EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 50):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 45):
They have existed in the first place without it?????

So, that makes it OK?

In the context of your point, yes it does.
 
User avatar
USAF336TFS
Posts: 1362
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 37):
Didn't he say something daft like - more than 2?

You could be right, but IIRC in ATWOnline, the numbers quoted were 15 to 20.

Who knows... Either way, good news for Airbus aficionados!
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
airbazar
Posts: 9962
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 43):
find that true and somewhat ironic. EK is usually the one pushing for more range. If someone builds something with more range than a 777LR, ie, a really globespaning aircraft, then EK will die a very quick death IMHO.

Everyone pretty much said the same thing about DXB when the 744 was developed. Look at DXB today, it's bigger and better than it was back in the days when it was virtually a mandatory refueling stop between Europe and Southeast Asia/Australia.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15057
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
Frankly, if the only A380 customers are the current ones, but they end up buying hundreds of them, is that really such a bad thing?

Yes. Because they won't buy 600 more of them. The current customers can only be expected to take, at most 300 planes over time. That's no longer even above break even.

Airbus still needs all those above possible orders, other 747 operators to order and about 6 more EKs to reach their target...

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 52):
As far as I understand, EK specifically announced that compensation would not be linked to any other order, which seems to imply that all compensation is either cash based or a rebate of the purchase price of the existing 43. I am however sure that they drove a good bargain for these four frames, but it would be a win-win for both.

Or four free A380s.

What EK says and what happens, well, we know that those aren't always the same thing.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3992
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 55):
You could be right, but IIRC in ATWOnline, the numbers quoted were 15 to 20.

You are mixing it up a bit: Sheik Maktouhm hinted at a small order "as early as in the next couple of months". Tim Clark hinted towards a larger A380, but likely not this year. No, the first part has already come true...
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,...
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 55):
IIRC in ATWOnline, the numbers quoted were 15 to 20.

I think those were linked to them starting up their LCC, whereas this order is simply to bring their A380 order in line with the way their revised business plan...
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
Or four free A380s.

.......... cloudnine 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
What EK says and what happens, well, we know that those aren't always the same thing.

..........likewise, the same applies to the words of certain members of a.net  Wink
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 8:00 am

Don't shoot me, but could the four planes be the "delay compensation". I've read lots of people here estimating that EK's delay compensation would be a tad north of $1B sme even attepted to document the calculations. Also, adding 4 planes to a 45-plane order at this stage seems to be a bit odd. So is it possible that EK is getting these planes as part of a compensation package?

P.S. I'm in no way implying that EK does not want the planes, thinks they are inferior or any such thing. But clearly EK was owed some compensation and 4 A380s worth are in the ballpark.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 40):
That totally mismanaged program is going to cost 10000 jobs in Europe!



Quoting EI321 (Reply 45):
They have existed in the first place without it?????

It's so ironic that the very mechanism that brought Airbus into being (A tax-supported "consortium") to eventually position it as the largest airliner manufacturer in the 1st half of this decade, is what is now causing Airbus' problems.

The reemergence of the airliner industry in Europe and the thousands of well paying jobs it created is an amazing accomplishment, and a testament to social democracies working together to a greater good. It reminds me of the Marshall plan after World War Two to rebuild Europe.

However, it seems that what has been done very poorly (or not done at all) was to encourage or allow EADS/Airbus to become a stand-alone company. So now we have an inefficient company that has a convoluted and lugubrious management structure and government interference. I would suggest that Airbus' evolution towards independence should have started long before now; before they employed THIS many people represented by such strong and determined unions.

I wonder if it's possible to create a consortium in this fashion, realize fantastic success, but THEN be able or willing to morph it into an independent and self reliant company? The example I can think of is Volkswagon - wasn't that intially a government project?

Perhaps with France's new conservative president, Airbus will be allowed to move in the direction of independence and responsibitily.
I come in peace
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 1):
So much for the folks who swore EK would cancel at least half of the a380 order after the latest round of delays.

 checkmark 

Just like when SQ and QF ordered additional A380s, those people clearly stay away from the topic again!
 
astuteman
Posts: 7076
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 61):
Don't shoot me, but could the four planes be the "delay compensation". I've read lots of people here estimating that EK's delay compensation would be a tad north of $1B sme even attepted to document the calculations. Also, adding 4 planes to a 45-plane order at this stage seems to be a bit odd. So is it possible that EK is getting these planes as part of a compensation package?

