hamad
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Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 12:32 pm

I took a trip lately to go home and visit family, and this is what i noticed. after take off, as soon as the aircraft goes over 10,000 feet, or very shortly after takeoff, the seat belt signs go off (lufthansa, Emirates, Qatar airways) however, on US carriers, it takes forever for the sign to be switched off, sometimes up to even 30 min after take off. is it just me, or is there a reason for this?"
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Evan767
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 12:36 pm

Yeah, I agree, this has been something that has ticked me off. When I flew SA from CPT-JNB, the seatbelt sign was off within 2 minutes after take-off. I was somewhat shocked, but in a good way. I have been on many U.S. flights where there has been no turbulence whatsoever and the seatbelt sign was on.

The US is too uptight on this issue IMO. Maybe there will be lawsuits if someone gets hurt? Is that the reason?
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Mike89406
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting HAMAD (Thread starter):
I took a trip lately to go home and visit family, and this is what i noticed. after take off, as soon as the aircraft goes over 10,000 feet, or very shortly after takeoff, the seat belt signs go off (lufthansa, Emirates, Qatar airways) however, on US carriers, it takes forever for the sign to be switched off, sometimes up to even 30 min after take off. is it just me, or is there a reason for this?"

My experience has been that the seat belt signs dont go off as fast or have a tendency to stay on intermittently because the US airlines have a tendency to take passenger liability more strict. Basically in a nut shell the F/A's, Capt/FO even announce on a lot of flights I have taken that they prefer you to keep you're belts on regardless of the fact the airplane may not be in turbulance or hitting air pockets at the particular moment. I believe partially in case of severe turbulence suddenly is one reason.

Of course there are times when I have noticed that they are more laid back on this sometimes than on other carriers. I dont remember if they wait til cruising altitude to turn off the signs, however it seems they keep them on more than they turn them off.

Of course maybe someone else can add to what I said. Hope this helps.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 1:49 pm

I'm fine with the signs being on until cruise (except on short hops where cruise is very short), but on some flights, on a perfectly fine day with no turbulence, the sign remains on for quite a while after we reach cruise. But then on descent it doesn't come on until we've been descending for five minutes.

But overall my guess is liability issues - one of the worst things about the United States in my opinion - way too easy to sue over just about anything. It is like this in other industries and with the government as well. Various bizarre, unexplained rules are in effect all over the place, just because (for example) there is a .0005% chance that someone falls and scrapes their knee and gets a minor infection and sues for $50,000 on grounds of "inconvenience" like "I lost an important deal at work because I chose to, I mean, had to go to the doctor for my wound that day, and it lost me all this money, so I'm suing so-and-so because they didn't explicitly tell me to not walk through an area of sharp gravel while wearing high heels."

Of course, that's being extreme, but reality isn't that far off of that. I mean, people try to sue McDonald's when they get fat.

On the other hand, when I'm on Spring Break in Mexico, there are no such rules. It's basically individual awareness that is the key. If you are dumb enough to walk through gravel wearing heels and you hurt yourself, then too bad for you. The legal system in the United States does not work correctly, and is generally tied up with tort laws, reducing its effectiveness in other, more important cases.
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Flighty
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 2:23 pm

Generally, you are free to get up even if the seatbelt sign is on. It is permitted. Not legally, but it is tolerated during level flight. It is simply a passenger taking his or her legal liability into their own hands. The airline cannot guarantee your safety, but if you bladder is going to explode, you may not care. I have seen seatbelt signs on for 40-60 mins for no reason at all. Or, one little bump and the light goes back on.

In my opinion this is dumb, because it makes regular people used to breaking the "law". Suddenly the seatbelt sign is a joke, just a legal technicality rather than an actual safety device. This varies by captain, but some of them are crying wolf just to protect themselves from lawsuits.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Generally, you are free to get up even if the seatbelt sign is on. It is permitted. Not legally, but it is tolerated during level flight. It is simply a passenger taking his or her legal liability into their own hands.

