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luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 49):
Looks like Southwest move into the PIT market has created another Baltimore for US. You can expect Southwest to now expand offerings from PIT, and FL will likely follow suit.

Bring them on!! We have plenty of gate space!
 
787EWR
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 49):
Looks like Southwest move into the PIT market has created another Baltimore for US. You can expect Southwest to now expand offerings from PIT, and FL will likely follow suit.

I would partially agree. I think US began to realize that they could not match cost structures with WN and perhaps some of the regionals. I don't know that anyone can.

The item that I disagree with is WN's expansion at PIT. I only question this based upon the effort that they seem to be putting into building PHL as a mini-hub, once again, in the face of US. I recognize the value of PHL, being that it is at a cargo port on the coast with a large population center. PIT has it's own industries, obviously, but I would question whether it has a similar potential.

That being said, almost every major US airline, at least 13 of them, are flying into Pittsburgh. Per an earlier entry in this thread, O&D is doing very well. Perhaps one of these other airlines will step in and add some flights.

Also, who is Myrtle Beach Direct(Listed on the Pittsburgh Airport link)?
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 51):
I would partially agree. I think US began to realize that they could not match cost structures with WN and perhaps some of the regionals. I don't know that anyone can.

The item that I disagree with is WN's expansion at PIT. I only question this based upon the effort that they seem to be putting into building PHL as a mini-hub, once again, in the face of US. I recognize the value of PHL, being that it is at a cargo port on the coast with a large population center. PIT has it's own industries, obviously, but I would question whether it has a similar potential.

That being said, almost every major US airline, at least 13 of them, are flying into Pittsburgh. Per an earlier entry in this thread, O&D is doing very well. Perhaps one of these other airlines will step in and add some flights.

Also, who is Myrtle Beach Direct(Listed on the Pittsburgh Airport link)?

Myrtle Beach Direct just started service March 7th with 2 weekly departures to Myrtle Beach from gate D79.

As far as WN, I don't see them starting a hub at PIT like what they have at PHL or BWI, but rather have 30- 50 flights per day like I stated earlier. I don't think we will have one dominating carrier at PIT in the next 5- 10 years. We will have 2- 4 airlines with equal service. Thats my opinion.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2273
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 7):
My suspicion is that domestic traffic is weaker than the official announcements have stated.

Ding, Ding, Ding...we have a winner! I think domestic demand across the board is extremely weak this year, and the forecast ain't much better...
 
silentbob
Posts: 1642
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 51):
I would partially agree. I think US began to realize that they could not match cost structures with WN and perhaps some of the regionals. I don't know that anyone can.

We'll see what happens when the WN hedges expire. Most of the routes that were pulled were flown by Piedmont or PSA, both of whom are having staffing problems right now. The mainline issue is just a matter of putting aircraft on better yielding routes. That's just a good business decision.
 
flyusairways
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:36 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 17):
One has to wonder why US is bothering to build the Flight Ops center here!

It does make the mind wonder...

What a shame! In the name of business or not, it's simply a shame to see such a great facility go so under-served. One will be able to see tumbleweed blowing through the US gates pretty soon. I just hope that my flights to LNS in mid-July won't be canceled, seeing that service is set to end as it is at the beginning of August.

Is is possible that, say, AS or F9 will ever start service to PIT, or will existing carrier simply beef up service?
 
787EWR
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Flyusairways (Reply 55):
Is is possible that, say, AS or F9 will ever start service to PIT, or will existing carrier simply beef up service?

I have to believe that Pittburgh still has value as a hub. It may never get back to the level that is was in the 90's, but with large facilities, maintenance, etc, some airline at some point in the future will pick it up.
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 17):
One has to wonder why US is bothering to build the Flight Ops center here!

I was wondering the same thing. Me and my FA friend were talking, wouldn't you think that the ACAA would've made some measures that US had to abbide by for us to build the new OCC.. such as keeping a certain amount of flights into PIT??

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 56):
I have to believe that Pittburgh still has value as a hub. It may never get back to the level that is was in the 90's, but with large facilities, maintenance, etc, some airline at some point in the future will pick it up.

It will never see the numbers we once had in the 90's. We could reach 15 or so million pax a year but the 20 mark will be a far fetched idea.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 45):
Sounds like its a good time for CO to add some RJ service to CLE from PIT.