Having been offline for a few days, you beat me to it.........
Again, with no offence intended to the A380 (of course, seeing as its my favourite..  cloudnine  ), "real" selling prices for 4 A380's would likely be c. $800m, which would equal $18m per frame compensation. Didn't QF get around $14m?
Given EK's greater leverage, that sounds frighteningly realistic...
To me it would be a neat and tidy solution to everyone's problems, and Airbus save themselves $800m in much-needed cashflow for the next 3-4 years.......

2 + 2 =

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
four free A380s.

 bigthumbsup 

Regards
 
User avatar
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1886
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 39):
It seems to me that we just need to see one ultra efficiant A/C with just a little more range (i.e. that can do the Kangaroo route without stopping)?

We might see that in the next 10 years. Y3 is comming.



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 39):
and I think Dubai will suddenly become a flyover-state, except for O + D traffic. Remember Anchorage?

Uhm, you forgot about a tiny difference between Anchorage and Dubai: Anchorage is in the middle of nowhere and its significance is steadily decreasing - 777F and all of the future freighters capable of doing West Coast - China/Japan/Taiwan nonstop with profitable load will be it's final nail on the coffin IMHO. Dubai lies at the intersection of every major trading route between Africa, Europe and Asia, and is also a major business center.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
EK345
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:12 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 4:03 pm

does anyone believe that this could perhaps be airbus' form of compensation for the delays?? nothing like throwing in an extra 4. i'm thinking they might have been heavily discounted at least.

thoughts?

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
gkirk
Posts: 23392
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 4:33 pm

Good news for EK and the whalejet.
47 A380s... Wow!
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
User avatar
ERJ135
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 4:04 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 4:47 pm

[quote=EK345,reply=67]does anyone believe that this could perhaps be airbus' form of compensation for the delays?? nothing like throwing in an extra 4. i'm thinking they might have been heavily discounted at least.

thoughts?


Don't be silly, all the experts in here will swear blind that you only get fleets of A330's as compensation even if the said A330's were ordered before the A380 order.  box 
I remember when the DC-3 was new!
 
vincewy
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:32 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 5:48 pm

Who else would be ordering A380s this year? Given Airbus's estimate this year, it looks like a small number per carrier, but I can think of those, they'll need to order those soon based on need:

SA - 4-6 definitely for JNB-LHR, possibly CPT-LHR and JNB-JFK
OZ - 4 else they'll fall behind KE on trunk routes
EY - with their ambitious plans, they must be getting more later
LH - perhaps followup order for 10 more?

Also earlier SV announced plans to place massive order of aircrafts, would this involve VLAs like 748s or A380s?
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 6:06 pm

Quote:

"We have repeatedly said we are committed to the A380 and, having now fully settled all past issues, this latest agreement should leave no one in any doubt about our faith in Airbus, the company and the quality of the aircraft we are committing to," said Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al Maktoum, chairman of Emirates Group, in a statement.


http://sanantonio.bizjournals.com/me...his/stories/2007/05/07/daily3.html
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Topic Author
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 68):
47 A380s..

Actually, if one is patient, Emirates will announce a further order for A380s as they are still in talks for more. That's my opinion as I cannot provide a link to the source  Wink

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 72):
Actually, if one is patient, Emirates will announce a further order for A380s as they are still in talks for more. That's my opinion as I cannot provide a link to the source

Personally I dont see the point in them ordering any at this stage (including these four), before the aircraft enters service. Whats the rush?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18301
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 70):
Who else would be ordering A380s this year?

 wink 
Kingfisher To Exercice A380 Options (by Flying-Tiger May 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9962
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 66):
Anchorage is in the middle of nowhere and its significance is steadily decreasing - 777F and all of the future freighters capable of doing West Coast - China/Japan/Taiwan nonstop with profitable load will be it's final nail on the coffin IMHO.

