khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 23):
B777 not pretty??? What's not pretty about it???

It's fuctional looking. To me the lines indicate cheapness in design. The forward fuselage slope to the cockpit is sudden, not gradual (due to the use of the 767 section). The aft fuselage also seems to be simplistic. In my view, the 777 really does look like a tube with a nose and tail stuck on. The irony is that is pretty much what an airliner is. It's just that some aircraft look more "designed" than others, like there was a lot of thought put in by caring people. The 777, to me, lacks graceful lines. IMO.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 33):
To me the 380 nose looks like an, ample, matronly, low slung woman's breast. The new 350 nose looks a bit more perky -- but it still looks like a breast.

Care for a cigar?  Wink

I dare say that is one of the more interesting descriptions of the nose, and I can certainly see the resemblence.

To me this particular nose shape/cockpit window arrangement reminds me of the Space Shuttle right down to the far-forward nose gear.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
Note how the press considers the included pictures to be of the nose design all of a sudden, when only paragraphs earlier this was a diagram of nose gear placement.

"Airbus says the A350’s new nose shape is “one of several design studies” it is working on, but has not yet frozen the design. "

I wonder why Airbus said "new nose shape" if it was only the bay configuration they were talking about. Hmmm....
 
BN727
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:19 am

The new nose isn't bad. If Airbus wants to change the nose, then they should go for a home run. Airbus should make larger windows like those of an L-1011. They should also go for maximum stream lining for least amount of drag. Almost like a concept nose that resembles that of a Disneyworld monorail. Airbus needs to think outside the box and stop spending dollars to save a few pennies.
 
Ken777
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:29 am

I doubt if the airlines really care about the shape of the nose. Like the 787 tail, they will want changes from the concept designs that increase fuel economy. Their position: "Nose smose - cut fuel burn!"

The challenge for Airbus might end up being balancing the costs of development with the final operational economics of the plane. If they take a "less expensive" development approach it might cost them a lot over the long run. Their objective should be to make the 777 look like a gas hog in comparison to the XWB and saving R&D dollars (euros) might not be the way to reach that goal.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 50):
I wonder why Airbus said "new nose shape" if it was only the bay configuration they were talking about. Hmmm....

I wonder why you did not understand my post? Is my English not good?  Confused

The diagram is supposed to demonstrate the location of the nose landing gear bay. OK?

The picture is not supposed to show 350 nose concepts. OK?

-- Are you with me so far? I try to keep this very simple, so you understand my English.

Airbus has decided to put the landing gear bay in a similar place as on the 380. OK?

The picture shows the landing gear placed exactly where it is on the 380 on a picture that looks like a single deck 380. Hmmm.... indeed. It is a picture of a 380 edited slightly to look lika a single deck airplane. Simple as that.

This nose design has nothing to do with the 350 nose, this is just bad journalism on a slow day. OK?

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Grunf
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:54 am

I doubt that new nose-job is more efficient aerodynamic-wise. I see it as a packaging compromise (wheel, rest-compartment, avionics, radar) and a way to save few pennies by borrowing existing A380 shape.

Those versed in CFD and aerodynamics should chime in, but as far as I know, bullet-shaped originaly entry should be more fuel-friendly.

Of course, all this might just be something from nothing as magazines might have "enchanced" a vision by connecting the dots and drawing the lines from hints given but manufacturer.

I personally hope that Airbus will keep its distinctive bullet-nose for A350 and not try to save (trivial amounts of?) money by tacking a hideous looking A380 nose. Especially if such nose would burn more fuel as well. If nothing else, for PR reasons. What presumptive buyer probably wouldn't like to hear is that manufacturer is cutting corners and reusing "old" design for their latest and greatest be-all-and-all airliner.


Clue Concorde:

For anything else, it was a fuel-thirsty, cramped, polluting, obsolete and noisy piece of metal that become obsolete the instant when fuel prices spiked. But to people like me, it was a piece of art. (You can say what you want, but it was Good Looking). I don't believe AF and BA would kept it as long as they did if it didn't give them certain edge and flair. I believe Concorde would have much fewer passengers if it was aesthetically non-pleasing or have mundane looks of 737 or such.

