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azstagecoach
Topic Author
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Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 2:55 am

I was sitting in a WN 73G on the taxiway at SAN yesterday when a cargo 727(but not from one of the big shippers) took off before us. As it climbed, I was sure there was a fire in one of the engines due to a long dark smoke tail. But as nothing happened, I assume this is the normal exhaust for this 727 at take-off.

Are all 727's this polluting, and how do they compare to, say, the MD-80? Isn't there some sort of law that restricts the output?
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 3:06 am

Actually, it wasn't the 727 at all. It made little if any pollution, but it was hosting three Pratt & Whitney JT-8 turbofan engines which do make a bit more smoke than what we are used to seeing from modern engines. This engine was also used on the 737-100 and -200, the DC-9s, and in upgraded form in the MD narrow bodies. The JT-8 was still a quieter and more efficient engine than its contemporaries.
Jets are for kids
 
access-air
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 5:25 am

If you have such a reaction to this 727 making a little smoke, take a look thru soem of the older pictures on this website of the late 60s or early 70s before the little JT8s were retrofitted with burner cans that burned the Jet fuel without producing all that black soot. I remember back in 1977 on my first visit to Moline Airport, I watched an Ozark DC9-15, N491SA rip out of there leaving a thick trail of black soot. It was awesome!!! Somewhere I had heard that it was once a help to aid in jet airtcraft seeing each other flying along making all that smoke. I have seen most all jets make some sort of smoke at one time or another.
You'd really freak if you lived when all the Water injected turbojets were the order of the day in use on the early 707 and DC8s. Heck the Convair 880s and 990s didnt even need water injection, they just made copious amounts of smoke.
I watched a nice little BAC One Eleven blasty out my hometown airport back in 1979, not only was it shatteringly loud (No Huskits) the soot it left hung in the air forever and you could still see the trail all the way to the plane 10 mins after it took off....
The ultimate was one day I was at OHare and the Brazilian President was there along with his Boeing 707. As I was in the Butler Terminal awaiting my flight home, the building shook and I raced to the window in enuff time to see that Brazilian Air Force 707 taking off and spewing out a thunderous roar and thick thick black smoke. It was awesome...The smoke just hung in the air for 20 minutes or so and trailed all the way to the plane.......
I guess we have this generation of people that think that because it was before their time, it must not have happened. Believe me, smoking, belching loud planes did exist and in some places still do......And there is nothing like getting to see just exactly how a jet is supposed to sound whever one of those older planes operates.
I am sure that many would agree with me here....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 5:40 am

It may be politically correct but I miss those old oil burners. Those old 737's and 727's belched black smoke pretty well but one of the best and loudest I saw was a few years back. It was a British Air Force VC-10 blasting out of YYC. What a noisy, spewing pig. Very sweet.
What the...?
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 5:58 am

I remember well the first generation of jet in general and the JT-8 powered aircraft in particular.
All the 727's, 737's and DC-9's were VERY smoky untill better burner-cans and other upgrades were added at the end of the sixties. (They still were dirty engines----you just couldn't "see" the polution as bad). Since the rage was "tail-mounted" engines----it was quite common to see the different liveries of the airlines blackened out by soot from the cycles of reverse-thrust. (Does anyone remember those first two PI 727's? OMG the whole tail became black!)

You could really tell who had the time and the manpower to keep those tail clean. Most did not!
Oh, and remember the vertical black smudge on the side of the 737's just aft of the wings.
It could really get to looking bad!

A morning push at ATL(or any other major airport in the mid-sixties) saw aircraft departing spewing black contrails in every direction untill the whole surrounding horizon just became blackened out! You could actually stand out on the ramp here at ATL and see a cloud of black smoke billowing out in the area behind the departing jets and also hanging over the aircraft just sitting and idiling, waiting for take-off clearance. (Since the airport kind of sits in a "basin", the smoke would just settle in and blanket the whole area towards the end of the push!) And it wasn't just the pure-jets either----the L-188's were pretty smoky too!

 old 
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
cubastar
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 6:16 am

Here you go......compliments of Ole Larry Pullen from Delta.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Larry Pullen

 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 5):
from Delta

Fabulous photo!

Oh, yeah a line-up of 880's could sure put a cloud over the field in short order!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
cubastar
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 4):
You could actually stand out on the ramp here at ATL and see a cloud of black smoke billowing out in the area behind the departing jets and also hanging over the aircraft just sitting and idiling, waiting for take-off clearance.

Were you around when the early Delta 8's (old color scheme before the widget) with the non fan JT-3's took off with water injection? Just one takeoff could leave you coughing for about 5 minutes. LOL
 
MDorBust
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 6:37 am


God Bless airpower.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
KELPkid
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
God Bless airpower.

Obviously not the -H model B-52's...  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
n710ps
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 7:30 am

I love it. You can still hear the sound of glory from a Lear 20 series or a G2 in the right place and the G2 compareatively still can be traced by exhaust. When I was flying the 25D's in Air Ambulance I used to get such a grin on my face on take off knwing that we were making people look up. Occasionally you can still still see the MD-80's make a little rooster tail of smoke on there way out. I was based in SRQ with the Lears and I used to love the early morning hours in the winter when it was really cool (by Florida standard) and the 0630 MD-88 from Delta would roar out and all of the car alarms would start going off in the FBO parking lot. That always made me smile.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 8:49 am

On a semi-related subject, are there any plans afoot to change the 8 engines on a B-52 to 4 more efficient ones...?
What the...?
 
jetfan
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 9:06 am

Yes, it's pollution, but there is nothing more exciting than seeing, hearing and feeling the takeoff of a good old 727. This is an awesome, beautiful plane.

There aren't so many around nowadays, so pollution should be a minor issue. There are so much more modern jets around. It's like a vintage car, it's not clean and uses a lot of gas, but still good to have a chance to see them.

The 727 is one of the most exciting and beautiful flying machines ever built, so enjoy it! There isn't much time left. Even the freight operators are phasing them out, because they are simply to expensive.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 2):
You'd really freak if you lived when all the water injected turbojets were the order of the day in use on the early 707 and DC8s.

Like this one:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charlie Atterbury

 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
God Bless airpower

Awesome! Now that looks like an old time morning push----same engines-----different aircraft!

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 7):
Were you around when the early Delta 8's

Oh yeah!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 10):
Occasionally you can still still see the MD-80's make a little rooster tail of smoke on there way out.

Come to TSA and see some of the FAT MD-82s departing ... they also give off a pretty decent cloud of black smoke. MHs 744s pulling out of TPE sometimes also leave dark trails behind them.
 
graphic
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 12:15 pm

Kind of off topic but has anybody here seen the movie Easy Rider? The part in the beginning under the final approach to LAX is sweet for any lover of early jet-age commercial aviation.  Wink
Demand Media fails at life
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 12:15 pm

The "polution" you can see is likely nothing more than pure straight carbon.
 
iwok
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Jetfan (Reply 12):
Yes, it's pollution, but there is nothing more exciting than seeing, hearing and feeling the takeoff of a good old 727. This is an awesome, beautiful plane.



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 17):
The "polution" you can see is likely nothing more than pure straight carbon.

While we'll probably get flamed for saying so, those old engines might indeed have been less polluting that todays engines. The reason being that the soot is actually unburned carbon and hence with a S T R E T C H one could claim carbon sequestration  bigthumbsup 

I wonder what the inventor of the global warming myth would have to say about that  flamed 

iwok
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 8:19 pm

Sorry to deviate a little bit from the topic, but I think aviation doesn't pollute as much as certain other fields of activity. Air travel is mostly mass transport and if you look at the amount of pollution generated per passenger or per ton of cargo per kilometer, you would find that an aircraft like the 747 is actually more fuel efficient than a Ford Fiesta.

The biggest polluters are motorists who don't carpool, not airplanes - There I have said it  Wink
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 18):
I wonder what the inventor of the global warming myth would have to say about that

He would probably wonder if your little smiley was flaming in a carbon neutral way.
Jets are for kids
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
It may be politically correct but I miss those old oil burners



Or even politically INcorrect ? Big grin

Great pictures guys.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
Bobski
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
It was a British Air Force VC-10 blasting out of YYC. What a noisy, spewing pig. Very sweet.

When I stayed on a camp at Brize Norton a few years ago I used to make sure I was awake early to see the reaction of the other cadets when the early morning Vic took off. Usually it consisted of being shaken awake by the noise, followed by lots of cursing mixed with me laughing at them. I was also told by one of the crew chiefs that its so loud that every time they have to divert to a commercial airport the RAF gets fined for noise pollution.

Was a great camp. Got to look around the VC-10, the AN-124 (courtesy of some Ukrainians), the C-17 (which had been in service for less than a year at the time) and then do a refuelling flight in a Tristar. Best camp I ever went on.
Who is Benjamin Breeg?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 21):

Darned spellcheck...it should be able to read my mind to see if I'm using the correct word, and not just the wrong word spelled incorrectly. I gotta get a new psychic hotline...
What the...?
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Thu May 17, 2007 11:43 pm

I still remember those old smokey jets,especially the early turbjet powered DC-8s and 707s. Even the DC-9s and 727s could leave a respectable trail. I remember being stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver back in 1975-76 and watching the Denver Ports of Call Convair 990 leave a smokey trail that would be visible long after the plane was gone. One time the plane did a circuit of the area and on the horizon all around you'd see the 990s smokey signature. Crazy stuff.

The A-7Ds I worked on while in the USAF would also leave a smoky trail, but not quite as bad as that 990 did.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
GBOAB
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:13 am

Here is a smoky 727 coming into land at LHR, which I took in the early 80's


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Kirby



Ian
Concorde's gone but not forgotten
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 18):
While we'll probably get flamed for saying so, those old engines might indeed have been less polluting that todays engines. The reason being that the soot is actually unburned carbon and hence with a S T R E T C H one could claim carbon sequestration

combustion can be very complex, but I know that under some conditions you can just strip the hydrogen off of the hydrocarbon fuel, leaving pure carbon

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 20):


He would probably wonder if your little smiley was flaming in a carbon neutral way.

If its producting soot, its not producting CO2 that help?

[Edited 2007-05-17 18:33:21]
 
jcf5002
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:38 am

I come from the age of fuel-efficient and clean aircraft engines, but I've been able to see a few smoky birds. Airborne Express brings (or used to) an old DC-8 with the slim turbojet engines in the morning to BWI. On a very still one, you could see it coming inbound to the airport as it drew a thin black line across the sky, 10+ miles out. Once it touched down, it would shake the entire airpot and spew black soot from all 4 engines as the pilots rolled out on reverse thrust. Boy was that fun to watch! Equally, Northrop-Grumman has a couple BAC-111s they use as test beds. Smoky as hell and would give ANY modern fighter-jet a run for its money in the noise department!

I'm only 20 (21 in 64 days!), but I'm gonna miss them when they're gone...

-Jeff
Its always a sunny day above the clouds || CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI
 
Aircellist
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
God Bless airpower.

Seeing those B-52 smoking like that... well, no use for stealth technology in that time; even if the plane did not show on your radar, it would always be visible, literally.

I remember when 707s and DC-8s landed in YUL, when those would still be used for short-or medium-haul. My grandma has been living, since 1978, almost under the approach path for 24L, a few miles from the airport (on Christophe-Colomb, in Villeray, for those who know the area).

My most shaking take-off ever, felt from the ground (alas!!...) is still Concorde's leaving from 09R, as witnessed from LHR, 4th terminal; it lifted up just there... Aaaah!
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:48 am

Well, let's imagine today's heavy airplane traffic with such noise and smoke. (cough). There's more to environmental impact than just CO2 itself...

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 26):
If its producting soot, its not producting CO2 that help?

Right, but soot is toxic to breathe unlike CO2, and soot will eventually decompose into CO2, often by transitional compounds that can have a much more powerful greenhouse effect than CO2 itself, so better to have the best combustion and turn the fuel immediately into CO2.
When I doubt... go running!
 
TheRonald
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 11):
On a semi-related subject, are there any plans afoot to change the 8 engines on a B-52 to 4 more efficient ones...?

Yea...they're called the B-1 & B-2
I already have the quilty concious, may as well have the money, too.
 
azstagecoach
Topic Author
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 am

thanks everyone for the great photos. I have learned much and the 727 doesn't seem that bad anymore.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 19):
aviation doesn't pollute as much as certain other fields of activity

I see your point but I don't know if this is true in terms of relative fuel efficiency or emissions-- would that ford festiva (cooper mini) (couldn't we use a car example that isn't a total POSSmile) burn fuel cleaner and get more mileage, relative to the mileage per passenger per gallon/liter of Jet A? And the second half to my question was is there any restriction by states or feds to limit what comes out the back, "pure carbon" or otherwise?

Quoting Iwok (Reply 18):
less polluting that todays engines. The reason being that the soot is actually unburned carbon

yes it may not produce as much CO2 but we tend to forget in the current global warming craze that good old soot is still very, very bad to breathe and has the "talent" to give people black lung-type diseases without ever having to work in a coal mine  Smile
 
Jerald01
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 3:16 am

You want LOUD? LOUD is when a B-52 flies at approach speed over your house (but UNDER and overcast sky) at 1200 feet AGL. THAT's loud!

