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Asturias
Posts: 1977
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 99):
Now you say FI claims the picture is only of a new gearbox placement. Please, by all means, do quote from the article where FI makes this particular claim.

Mmm not now, in all my posts. It is also clear as day in the article. I refuse to believe that anyone who can actually operate a computer, hold a credit card and post on forums can be this daft, so I'm assuming you're being intentionally obtuse.

That's not very nice, and I'll leave you to your ponderings.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 99):
Now you say FI claims the picture is only of a new gearbox placement. Please, by all means, do quote from the article where FI makes this particular claim.

Jeepers, kids, do you want to take this to private message and stop arguing about whether or not it is an official pick or not? Let's get back on topic...  Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
MD-90
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 43):
I don't know why, but that reminds me of a possum.

Oh lord, can you imagine the protests if Airbus does build the XWB like that and someone on a.net nicknames it the Opossum? I can already imagine the complaining...

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 55):
Yeah, I would have also thought the bullet shape would be more aerodynamic.

Ironically, fairly blunt noses are actually quite efficient.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting LVISA (Reply 49):
It also looks a bit like the Space Shuttle

Kind of like this?

Big version: Width: 445 Height: 374 File size: 46kb
A350 Orbiter


Lighten up everybody!!  Smile

(and I do hope that a parody of FI's graphic qualifies as fair use...)
 
n844aa
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 103):
Kind of like this?

Hmm, I like it -- skipping right over CFRP and going straight for RCC.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
Mmm not now, in all my posts. It is also clear as day in the article. I refuse to believe that anyone who can actually operate a computer, hold a credit card and post on forums can be this daft, so I'm assuming you're being intentionally obtuse.

That's not very nice, and I'll leave you to your ponderings.

Okie dokie.

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 101):
Jeepers, kids, do you want to take this to private message and stop arguing about whether or not it is an official pick or not? Let's get back on topic... Smile

Apologies if you are offended or annoyed.
 
dank
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 96):
In my case, it's because, as an aviation enthusiast, in some ways I would prefer that aircraft were indeed chosen for their aesthetics and the original 7E7/787 design would have been the one going forward and Concorde would still be flying across the Atlantic.

Indeed. I didn't mean to call you out on this one. It's more the "boy Airbus (or Boeing) is really screwing things up because they are choosing some boring design, don't they know that they are going to sell fewer planes because of it..." crowd that I don't get. Or the "boy this just shows that Airbus doesn't know what they are doing" responses. I guess that neither Boeing or Airbus know what they are doing because they don't stick to the original artist conceptions.

On a separate note, the counter idea to them considering going with a 380 style nose because it would save design money is that by going with the wider fusealge, Airbus has been able to open up the posibilities a bit more. IIRC, it would have been nearly impossible to put the overhead crew compartments in the 330-wdith 350, so by widening the fuselage they have been able to relocate the crew rest. Originally, it may have seemed easier to not deviate much in design of the lower lobe from the original 350 plans (when did putting the pilot rest directly beneath the cockpit make it's first appearance in the 350 revision timeline? ; regardless that would have only been an incremental change)... Either way, I don't think there's a whole lot to read into this article, other than Airbus has a number of possible nose arrangements that they are considering, and it may or may not look like the original conceptions, more 380 style, or something else.

cheers.
 
787engineer
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
The XWB's cockpit windows were its best feature.

If the cockpit windows was its best feature, the A350XWB is in a world of trouble  Wink

Quoting HMan (Reply 14):
It is an argument that airlines don't care about the looks of an aircraft but on the other hand, look at busses, trams, (passenger-) locomotives, airport terminals... . All of those could be just square boxes if it was just about pure economics.

At some level they do, maybe not conciously, but if both products are essentially equal economically, I believe the better one will out. There's a reason better looking people generally make it further up the corporate ladder; it's just a fact of life.

I kind of liked the original A350 XWB nose, it really showed innovation. An airport filled with 787s and A350XWBs with it's original nose would be a sight to see  Smile.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 103):
Kind of like this?