I don't say aestetic matter a lot, but in cut-throat competition with 787, every little bit counts. It can be slightly quieter cabin, good looks or something mundane as spacious toilet.
Drink more milk, less kerosene!
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Grunf (Reply 54):
I doubt that new nose-job is more efficient aerodynamic-wise. I see it as a packaging compromise (wheel, rest-compartment, avionics, radar) and a way to save few pennies by borrowing existing A380 shape.

Those versed in CFD and aerodynamics should chime in, but as far as I know, bullet-shaped originaly entry should be more fuel-friendly.

Yeah, I would have also thought the bullet shape would be more aerodynamic. This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier post.

Sure, airlines shouldn't really care for the look of it, though I would have thought the bullet design was more aerodynamic.
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
474218
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 6):
Interestingly enough they cut off the second part of the article saying that they have increased the internal diameter to 559 cm and Leahy says customers are asking AB to look at high density 10-abreast seating.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
They widened up the fuselage a bit to provide additional comfort 9-abreast / 10-abreast high density configurations.



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 44):
No way can the A350XWB handle 3-4-3. 3-3-3 (or 2-5-2) is the only economical option. 2-4-2 can be done, however, costs per seat would then be much higher than the 787 or 777.

Why is there "NO WAY" 3-4-3, 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 would work? With a width of 559 cm, the inside diameter of the A350XWB would be 1 cm wider than the L-1011 and 3-4-3 and 2-5-2 were both used on the TriStar with success.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:16 am

At the very least I would suspect they will integrate the two "side" windows into a single unit. It's not like the structure will identical since it has to mate to the new body etc. of the 350, so there will be a lot of different little tweaks. It seems like they are really exploring the very far forward front landing gear bay primarily and the 380 is the simplest place to start.

Two cents.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
N2DCaves
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:17 am

Looks like it has a glandular problem, but if that's what works...
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
 
ncelhr
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:21 am

Am I correct in assuming this is all as a way to introduce complete commonality between all new aircraft designs?
This smells like the kind of re-engineering used in the car industry, started so many years ago by Japanese car manufacturers, where 10 models would be derived from a small set of common platforms, all using standard components which can all be used on any model? Brilliant!

ps: who cares if it doesn't look good? Oh, of course, I forgot the A.net lot... but business is business and nobody really cares what it looks like, especially if it means cheaper travel.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting Grunf (Reply 54):
I believe Concorde would have much fewer passengers if it was aesthetically non-pleasing or have mundane looks of 737 or such.

She was indeed a beautiful plane, but form followed function. People flew her because she was fast and they valued that speed enough to pay the extra cost.

If Concorde flew at sub-sonic speed, but with fares many multiples what a 747 flight cost (say, due to higher CASM caused by less seats and less efficient sub-sonic performance), very few indeed would have chosen her just because she "looked good".
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 53):
The diagram is supposed to demonstrate the location of the nose landing gear bay. OK?

Where does it say that?
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 26):
For me this is a sign of Airbus trying to cut down on time and money, and this just woud not impress me if I was an airline considering purchasing an aircraft in this sector.

If it shortens development time and lowers costs, the airlines will be delighted.

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 29):
they may as well just put the A330 nose back on

But the previous A350 nose allowed more lower hold freight, and was said to be more aerodynamic than the A330 nose. So I don't see them going back.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
Airbus PR takes a drawing of the 380 nose, cuts and changes some proportions so it fits for a single deck plane, and gives the press a picture of the 380 nose.

And yet, in the same posting:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
A computer-aided design drawing graphic released by Airbus
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 56):
Why is there "NO WAY" 3-4-3, 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 would work?

I think you misread Kaitak's post: the original past indicates only that 3-4-3 (10-abreast) doesn't work, and actually says 3-3-3 or 2-5-5 (9-abreast) is the only workable option.