Terrible idea. RJ's are FAR too inefficient on such short routes like that. Not to mention an RJ's speed advantage is basically null and void on a route where they can't scrape 10,000 feet due to being so short.

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 47):

I wouldn't be suprised if that would happen, especially if CO builds up CLE more.

I'd be horrifically surprised. The route is, however, getting upgraded to Dash 8's from the Beeches... still run by Commutair. CO is relatively short on RJ lift right now after the debacle in which they cut ExpressJet's flying to bring in Chautauqua with some CRJ/ERJ mix. They're also trying to get out of the business of running RJ's on tiny little hops where they are the most inefficient (see the CMH route, and the acquisition of Q400's for EWR as examples). PIT will not become an RJ route to CLE. However if CO has a hankering to add capacity in PIT, getting rid of the remaining 145XR's to IAH and replacing them with 737's would be a start, as would a possible mainliner sneaking in with the EWR mix of RJ's.

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 56):

I have to believe that Pittburgh still has value as a hub. It may never get back to the level that is was in the 90's, but with large facilities, maintenance, etc, some airline at some point in the future will pick it up.

If NW can maintain a focus city in IND, and Midwest can run a small hub in MCI and their bigger hub in MKE (all 3 of which are smaller than Pittsburgh) you're damn right Pittsburgh still has value as at least a focus city for US or someone else down the road.

Does AS have any spare lift to provide 1x SEA or something? The SEA market seems rather robust from Pittsburgh despite not being served now.
 
pgh234
Posts: 790
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RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 58):
as would a possible mainliner sneaking in with the EWR mix of RJ's.

A 737 to EWR is coming this summer. No clue how long it will hang around though.
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 58):
If NW can maintain a focus city in IND, and Midwest can run a small hub in MCI and their bigger hub in MKE (all 3 of which are smaller than Pittsburgh) you're damn right Pittsburgh still has value as at least a focus city for US or someone else down the road.

Does AS have any spare lift to provide 1x SEA or something? The SEA market seems rather robust from Pittsburgh despite not being served now.

DTW is kinda close to PIT for NW to really beef up service here. I'd see Midwest adding more flights before NW.

AA could set something up here I think. We are far enough away from most hubs and focus cities to add flights. How many flights per day does AA/ Eagle currently have at PIT?
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 8):
Could we see Southwest add more flights to PIT in the future, its been awhile since they have made any additions there?



Quoting Luketenley (Reply 28):
They have plenty of destination they could serve from here if they wanted to expand. They just started out with the popular stops first.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on WN expanding PIT. They seem to want to focus all their growth at BWI, MDW, PHL, or LAS. They may add a few flights, but don't count on aggressive expansion. We here at BNA were given the impression by WN a few years back that we were high on their list of growth cities. We seem all but forgotten in the last few years.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 60):

DTW is kinda close to PIT for NW to really beef up service here. I'd see Midwest adding more flights before NW.

I didn't say NW nor Midwest would build one up here... I was merely saying that if those airlines can run focus cities in those aforementioned smaller markets... the PIT market is fine to still be a small hub/focus city, regardless of what US thinks. Although...
DTW-PIT = 174.4 nm
DTW-IND = 200.4 nm
We're only 26 nm closer to Detroit than Indy is... and IND wasn't too close for a focus city.

As for American, unless they want to face a big labor problem they'd have a hard time adding a focus city here... considering the reason we're sans mainline now was their attempt to get rid of having AA employees in Pittsburgh and replace them with Eagle employees.
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:51 am

What airline has the resources to start a small focus city in PIT?
 
lhpdx
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 7:58 am

Maybe PIT might have to settle for being an airport similiar to PDX....Might not be a focus airline for any airline......
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1142
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 62):
As for American, unless they want to face a big labor problem they'd have a hard time adding a focus city here... considering the reason we're sans mainline now was their attempt to get rid of having AA employees in Pittsburgh and replace them with Eagle employees.

The could setup a focus city quite easily, as long as it's all eagle... there not far off iirc from even being able to add back mainline without union concerns (upto 7x daily).... but there is the whole resource issue... ppl keep hoping for CLE to get there mainline back... it's been even longer...

Last I checked MQ had the following...
3x LGA ER3
1x MIA ERD
7x DFW CR7
4x ORD ER4
15x Daily
 
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SANFan
Posts: 5688
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RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting RSBJ (Reply 42):
Hopefully this will put PIT at the top of priorities over growing IAD, DEN, and SFO.