I desagree, for various reasons. If DXB sits at the intersection of a major trading route, ANC sits at the intersection of a major cargo route. The fact that it's in the middle of nowhere is a benefit because it's cheaper and there's no people complaining about airplanes landing and taking off. Unlike people, cargo doesn't care about point-to-point service and unlike people it doesn't complain about having to change planes. Large cargo companies will always need very large sorting facilities and US-Asia is the largest trading market in the World and ANC sits right in the middle of it.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 70):
SA - 4-6 definitely for JNB-LHR, possibly CPT-LHR and JNB-JFK
OZ - 4 else they'll fall behind KE on trunk routes
EY - with their ambitious plans, they must be getting more later
LH - perhaps followup order for 10 more?

I have nothng concrete to back this up but am I right in saying that ILFC has 10 on order and have only placed 2 or them (with EK) so could some of these smaller customers go to them rather than buy their own?

Quoting EI321 (Reply 73):
Personally I dont see the point in them ordering any at this stage (including these four), before the aircraft enters service. Whats the rush?

Maybe's there's a head of steam building and if you don't order now they'll be a very long wait?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26726
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 73):
Personally I dont see the point in them ordering any at this stage (including these four), before the aircraft enters service. Whats the rush?

Secure capacity now so as to use it to both hammer your competition into the ground and deny them the ability to add capacity to either defend their position or to respond in kind?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18844
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 72):
Actually, if one is patient, Emirates will announce a further order for A380s as they are still in talks for more. That's my opinion as I cannot provide a link to the source

I 100% agree with you. EK is far from done ordering A380's. I'm not saying I would like to be on their LCC A380's... but they have a business plan... and that division (sub-airline?) will need quite a few airframes.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Danny
Posts: 3742
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
This means EK is happy with compensation, but what is that compensation? Is it the A350 order, or straight discounts?

EK sad that all past issues have been resolved. That means resolved in current contracts. I think this 4 A380 include any settlements in lieu of delays.

Any future orders will be on "clear ground".

[Edited 2007-05-08 16:30:25]
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Tue May 08, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 79):
Any future orders will be on "clear ground".

Not if certain a.net members have a say in it they wont!
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 66):
hm, you forgot about a tiny difference between Anchorage and Dubai: Anchorage is in the middle of nowhere and its significance is steadily decreasing - 777F and all of the future freighters capable of doing West Coast - China/Japan/Taiwan nonstop with profitable load will be it's final nail on the coffin IMHO. Dubai lies at the intersection of every major trading route between Africa, Europe and Asia, and is also a major business center.

It's true that Dubai is becoming an important O + D center, both for commerce as well as an emerging leisure destination. But my point is that it's geographical positioning as an ideal hub (which EK has taken advantage of admirably) will become much less relevant if Y3 ends up having the range that some of us expect. If Y3 has the range, there will be more and more opportunities to fly directly to a destination rather than transfer in Dubai.

Mirabel (Montreal) was intended as a the original "Dubai" of North America (before Dubai was Dubai), but was obsolete even as it opened because the nature of the industry was moving towards point to point, and that evolution started over the Atlantic. Aircraft became available that could fly economically from anywhere in North America to Europe, so Mirabel became the hub that never happened; a white elephant.

Whereas Dubai will remain an important center for local transfer-traffic operations, I think that Y3 could strip it of much of it's long-range transfer traffic. Passengers would rather not change planes if they don't have to, and A/C manufacturers (and most airlines) realize this.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 75):
I desagree, for various reasons. If DXB sits at the intersection of a major trading route, ANC sits at the intersection of a major cargo route.

The emerging reality about package delivery, though, is it's becoming more and more time sensitive. I understand one of the reasons that (was it Fed Ex?) cancelled it's 380 orders and went for smaller and more numerous A/C (was it the 777?), is that they wanted a leaner and meaner A/C that can fly DIRECT to Asia with a full load and skip the transferring in Memphis or Anchorage or wherever in the middle of the night, to save mostly TIME and arrive earlier, local time. If that is where the package deliver business is going, then I think Anchorage's role as a transfer point where packages change airplanes I will also start to diminish, I believe.
I come in peace
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18301
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 79):
EK sad that all past issues have been resolved. That means resolved in current contracts. I think this 4 A380 include any settlements in lieu of delays.