That said, I do think they can shove 10-abreast in. It won't be comfortable, it won't be pretty, and not many airlines will opt for it, but believe me, some LCC is going to do it.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
deltadc9
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 29):
Bearing in mind the 767 and the 777 are more similar to each other than the A350 and the A380, they may as well just put the A330 nose back on, despite commonality, I just can't see the advantage of the A380 nose on a plane a lot smaller.

If you look closely at the 380 and 777 it appears to me that they put a normal sized cockpit on a much larger diameter tube and just blended it in so to speak.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 59):
commonality between all new aircraft designs?
This smells like the kind of re-engineering used in the car industry, started so many years ago by Japanese car manufacturers, where 10 models would be derived from a small set of common platforms, all using standard components which can all be used on any model? Brilliant!

Japanese? No. GM Ford and Chrysler have been doing this since Japan was rebuilding.

For instance, the 67-02 Camaro and Firebird are the same car, the GM F platform

But they have taken it much further than that and longer ago take for instance the GM B platform:

1962-1985 Buick LeSabre
1991-1996 Buick Roadmaster
1991-1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
1962-1972 Chevrolet Biscayne
1962-1976 Chevrolet Bel Air
1977-1979 Chevrolet Bel Air (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Impala)
1962-1985 Chevrolet Impala
1965-1996 Chevrolet Caprice
1994-1996 Chevrolet Impala SS
1971-1985 Oldsmobile 88
1962-1981 Pontiac Bonneville
1962-1981 Pontiac Parisienne (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Bonneville)
1983-1986 Pontiac Parisienne
1962-1981 Pontiac Catalina
1962-1981 Pontiac Laurentian (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Catalina)
Station wagons include:
1965-1967 Chevrolet Caprice Estate
1968-1972 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate
1973-1996 Chevrolet Caprice Estate
1962-1967 Chevrolet Impala
1968-1972 Chevrolet Kingswood
1973-1985 Chevrolet Impala
1962-1967 Chevrolet Bel Air
1968-1972 Chevrolet Townsman
1973-1976 Chevrolet Bel Air
1977-1979 Chevrolet Bel Air (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Impala)
1962-1967 Chevrolet Biscayne
1968-1972 Chevrolet Brookwood
1970-1992 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser
1980-1989 Buick Electra Estate Wagon
1980-1989 Buick LeSabre Estate Wagon
1970-1976&1990 Buick Estate Wagon
1977-1979 Buick Estate Wagon (with LeSabre trim)
1977-1979 Buick Estate Limited (with Electra trim)
1991-1996 Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon
1962-1981 Pontiac Bonneville Safari
1962-1981 Pontiac Parisienne Safari (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Bonneville)
1983-1986 Pontiac Parisienne Safari
1962-1981 Pontiac Catalina Safari
1962-1981 Pontiac Laurentian Safari (sold only in Canada, as a rebadged Catalina)
1987-1989 Pontiac Safari

All from one platform!

Quoting DIA (Reply 42):
C'mon...now who is actually surprised the nose/cockpit design is going to change? This is just like the 787 tail design story. So much for a new and different-looking final designs...

I think you are looking at it the wrong way and the negative way. They propose more than what will end up in the design every time, but they never completely revert back to the previous either. Two steps forward one step back is really what is going on.

The 787 is far more interesting than the 767 dont you think? Just because it did not reciece all the design cues proposed, it did get many.

The 350 will be the same IMO.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
ncelhr
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 64):
But they have taken it much further than that and longer ago take for instance the GM B platform:

Sorry - wasn't aware that US manufacturers had done this before.
Well that, for me, is brilliant thinking. Now if the aircraft manufacturing industry moved in that direction...
(I dream of cheap tickets to worldwide exotic destinations)  Wink
 
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Asturias
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 61):
Where does it say that?

In the article perhaps?

Quote:
A computer-aided design drawing graphic released by Airbus of one of the A350 nose configurations... under study

and then bad journalism kicks in:

Quote:
...reveals that it now has a more conventionally shaped nose and flightdeck window layout compared with the one shown in all A350 XWB images released to date.

So a picture that Airbus releases of the nose configuration claims the article, reveals a differently shaped nose that is shown in " all A350 XWB images released to date". My my, what a scoop.