Yep, unless the captain specifically asks that you stay seated due to some severe turbulence ahead, as long as you are above 10000 ft and not on descent, you can get up to use the lav without issue. They do, however, want you to return to your seat as quickly as possible when the sign is on.
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113312
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 3:11 pm

This is one of my pet peeves. Too many airlines have been sued over injuries sustained during turbulence. Hence, most pilots now just keep the sign on until top of climb. This is overkill. Then, once they turn it off and make their announcement, they turn it back on at the first hint of any turbulence. Then, they often just forget about it and it remains on forever in perfectly smooth air. The passengers get into the habit of ignoring the sign and get up at their own discretion.

It's too bad that more emphasis isn't given to better management of this communication tool. There are too many other priorities for crew training and many other issues flight crews are concerned about.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 3:30 pm

I must say, that when we do US flights we are much more mindful of lawsuits and putting the seatbelts on when there is even a slight hint or turbulence. This is not a company directive but something which people just do on US flights....and whether it is true or not, we all know what Americans are like with lawsuits.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 5:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Yep, unless the captain specifically asks that you stay seated due to some severe turbulence ahead, as long as you are above 10000 ft and not on descent, you can get up to use the lav without issue. They do, however, want you to return to your seat as quickly as possible when the sign is on.

Having the seatbelt sign on is a specific notification that you need to be seated have your seatbelt securely fastened.

Failure to do so is a violation of Federal Regulations, etc...

Not only that, how does the average pax know when they're above 10,000 feet? And where do you get such lame ideas?
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aloha73g
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 6:27 pm

On interisland flights in Hawai'i the seatbelt sign is NEVER turned off. EVER. The flights are just too short.

I know on our mainland flights the pilots try really hard to keep them off most of the time, and to make sure they give us a few minutes warning on turbulence ahead. Sometimes though, its just not smooth for long enough to turn it off.

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chrisMUC
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Having the seat belt sign on is a specific notification that you need to be seated have your seat belt securely fastened.

Failure to do so is a violation of Federal Regulations, etc...

Unfortunately your judges don't think so. Airlines have to pay a shitload of money to US passengers ignoring the signs and getting hurt. They want the signs (but not too long on without turbulence - hard to know when exactly you enter the CAT Area), an announcement from the flightdeck and F/A to check each passenger.
That's Lufthansa has changed it's policy on seat belts. Every passenger has to fasten the seat belts regardless of the signs whenever seated. In moderate!! turbulence the signs will come on and an announcement will be made by the flightdeck, then you're not supposed to leave your seat anymore.

[Edited 2007-05-12 11:59:17]
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Having the seatbelt sign on is a specific notification that you need to be seated have your seatbelt securely fastened.

Failure to do so is a violation of Federal Regulations, etc...

On a recent flight I took with Aer Arann on an ATR 72, the seatbelt sign was on for an extended period over the Irish Sea. There were children who needed to go, or were going to make a mess, so the FA asked the captain, who point blank refused to trun off the sign. The FA then informed teh childrens father that they were free to go to the lav, but they would not be insured for any damages, and they would need to return to their seats if we diod encounter turbulance.

Conversely on FR, the seatbelt sighn is rarely turned off, and the crews seem to be released for duty very quickly. I honestly do not see the problem with this. If the sign is left on, for extended periods it becomes ineffective. I would rather see the captain have to continually turn it back on after five minutes than to leave it on all of the time.

Brian.
 
chrisMUC
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 11):
I would rather see the captain have to continually turn it back on after five minutes than to leave it on all of the time.

You're absolutely right - in theory that would be the best way to handle it.
In reality you have passengers who get hurt by sudden turbulence and try to make money with it. And then the PIC is in big trouble if there was a jet stream somewhere on the significant weather chart, a mountain somewhere around or another aircraft within 200 NMs an 10000 ft reporting some turbulence.
Another problem with turning them on and off is, that when the come on a check should be performed. Some people hide their belts underneath their blanket, so the F/A have to wake them up every time the signs come on.
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 2):
or hitting air pockets

Ah, the old journo favourite...the air pocket!!! The fact that there is no such thing is of no concern!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 9:50 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Having the seatbelt sign on is a specific notification that you need to be seated have your seatbelt securely fastened.

Failure to do so is a violation of Federal Regulations, etc...

Blah, blah.