Not according to Gulf News.
http://www.gulf-news.com/business/Aviation/10123719.html

Quote:
Dubai-based Emirates airline yesterday said it would buy four more Airbus A380s and had reached a compensation deal with Airbus on the delayed delivery of 43 superjumbos it had ordered in 2003.

Officials, however, denied the order was linked to compensation.

So they're saying "We have reached a compensation agreement, but this order for 4 A380s has nothing to do with it."

Given the unlikely scenario that Airbus would make a cash payment to EK, and adding the seemingly not quite yet cancelled A346s, I believe this clearly points to both these issues being resolved in the rumoured A330/A350 order.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9962
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 81):
But my point is that it's geographical positioning as an ideal hub (which EK has taken advantage of admirably) will become much less relevant if Y3 ends up having the range that some of us expect. If Y3 has the range, there will be more and more opportunities to fly directly to a destination rather than transfer in Dubai.

Again, I don't think that will happen. Here's what I said in reply 56:
"Everyone pretty much said the same thing about DXB when the 744 was developed. Look at DXB today, it's bigger and better than it was back in the days when it was virtually a mandatory refueling stop between Europe and Southeast Asia/Australia."

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 81):
I think Anchorage's role as a transfer point where packages change airplanes I will also start to diminish, I believe.

I don't think so at all for the reasons that I already explained. How many 777F have been ordered so far again? Hardly the bonanza that's needed to eliminate large sorting facilities like ANC. In fact the trend has been exactly the opposite. New all cargo airports have been built recently or greatly expanded: Sharjah and Tianjin.
 
Danny
Posts: 3742
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 82):
So they're saying "We have reached a compensation agreement, but this order for 4 A380s has nothing to do with it."

Given the unlikely scenario that Airbus would make a cash payment to EK, and adding the seemingly not quite yet cancelled A346s, I believe this clearly points to both these issues being resolved in the rumoured A330/A350 order.

According to Gulf news:
"Last week, Emirates also finalised the terms of its compensation by Airbus for the 22-month delay in delivering A380s, according to Mike Simon, senior vice-president for corporate communications."

As far as I am aware A350XWB order is not finalised while A380 compensation clearly is.

[Edited 2007-05-08 18:03:50]
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18301
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 84):
As far as I am aware A350XWB order is not finalised while A380 compensation clearly is.

Yes, that's exactly my point. yes 

The "terms" (i.e. how much) has been agreed. However, this top-up order for A380s has nothing to do with it. So, in my opinion, given that Airbus is very unlikely to make a cash payment to EK, the compensation will be rolled in to the price that EK will pay for some other Airbus order.

I'm also factoring in EK's very-late-in-the-day cancellation of their A346 order, which despite some words to the effect that "another customer had taken over the order", still shows on Airbus's books as an EK order.

It seems a neat solution to offset any cancellation charges for the A346s against the A380 compensation, then "pay" this as additional discount on the rumoured orders for 60 A330s and 100 A350s.

I'm sure the usual Airbus bashers will try to convince us all that EK will get all these planes for nothing, but I can't see how this is anything other than a very nice win-win for both. The language that EK is now using towards Airbus is very different to that which they were using only just recently. This convinces me even more that we have a significant (possibly even a mega) deal on our hands here. Time will tell.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 82):
Given the unlikely scenario that Airbus would make a cash payment to EK, and adding the seemingly not quite yet cancelled A346s, I believe this clearly points to both these issues being resolved in the rumoured A330/A350 order.

If they are telling the truth, then I agree with you. Perhaps we can expect an announcement from EK and Airbus in Paris regarding the 330/350.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 83):
I don't think so at all for the reasons that I already explained. How many 777F have been ordered so far again? Hardly the bonanza that's needed to eliminate large sorting facilities like ANC. In fact the trend has been exactly the opposite. New all cargo airports have been built recently or greatly expanded: Sharjah and Tianjin.

I'm truly not an expert in this area, but I just remember that's the reasoning Fed Ex gave for their altered business plan. The delayed 380 seemed to be their opportunity to put it into effect without financial penalty.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 83):
"Everyone pretty much said the same thing about DXB when the 744 was developed. Look at DXB today, it's bigger and better than it was back in the days when it was virtually a mandatory refueling stop between Europe and Southeast Asia/Australia."