The picture isn't supposed to be of the nose, but the nose configuration. Any nose will do for a diagram. What I'm saying is, I'm sure Airbus is looking at many different options for nose design on the 350, but a silly diagram of the nose gear configuration sent to Flight International isn't going to reveal any of them. Sorry guys.

Much ado about nothing.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 62):

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8708/slyanker3.png

and that same quote of mine complete this time, shall we?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
A computer-aided design drawing graphic released by Airbus of one of the A350 nose configurations under study

See, now I don't have to answer, because I already have answered. You just cut out my answer. Not very nice. Even though I don't have to answer, I'll give you a hint. The answer can be found in the underlined part in the quote above.  

See if you can find it!

saludos

Asturias

[Edited 2007-05-07 19:08:57]
Tonight we fly
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 66):
The picture isn't supposed to be of the nose, but the nose configuration.

By your own words, nose configuration, not nose gear bay configuration.

Configuration: "1 a : relative arrangement of parts or elements: as (1) : SHAPE (2) : contour of land (3) : functional arrangement b : something (as a figure, contour, pattern, or apparatus) that results from a particular arrangement of parts or components c : the stable structural makeup of a chemical compound especially with reference to the space relations of the constituent atoms."
 
LH423
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 53):
The picture is not supposed to show 350 nose concepts. OK?

Your English is fine so maybe you can tone down the sarcasm next time.

Fact is, while the diagram is showing the A380 placement of the forward bogey, it is also demonstrating the "A380-style flightdeck window glazing", i.e. A380 design of the cockpit windows. So yes, both you AND Khobar were right. Try not to be such a smart-ass next time.

Personally, as much as I like the original A350 design better and while it's more futuristic, that kind of nose is going to be commonplace in a few years. Compare it to the 787 but also to the Embraer jets, or what the Bombardier C-Series will look like, etc. So while the current A350 design looks cool because it's new-ish, it will be boring in a few years time when all these planes start to replace the current generation of planes.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 66):
and that same quote of mine complete this time, shall we?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
A computer-aided design drawing graphic released by Airbus of one of the A350 nose configurations under study

Your complaint is off base. You claimed that Airbus PR hacked up a drawing:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 47):
Airbus PR takes a drawing of the 380 nose, cuts and changes some proportions so it fits for a single deck plane, and gives the press a picture of the 380 nose.

and I simply pointed out that your reference stated that the new diagram came from a CAD design rendering. The existence of other CAD designs is irrelevant to the point that this is one of the configurations being studied by engineering, not just a PR Photoshop job.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 56):

Why is there "NO WAY" 3-4-3, 3-3-3 or 2-5-2 would work? With a width of 559 cm, the inside diameter of the A350XWB would be 1 cm wider than the L-1011 and 3-4-3 and 2-5-2 were both used on the TriStar with success.

10-abreast in an A350 requires isles and/or seats below the industry-standards for long-haul aircraft. Just because someone has crammed 10-abreast into an L1011 doesn't mean it is feasible in todays market.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
DIA
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 64):
I think you are looking at it the wrong way and the negative way. They propose more than what will end up in the design every time, but they never completely revert back to the previous either. Two steps forward one step back is really what is going on.

The 787 is far more interesting than the 767 dont you think? Just because it did not reciece all the design cues proposed, it did get many.

1. The glass is half-full. (Actually it is just twice the size of what it needs to be!)
2. I do understand the flash and appeal concept.
3. Of course the 87 is more interesting than the 67.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 64):
But they have taken it much further than that and longer ago take for instance the GM B platform:

Holy cow. Did you spill this info out from the top of your mind, or copy and past a list? Please tell me it's the latter...
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 70):
10-abreast in an A350 requires isles and/or seats below the industry-standards for long-haul aircraft.

So does 9 abreast on the A330. Which is why these configurations will only be used by charter airlines. 9 abreast will still be the norm on the A350 and 787.
 
baron95
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Semobeila (Reply 13):
It's a myth that airlines buy planes because they like the cockpit windows or the plane looks "special". It's usually the economics of a plane that convince an airline to buy.