This is NOT how the rule is applied in practice. Anyone who's flown much knows that what I wrote is how it really is. Yes, you are supposed to be seated, but again, unless the F/As are informed the sign is on due to a real pending danger and have been asked to sit down themselves, they will let you go to the bathroom as long as you are above FL100.

In the USA, the sign is used to control passenger movement, not just for safety.
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Clipper136
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 10:05 pm

There is a real simple answer.

Most US airlines turn off the seatbelt sign after passing thru 10,000 ft. But if you are in busy airspace, like in the NE US or Western US (LAX Area), where there are lots of other aircraft climbing on other airports approach and departure paths, you may not be able to climb directly and have to step climb. The obviously add more to the amount of time that the seatbelt sign is on. This happens quite a lot in the NYC area.
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nycfly75
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sat May 12, 2007 10:09 pm

The captain will "blink" the seatbeat sign upon reaching 10K feet to let the flight crew know that they can begin to move around the cabin after takeoff.
 
lincoln
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 2):
Basically in a nut shell the F/A's, Capt/FO even announce on a lot of flights I have taken that they prefer you to keep you're belts on regardless of the fact the airplane may not be in turbulance or hitting air pockets at the particular moment

In the US they're actually required to make that announcement:

14 CFR 121.571(a)(2) "After each takeoff, immediately before or immediately after turning the seat belt sign off, an announcement shall be made that passengers should keep their seat belts fastened, while seated, even when the seat belt sign is off."

My expericence with airlines recently has led me to beleive that the seatbelt sign is completely worthless -- actually, several of my recent flights the sign was either never turned off or turned off for only a few relatively short periods even though the entire flights were "smooth as silk". I've also noticed that when turbulence is expected the captain will make a special announcement. I used to obsess abouit not getting up while the sign was on, and still try to avoid it I no longer feel like the world will end if I do.

My rule of thumb is that from the time I first decide that business needs to be attended to, as long has there hasn't been a turbulence announcement, I will wait about 90 minutes for the sign to go off -- if it's still on, then I will carefully do what I have to do.

Lincoln
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xjet
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 2:59 am

The seatbelt sign is completely worthless. Using it is a carefl measure. You don't want to play musical chairs with the passengers. And since we are required to make announcements when we do it, it is bad to turn it on and off a lot.

For those of you wondering why most Ca's wait until top-of-climb to turn it off, it is very simple. You never really know what the rides are like ahead of you in the climb. Until to get to that altitude and make sure that it is smooth, it should be left on. Also, some aircraft have a higher deck angle than others during the climb. i.e. RJs.

But, in the end, people never pay attention to it really. They even get up while you are moving on the ground, in which case the a/c has to be stopped. Hell, I even had someone getting up on short final and we had to go around and try again. Better bladder planning is in order.
 
phllax
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:23 am

I think the real reason is that in many foreign countres, the F/A's can only be released when the captain turns off the seat belt sign. Here in the US, my experience is that they do the following to release the F/A's: 1) blink the no smoking or seat belt sign for a 2 bell notice; 2) Announce the passing through 10,000 or; 3) on US Airways East Airbus fleet turn off the No Electronic Devices sign.

Recently on LY, the F/A's were released at 10,000 when the captain turned off the seat belt sign. Same thing happened on China Southern and Indian a few years back. On the Indian and China Southern fights, we have some minor chop at the time, and we all were amazed that the seat blt sign was turned off.
 
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EK413
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:33 am

Possible this is a new regulation on US carriers due to the events of 9/11..?
EK413
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scouse
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:42 am

The comments from XJET in reply 18 show why most people do not take any notice of the seat belt sign and he is abusing his authority.
As a pilot with up to 400 people behind him he should know that some of them will need the bathroom for some of the time he leaves the sign on. If he then decides to turn the sign off (even though the previous 60 minutes have been smooth) and the dinner or breakfast service just starts we are still locked into our seats for the next 30 minutes.
As he is under 25 according to his profile his bladder control will be a lot better than when he gets to 60 so I wonder if he will still have the same view on bladder control then.