Yes, but the 747 is a jumbo, and the 380 even more so. Y3, on the other hand, could offer an improvement in range but a reduction in capacity - supporting ultra-long range routes between smaller city pairs. This is the point-to-point trend that has already been happening (such as more 767s and 330's across the Atlantic these days, rather than 747s.) That trend has not yet been possible on very long range routes. I think Y3 would threaten Dubai and EK's growth strategy, at least to some extent, because it would make thinner, ultra long range routes technically possible and commerically viable.

I concede that my comparison to Mirabel was a little strong, and I was not being reasonable suggesting that Dubai would ever become obsolete. But I think 45 380's is pie-in-the-sky thinking... and ignores the advent of ultra-long range, medium capacity hub-buster A/C that are surely on the horizon.
I come in peace
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 12:32 pm

The compensation could be as simple as EK paying less when they pick up each airframe on order currently. Its not cash out of Airbus's hands now, spreads out the pain, and preserves EK's desire for the A380 compensation to be independent of any future orders.

Of course I'm guessing that EK dumping the A340 order was also "rolled in" if they didn't already walk away free and clear of that.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 86):
I think Y3 would threaten Dubai and EK's growth strategy, at least to some extent, because it would make thinner, ultra long range routes technically possible and commerically viable.

The growing movement to regulate carbon emissions could make this less commercially viable by the time Y3 becomes available. By stopping in the middle of a route, you save ~15% of the fuel burn per seat mile... and if oil is not only expensive, but carbon-taxed, this will make a serious dent in CASM.

If that refueling or transfer stop happens to be at a hub designed from the ground up, such as Dubai, it may not be that unattractive. I have read that EK was going to put all their premium accommodations on the A380 upper decks, providing two separate terminals... think of it as deplaning straight into a VIP lounge, and never having to mix with the unwashed masses. Travelers might actually prefer to stop.

I agree that Y3 will likely have better capability, but I believe this would be used primarily for increased payload rather than increased range.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18301
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 87):
The compensation could be as simple as EK paying less when they pick up each airframe on order currently.

This is possible.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 87):
if they didn't already walk away free and clear of that.

Given how late in the day EK "cancelled", I can't believe Airbus wouldn't apply whatever contractual obligations were available to them (even if only to reduce the level of A380 compensation). Airbus and its suppliers must have already spent a lot of money on the first few frames.

The things that I find most interesting in the whole EK situation are - EK hasn't ordered 787s and Boeing has gone very quiet on the -10; EK ordering additional A380s and making it very clear that these had nothing to do with delay compensation; the 180-degree change in the language that EK is using now when talking about Airbus. I think these all point to a very significant Airbus order, either at, or even before Paris. We shall see.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Wed May 09, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 88):
The growing movement to regulate carbon emissions could make this less commercially viable by the time Y3 becomes available. By stopping in the middle of a route, you save ~15% of the fuel burn per seat mile... and if oil is not only expensive, but carbon-taxed, this will make a serious dent in CASM.

Interesting. Part of an ultra-long range A/C's ability would necessarily be fuel efficiency, and there is a trend in that direction anyway (787, 350). HOWEVER, what you are suggesting is inescapable, that it COSTS fuel to carry with you the weight the the fuel for the entire journey... So, even as efficient as these A/C become, economics and fuel prices may make the stop prudent.

However, landing and then taking off and climbing back to altitude uses fuel as well. I suppose there's an equation out there that decides which modality uses less fuel; and it probably depends a lot on the length of the route.

Certainly logic dictates that we can't extend the range of A/C indefinitely - because carrying ALL that fuel for the entire journey would be technically and cost prohibitive. I wonder what the practical limit will be?
I come in peace
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Thu May 10, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 90):
Certainly logic dictates that we can't extend the range of A/C indefinitely - because carrying ALL that fuel for the entire journey would be technically and cost prohibitive. I wonder what the practical limit will be?

12K nm with full passenger load is likely to be the longest marketed range, since after all thats enough to go between any two points on the globe.....

