YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 48):
Did everyone forget Icelandic? who has almost an entire fleet of B752 and B753.

Read reply 35, you'll see that I did not forget and i provided my thoughts on that!
When I doubt... go running!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 47):
which to SOME extent proves a little bit my original point which is.......

These two aircraft A300/310 are NOT direct competitors of the 757....seeing that a single carrier operates both...
i.e. why would you have two different planes to do the same Job???...or in other words the each of these planes are NOT designated to do the same job....thus are not true competitors

That AA ended up with A300s is a very long story that has been told often at a.net. The very very short version is that AA and Boeing were not in agreement with certain aspects of the development of the 767-300A and Airbus stepped in and made an amazing offer to AA concerning the A300-600R. AA shocked everyone and took Airbus up on its offer....do note that AA went on to purchase the 763ER in large numbers.

The A310-200, 757-200 and 767-200 were all designed to move 180-220 passengers on segments up to 3500 miles - thus they are competitors. So simple is it.

And sometimes airlines do operate competing types for a variety of reasons. Many airlines operate both the 737 and A32X, many operated the MD80 and 737 side by side, AF operates the A340 and 777. It happens.....and the fact that one airline operates two types in the same category certainly does not mean that the airliners do not compete in the marketplace.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 6:20 am

Please forgive me everyone for hijacking on this one note but Dutchjet brought up a good point that I always wondered about and was hoping I could ask real fast why....an airline who operates 2 different models in the same category, I.E. 73G vs A32x or 777 and 330/340s. Air France, Easy Jet, Emirates come to mind....why? And, is it efficient? And is this proof that fleet commonality is overrated?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 52):
Please forgive me everyone for hijacking on this one note but Dutchjet brought up a good point that I always wondered about and was hoping I could ask real fast why....an airline who operates 2 different models in the same category, I.E. 73G vs A32x or 777 and 330/340s. Air France, Easy Jet, Emirates come to mind....why? And, is it efficient? And is this proof that fleet commonality is overrated?

Think financial terms, delivery positions, leasing terms, used aircraft, the need to expand, corporate politics, and the like.....and airlines will sometimes do unexpected things.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

If you mean the 787-3, then you're correct, although LH is still a somewhat likely customer for it, especially for use on FRA-LHR.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
Only LOT has ordered the 787 so far!!!

What about DP, ZB, VS, BY, and FI?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
BMED
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 6:35 am

jet2 are starting to use them on low cost flights in europe now.
Living the jetset life! No better way to be
 
Notarzt
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Fri May 18, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
As mentoned above, several European airlines tried using larger A300s and A310s on intra-European routes....it did not work out very well for most of the airlines as the airlines realized that most high-demand segments need capacity AND frequency. Airlines like KLM, SAS, AF and Swissair quickly replaced most of their widebody intra-European services with smaller aircraft as soon as practical.

The main problem for Boeing and the 757 was the presence of the A310 which offered widebody comfort on medium-haul routes and a slightly larger capacity. Lufthansa, Swissair, Air France and KLM placed early orders for the A310 giving the 757 a knock-out for these airlines. Actually, Iberia was the sole European flag carrier that replaced its 727-200s by 757s, whereas British Airways had replaced its Tridents by 757s in the 1980's already.

By the way, Lufthansa, Swissair, Air France and KLM enjoyed the A310-200 medium-haul operations, actually the A310 services were operated some 12-17 years with each of these airlines. On the other hand, it is correct that certain European airlines suspended transcontinental widebody operations quite early (replaced by MD-80 or 737 aircraft, e.g. with Finnair or SAS.
 
efcar98
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 29):
It was similar in the UK, BA used to fly the 757 and 767 on the GLA/LHR route

I flew on an early build BA 757 in August of 1997 domestically from LHR-EDI and then returned on a B732 to LHR.

Having flown on UA and AA's 757s many many times across the country (IAD-LAX), I immediately noticed how the plastic in the cabin (overhead bins and sidewalls) had a yellow tint to them and showed its 10+ years on the UA birds. The plane looked faded and well used to say the least. Having done more research on the BA 757's since then, I realized that the plane I was on was most likely one of the first off the line with the less powerful early model RB-211 engines. BA later disposed of these models with a lower MTOW to DHL.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting EFCar98 (Reply 57):

I flew on an early build BA 757 in August of 1997 domestically from LHR-EDI and then returned on a B732 to LHR.