Unfortunately, RSBJ, SFO would be, IMHO, at the very tip-top of that WN priority list for at least the rest of this year and the beginning of next. (That is not to say PIT or any other stations might or might not see any new flights but I believe with DEN cooling off a bit and IAD never really targeted for "fast-track" treatment by WN, SFO is it for right now.) I'm curious to see if any new cities are expected to be added in 2008 by WN; personally I hope not. This year has seen a nice diversity of new flights to different cities. Which brings me to this post:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 61):
I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on WN expanding PIT. They seem to want to focus all their growth at BWI, MDW, PHL, or LAS.

I disagree with on this one Sky'; your statement may have been applicable last year but not in 2007. But that should be discussed in more detail on another thread.

bb
 
cle757
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:28 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 58):
Terrible idea. RJ's are FAR too inefficient on such short routes like that. Not to mention an RJ's speed advantage is basically null and void on a route where they can't scrape 10,000 feet due to being so short

We fly RJ's to DAY,CMH,DTW sometimes ERI why not PIT?....PIT could send us passengers going alot of places, LAX,SFO,LGW,CDG,SEA,DTW,ORD,TOL,IND and on and on.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 67):

We fly RJ's to DAY,CMH,DTW sometimes ERI why not PIT?..

ERI hasn't had an RJ for quite some time. That experiment ended about when the SBN jet ended. CMH, DAY, and DTW all have Commutair mixing in to replace some of those jets recently. That's why the Dash 8's were brought on board... to replace the insanely inefficient short RJ hops.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting LHPDX (Reply 64):
Maybe PIT might have to settle for being an airport similiar to PDX....Might not be a focus airline for any airline......

Agreed. Some people just have to accept the fact that some airline cutbacks / hub closures will never get replaced. Too bad for PIT, great facilities. A few carriers will pick up some of the slack, but it'll never get back to its peak levels.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2809
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting Kubus (Thread starter):
LGA (which is total crap, as they have 95% or more loads each way)

I've said it before, and I guess I need to say it again.....

Full does not equal profitable.

Obviously US has lost pricing power to B6 in the PIT-NYC market. The flights may be full, but the resources (aircraft, crews, etc.) don't make a good return on investment because US is matching B6 just to fill seats. The resources can be more profitable in other markets, hence the reductions.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 61):
I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on WN expanding PIT. They seem to want to focus all their growth at BWI, MDW, PHL, or LAS. They may add a few flights, but don't count on aggressive expansion. We here at BNA were given the impression by WN a few years back that we were high on their list of growth cities. We seem all but forgotten in the last few years.

Yeah, I wouldn't set up all night waiting on WN to do anything. Just like SkyyMaster said about us here in Nashville. WN promised big, but soon appeared to be full of crap after dropping some of their flights from here and it remains that way to this day.
 
USAirways304
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:22 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 10:38 am

Let's get a few things straight. The PIT economy has suffered a slight decline over the last decade. Nothing compared to other cities across the nation. The real decline obviously has occured with air service, particularly with US Airways. Back in the mid- to late 90's, US Airways held a huge monopoly at PIT. Fares were ridiculous. Small business owners like myself found ourselves driving to Columbus, Ohio to fly. Sure, we wanted to support our local city, but we just couldn't afford it. The general public and business people who flew during these times remember the fares, they remember the horrible US Airways customer service policies. Now that things have changed at PIT, such as with WN arriving, these same past fliers would rather choose a different carrier (not to mention the huge fare differences and upgraded customer service options we now have with these new carriers). Because of the ridiculous fares US Airways imposed on our travelers, people quit flying as much out of PIT- or they simply drove to their destination. The airport authority was late in attempting to solve the problem. US Airways ultimately dismantled the PIT hub. Now, several years later, US Airways is once again pulling more flights out of PIT. They blame "low market" in PIT, while at the same time, other carriers are increasing service. Maybe US Airways is finally recognizing a problem in Pittsburgh. A problem they created.
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting USAirways304 (Reply 72):
Let's get a few things straight. The PIT economy has suffered a slight decline over the last decade. Nothing compared to other cities across the nation. The real decline obviously has occured with air service, particularly with US Airways. Back in the mid- to late 90's, US Airways held a huge monopoly at PIT. Fares were ridiculous. Small business owners like myself found ourselves driving to Columbus, Ohio to fly. Sure, we wanted to support our local city, but we just couldn't afford it. The general public and business people who flew during these times remember the fares, they remember the horrible US Airways customer service policies. Now that things have changed at PIT, such as with WN arriving, these same past fliers would rather choose a different carrier (not to mention the huge fare differences and upgraded customer service options we now have with these new carriers). Because of the ridiculous fares US Airways imposed on our travelers, people quit flying as much out of PIT- or they simply drove to their destination. The airport authority was late in attempting to solve the problem. US Airways ultimately dismantled the PIT hub. Now, several years later, US Airways is once again pulling more flights out of PIT. They blame "low market" in PIT, while at the same time, other carriers are increasing service. Maybe US Airways is finally recognizing a problem in Pittsburgh. A problem they created.