Good one  thumbsup 
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:16 pm

The picture is clearly a Flight rendition - it even says (c)Reed Business Information (Reed is the publisher of FI) on it. Looking at FI's Editorial information, Tim Bicheno-Brown is FI's Senior Editorial Artist. So, IMHO, we actually have no idea of what the real version looks like, just this Flight "guess".

95% of this thread is, what we would call round here, a storm in a tea-cup (others might call it BS). Then again, this is a.net! wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 108):
So, IMHO, we actually have no idea of what the real version looks like, just this Flight "guess".

Hmm, this humble pie is tasty! yummy 

I have received email confirmation from the author of the FI article that their rendition is taken directly from an Airbus CAD drawing of one of the nose configurations under consideration. So there we have it from the horse's mouth - this is indeed an accurate representation of one possible nose configuration for the A350.

The Airbus CAD drawing will be available on http://www.flightglobal.com some time later today.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 109):
have received email confirmation from the author of the FI article that their rendition is taken directly from an Airbus CAD drawing of one of the nose configurations under consideration

OMG,  Sad  Sad I first thought that was a FI own rendering. Da*n this nose is the most beatiful nose (apart the 757 nose) i've ever seen. At least i hope it gets a pretty 78-style nose.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 10:20 pm



Picture: Airbus’s CAD drawing of revised A350 XWB nose study
By Max Kingsley-Jones


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...wing-of-revised-a350-xwb-nose.html

This is the computer aided design (CAD) drawing of the Airbus A350 XWB’s forward fuselage from which Flight International has produced its rendition of the new nose shape being studied for the long-range twinjet.

The CAD drawing was shown to journalists last month by Didier Evrard, executive vice-president of the A350 programme, during the airframer’s annual technical press briefing in Toulouse.

It illustrates the A380 nose landing gear bay configuration that has been incorporated into the A350 as the manufacturer refines its design.

The graphic also shows that the A380’s six-window flight deck glazing configuration is being studied for the A350, which in all published images until now has featured a simpler but more angular four-panel layout.

Airbus confirms that the A380-inspired flight deck shape is “one of several studies” it is working on, but it has not yet frozen the design.

“There have been a number of trade-offs in the nose area, enabling us to maximise the volume of the cockpit and avionics bay while optimising aerodynamics and the positioning of the nose landing gear,” says Evrard.


Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 10:36 pm

Until now I didn't think it was possible for Airbus to design and uglier plane since the A380....I was wrong.

[Edited 2007-05-08 15:37:39]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 10:37 pm

Until now I didn't think it was possible for Airbus to design and uglier plane since the A380....I was wrong.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 112):
I was wrong.

........As usual  Wink

I will have a bet with anybody that A350 wont look like taht picture, its horrible. They could incorporate the A330 windows just as easily. Its just a study, Im pretty sure they will go for windows like the ones thet we are used to.
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 108):
95% of this thread is, what we would call round here, a storm in a tea-cup (others might call it BS). Then again, this is a.net! wink

Yes, indeed.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 109):
I have received email confirmation from the author of the FI article that their rendition is taken directly from an Airbus CAD drawing of one of the nose configurations under consideration. So there we have it from the horse's mouth - this is indeed an accurate representation of one possible nose configuration for the A350.

Which is what the original article in question made clear right from the very beginning: "Airbus is evaluating a more conventional nose shape for the A350 XWB derived from that of the A380 as it continues to refine the twinjet's design, Flight International magazine exclusively reveals in its 8 May issue."

Later: "Airbus says the A350's new nose shape is "one of several design studies" it is working on, but has not yet frozen the design."

Throughout there's mention of aerodynamic tweaks, refinements, wind tunnel tests, etc., and from what Airbus has said about the A380 nose, it's rather slippery, aerodynamically, demonstrating once again the problems of trying to judge a book by its cover.

So, has a full rendition come to light anywhere? Can we see this version of the nose attached to the rest of the plane?
 
aminobwana
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 6):
Interestingly enough they cut off the second part of the article saying that they have increased the internal diameter to 559 cm and Leahy says customers are asking AB to look at high density 10-abreast seating.