Quoting XJET (Reply 18):
But, in the end, people never pay attention to it really. They even get up while you are moving on the ground, in

I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.
I always used to obey the signs but so many pilots have left the sign on when it is fairly obvious that it could be turned off that myself and other people will then take no notice. False alarms can be more dangerous than no alarm when it is necessary.
Love to fly
 
dimondan
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:59 am

One thing to know. The seat belt chime is supposed to always happen at 10,000 ft. to let the flight attendants know that the sterile cockpit has been lifted.
"Approaching V-1"
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting Dimondan (Reply 22):
One thing to know. The seat belt chime is supposed to always happen at 10,000 ft. to let the flight attendants know that the sterile cockpit has been lifted

This depends on the airline. We have a sterile cockpit whenever we are not in the cruise.
 
georgebush
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.

XJET is a pilot, and in being one, I believe he flys a lot more than you. I know many platnums think they spend their entire lives on planes just because the airline tells them they fly a lot, but really they have no idea what its like to spend A LOT of time on a plane.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
scouse
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
XJET is a pilot, and in being one, I believe he flys a lot more than you. I know many platnums think they spend their entire lives on planes just because the airline tells them they fly a lot, but really they have no idea what its like to spend A LOT of time on a plane.

I think you got the wrong message from my post but Mr Bush I will take note of your signature and not argue with you.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!

But I think I may have more experience and some pilots do leave the seat belt sign on when they do not need to, end of argument
Love to fly
 
georgebush
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting Scouse (Reply 25):
I think you got the wrong message from my post

So were you not implying that because you are a platinum and have only seen people stand once before docking, that it rarely happens?? A platinum card does not equal pilot ratings!!

Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.

If not please explain youself, and i'll mind my own quote thanks!  

[Edited 2007-05-13 04:56:48]
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
georgebush
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
As he is under 25 according to his profile his bladder control will be a lot better than when he gets to 60 so I wonder if he will still have the same view on bladder control then.

Mate, any bladder problems you are experienceing should be discussed with your healthcare provider. Even though you are a platinum, the CAPTIN is still in charge of the airplane. The seatbelt signs dont go on and off only when Platinums have to get up to use the lav. He can turn the sign on and off when he damn well pleases (its one of the perks of the job).
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
Boston92
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Not only that, how does the average pax know when they're above 10,000 feet? And where do you get such lame ideas?

The captain will turn off the "no smoking" sign and turn it right back on to signal that the use of PED's may be used (aka being above 10,000 feet) or the captain will simply make an announcement.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 1:47 pm

We all need to remember, that despite many people saying things like they are fact, that different airlines do things differently and although people are not qualifying their posts by saying that a certain procedure is done at a certain airline they know, please be mindful that any 'fact' expressed here may only apply to one single airline.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
In the USA, the sign is used to control passenger movement, not just for safety.

Couldn't agree with you more mate!! I've seen the seatbelt sign come on at the commencement of the meal service on a us carrier (despite NO turbulence whatsovever) then go off after the service had finished!!

Personally I think it becomes like a 'boy who cried wolf' situation; pax see the seatbelt sign used very liberally over and over; yet the day that it's actually on due to anticipated turbulence, nobody will take any notice...

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 29):
We all need to remember, that despite many people saying things like they are fact, that different airlines do things differently and although people are not qualifying their posts by saying that a certain procedure is done at a certain airline they know, please be mindful that any 'fact' expressed here may only apply to one single airline.

Absolutely!!
For example, QF is the only airline i've know of where the seatbelt sign is an indication for EVERYONE onbaord, including cabin crew. So, for example, if the seatbelt sign comes on during the meal service, the crew will stop service and sit down. Then if a passenger stands up, they'll be told/made to sit down.
As a QF F/A, this was hard to get used to at first; but now I think it's the best way to go. Rather than the whole "do as I say, not as I do" image, having crew also obeying the seatbelt sign really enforces the importance of it.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Sun May 13, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 3):
The legal system in the United States does not work correctly, and is generally tied up with tort laws, reducing its effectiveness in other, more important cases.

Hey mate, if it's any consolation, you're not the only country like this. Australia is essentially just as bad  Yeah sure
 
xjet
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
The comments from XJET in reply 18 show why most people do not take any notice of the seat belt sign and he is abusing his authority.
As a pilot with up to 400 people behind him he should know that some of them will need the bathroom for some of the time he leaves the sign on. If he then decides to turn the sign off (even though the previous 60 minutes have been smooth) and the dinner or breakfast service just starts we are still locked into our seats for the next 30 minutes.
As he is under 25 according to his profile his bladder control will be a lot better than when he gets to 60 so I wonder if he will still have the same view on bladder control then.