Oh, how about when you are driving your buddy's car along an airbase's perimeter road in a dense fog and a B-52 looms out of said fog very, VERY low on short final and passes over your car... uh, AROUND your car (fuselage in front, inboard engines behind, wing overhead). Now THAT was LOUD! And CLOSE, too!

I sure wasn't worried about pollution from the engines on that baby 'cause there was ANOTHER form of pollution on the seat of my friend's car! I had a hard time explaining that dark spot to him....
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 3:34 am

The JT8D-200 series on the MD-80s is a MUCH cleaner burning engine than the old original JT8D's from 727 and DC-9. I guess smoking engines never really impressed me, especially when those old smokers had to fight real hard just to get off the ground. Watching a smokeless (though still loud) DC-10 or 777 rocket off has always been far more impressive to me.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 11):
On a semi-related subject, are there any plans afoot to change the 8 engines on a B-52 to 4 more efficient ones...?

There was a study on setting them up with 4 RB211's of 757 vintage, but it was rejected, saying the fuel savings would not pay for the cost of the retrofit. My question was why RB211's and not PW2043's? The 2043 burns less fuel, is made in the US (which always helps in getting money from the US gov't) and is already in service with the airforce on the C-17. USAF plans to keep B-52H in service until 2040, so I think it's entirely reasonable to fit it with 4 PW2040 series high bypass turbofans for its final 3 decades in service.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 4:11 am

If you're seeing soot, it also indicates two other things:
- fine particulates, that are a health hazard not due to their chemical properties as much as their lodging in lungs.
- unburned or partially burned hydrocarbons, which are a regulated pollutant.
 
LH459
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Jcf5002 (Reply 27):
Airborne Express brings (or used to) an old DC-8 with the slim turbojet engines in the morning to BWI

Minor correction: those slim engines are actually early turbofans. I don't believe there are still any turbojet powered 8s flying.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
azstagecoach
Topic Author
Posts: 137
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 34):
If you're seeing soot, it also indicates two other things:
- fine particulates, that are a health hazard not due to their chemical properties as much as their lodging in lungs.
- unburned or partially burned hydrocarbons, which are a regulated pollutant.

which pollutants are regulated then? does the FAA regulate fine particulate matter? Is this done by EPA? Is it part of the Clean Air Act?
 
azstagecoach
Topic Author
Posts: 137
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 5:18 am

"And jet travel, at an average of more than half a pound of carbon dioxide per person per mile, is the height of carbon extravagance because the miles add up so quickly. A round-trip to visit my brother in Los Angeles? Some 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide. The East Coast? Almost 3,000 pounds. A rendezvous in Paris, at 5,600 pounds of climate-sizzling carbon dioxide, would by itself account for as much carbon emissions as the average human is responsible for in eight months. Paging through my frequent-flier statements suddenly became a climatically humbling experience."

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200609/carbon2.asp

And I apologize if the source seems too political, but this is where I found the information.
 
brilondon
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 5:38 am

I could not are how much those old planes leave a trail behind them, but damn it I loved the feeling of a 727 spooling up to to take off thrust and feeling the ground shake and hearing the popping of the engine as it goes far down the runway and lifts off to the heavens. The smells and the feeling of the aircraft is what watching planes use to be about for me when i was a bit younger.  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
planespotting
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 6:05 am

Ya'll want loud smoke-spewing airplanes?

My mom grew up in a house about 4 miles from Offut Air Force Base (former HQ of SAC) in the mid 50s to early 60s...my grandpa told me stories about entire squadrons of B-47 bombers taking off for the Pacific, all of them climbing out full power at 4,000 agl over his house...

I imagine window-repairmen in Omaha had a booming business during the cold-war eh?
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 33):
There was a study on setting them up with 4 RB211's of 757 vintage, but it was rejected, saying the fuel savings would not pay for the cost of the retrofit.

According to http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2002/b52.pdf, there have been four such studies. The first three recommended against re-engining the BUFF, but the report in this link suggested prompt re-engining with an accelerated schedule.