- n1786b

This is interesting. Can you provide the text of this second part ?? Thanks in advance

Aminobwana
 
bells
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 12:50 am

Here's the link to the CAD drawing of the A350 nose:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...wing-of-revised-a350-xwb-nose.html
 
Lemurs
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 2:14 am

As other's have said, there is something to say about aesthetics when it comes to people's visceral reaction to airplanes. It shouldn't be in the top-10 list of factors Airbus is concerned with, but it should be on the list somewhere. People are naturally attracted to the graceful organic shapes of airplanes, so having a pleasing design isn't just a waste of time. That nose is decidedly less pleasing to the eye, as evidenced by the fact that everyone here seems to agree on it. What does it say when everyone agreeson A.net? That there are some reasonably objective criteria for beauty that you can discover.

That said, Airbus will go with the design that gives the A350 the best combination of flexibility, aerodynamics, internal usefulness, etc...but the fact that everyone agrees it's disappointing should say something. Boeing went out of their way to essentially semi-apologize when they revised the 787 to look more conventional, because they knew they had a viscerally exciting design that people were drawn to...they also went out of their way to keep as many of the styling cues as they could without sacrificing performance, hence the still-interesting nose. Airbus should take some cues from those decisions.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
EA772LR
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 2:33 am

"The same thing happened when the 7E7 morphed into the 787 at final configuration. Fashion and styling got tossed out of the "window" in favor of economics. Not a bad thing afterall. Smile"

However Boeing managed to find that fine line between economics, and an incredibly nice looking aircraft in the 787!  Silly
Airbus's original 350XWB was by far the best looking aircraft Airbus has designed, and it seemed like that design would be a very efficient aircraft.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
ODwyerPW
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 7:13 am

777 basically has a 767 nose.
No foul. Using the A380 nose on the A350 is good.
learning never stops.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 120):
777 basically has a 767 nose.

No... it HAS a 767 nose with new bits stuffed inside as a cost saving measure.

The 777 only had the A340 to fight, and Boeing was in a bad place when it did the 777.

The question is can Airbus afford to sacrifice operational economics for production economics. Its a tough question... but given fuel costs of today its going to be hard to tell Airlines that that 1% drag reduction was worth less than 1% off the cost of the frame. If gas was still $20 a barrel it would be much easier to sell.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 116):
Quoting N1786b (Reply 6):
Interestingly enough they cut off the second part of the article saying that they have increased the internal diameter to 559 cm and Leahy says customers are asking AB to look at high density 10-abreast seating.

- n1786b

This is more interesting than the nose.

If true it means Airbus is essentially abandoning the 787 market.

I guess they know what they are doing, but they were late with 787 competitor and looks like they could be early with 777 replacement.

Timing is important, and not just in politics.

Ruscoe
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 121):
The question is can Airbus afford to sacrifice operational economics for production economics.

How exactly are they doing this? The article makes it clear that this is just one of the nose configurations under consideration. You seem to think they're saying - lets just stick the A380 nose on the front, we'll save some money and screw fuel-burn and aerodynamics.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 121):
Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 120):
777 basically has a 767 nose.

No... it HAS a 767 nose with new bits stuffed inside as a cost saving measure.

Does that mean its not a 767 section 41? Not as if it matters, because it works.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 121):
The 777 only had the A340 to fight

and the MD11, the shortcomings of which worked to the 777s advantage (AA, DL, etc)

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 123):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 121):
The question is can Airbus afford to sacrifice operational economics for production economics.

How exactly are they doing this?

Thats what I'd like to know. Some people seem to be taking it as given that the A350 will end up flying around with the nose of the A380. Its just a design study, aircraft go through numerous studys in their design phase. One of the early design studies for the A380 consisted of twin A340 fuselages mated side by side, rather than the eventual twin deck layout.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Wed May 09, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 124):
One of the early design studies for the A380 consisted of twin A340 fuselages mated side by side, rather than the eventual twin deck layout.

It was mentioned in the Discovery channel program about the A380 - it looked really cool. They also showed this whacky idea that they had to transport A380 wings from Broughton to TLS strapped to the back of an A340.

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