It is also a myth that airlines don't care about a plane's apearence. Why do you think they spend millions of dollars researching and trying out new paint schemes and interior appointments?

Additionally, "airlnes" do not buy airplanes. Individuals running airlines buy airplanes. To varying degrees, these individuals are moved by design looks, particularly when deciding on very closely matched RFPs (say a A320 vs 738 or 789 vs A358). The royals running EK or QR may indeed break the tie on looks alone, others may care less, but they all care to some extent.

Humans anre humans - every decision to spend $$$ is emotional. You don't know for example if Herb may choose not to buy Airbus because he has a preference for an american product, or that the guy running TAM likes trips to France better than trips to Seatle.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
na
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 2:58 am

The nose is the ugliest part on the A380. Better not adopt it for the A350.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 67):
By your own words, nose configuration, not nose gear bay configuration.

The article quoted a statement and showed a picture regarding nose gear bay configuration. That is the only definite thing it quotes from Airbus. It assumes several things however, things Flight International does not confirm with Airbus.

One being that Airbus is making this particular nose shape change, solely based on this picture that they got for the landing gear..

As I've said before, I'm sure Airbus is finalizing and changing the nose design as we speak, but that picture has no value as source for that change.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 69):
You claimed that Airbus PR hacked up a drawing

And you claim Airbus engineering sends unfinished product designs to PR. Which is absurd.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 68):
Your English is fine so maybe you can tone down the sarcasm next time.

Why thank you, but that does unfortunately mean that it isn't my fault some members didn't seem to understand what I wrote. They could have disagreed with it, but instead they pretended to misunderstand it.

And here I was hoping it was my English causing the confusion.   

saludos

Asturias

[Edited 2007-05-07 20:13:54]
Tonight we fly
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
And you claim Airbus engineering sends unfinished product designs to PR. Which is absurd.

I didn't make any claims. I just pointed out the implication of something you posted. However, the A350 is an unfinished product design at this time, and yet PR seems to be getting renderings of it somehow, presumably from engineering.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 73):
Additionally, "airlines" do not buy airplanes. Individuals running airlines buy airplanes. To varying degrees, these individuals are moved by design looks, particularly when deciding on very closely matched RFPs (say a A320 vs 738 or 789 vs A358). The royals running EK or QR may indeed break the tie on looks alone, others may care less, but they all care to some extent.

I'm doubtful about the validity of this. I'd wager that the next biggest factor after economics (which includes strategic fit) is going to be loyalty to a particular manufacturer - the simplistic A vs B that rages here - long before looks. As for passengers, most never see the aircraft except in photos (which is where the livery comes into play). Sure, there are aficionados like us, that look through the windows in the terminal building, but we're way in the majority. Most don't notice, other than "oh this is a big plane" when getting onboard. If looks are a major influencing factor, Boeing would have built the SonicCruiser - that was a beauty!

As for the change in A350XWB nose, if it does go ahead, hopefully it puts a merry end to the "787 copy" threads  Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 64):
If you look closely at the 380 and 777 it appears to me that they put a normal sized cockpit on a much larger diameter tube and just blended it in so to speak.

Well, the A380 has no smaller plane to steal from, but the shape is clearly that of the a320 series.

As for the 777, it is exactly as you say. It's the 767 blended into the wider fuselage. It's why it can make it so difficult to tell a 777 from due front in an airport if the wings and gear and such are blocked by structures. The 767 is not as wide, but without any reference, those 3 feet are hard to relate when the nose looks identical.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 75):
One being that Airbus is making this particular nose shape change, solely based on this picture that they got for the landing gear..

What makes you say the picture they got was for the landing gear and only the landing gear?
 
baron95
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 77):
If looks are a major influencing factor

I never said it was a "major" factor - I simply said that the individuals running the airlines are not indiferent to looks.