Quoting XJET (Reply 18):
But, in the end, people never pay attention to it really. They even get up while you are moving on the ground, in

I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.
I always used to obey the signs but so many pilots have left the sign on when it is fairly obvious that it could be turned off that myself and other people will then take no notice. False alarms can be more dangerous than no alarm when it is necessary.

I am not even going to try to have this argument with you. But I will say this. I am betting that if you were responsible for the lives of passengers, fellow crew members, and a mutil-million dollar piece of equipment you would be thinking a lot more about safety and responsibility. I take offense at the way you discredit me and the job I do based on something as stupid as a seatbelt sign. Everyday I am held liable for all the things mentioned above, and one screw up could lead to being fired, having my license revoked, being sued, or thrown in jail if being found criminally negligent.

I am really happy that you think you have gained expertise in your platinum status, but you don't have years in the cockpit or flight experience that I can see. You test something as an engineer. That's all I know about you. So make all the comments about the sign that you want, but don't insult my job performance or me in any way. You know nothing about me. For your information, I have the bladder of a 2 year old and have to get out all the time. I do my best to be concious of this while flying and always do my very best to accomodate my passengers. I would even do that for you.
 
nwa757boy
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
Not only that, how does the average pax know when they're above 10,000 feet?

Where I used to work, it was a single chime and the sterile flight deck light turning off. (Blue light). I then made after departure announcements including "..we are now above 10,000ft and the use of portable electronics is permitted.."

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.

and since youre platinum you know everything right?

XJET is a pilot, and in being one, I believe he flys a lot more than you. I know many platnums think they spend their entire lives on planes just because the airline tells them they fly a lot, but really they have no idea what its like to spend A LOT of time on a plane.

Agreed


Some pilots I have flown with specifically noted in the pre-flight briefing they will not turn off the fasten seat belt sign until im done with the service and contact the flight deck after the service is over.

Regardless of when the seat belt sign is turned on or off, the majority of people still get up and move around the cabin without any consideration of the seatbelt sign. It doesn't bother me at all unless we are below 10,000ft.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 15):
Most US airlines turn off the seatbelt sign after passing thru 10,000 ft.

No they don't.

As you've read in other posts the chimes at 10,000' climbing or descending are to use approved electronic devices or to turn them off and also get get the passenger cabin ready for landing when in the descent.

Quoting Scouse (Reply 21):
I have been platinum in skyteam for the last 4 years and only seen this happen once but he is indicating that everybody does this.

Got ya beat.....CO Platinum for 5 yrs!  Smile Who gives a shit.

If you actually have been on as many flights as you say then you have seen folks get up while the aircraft is taxiing, and I have witnessed poor lav planning on final, only reason we didn't go around was we were at about 50' when the knucklehead got up.

No, XJET isn't saying everyone does this, only that it happens from time to time when folks just don't use their heads, but does happen...and those will be the people who get tossed from the ceiling in turbulence when the seat belt sign is clearly on because they didn't think it meant anything.
 banghead 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
burnsie28
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:48 am

It's mostly up to the cabin, keep in mind airlines in the US especially NW, CO, and HP have advanced weather warning systems from Northwest's Meteorology, which CO uses for their flight planning. They can see where turbulence is coming and one HP pilot told me that if its red on NW's map they will avoid it. Also, for instance on NW they announce "It's Northwest Airlines policy that when seated your seatbelt is securely fastened at all times". Remember that United plane several years ago where a few people died when they hit bad turbulence, where the NW plane had some other weather systems that they were able to avoid this. Of course lawsuits came out of that (American and non-american). Costs United quite a pretty penny, this is why airlines do this.
 
doug_or
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 2:52 am

READ THIS:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 29):
We all need to remember, that despite many people saying things like they are fact, that different airlines do things differently and although people are not qualifying their posts by saying that a certain procedure is done at a certain airline they know, please be mindful that any 'fact' expressed here may only apply to one single airline.