In practical terms though 10K NM will likely be the next big target for real payloads in the near future for the "ULH" class. No pulling off passengers or the like, but a real marketable passenger load, unlike the A345 and to a lesser extent the 772LR.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26726
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Thu May 10, 2007 9:29 pm

Looks like these four birds are for expansion, and were not directly part of the compensation agreement - http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8853

Quote:
(Clark) also reiterated that the four A380s ordered last week were not part of the compensation package for delayed deliveries (ATWOnline, May 8). "This is a new order for aircraft we need and we were able to take some delivery slots that opened up," he said.


[Edited 2007-05-10 14:29:49]
 
ncelhr
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 5:06 pm

To all those that criticize Emirates's order for so many A380s, have you considered that their aim is to create a long-distance LCC? Then make the parrallel with short-haul LCCs, say Ryanair & Airbus.

Did you think Ryanair was mad when they ordered 100+ 738s in one go? (and they only had 30-40 732s & 733s at the time)

Did you think EasyJet was mad when they ordered 100+ 319s in one go? (and they only had about 30 733s at the time)

I say it again - we are on the brink of seeing a complete revolution in long-haul aviation, perhaps the same kind of revolution as we saw for short haul when LCCs entered the market.
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Topic Author
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):
Looks like these four birds are for expansion, and were not directly part of the compensation agreement - http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8853

Quote:
(Clark) also reiterated that the four A380s ordered last week were not part of the compensation package for delayed deliveries (ATWOnline, May 8). "This is a new order for aircraft we need and we were able to take some delivery slots that opened up," he said.

That's right Stitch but where did the 4 slots get freed up from? Made available due to the -F cancellations or the deferral of the order by VS? That's the question.

This order for 4 by EK is just the first tranche, they have more to order and intend to operate more than current 47 that they now have on order.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 93):
Did you think Ryanair was mad when they ordered 100+ 738s in one go? (and they only had 30-40 732s & 733s at the time)

Actually I think they only had 20-25 732s at the time.
 
WINGS
Posts: 2315
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 94):
That's right Stitch but where did the 4 slots get freed up from? Made available due to the -F cancellations or the deferral of the order by VS? That's the question.

This order for 4 by EK is just the first tranche, they have more to order and intend to operate more than current 47 that they now have on order.

This something that has popped into my mind occasionally. Could it be that EK will try to capture more early delivery slots so that its major competitors will have a harder time in acquiring the A380, or is Airbus more willing to hold some early delivery slots for potential customers.

It would seem that with the recent developments/rumours, the airlines that have not yet exercised their options may look into doing so in the coming months/years.

PanAmDc_10, would you happen to have the break down into the number of options that the current A380 customers have?

If my memory serves me correctly the following airlines hold options, although I'm not sure about how many.

Korean Air x 3?
Qantas x 4?
Singapore Airlines ?
Lufthansa x 5-10 ?
Air France x 4 ?
Virgin x 6 ?
Qatar x 2 ?
Kingfisher x 5 ?


Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 7:02 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 94):
This order for 4 by EK is just the first tranche, they have more to order and intend to operate more than current 47 that they now have on order.

  

Over the past few days I have seen some people here showing signs of relieve because EK has ordered 'just' 4 additional A380-800s, whereas at first they'd indicated they were preparing to announce another double digit order.

I can confirm to you the sole reason EK has ordered 'just 4' is mainly because that's all there was left for them to pick up on the production line for now... The rest of their order will follow, however.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 94):
where did the 4 slots get freed up from? That's the question.

4 additional delivery positions were created on the A380 line by adjusting production planning to the updated backlog as well as the faster than estimated implementation of the A380 harness modifications. I have come to understand many don't like him, but John Leahy was again NOT talking out of his neck when he said it was a difficult but business-driven decision to show UPS the door by putting the A380F on ice, in order to focus on the pax models and as such increase the total number of frames produced per year.

I think there have been more than enough hints given by both Airbus as well as the first few customers that the integration problems are now fully under control and that the speed at which the assembly line can start to produce is higher than what Airbus has put it on right after the problems with the harnesses became known to them.

[Edited 2007-05-11 12:07:32]
 
WINGS
Posts: 2315
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 7:12 pm

Hi Sabenapilot, Thank you once again for the very informative information. Even though some will be unwilling to believe it.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 97):
Over the past few days I have seen some people here showing signs of relieve because EK has ordered 'just' 4 additional A380-800s, whereas at first they'd indicated they were preparing to announce another double digit order.