The cost savings of the fuel is only a component of the total cost savings provided by the re-engining program. This latest study points out some notable changes compared to the prior three. First, the cost of fuel in the prior three studies was incorrectly computed because it did not account for the cost of aerial refueling, which is closer to $20/gallon than $2/gallon. Second, the depot cost of the BUFF's engines has skyrocketed and the typical first-time-off-wing maintenance average would outlast the airframe, meaning that the only off-wing servicing would be for unanticipated failures. Third, the operational capabilties of the airplane would be considerably enhanced, including the need for less in-flight refueling and increased loiter time.

I've seen many of the re-engined KC-135's at Wright-Patt. They look so good, and the plane is soooo stinkin' quiet.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 8:33 am

The 727 will probably always be my favourite commercial jet. It's absolutely gorgeous from every angle and configuration...not a line out of place. It was a hoot to ride in, especially lightly loaded. I swear those guys up front used to dodge AAA for a living...it always felt like a vertical rocket blast. At cruise, smooth as glass and nice and quiet with the JT-8's out of sight, and mind out back. When they were feeling cheeky, they could drop that thing in like super cub on tundra tires. Watching all that hardware cycle in and out of the wing was a real treat too.

The noise of those things taking off from Inuvik, NWT, (YEV), when it was -50c was earth shattering from miles away. Up close, it could change your perception of reality like a Dali painting.
What the...?
 
b52murph
Posts: 223
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RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 32):
You want LOUD? LOUD is when a B-52 flies at approach speed over your house (but UNDER and overcast sky) at 1200 feet AGL. THAT's loud!

   The H-model BUFFs aren't even close--LOUD is:

a) A 2-ship of B-1B Bones taking off during a base exercise just as the sun is rising in full AB; one after the other. Beautiful sight too.

b) A 2-ship of Turkish Air Force F-4Es launching in close interval and then buzzing the base...just because they CAN!

Also ran...the distinctive sound of the -22Bs on the full-bodied TriStars. Not a roar, but a giant fan sound, unrepeated by others. Not bad in the soot dept. though...

As much as I like the '72, it doesn't lift a finger in the noise department to the Bone and in both soot and noise to the Rhino.

[Edited 2007-05-18 04:14:40]

[Edited 2007-05-18 04:16:13]
 
cio666
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:15 am

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 11:27 am

While I love the older jetliners, I don't miss those smokey trails at all. In addition to the health and pollution hazards pointed out by several others, there was also an aviation hazard related to black smokey trails, namely limited visibility. Some older pilots I know have told me stories from back in the old days of having to make instrument approaches into the Bay Area and LA on otherwise beautiful VFR days due to the soot and smog in the air around the airports. To be fair, car smog probably contributed to this too, but I really don't miss those black smokey trails.
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 26):
combustion can be very complex, but I know that under some conditions you can just strip the hydrogen off of the hydrocarbon fuel, leaving pure carbon

Correct you are. The process is called pyrolysis and of course there are other processes as well. If I did beleive the "political" interpretation of global warming, I'd make a push to switch over to partial oxidation of oil or ethanol along with carbon storage in the form of graphite fibers to make planes, roads, cars and buildings with.

Carbon is the future.

Quoting Azstagecoach (Reply 31):
yes it may not produce as much CO2 but we tend to forget in the current global warming craze that good old soot is still very, very bad to breathe and has the "talent" to give people black lung-type diseases without ever having to work in a coal mine

Not if you store the "soot" somewhere in a stable form such as a plane for example. I did say my comment was a S T R E T C H.  bigthumbsup 

iwok
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 2:12 pm

We see 5-6 727's a night here at YVR plus a DC9 and I love them, the CV580's also leave nice smoke trails (we have 5-6 visit / based here at here at the moment too!!!) - but although no where near the same cateogry, even the classic 737's and 763's leave a small smoke trail - after seeing this thread I noticed it just today on an AS 734 and MP 763.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
User avatar
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3697
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
God Bless airpower.

What does God love more, the air pollution or the nuclear payload?  sarcastic 

Not to get overly political in civ av, but c'mon...

I'll admit that I see the appeal in the old, smoky, loud birds, but their time has past. The less crap a plane puts into the air, the better.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 7:25 pm

It's inevitable but the retro smoke belching, ear numbing, over the top qualities of the old jets just appeals our sense of nostalgia. It lets us go back to the good old days when everything didn't have to be vetted by a political correctness/environmental impact committee...it was so darned...unrefined.
What the...?
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Terrible Pollution From A 727

Fri May 18, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting Iwok (Reply 18):
I wonder what the inventor of the global warming myth would have to say about that

Fear the wrath of the Church of Gaia!

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