THANK YOU.

just in case anyone missed it te first time, very true.

And for the love of god, go before you go.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
757lgw
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 24):
XJET is a pilot, and in being one, I believe he flys a lot more than you. I know many platnums think they spend their entire lives on planes just because the airline tells them they fly a lot, but really they have no idea what its like to spend A LOT of time on a plane.

And being a pilot im sure he flys a lot less than me, try working as ryanair cabin crew, sometimes you think you spend your life in that cabin and yes i can say people getting up while the aircraft is taxing happens all the time. Yesturday for example on the 1st flight of the day this woman got up and started messing around with the overhead lockers, i asked her to sit down and her reply was "i think my mobile phone is still on" The 2nd flight of the day started to taxi when i guy got up stood in the aisle and started rocking his baby which then began to cry, god knows why he couldnt have just sat there it was asleep on his lap.!!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 35):
for instance on NW they announce "It's Northwest Airlines policy that when seated your seatbelt is securely fastened at all times".

Same policy on CO.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 4:44 am

Wow... just... wow. Methinks some of you need to read some FARs, particularly in Part 121.

The announcement made before takeoff includes the statement "Federal regulations require that passengers obey all crewmember instructions, placards and SIGNS located onboard the aircraft. Failure to do so may result in civil or ciminal penalties."

In addition, it also states that passengers "must remain seated with their seatbelts securely fastened [SNIP] when the fastened seatbelt sign is illuminated."


You can't argue with that no matter how hard you try. It's in the rulebook  Wink

Of course, this wouldn't necessarily apply to foreign-operated aircraft in foreign airspace.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 35):
It's mostly up to the cabin, keep in mind airlines in the US especially NW, CO, and HP have advanced weather warning systems from Northwest's Meteorology, which CO uses for their flight planning. They can see where turbulence is coming and one HP pilot told me that if its red on NW's map they will avoid it.

Northwest's Meteorology department is not the end-all-be-all of weather providers. There are other providers that do just as good a job—if not better.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
xjet
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 35):
. They can see where turbulence is coming and one HP pilot told me that if its red on NW's map they will avoid it.

This is pretty true. However, at XE we do not get maps printed out for us. At CO they get a weather packet that contains printed weather maps and pedictions of turbulence. Weget wind shear factor numbers on our release, but they are only as accurate as the winds aloft forecasts, which are not very accurate. The best reports we get are from other aircraft ahead. And those reports aren't always readily available. ATC does a great job of keeping up with PIREPS on ride conditions, but sometimes they don't have anyone at that altitude within a time period that would be deemed accurate. Therefore, we play it safe and leave the sign on until we are at cruise and notice that the ride is smooth.
 
lincoln
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 38):
Same policy on CO.

_Every_ domestic airline should be/is required to make that announcment....well, assuming that they turn the seat belt sign off:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 17):
14 CFR 121.571(a)(2) "After each takeoff, immediately before or immediately after turning the seat belt sign off, an announcement shall be made that passengers should keep their seat belts fastened, while seated, even when the seat belt sign is off."

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
xjet
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 42):
_Every_ domestic airline should be/is required to make that announcment

It is required, and all airlines do have this policy. However, I think this can be accomplished by the flight attendants in the announce they make after takeoff. At CO and COEX, just after takeoff the FA's make an announcement welcoming OnePass, etc. They also say "When the CA turns off the fasten seatbelt sign.......if you remain in your seat....." Something to that effect anyway. I think this satisfies the announcement required. But, if the seatbelt sign is turned back on, either the pilot or the FA must make an announcement reiterating the meaning of the sign and instruct everyone to return to their seat. This announcement is one reason we try to avoid turning it on and off over and over again.
 
lincoln
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting XJET (Reply 43):
At CO and COEX, just after takeoff the FA's make an announcement welcoming OnePass, etc. They also say "When the CA turns off the fasten seatbelt sign.......if you remain in your seat....." Something to that effect anyway. I think this satisfies the announcement required.

Beleve me I know that announcement well being a CLE-based business traveller I've come to know Continental and ExpressJet d/b/a Continental Express quite well.... there's something about the phrase "...will be earning valuable miles..." that makes me cringe. I too believe that this announcement satisfies the requirement of the FAR. I don't believe the FAR requires an announcement before the sign is turned off _every_ time, although this may be a company policy.*

On mainline flights (or at least the mainline flights I wind up on, most frequently CLE-LAX-CLE and CLE-EWR-CLE but a few other runs mixed in) there is usually _no_ announcement when the sign is turned off, and only sometimes an announcement when the signed is turned on (usually depending on how busy the FAs are, it seems)

On my past few ExpressJet flights (CLE-RIC-CLE a couple times, CLE-PHL, and CLE-RDU-CLE twice) I can't recall the sign ever being turned off, so I can't comment on their announcements.

Lincoln

*- I interpret 14 CFR 121.571(a)(2) as requiring the announcement only before or contemperoraneously with the setbelt sign being turned off; if the intentaion of the rule was that the announcement be made _every_ time the sign is turned off the language "After each takeoff" would be unncesessary.
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Mon May 14, 2007 10:58 am

As I said at Hawaiian the seatbelt sign pretty much never goes off on interisland flights, however after the 10,000 ft "ding" we are supposed to make an announcement along the lines of:

"Ladies and gentlemen we'd like to call your attention to the no-smoking and fasten seatbelt signs. Should the captain turn off the seatbelt signs during our flight we do reccomend that you continue to wear your seatbelt in the event we encounter any unexpected turbulence. In just a few moments we will be starting our island beverage service....."

OR, you play the same announcement from the PRAM (Pre-Recorded Announcement Machine).

A similar after takeoff anouncement is made on our trans-pac flights, however I ahve never never heard anyone make an announcement each time the sign is turned off. We do, however, have to make one each time it goes ON.

-Aloha!
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hamad
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Tue May 15, 2007 5:56 am

one thing i noticed too on KLM, that if the sign is on the crew will be anal about you getting back to your seat, while a lot of times on US carriers they wouldn't say a thing unless its during climb, or under 10,000 feet.
PHX - i miss spotting
 
PGNCS
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Tue May 15, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 1):
The US is too uptight on this issue IMO. Maybe there will be lawsuits if someone gets hurt? Is that the reason?

In a word, yes.

Carriers have policies on seat belt sign use. The policies are ultimately tempered by the judgment of the Captain. Many carriers wait until the top of climb to turn the sign off, though policies vary widely, to ensure that the cruise altitude (as opposed to intermediate altitudes) is smooth. The Flight Attendants don't want to start their service just to have to stow everything again.

In a word, relax about the sign; there's a reason for it being used the way it is. (Occasionally it IS forgotten, but Flight Attendants will remind us if it's been on too long and it's smooth.) I don't see how remaining seated for the first 30 minutes of the flight is ordinarily a problem.
 
carnoc
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Tue May 15, 2007 9:36 am

I know this sounds stupid to some, but a lot of pilots do the same regardless of airline carriers, so this is not a "USA-only" thing.

Having worked in civil aviation industry for more than half decade, I have asked countless number of pilots from various carriers worldwide on this issue. While most will adjust the seat-belt sign throughout the flight, some pilots simply don't do this.

For those do not adjust seat-belt sign throughout the flight, some simply do not care, while others consider that it is recommended for passengers to keep their seat-belts on while seated in case of unexpected turbulence etc, also some airlines have either official or un-official policies requiring pilots to do so etc.
 
iairallie
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RE: Seat Belt Sign On Usa Airlines, Why So Long?

Tue May 15, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
It is simply a passenger taking his or her legal liability into their own hands.


Yes and no. Who is liable if a passenger gets up and then gets tossed into another passenger injuring an innocent 3rd party seated properly in his/her seat?

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 15):
There is a real simple answer.

Most US airlines turn off the seatbelt sign after passing thru 10,000 ft. But if you are in busy airspace, like in the NE US or Western US (LAX Area), where there are lots of other aircraft climbing on other airports approach and departure paths, you may not be able to climb directly and have to step climb. The obviously add more to the amount of time that the seatbelt sign is on. This happens quite a lot in the NYC area.

I think that is one of your answers. There is more airtraffic in the US especially in major metropolitan areas.
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