anzacbat
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Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 4:39 am

 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 4:52 am

Wow, that sounds like it was pretty close. Definitely sounds like the EMB-120 pilots will be at fault here.

It would be interesting to listen to the ATC tapes for those couple of minutes. I'm sure it got hectic.

Glad everyone is OK.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
Wow, that sounds like it was pretty close. Definitely sounds like the EMB-120 pilots will be at fault here.

It could very well be either party, or even 50/50. Y and Z are the normal turnoffs used by most aircraft at LAX; they didn't land long in this situation. Traffic heading to the south complex will generally follow Y to E to shorten their taxi time. I'm curious as to exactly what instruction(s) was issued here.
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macc
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 5:40 am

hm, 172 pax on that "jumbo" 346? not a lot of load for VS here...
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mymorningsong
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 2):
I'm curious as to exactly what instruction(s) was issued here.

From another local newspaper...

~~~

With the jumbo jet fast approaching, a controller told the SkyWest pilot, "Keep it rolling, please, turn left off the runway."

The controller directed the small plane toward an airfield intersection, where two taxiways meet the runway like two roads meeting a highway. One requires a slight swerve to the left; the other requires a hard left turn.

The controller instructed the plane to take the easy turn onto a taxiway called Zulu, to keep it moving and get it out of the way of the landing jetliner. Instead, the SkyWest plane veered hard and started down the wrong taxiway. "I said Zulu, sir, turn left off the runway," the controller said.

The SkyWest plane stopped. Then it turned around, headed back toward the intersection, and turned onto the correct taxiway - even as the jumbo jet raced toward the runway.

"Stop right there," the controller ordered the small plane as a siren sounded in the control tower, warning of a potential collision. Another controller told the jumbo jet to abort its landing and circle around, but it was too late.

~~~

Interesting that they couldn't abort landing. I would have thought they could just throttle up again and pull up. Another phenomenal job by LAX ATC. These guys have prevented disasters way too often lately. Forget Nimby's, Villaragosa and others. Let ATC and the FAA determine what safety changes need to be made to the runways and spend the money. Updating the terminals is important, but safety comes first. Seems like it has to take a disaster to prevent a future one.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:10 am

Visual of the interesection. You can clearly see the safety zone lines for both runways.

The boneneaded thing was turning around on the taxiway and heading back toward the runway. The controller actually should not have bothered telling him he was on the "wrong" taxiway in the first place. He likely did it out of annoyance. If that was where he was going, it was too late to stop him. If he had not turned around, he would have been long clear by the time the jet got there.
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co777er
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:21 am

Liveatc.net doesn't carry LAX TWR, however, does anyone know where the audio might be found?
 
n53614
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:22 am

Taxiing at a busy airport is the hardest part. I am suprised this doesn't happen more often...
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IAHFLYR
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting CO777ER (Reply 6):
does anyone know where the audio might be found?

Yep, in the facility quality assurance office and most likely FAA HQ, oh mayb the NTSB has a copy as well.

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 5):
The controller actually should not have bothered telling him he was on the "wrong" taxiway in the first place. He likely did it out of annoyance. If that was where he was going, it was too late to stop him.

Now you are "the man"! Well said....but my curious side, yet again asks.....aircraft on 3 mile final when SkyWest is rolling out....that is not even a huge issue, but somehow found it's own way to turn it into a very big issue! Things to find out when the offical transcripts are out.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 5):
The boneneaded thing was turning around on the taxiway and heading back toward the runway.

I completely agree. It seems to me, if the plane was clear of the active to begin with and then was notified that he turned onto the wrong taxiway (and had not reached the active departure runway), he would have stayed in place awaiting further instruction...
 
n710ps
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 12:48 pm

Now I understand how this works and that this is a serious issue obviously and there is a trend going on at LAX but I also want to point out the human aspect of it all. Humans will be humans and errors are made and I understand it intamately from the controllers aspect as well as the pilots aspect being a medically releived pilot for the time being and a current ramp controller at a larger metropolitan airport. Pilots make mistakes and controllers with heavy work loads make mistakes. Is it acceptable? Defineately not? Is it defendable? Most certainly though. I think that something is to be said though in respect to procedure for this particular airport. Has there been a procerdural change in recent times at LAX that is createing this issue perhaps? Maybe? Should the people running the show in that tower (Tower Cheifs, Operation Supervisors) be questioned and scrutinized? I think so. The reason I say this is because as some may or may not know whom dwell on this site every tower and ATC center has supervisors etc... like any other work enviorment that are below the rule makers. Within this realm there is certain people who may perfer a certain format that works for them and might not work for another individual. This could also be said that maybe there is not enough being done to ensure a safe uniform procedure for genereal use. For example, at work I feel comfortable moving up to five airplnes at once with 4 to 6 positions and approved movements because I know what might or might not cause a conflict where as my superior might think that though the room and regulations say this is approved it is not acceptable for him. He might for instance want me to move no more than 3 or 4 through six authorized procedures at once. Let us not cut anyones head off at all and remain centered really.

[Edited 2007-05-13 06:05:36]
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echster
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 1:03 pm

I saw this story on the news tonight (CBS2) here in SoCal.

FAA officials initially determined the two arriving aircraft may have come within 50 feet of each other, however a computer-assisted reconstruction of the incident revealed the larger jet's wing may have come as close as 21 feet to the smaller plane, according to media reports.

The pilot of the Virgin Atlantic plane reportedly "felt at no time that the safety of the passengers was in question."


http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_132094443.html
 
Boston92
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 1:14 pm

I had seen the arrivng 346 (as I saw every arriving plane for LAX, LGB, and other airports) from Warren High School in Downey which is right under the approach for 24 and 25 L/R. I remember the A346, and even videoed it!
 
ncelhr
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:03 pm

Perhaps is it time to start thinking about traffic lights on large airports?
I am amazed that with today's age of electronics, computers etc. ground ATC is still undertaken in the same way as it was 30 years ago.
 
JayDub
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 13):
Perhaps is it time to start thinking about traffic lights on large airports?
I am amazed that with today's age of electronics, computers etc. ground ATC is still undertaken in the same way as it was 30 years ago.

Electronics are likely less reliable...more room for error. Sure, humans will make mistakes...but they can be corrected much more quickly than when relying on something non-human to tell you what to do.

Have you ever sat at a traffic light that stuck on red for much longer than it should have because the system failed? Apply the same concept here...only think stuck green light at runway crossing.
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InnocuousFox
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Sun May 13, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 13):
Perhaps is it time to start thinking about traffic lights on large airports?

Really, how would that have changed things?
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IADCA
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Mon May 14, 2007 12:57 am

I realize this has little to do with the issue at hand, but even if the paths of the aircraft intersected, is it possible that the outer part of the 340's wing (outboard of the #1 or #4 engine, depending which way it was traveling) could pass directly over a Brasilia without hitting it? Even the tail of a Brasilia's only 6.5 meters tall, and there might be that much clear space under the 340's wing. Couldn't find a number anywhere though (and maybe the flaps being out would matter, also...). Anyone happen to know how high off the ground a 340's wing is?
 
jfk777
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Mon May 14, 2007 1:25 am

I'm surprised LAX hasn't built a commuter runway with its 4 main runways. May be LAX should go with slots like JFK and ORD.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Mon May 14, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
May be LAX should go with slots like JFK and ORD.

MMM intersting, like to know how slots would reduce this type of event?

[Edited 2007-05-13 20:51:35]
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InnocuousFox
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Mon May 14, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 18):
MMM intersting, like to know how slots would reduce this type of event?

It wouldn't. You could get 2 arrivals a day... but if they are 3 miles apart, you have the same potential for problems. This is so completely an overreaction. At most, LAX has about 2 operations every minute. That's divided across the 2 sides and 4 runways. So, each runway has an operation every 2 minutes at it's peak. That's hardly pushing the envelope here people.
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ncelhr
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Mon May 14, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 14):
Have you ever sat at a traffic light that stuck on red for much longer than it should have because the system failed? Apply the same concept here...only think stuck green light at runway crossing.

We all know that these are automated, and less reliable than anything required for aviation.  Smile

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 15):
Really, how would that have changed things?

Having controlled stop bars at the entrance of Y taxiway and green centerline lights on taxiway Z could have made sure the aircraft was using Z. With today's LED technology, this could remove ambiguities.

I believe the FAA is currently looking into a slightly different type of runway incursion - there's another thread on a.net briefly mentioning it, although I do not know what the status is currently.
Check: http://www.rwsl.net/
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Tue May 15, 2007 11:07 pm

Flight International have now reported it as per the following link

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ss-at-lax-under-investigation.html

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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SailorOrion
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Tue May 15, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 20):
We all know that these are automated, and less reliable than anything required for aviation.

I'm not quite sure about traffic lights in UK or the US, but in 10 years of driving 400.000km in cars, I've only seen ONE failing traffic light, and that was because some drunk managed to hit the box where the electronics were in ....

SailorOrion
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Tue May 15, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 19):
At most, LAX has about 2 operations every minute.

2 operations? I think you mean two arrivals...there's no way LAX could work with two operations every minute. Not to mention that technically ground movements are operations also.  Wink
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 23):
2 operations? I think you mean two arrivals



Each segment is 5 minutes. Each segment is showing no more than 5 each of either arrivals or departures. That makes 10 total per 5 minutes. I'll let you do the rest.

Let's assume they are evenly split. Arrivals are 3 miles apart at the minimum. Let's say 5 for all the heavies. At 180 kts, that's 3 miles to the minute, so they are a minute and a half apart. There are 2 arrival flows at any given time, so that is 2 arrivals every minute and a half. Of course, you now double this or so for departures.

BUT. That's at peak capacity. They are only rarely running at peak capacity. As the chart shows (although this is a bad time of day to look at), there's just not that much business there.

The point is, landing slots wouldn't give you crap since you are hardly in need of spreading things out much. There's all sorts of room in the timeline to work.
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TurkishWings
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 5:29 am

The loads on VS look pretty low though.. Only 172 pax?  Smile
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ATCGOD
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 5:41 am

Hi IFox. So your graph shows there is not one planned departure between roughly 1815 and 1930? I don't believe that. Can you post the link where you got this graph from? flightaware.com shows LAX handles more than 100 ops per hour during their peak times. But yes, you are right about LAX handling roughly 2 ops per minute.  Wink
http://flightaware.com/analysis/graphs/airport/KLAX

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 24):

BUT. That's at peak capacity. They are only rarely running at peak capacity.

LAX rarely runs at peak capacity? Define peak capacity please.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 22):
I'm not quite sure about traffic lights in UK or the US, but in 10 years of driving 400.000km in cars, I've only seen ONE failing traffic light, and that was because some drunk managed to hit the box where the electronics were in ....

SailorOrion

I've only seen one traffic light fail for non-weather reasons myself, and although I'm not sure what the reason was, I distinctly remember this because the traffic light was stuck on YELLOW!
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Tugger
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 21):
Flight International have now reported it as per the following link

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ss-at-lax-under-investigation.html

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Yeah, I saw that. What I was wondering though was how Virgin Atlantic makes any money on an A340-600 carrying 172 passengers and crew. Where were they coming from?

Tug
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InnocuousFox
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 26):
So your graph shows there is not one planned departure between roughly 1815 and 1930?

The graph came from Flight Explorer. It doesn't show the departures out that far some of the time.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 26):
But yes, you are right about LAX handling roughly 2 ops per minute.

So the Fox comes through anyway. NEVER argue math with the I-Fox!  cool 

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 26):
LAX rarely runs at peak capacity? Define peak capacity please.

Look at the graphs you posted. They have some room to work, there. They spend a good chunk of the day at 80-90/hour. Only once in a while do they max out at 105/hour (i.e. still < 2/minute).
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graphic
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
Wow, that sounds like it was pretty close. Definitely sounds like the EMB-120 pilots will be at fault here.

I don't know about that, there seems to be some discrepancy between what the pilots and controllers actually meant when the controllers were urging them off the runway.

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 5):
The controller actually should not have bothered telling him he was on the "wrong" taxiway in the first place.

I agree, in doing such, as a pilot I would infer that the controller wants me on a certain taxiway for a reason, and I'd do well to get on that taxiway. If if wasn't important (as seems the case), a new taxi clearance could have been easily given.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 26):

LAX rarely runs at peak capacity? Define peak capacity please.

IIRC, when an airport reaches ATC delays of 45 minutes, it is said to be running at peak capacity.
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aaway
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 5):
The boneneaded thing was turning around on the taxiway and heading back toward the runway. The controller actually should not have bothered telling him he was on the "wrong" taxiway in the first place. He likely did it out of annoyance.

Yes, two equally boneheaded miscues in that both the action and reaction nearly resulted in disaster. I can't imagine what the OO cockpit could've been thinking. And since that crew is an EM-120 crew, I'd think they'd be quite familiar with LAX - its traffic and operations.

With the controller, the reaction could've have been arrogance as much as annoyance. If you listen to some controllers, it seems an affront if a pilot errs or questions an instruction.

Should've simply issued a "hold short" instruction.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
I'm surprised LAX hasn't built a commuter runway with its 4 main runways

At one time (mid 70s), LAX had a VFR - STOL runway marked on the current day Twy A. Don't know how much usage it got while in existance.
I'd say give it about 10 - 12 years before LAWA begins to seriously move on additional capacity. The settlement that permitted the most recent construction projects expires in 2020.

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 26):
LAX rarely runs at peak capacity? Define peak capacity please

As the FAA currently defines peak airport capacity based upon runway configuration, weather, and traffic mix, LAXs' max. hourly capacity is about 150 ops p/hour.

[Edited 2007-05-16 01:21:00]

[Edited 2007-05-16 01:36:58]
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futurecaptain
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RE: Another Close Call At LAX

Wed May 16, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
Definitely sounds like the EMB-120 pilots will be at fault here.

I'd like to know who decided it was "too late" for the VS pilots to go around?? I know alot, if not most or all, US airlines have policies where if anyone...co-pilot, captain, a mysterious voice on the radio, ect says go-around you add power and do it. I would assume VS would have a similar policy. You can always sort out your reasons for going around when you are safely in the air.
Hell, I learned that go-around rule before I got my PPL. Someone else may see something that you have missed, just go around and work out the details later.
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