True.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 97):
I can confirm to you the sole reason EK has ordered 'just 4' is mainly because that's all there was left for them to pick up on the production line for now... The rest of their order will follow, however.

Humm, very interesting. Hopefully we wont have to wait too long.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 97):
4 additional delivery positions were created on the A380 line by adjusting production planning to the updated backlog as well as the faster than estimated implementation of the A380 harness modifications.

This is were the real good news is confirmed. It would seem that the A380 recovery plan is exceeding expectations.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 97):
I think there have been more than enough hints given by both Airbus as well as the first few customers that the integration problems are now fully under control and that the speed at which the assembly line can start to produce is higher than what Airbus has put it on right after the problems with the harnesses became known to them.

Could it be that Airbus might manage to deliver more than one frame in 2007 and increase the outlook for 2008?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 96):
Korean Air x 3?
Qantas x 4?
Singapore Airlines ?
Lufthansa x 5-10 ?
Air France x 4 ?
Virgin x 6 ?
Qatar x 2 ?
Kingfisher x 5 ?

Is it true that FedEx have retained their options?
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 98):

Could it be that Airbus might manage to deliver more than one frame in 2007 and increase the outlook for 2008?

Regards,
Wings

Well they do have the next 3 at Hamburg being cabin fitted.......
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Topic Author
Posts: 4088
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 96):
Korean Air x 3?
Qantas x 4?
Singapore Airlines ?
Lufthansa x 5-10 ?
Air France x 4 ?
Virgin x 6 ?
Qatar x 2 ?
Kingfisher x 5 ?

Current options stand as follows according to the last data I had;

4 x Air France
4 x ILFC
5 x Kingfisher
3 x Korean Air
10 x Lufthansa
4 x Qantas
2 x Qatar Airways
6 x Singapore Air
6 x Virgin Atlantic

Quoting WINGS (Reply 98):
Could it be that Airbus might manage to deliver more than one frame in 2007 and increase the outlook for 2008?

Just today SQ confirmed that only 1 will be delivered this year with EIS late November

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 97):
whereas at first they'd indicated they were preparing to announce another double digit order.

Thanks for the update and yes, it is a double digit order. but watch for Dubai Aerospace Leasing to come into play.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 99):
Is it true that FedEx have retained their options?

Their options were cancelled along with their order

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
EI321
Posts: 5029
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 101):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 99):
Is it true that FedEx have retained their options?

Their options were cancelled along with their order

Ahh just usual a.net BS then.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 101):
Current options stand as follows according to the last data I had;

4 x Air France
4 x ILFC
5 x Kingfisher
3 x Korean Air
10 x Lufthansa
4 x Qantas
2 x Qatar Airways
6 x Singapore Air
6 x Virgin Atlantic

Emirates have none?
 
WINGS
Posts: 2315
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:36 am

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting PanAmDC_10 (Reply 101):
Current options stand as follows according to the last data I had;

4 x Air France
4 x ILFC
5 x Kingfisher
3 x Korean Air
10 x Lufthansa
4 x Qantas
2 x Qatar Airways
6 x Singapore Air
6 x Virgin Atlantic

Thanks for that PanAm_DC10

The only doubt that I have is in regards to Lufthansa. In a recent news article some references were made towards their options and only five were mentioned.

It could have been a typo as I have not managed to find those particular articles.

From the list that you provided, I think that Qatar, and even Korean may look into exercising those options in the near future. In regards to Kingfisher hopefully it will be confirmed at Le Bourget next month.  Smile

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 101):

Just today SQ confirmed that only 1 will be delivered this year with EIS late November

Well so much for my personal hunch. Even if Airbus manages to only deliver one frame in 2007, hopefully the outlook for 2008 will be improved, especially as EK and QF are also anxious to get their hands on additional lift.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Emirates Order 4 More A380s

Fri May 11, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 103):
I think that Qatar

Hasn't the chairman been quoted as saying it's only a matter of when not if they exercise those options - anyway 2 A380s is a stupid number to buy you;ll have all the overheads of a new type but only be flying them on a single route!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos