your credibility the better.

The guy who told me that only has about 12,000 hrs in command of wide body boeings, and several years on the 777 fleet at SQ, he and I have street credibility in this industry as we are the one strapping ourselves into the aircraft and taking the final responsibility for the way they are loaded.

When was the last time you have offloaded fuel for payload ? made a fuel decision ? or stopped a loader from putting too much on an aircraft because your MTOW or MZFW limited ?

Ahhh, you play the arrogant and superior "I am a pilot" card....................again. It is one of your favourites. It's all about credibility and others in this thread, obviously in the industry(Philsquares/WBP) reek of credibility. Unfortunately, in my eyes, you don't.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 51):
A.net is that funny artificial world where people dissect every word like post-mortem review to find a hidden meaning in a CVR tape.

The way I read and interpreted the post was definitely like you had a hidden agenda. I don't think I was the only one to interpret your words that way either.
As an aside, why don't you source the tables you copy in? Are they your private tables or are you just "omitting" to cite the reference? You consistently do this.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 33):
Floor and seat track modifications are common for wider F & J seats, we have just had a 744 modified in China for our new product. AFAIK the 773ER has a composite floor structure, I am told it is easier to place another floor ontop of that for seats with wider attachments points and/or different cabin layouts.

This is really and adaptor kit. The bolt pattern for the wider F&J seats does not match up to the existing pattern, and it is expensive to put a new bolt pattern in; hence the use of an adaptor plate.

This is far different to a structurally enhancedment needed to improve the strength of the floor so that it is strong enough to carry heavy seats; I took it from your original comment regarding weight that the standard T7 floor is to weak to carry the heavier seats and hence further weight was added strengthening the floors.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 51):
When I got the timber clip lock floor done at home, they called that a false floor because it was laid ontop of the concrete floor.

That is what is called a "FLOATING" floor i.e: it is placed on top of an existing structural floor and had no other function than to look good and is not mechanically attached to the base floor.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 51):
How about just taking the comment on face value, the aircraft WILL be MTOW limited over that route in that direction, the payload/range graph shows that clearly.

If you had said this in the first place, everyone would have spent time answering Z's original question.  bigthumbsup 

iwok
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14526
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 51):
Again you selectively read and don't try to understand. As WBP stated, the floor modifications are all to the underlying structure adding new seat track sections to the existing floor.

About the false floor Brittax Rumbold told me they were forced to introduce a false floor for the Club World seats.

FAA approval Reynard false floor (previous VS Upper Class) http://www.caa.co.uk/aandocs/27312/27312000000.pdf
 
Pieinthesky
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:30 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 8:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 38):
CDG and LAX seem like the most obvious candidates for long-haul expansion.

CDG is already down for additional flights from Northern Winter according to this :

http://www.sqtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1132
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16319
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Mon May 07, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 52):
Unfortunately, in my eyes, you don't.

Thats you opinion, and your welcome to it, I can respect that. The only opinion's I care about is that of the passengers I carry.

BTW you said "about credibility and others in this thread, obviously in the industry(Philsquares/WBP) reek of credibility", you may recall this comment...

Quote:
Sorry again, but this is nonsense. "Limited" means what? You can't use MZFW? What an incredible non sequitur! Explain exactly why it is necessary to be able to realize 60t payloads SIN-CDG on a passenger airplane? Fact is that only two airplanes in the world can use MZFW over that distance. Fact is the only aircraft carrying more payload over the route than 777-300ER are freighters...and they have to stop for fuel somewhere...and nobody is complaining...

Lets see, "Sorry again, but this is nonsense. "Limited" means what? You can't use MZFW?", the Boeing payload/range chart clearly shows that the aircraft is MTOW limited over that range, it also has a little remark attached to the MTOW, "Highest available weight, loading restrictions apply above 750K MTOW (777-200LR) and 760K MTOW (777-300ER)"

And ... "Fact is that only two airplanes in the world can use MZFW over that distance.", the 772ER/772LR/ 342/343/345/346/744/744ER/A380 can use MZFW over 5000+ nm distance, and I would not be surprised if there was more.

And "Fact is the only aircraft carrying more payload over the route than 777-300ER are freighters...and they have to stop for fuel somewhere...and nobody is complaining...", considering the 744, 346, 380 can carry more structural payload then the 773ER, and can fly similar distances or further at max structural payload , the possibility exists that the statement may not be accurate.

And finally,

"Indeed seat track modifications are common and I've seen them for both 777-200ER and 777-300ER alike, but it's a long way from a "false floor". It may be semantics to you but your terminology is not accurate to describe what is being done. The modifications are functional structural strengthening to the floor and seat tracks, very simple. No need for such dramatic terms that conjure up strange images, at least to me."

Thanks to Keesje for his link....

Quote:
Installation of Flooring M/747/294 The seat design necessitates that a false flooring system is installed. Modification M/747/294 installs the false floor panels between seats. This also installs underlay in the aisles with carpet covering the entire system to give a clean%u2019 floor.

Same style application, same terminology.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 52):
The way I read and interpreted the post was definitely like you had a hidden agenda.

Given your hostile posts in just about every thread to me, you are the one with the preconceived bias, you read my posts thinking I have a hidden agenda with every post before you even have read what was said.

I might add you are not the only one to attack me like that, ikramerica also did that in another thread recently.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 52):
As an aside, why don't you source the tables you copy in?

Generally I create the html code from scratch in notepad and copy it into the browser, the html code is easy to write. I generally dont use any fancy text or table codes as the parser in the forum is unpredictable as to what html code it will and will not accept. If its a big table, I use the text concatenate function in excel to combine the tags and text, then edit the end result in notepad.

I have some ability in that area, and if you have seen posts of mine in the site related forum that would have become evident, and from what I have seen, I think I was one of the first to do them on this site.

I did recently post a table for flights to REP, the data came from a query of system I have on my pc, which I then edited the html code in notepad so it works properly in this forum, that is as close to copying a table into the forum as I have come.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 54):

Thanks.
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 1999 9:23 am

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Tue May 08, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 56):
And "Fact is the only aircraft carrying more payload over the route than 777-300ER are freighters...and they have to stop for fuel somewhere...and nobody is complaining...", considering the 744, 346, 380 can carry more structural payload then the 773ER, and can fly similar distances or further at max structural payload , the possibility exists that the statement may not be accurate.

The possibility is very low...In theory 747-400 can carry higher payload but in practice it's not the case. Most 747-400's in service have operational OEW's in the range of 415-430,000lbs and MZFW of 535,000, 542,500, or 565,000lbs as the high option. Most of the ships operating in the world at this point use the 535,000lb option. Using simple math, operational max structural payload comes out to 105-120,000lbs which is much lower than the 777-300ER operational max structural payload of 135-140,000lbs...For SIN-CDG a typical 747-400 is limited to a ZFW of 519-520,000lbs (can be greater or lower with season) and would thus be only to manage a high average of about 105,000lbs. As I stated before the 777-300ER manages a greater payload than that on a regular basis and in this case would do so burning approximately 30% less fuel than the 744...The A380 as it were is not yet in service...

Quoting Zeke (Reply 56):
the Boeing payload/range chart clearly shows that the aircraft is MTOW limited over that range, it also has a little remark attached to the MTOW, "Highest available weight, loading restrictions apply above 750K MTOW (777-200LR) and 760K MTOW (777-300ER)"

That's a nice trick and another non sequitur, do you know what those restrictions are? How and if the effect operational loads at those TOW?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 56):
Same style application, same terminology.

No, not same style and application. That modification is based on the design of the seat an not it's weight and the "false floor" as it were has to be used because the standard panels won't fit when the seat is installed. The lowered floor has to be done because the rails that the seat moves on won't clear the standard level floor. It has nothing to do with maintaining the weight distribution of the seat within structural limits which is what I was talking about and is not a seat track modification. I would assume that for this particular model seat, which I am not totally familiar with, most every aircraft would have to be modified in a similar way unless it was not necessary to have floor panels in the first place or the seat tracks were sufficiently tall enough...

Now if on the CX 777-300ER's all they had to do is drop the floor to clear the seat rails that's not a major undertaking. If additional seat tracks had to be added then that is an entirely different animal...Please let us know which was the case, structural strengthening or dropping the floor panels to accommodate special seats.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 56):
And ... "Fact is that only two airplanes in the world can use MZFW over that distance.", the 772ER/772LR/ 342/343/345/346/744/744ER/A380 can use MZFW over 5000+ nm distance, and I would not be surprised if there was more.

Not over an effective air distance of 6,250nm, which I was referring to, with the exception of the 777-200LR, A340-500, 747-400ER, of which there are only six examples, and the not yet in service A380. None of the further exapmples can fly at MZFW over the effective distance specified. Additionally none of those aircraft have the kind of "balance of space" the 777-300ER offers between the passenger cabin and the cargo holds. This is what has allowed operators to dramatically increase revenue payloads on routes where 777-300ER has replaced 747's and -200 777's.

Against the A380 higher total payload is a foregone conclusion, but again the airplane is not yet operating commercially, however I would be extremely surprised to find that it would be carrying more cargo by weight or volume as it has one less loadable LD7 position than 777-300ER, and carries up to 75% more passengers using more of the holds for baggage. Typically in service 777-300ER have 10-11 useable pallet positions, depending on passenger configuration, with 100% passenger load factor. For A380 to match that it would have an unaaceptably low load factor of around 55-60%. With operational OEW expected to be 280-290t and full passenger loads 25-35t becomes the upper limit for cargo ACL, but as useable positions would be 5-6...maybe 7 pallets, average cargo densities won't get you appreciably near those loads usually.



-widebodyphotog
 
pygmalion
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Tue May 08, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 56):
And finally,

"Indeed seat track modifications are common and I've seen them for both 777-200ER and 777-300ER alike, but it's a long way from a "false floor". It may be semantics to you but your terminology is not accurate to describe what is being done. The modifications are functional structural strengthening to the floor and seat tracks, very simple. No need for such dramatic terms that conjure up strange images, at least to me."

Thanks to Keesje for his link....

Quote:
Installation of Flooring M/747/294 The seat design necessitates that a false flooring system is installed. Modification M/747/294 installs the false floor panels between seats. This also installs underlay in the aisles with carpet covering the entire system to give a clean%u2019 floor.

Same style application, same terminology.

Again, you quoted Keesje who linked a VS 747-400 document... How is that applicable to the 773ER at SQ we were discussing??? I never said that false floors dont exist... I know VS uses them on the A340 as well. But, again, the SQ 773ER does not for this application.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15174
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Tue May 08, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 52):
The way I read and interpreted the post was definitely like you had a hidden agenda. I don't think I was the only one to interpret your words that way either.

Context is not just based on what is written but based on past statements. This is why people "read more" into what Zeke wrote than he was "intending" to mean.

Of course, one has to wonder what the point of his post was if it wasn't to imply something negative through omission of facts. After all, saying that the 77W goes out "limited" is like saying the sky is blue. It's not news because except for the ULH planes on offer, ALL planes go off limited on a 5800nm westbound route into winds, even his beloved A340-600...
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Range Of SQ's 777-300ER

Tue May 08, 2007 4:22 am

Since this thread has gone way off the flight path of the original topic, it is now being locked.

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