Ask yourself this question. If Airbus came out with a "beluga-transport-shaped" double decked A348 that had exactly the same economics/range/payload/price/financing etc as the 748i, which plane do you think an ariline like SQ, EK, QR (that operates both Airbus and Boeing widebodies) would most likely buy?
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
474218
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 63):
That said, I do think they can shove 10-abreast in. It won't be comfortable, it won't be pretty, and not many airlines will opt for it, but believe me, some LCC is going to do it.

I don't care how many seat abreast they install, its the seat pitch that make flying uncomfortable.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 70):
10-abreast in an A350 requires isles and/or seats below the industry-standards for long-haul aircraft. Just because someone has crammed 10-abreast into an L1011 doesn't mean it is feasible in todays market.

Just what is the industry-standard for isle and seat width? Has any one told Emirates which has 10 abreast 3-4-3 seating in their 777's?
 
deltadc9
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 71):
Holy cow. Did you spill this info out from the top of your mind, or copy and past a list? Please tell me it's the latter...

No, I just knew there were several platforms with dozens of models and went and found one.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 65):
Sorry - wasn't aware that US manufacturers had done this before.

No biggie, people have gotten into this myth that US cars and manufacturers are inferior of so long now that it is almost counterintuative to think GM is doing things right and has been all along, teaching Toyota in the process BTW.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 78):
It's why it can make it so difficult to tell a 777 from due front in an airport if the wings and gear and such are blocked by structures. The 767 is not as wide, but without any reference, those 3 feet are hard to relate when the nose looks identical.

I am glad I am not the only one that has this problem with the 767/777!
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
777ER
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 10):

All the Airbuses noses all look the same

Quoting Semobeila (Reply 13):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 5):
The A350s nose goes away from the usual Airbus nose, whihc in turn would make the A350 special. With the usual Airbus nose, it wouldn't be special. IMO it would be a bad move by Airbus, which would easily be included in the already long list of bad mistakes Airbus has made over the last few years

It's a myth that airlines buy planes because they like the cockpit windows or the plane looks "special". It's usually the economics of a plane that convince an airline to buy.

Yes I know that. What I was saying was that with the A350 nose design, it was going to break the Airbus 'tradition' of using same design noses, like same design cockpit windows etc
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Rheinbote
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:38 am

Has anybody wasted a thought on the possibility that FLIGHT may just have made up this drawing based on a completely wrong perception of information that might have been given to them by Airbus?
I can imagine that 'A380-style nose landing gear bay concept' and 'A380 cockpit' may have led FLIGHT to believe Airbus would graft a complete A380 nose section onto the XWB. I doubt that Airbus would do so. Besides, the drawing does not even correctly reproduce the 'A380 nose landing gear bay concept'.

ed for word omission

[Edited 2007-05-07 21:50:35]
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:41 am

Probably the 348 - it would be perceived as newer and feature full FBW, and if it was taller off the ground than the 748, it might even be quieter by use of larger diameter fans. Plus you could create some really funky paint schemes.  Wink

Quoting 474218 (Reply 81):
Just what is the industry-standard for isle and seat width? Has any one told Emirates which has 10 abreast 3-4-3 seating in their 777's?

The A350 is narrower than the 777 - is this still true?

The 777 in 10-abreast uses a 17" seat and 17" aisle from dimensions of 59"+17"+78"+17"+59" for a total seat width requirement of 230". This is compared with 43"+19.25"+104.5"+19.25"+43in in 2x5x2 with 18.5" seats for a total seat width requirement of 229". The 3x3x3 configuration uses 18.5" seats with 19.25" aisles.

The A350XWB width is 220" (using 559cm). For 3x4x3 seating with 2" armrests would require 16.5" seats and 15" aisles, I think. Someone earlier posted that 15" was the minimum, so I guess it could be done. I'd be interested in knowing whether such has ever been evaluated from an evacuation POV for any aircraft - the absolute minimum allowable spacing I mean.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
You mean much like Boeing and its original 787 "designs"?

Yes, much the same way. I don't recall Boeing widely claiming the sharktail was worth 1% in fuel burn, but I admit I wasn't paying that much attention back in the day.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 35):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
this smacks of "someone in engineering found out that marketing's window design is stupid, and we are way the hell over budget anyway"

......this smacks of I dont know what Im talking about, so I'll make it up as I go along

I wonder is there a reason why its called a STUDY?

Cry more. Airbus claims that the new windows are all that and a bag of chips, then next we hear they photocopy the A380 cockpit blueprints and send them over to the A350 department. Certainly there is plenty of money to be saved by using the same A380 design for the cockpit and as many parts from the A380 bill of material as possible. The problem I am having is that they already made technical claims for the new fancy windows, and backing off of it, makes it seem less likely that they can make the performance they have already publicly claimed for the A350.

The A350 program is already a long list of questionable decisions, this can hardly pass with a "oh well, I'm sure they know what they are doing". The A350Mk VII is looking like less of a plane than he A350Mk VI already.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 76):
However, the A350 is an unfinished product design at this time, and yet PR seems to be getting renderings of it somehow, presumably from engineering.

More likely, they are making their own. I know engineers that work exclusively for PR and they don't have any day to day contact with actual Airbus engineering. Assuming the picture comes from Airbus PR and isn't a rentition by Flight Interntational.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 79):
What makes you say the picture they got was for the landing gear and only the landing gear?

Because that's the only thing Airbus has decided, or frozen in the design of the 350 nose at this stage that they have mentioned. Airbus says the nose gear will be in a similar place to the 380, thus the picture. They also said that they were working on nose shape designs as well, but Flight International doesn't claim to have any pictures of that. All they have is the picture that shows the different placement of the landing gear and noticed that the nose shape was different in that picture from *all* other 350 pictures. So they made an assumption, and say so in the article that from the picture in question Airbus has changed the nose shape to this.

They never asked Airbus if this was actually true, probably because it isn't and they know it. All they know is that Airbus is working on a change in the shape of the nose, nothing more. The shape they are working on is unknown.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 84):
Has anybody wasted a thought on the possibility that FLIGHT may just have made up this drawing based on a completely wrong perception of information that might have been given to them by Airbus?
I can imagine that 'A380-style nose landing gear concept' and 'A380 cockpit' may have led FLIGHT to believe Airbus would graft a complete A380 nose section onto the XWB. I doubt that Airbus would do so. Besides, the drawing does not even correctly reproduce the 'A380 nose landing gear concept'.

Yes, the thought crossed my mind.. there is something very odd about that picture and either the oddness comes from the fact that this is a rendition by Flight International or that this comes from Airbus PR, not engineering.

A PR picture would never come from engineering unless the design is frozen and finished. This picture does not, regardless of other options, come from Airbus engineering.

saludos

Asturias

[Edited 2007-05-07 22:04:24]
Tonight we fly
 
agill
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:12 am

To me the picture looks suspiciusly much like the graphics they usually use in in Flight so it might be made by them. The perspective just looks a bit strange.
 
iwok
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Bells (Thread starter):
Flight International reports Airbus is considering putting the A380's nose design on the A350 and they have a graphic showing what it looks like!



Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
Hmm doesn't make it look better IMO, however who really cares..

The same thing happened when the 7E7 morphed into the 787 at final configuration. Fashion and styling got tossed out of the "window" in favor of economics. Not a bad thing afterall.  Smile

-iwok
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 86):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 35):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
this smacks of "someone in engineering found out that marketing's window design is stupid, and we are way the hell over budget anyway"

......this smacks of I dont know what Im talking about, so I'll make it up as I go along

I wonder is there a reason why its called a STUDY?

Cry more.

Actually that sound is laughter - at the gullibility of some of your posts.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 86):
Airbus claims that the new windows are all that and a bag of chips, then next we hear they photocopy the A380 cockpit blueprints and send them over to the A350 department. Certainly there is plenty of money to be saved by using the same A380 design for the cockpit and as many parts from the A380 bill of material as possible.

Dont take it so seriously. The picture looks stupid, its not even done by airbus. The A350XWB (and even the old A350) were always going to have the A380s cockpit. It clearly says that the related image is just ''one of several design studies it is working on, but has not yet frozen the design.''