Let them leave. Just as long as another carrier(s) come in to take over lost flights.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting USAirways304 (Reply 72):
Let's get a few things straight. The PIT economy has suffered a slight decline over the last decade. Nothing compared to other cities across the nation.

I'm not sure in which context you are refering to. Fact is, the Pittsburgh economy has been horrible, and is not getting better. It is the worst economy of any metro area in the country, excluding New Orleans. It is the only metro area losing population, except for New Orleans (due to hurricane Katrina). Since 2000, the Pittsburgh area has lost 60,000 people! That's not a typo!

The population declines 10,000 a year. That is a hemorrage.

You can only blame the decline of the steel industry for so long. That is ancient history. Why are people still leaving?
High taxes, unfavorable business climate, horrible expressways, with missing ramps, only two lanes each way, etc....

It won't change until people start voting differently.

As far as PIT, the decline WILL continue as long as the region losses 10,000 people every year.

Quoting USAirways304 (Reply 72):
Because of the ridiculous fares US Airways imposed on our travelers, people quit flying as much out of PIT- or they simply drove to their destination. The airport authority was late in attempting to solve the problem.

I'm not sure what the ACAA could have done. The industry is deregulated, the ACAA has no power to regulate local fares. Gates are available, anyone could have come in if they wanted. When AirTran added service 5 years ago, the locals didn't support the service. The ACAA lowered fees as much as possible, considering the terminal's debt.

What the ACAA did wrong was not focus on developing aviation services not dependant on Pittsburgh's pathetic economy, such as air cargo distribution. PIT's geographic location between the northeast and midwest should have been levereged for air cargo operations.

As far as these cuts, don't blame US Airways or the ACAA. Blame the local politicians whom have created a regional disaster over the last 40 years, one which cannot support a 12,000 acre airport.

[Edited 2007-05-18 05:11:26]
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 74):
I'm not sure in which context you are refering to. Fact is, the Pittsburgh economy has been horrible, and is not getting better. It is the worst economy of any metro area in the country, excluding New Orleans. It is the only metro area losing population, except for New Orleans (due to hurricane Katrina). Since 2000, the Pittsburgh area has lost 60,000 people! That's not a typo!

The population declines 10,000 a year. That is a hemorrage.

You can only blame the decline of the steel industry for so long. That is ancient history. Why are people still leaving?
High taxes, unfavorable business climate, horrible expressways, with missing ramps, only two lanes each way, etc....

It won't change until people start voting differently.

As far as PIT, the decline WILL continue as long as the region losses 10,000 people every year.

We have such a beautiful city. I can't believe how many people we lose per year.

Our highway system does suck though. Not much we can do about it with the tunnels and all the hills.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 74):
I'm not sure what the ACAA could have done. The industry is deregulated, the ACAA has no power to regulate local fares. Gates are available, anyone could have come in if they wanted. When AirTran added service 5 years ago, the locals didn't support the service. The ACAA lowered fees as much as possible, considering the terminal's debt.

What the ACAA did wrong was not focus on developing aviation services not dependant on Pittsburgh's pathetic econony, such as air cargo distribution. PIT's geographic location between the northeast and midwest should have been levereged for air cargo operations.

Moon Township is to blame for most of this. They turned down a deal that would've brought 13 747s to the airport everyday for cargo services. This city is full of idiots who make stupid decisions.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 74):
Fact is, the Pittsburgh economy has been horrible, and is not getting better. It is the worst economy of any metro area in the country, excluding New Orleans. It is the only metro area losing population, except for New Orleans (due to hurricane Katrina). Since 2000, the Pittsburgh area has lost 60,000 people! That's not a typo!

The loss of population has nothing to do with the economy. The loss of population is because we also have some of the oldest population in the nation, therefore the highest death rate. The economy has been rebounding from the collapse of decades ago quite nicely. Things take time, it's not as if we're a boom city yet, but Pittsburgh is by no means as bad as you made it out to be. And Pittsburgh is NOT the only metro losing population (sans MSY), it's just the only Top-50 metro losing population. As I said, that is highly contributed to by the astoundingly high death rate as the 80-somethings die off, and the lack of foreign immigration. Pittsburgh also has the lowest population of foreign-born citizens of any Top-50 metro. Having old people has nothing to do with having a bad economy, and if you read the PG regularly you would have seen that PIT's population has actually already rebounded, and there will be growth shown over the next 5 year period. When places like Fayette County are even showing significant economic growth, Pittsburgh's MSA as a whole is doing quite fine economically.
 
stl1326
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 76):
The loss of population has nothing to do with the economy. The loss of population is because we also have some of the oldest population in the nation, therefore the highest death rate.

That goes to show that your city isn't attracting young professional workers.....
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 77):

That goes to show that your city isn't attracting young professional workers.....

Even though it is... that can't cover for the fact that we still have a HUGE proportion of 65+, and 80+. The only way that 65+ and 80+ will change is as they sadly die off. God forbid someone who spent large amounts of time in college studying demographic geography tries to explain something to people though.

And just in case you don't believe me, here's some black and white text, reiterating what I just said: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07105/778164-85.stm

[Edited 2007-05-18 07:34:39]
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Luketenley (Reply 73):
Let them leave. Just as long as another carrier(s) come in to take over lost flights.

I don't think you quite grasp the loss in flights that Pittsburgh will have if US were to leave. It may be able to get FL of F9 to make it into a focus city, but a ton of traffic will be lost. Traffic to places like PVD, IND, etc. will be hard to replace given the rumored unhappiness WN has with PIT.

It really is a shame whats going on with PIT and US though. It could be politics as stations after route network mergers, fairly or unfairly, receive the bastard child status. St. Louis and American is a perfect example. Carty has big plans (keep hub similar to what it was), Arpey wants to say buh-bye.

Several people I know are 100% convinced that the reason St. Louis hasn't been expanded in favor of ORD is politics. STL has some of the highest load factors of any AA station, yet its neglected over fears of losing even the smallest amounts of money. If a route has even fringey performance, its canned (i.e. Phoenix) St. Louis is nothing more than loss leader coverage for other routes from DFW/ORD. Not even the most mediocre of flight performance is tolerated. Routes that are on the fence will get slashed. This is what we're seeing in PIT.

The parallels between the two situations are unbelievable.....
 
stl1326
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 78):
Even though it is... that can't cover for the fact that we still have a HUGE proportion of 65+, and 80+. The only way that 65+ and 80+ will change is as they sadly die off.

The point I'm trying to make here is if you have this large amount of "retired" residents, other young professionals should be taking over the jobs they have left behind which should balance the age difference. But obviously the city has lost a lot of jobs and the amount of jobs now proportional to what was there in the past contributes to the reason why there is a more retirees than young adults. That's what I got out of your post above and to me if that is the case the economy can't be doing that well.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1492
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 79):
The parallels between the two situations are unbelievable.....



Very good point and I too can see the similarities.
 
PITSpeedbird
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:25 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 11:52 pm

Friends,

People keep making similarities between the St Louis area and Pittsburgh.

Pittsburgh is consistently rated among the most livable cities in the country.

Any word on AS coming here? To fill the SEA void left by US?


thanks

PITSpeedbird
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Fri May 18, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 79):
I don't think you quite grasp the loss in flights that Pittsburgh will have if US were to leave. It may be able to get FL of F9 to make it into a focus city, but a ton of traffic will be lost. Traffic to places like PVD, IND, etc. will be hard to replace given the rumored unhappiness WN has with PIT.

I didn't know WN was unhappy with PIT. What are the reasons?
 
kubus
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 70):
Quoting Kubus (Thread starter):
LGA (which is total crap, as they have 95% or more loads each way)


I've said it before, and I guess I need to say it again.....

Full does not equal profitable.

Obviously US has lost pricing power to B6 in the PIT-NYC market. The flights may be full, but the resources (aircraft, crews, etc.) don't make a good return on investment because US is matching B6 just to fill seats. The resources can be more profitable in other markets, hence the reductions.