.......And in any case, the only reason they would make such changes is because they would improve the design further.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 73):
It is also a myth that airlines don't care about a plane's apearence. Why do you think they spend millions of dollars researching and trying out new paint schemes and interior appointments?

Yes but that is tied into corporate branding, not aircraft aesthetics. SQ's A388 scheme looks like a flying billboard for the company, with the airline's name so predominately emblazoned across the side of the plane as the sheer height of the A388's fuselage allows them to use such a large typeface compared to, say, the 777-300ER.
 
richm
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 5:28 am

It looks tacky in my opinion, and looks a bit like a BAe-146 like someone said. But then again, one would have to be rather naive to think that Airbus would come up with a beauty! It's definitely fleet commonality here!

[Edited 2007-05-07 22:31:07]
 
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glideslope
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
Other very succesfull aircraft e.g. F27, B777, Dakota, An-2, F4 can't considered beauty's either..

There you go again. The 777 is a beauty. Will always be classic.  checkeredflag 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 87):
Because that's the only thing Airbus has decided, or frozen in the design of the 350 nose at this stage that they have mentioned. Airbus says the nose gear will be in a similar place to the 380, thus the picture. They also said that they were working on nose shape designs as well, but Flight International doesn't claim to have any pictures of that.

Now you say FI doesn't claim to have any pictures of any new nose shape designs after arguing that FI was practicing bad journalism in presenting a picture of the landing gear location and claiming it represented a new nose configuration.

Interesting...
 
dank
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 91):
Yes but that is tied into corporate branding, not aircraft aesthetics. SQ's A388 scheme looks like a flying billboard for the company, with the airline's name so predominately emblazoned across the side of the plane as the sheer height of the A388's fuselage allows them to use such a large typeface compared to, say, the 777-300ER.

 checkmark  It isn't like they are going to say, oh we can't buy the plane that fits are needs because it doesn't look as pretty as the one that doesn't...

I just don't get a lot of this thread. As with some of the artist renderings of the 787 and the criticisms after the more conventional looking final version, I just don't get some of the arguments around these parts. While from an asthetic standpoint, variety is nice, from the program standpoint, who cares if it looks more or less like other planes. If it gets the job done at a reasonable cost... Since the design isn't frozen, why shouldn't they be looking into different designs and getting the best mix of performance and commonality that they can.

cheers.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Dank (Reply 95):
I just don't get a lot of this thread. As with some of the artist renderings of the 787 and the criticisms after the more conventional looking final version, I just don't get some of the arguments around these parts.

In my case, it's because, as an aviation enthusiast, in some ways I would prefer that aircraft were indeed chosen for their aesthetics and the original 7E7/787 design would have been the one going forward and Concorde would still be flying across the Atlantic.  Smile
 
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Asturias
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 94):
Now you say FI doesn't claim to have any pictures of any new nose shape designs after arguing that FI was practicing bad journalism in presenting a picture of the landing gear location and claiming it represented a new nose configuration.

Now? That was my whole point. You seem to be the only one here who can't understand my english. I wonder why this is.

FI doesn't claim to have any pictures of a new nose design, only that they have a picture of a new gearbox placement which coincidentally shows a different nose design from all other 350 pictures. Assuming that the nose is therefore the new nose, is bad journalism.

Simple enough for you to understand? Can't say I didn't try to get this dead-simple point across.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
AirRyan
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 8:19 am

The "nose" or front end of the Airbus aircraft is it's signature and up until the concept drawing of the A350XWB, it has been their ugliest fesature. Seriously, the uglt front end on the A380 is the thing I dislike most about the aircraft, and if they want to save money take the nose from the A350XWB and put IT on the A380!!!!!

If they make the change I hope they change the name, too: the A350XUN for Extra Ugly Nose!
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus May Put A380 Nose On A350!

Tue May 08, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 97):
FI doesn't claim to have any pictures of a new nose design, only that they have a picture of a new gearbox placement which coincidentally shows a different nose design from all other 350 pictures. Assuming that the nose is therefore the new nose, is bad journalism.

Now you say FI claims the picture is only of a new gearbox placement. Please, by all means, do quote from the article where FI makes this particular claim.

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