US has lost their mind twice on this route. LGA-PIT is 80% business travel if not more. JFK is less then 20% business, rest is connecting to international. US for longest time priced this round trip at about $800 for Economy, didn't matter if it was advance or 21 day, or Sat stay or same day return. Today with B6 coming in, that fare is $787 for Envoy and about $120 to $188 for economy for same day return. B6 is about $50 cheaper. B6 is not a real competition on this route. LGA has better connections to Manhattan then JFK and it just makes more sense to use it for business. US can raise the fare by $100 or even $200 and still get the same loads, but this time make some profit.
Anywho, the cuts are for weekend flights which do make sense.
I just noticed too that US upgraded the capacity on LGA-PIT flight at 6:10P being a 737-300 instead of A319. That's extra 10 seats, which will cover the usual 5-6 standby's for this flight.
 
787EWR
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Kubus (Reply 84):
Today with B6 coming in, that fare is $787 for Envoy and about $120 to $188 for economy for same day return. B6 is about $50 cheaper. B6 is not a real competition on this route. LGA has better connections to Manhattan then JFK and it just makes more sense to use it for business. US can raise the fare by $100 or even $200 and still get the same loads, but this time make some profit.
.

As a "New Yawker", I can tell you that getting out to Kennedy is not as painful as it used to be. From Midtown, you can catch the LIRR & the Airtrain to the airport and be to your selected terminal in about 45 minutes. You can reach LGA by cab in about 30 minutes, provided there is no traffic, but there is no direct rail link to the airport. It is also more cost effective as the rails are cheaper than cabs. The introduction of the rail links, I think, is one of the driving forces behind the success of Jetblue and the fact that Delta & American have started to refocus their efforts at JFK for both international and domestic services.. The same applies to Continental's growth and success at Newark, where there is also a direct rail link from the heart of Manhattan to the terminals.

I can also say as a NYer, with the improvement of technology, companies no longer have their central operations in NYC, Philly, Boston etc. Cities like Pittsburgh, Indy, St. Louis are perfect locations for data center operations or DR centers. If you want verification, just look at Charlotte and Raliegh Durham which used to be 9 to 5 towns and are now bursting at the seams.

All you need is an airline to get you there.  Wink
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 85):
Cities like Pittsburgh, Indy, St. Louis are perfect locations for data center operations or DR centers.

And with the cost of living in those cities, compared to NYC/Philly/Boston, companies are insane not to at least consider moving west of the Appalachians. For instance, I am able to take a ~20% paycut to move out of the ABE area to the PIT or IND area... and still live a better lifestyle because it's so much cheaper out here. Closer to NYC/PHL/BOS is even more expensive than ABE.
 
Ward86IND
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:13 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 86):
For instance, I am able to take a ~20% paycut to move out of the ABE area to the PIT or IND area... and still live a better lifestyle because it's so much cheaper out here.

True that, I have lived in the Pittsburgh area and currently live in Indy...it boggles the mind to think how much things cost out east! You don't even want to know how much our current 2,000 square-foot house cost...

About US cutting service to PIT, I guess their plan to keep Pittsburghers happy is painting that A319 in Steelers colors. But where will they fly it??...Philly???!

This is real bullshit. This July I am flying nonstop IND-SEA on NW, for CHEAP. NW treats us well, too bad US can't do the same for PIT. I hope someone comes in and does real well.

Ben
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting PITSpeedbird (Reply 82):
Friends,

People keep making similarities between the St Louis area and Pittsburgh.

Pittsburgh is consistently rated among the most livable cities in the country.

Any word on AS coming here? To fill the SEA void left by US?


thanks

PITSpeedbird

My whole point is how each city's hometown airline situation has been eerily similar to the others. I'm not sure how that has much to do with how livable the city is. If we were comparing metro populations, maybe your comment would be somewhere close to being on point.

The two situations actually are very, very comparable.
 
flyusairways
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:36 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 10:14 am

Don't know if it has been mentioned before, but it also appears that PIT-LAS is being downgraded from the usual 757s to A320s from this summer on.  Sad
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 30):
Maybe expressjet down the road if they aren't already out of business?

No threat of that anytime soon - why would you say "already"? Loads this weekend are actually very high. But, this is not the thread for that ... Sorry PIT, that sucks.  Sad
 
n710ps
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting Kubus (Reply 84):

It was upgraded because of uproar at LGA in station considering the 6 A.M. PIT from LGA was near impossible to get an open seat on. It was pretty much throwing LGA a bone. It is important to have those seats in forward and hind sight because the first two flights of the day as well as the last two of the night each way are like a crew shuttle for the formerly PIT based crews that are now LGA based. If you fly on one of those flights you will see more people in USAirways uniforms than civillian alot of times. I used to go visit one of my ex girlfriends in Washinton PA all the time so I would be a regular on those flights. The MCO through flight if you ask me should be upgraded from a 734 to at least a 321 and I might venture to say 757 (wishful thinking) and they could still keep planes full since they axed the morning mainliner.
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 1:12 pm

We have alot of tech jobs starting up. Our population is rebounding but it will take some time. We need a better freeway system, but it's so hard to do that with all the hills, tunnels, rivers, etc. Everytime they try and build a freeway, they make it a toll road and noone wants to use it. Pittsburgh is on the rebound. We have a beautiful city. Skyline is one of the best.
 
kubus
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 10:32 pm

N710PS
That and couple letters from my company. We had to cancel couple client meetings b/c of lack of seats. There used to be A321 on am flight, but that's when the fare was $800.
 
COEI2007
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:33 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sat May 19, 2007 11:47 pm

With US cutting yet more flights ex PIT, should PIT airport not be desperately trying to lure both a LCC, and an international airline to operate transaltantic flights? If a European airline was offered the right incentives, they'd launch!
 
luketenley
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:51 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sun May 20, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 94):
With US cutting yet more flights ex PIT, should PIT airport not be desperately trying to lure both a LCC, and an international airline to operate transaltantic flights? If a European airline was offered the right incentives, they'd launch!

I'm sure airlines would come in if the ACAA offered them the right numbers.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3244
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sun May 20, 2007 12:58 am

I think a lot of people seem to base their assumptions on PITs proper level of service based on what it used to have. Back i nthe US hub days there was a ton of serivce but the economics are changing. There was a time when money could be made on connecting passengers, but by and large thattimes seems to be ending. They're good for filling up the rest of the plane or gouging if going to small communities, but they don't pay the nearly as much per segment as a people on non-stops [ususaly] do.

You can make all the excuses you want, but compared to the rest of the US, the economy and population base in the PIT area sucks. The assumtions of what kind of serivce many mid-country seem to be scewed by local cheerleaders who insist on comparing their airport to hubs. Try comparing to similarly sized markets on the coast where connecting passengers aren't as feasible.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1142
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sun May 20, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 76):
The loss of population has nothing to do with the economy. The loss of population is because we also have some of the oldest population in the nation, therefore the highest death rate. The economy has been rebounding from the collapse of decades ago quite nicely.

If you have less ppl, less goods are consumed... supply and demand..... 10k a yeas is alot, especially when you already said it's the only top 50 loosing population....
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sun May 20, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 97):

If you have less ppl, less goods are consumed... supply and demand..... 10k a yeas is alot, especially when you already said it's the only top 50 loosing population....

Yes, because we all know that when these 85 year old retired coal miners/mill workers were still young and vibrant that it was of course them who were buying the tickets to FRA and LGW and not the business community. You seemed to have selectively-read half of the link I posted earlier, but only the half that was negative. Read the rest, then come back. But of course that's hard to do for some people here who've probably never been there, nor researched a thing about it, and would still expect to fly IFR into an incessant steel mill-related smog if they did ever come to PIT.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 96):
The assumtions of what kind of serivce many mid-country seem to be scewed by local cheerleaders who insist on comparing their airport to hubs. Try comparing to similarly sized markets on the coast where connecting passengers aren't as feasible.

Considering Pittsburgh is not on the coast and has completely different demographic characteristics than the coast, let's compare it to the Midwest cities of similar size. IND, CVG, CMH, CLE, and MKE. PIT is closer to most of those cities than to most of the coast. Nobody with sense ever said that we are equal PHL, BWI, or BOS. PS: Spell check is your friend. I didn't skew anything in my assumptions about service.
 
stl1326
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: US To Cut Flights From PIT

Sun May 20, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 98):
You seemed to have selectively-read half of the link I posted earlier

Not to start anything or be rude but the link you posted earlier doesn't say much to me. The MSA is only adding 126,000 people in the next 23 years. That's only adding something like 5,700 people a year that doesn't show a vibrant economy.....

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