Having flown on UA and AA's 757s many many times across the country (IAD-LAX), I immediately noticed how the plastic in the cabin (overhead bins and sidewalls) had a yellow tint to them and showed its 10+ years on the UA birds. The plane looked faded and well used to say the least. Having done more research on the BA 757's since then, I realized that the plane I was on was most likely one of the first off the line with the less powerful early model RB-211 engines. BA later disposed of these models with a lower MTOW to DHL.

United 757s are powered by PW engines, not RR engines.

UA and AA both received their first 757s in the very late 1980s, about 5 years after the first 757s were delivered to BA and EA. Niether AA or UA have early build 757s.
 
aviateur
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 7:50 am

You can ask the same question about Asian/Middle Eastern/Pacific carriers. Quick, name one that operates the 757.....

SQ, no
NH, no
JL , no
MH, no
EK, no
QF, no

A few Chinese carriers do. (I believe SQ did have a handful of 757s many years ago). Elsewhere it's a marginal player.

Plenty of them here in the States, however.


- PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 59):
SQ, no
NH, no
JL , no
MH, no

As you pointed out, SQ operated four 752s for a short period (those airplanes went to ATA and are now with Delta).....SQ settled on the A310 for regional operations as Asian passengers prefer widebody aircraft. (SQ also operated by A300 and 72S for short periods of time.)

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 59):
EK, no

The 757 is far too small for EK's needs!!

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 59):
QF, no

But they should have......the 757 would have been ideal for QF's domestic, trans-tasman and regional asian destinations.

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 59):
Elsewhere it's a marginal player

WIth nearly 1000 sold, that doesnt sound quite right......but as I said above:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
when the 757 did gain popularity, it was primarily a ""US thing"" with the majority of 757s being sold to US carriers.
 
ncelhr
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 8:58 am

I am surprised that nobody mentioned the A321. With a similar capacity in high capacity config, Air France uses A321s.
As others have said, distances are shorter in Europe, hence no need for the range of the 757 when an A321 could do the job.
I personally prefer the 757. I've flown in all of BA's 757 that were sold to DHL back in the days when I used to do LHR-CDG & LHR-NCE twice a month (for 5 years), and they had better seat pitch than the A321s that Air France had because BA did not try to squeeze that many people in their sardine can.
 
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flylku
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Fri May 18, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
the 757, one of the most amazing and versatile airplanes ever produced,

Quite true. I've traveled on it from DCA-ORD, LAX-IAD, and PHL-LIS. I'm sure other A.netters have experienced equally diverse city pairs on this venerable old bird. How about in Europe, did BA operate it on routes as short as 600sm and longer that 3000sm?
...are we there yet?
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 1:00 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 51):
And sometimes airlines do operate competing types for a variety of reasons. Many airlines operate both the 737 and A32X, many operated the MD80 and 737 side by side, AF operates the A340 and 777. It happens.....and the fact that one airline operates two types in the same category certainly does not mean that the airliners do not compete in the marketplace.

very well, you have brought some excellent and convincing arguments  Smile  thumbsup 
what you say makes sense, i did omit in my reasoning, that in fact there are many airlines which use competing aircraft.

cheers and thanks for the clarifications!
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
efcar98
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting Aviateur (Reply 59):
A few Chinese carriers do. (I believe SQ did have a handful of 757s many years ago). Elsewhere it's a marginal player.

shanghai airlines? isnt that where the last 757 ln 1050 went to ?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 58):
United 757s are powered by PW engines, not RR engines.

Sorry for not being clearer, I meant that the BA plane I was on had the original RR RB-211-535C engines which came on BA and EA's first models. I know UA uses PW and AA ordered the new version RB-211-535E4B on theirs and got PW's on the acquired TW planes. That is why all DHL 757s have the -535C which has a stubby thing coming out the back of the engine
 
Leskova
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 54):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 18):
by the way, the 787 is having the same fate as the 757 concerning National European airlines.

If you mean the 787-3, then you're correct, although LH is still a somewhat likely customer for it, especially for use on FRA-LHR.

Since LH is increasingly moving to A321s and even A320s on that particular route, I continue to doubt that the A300 will see any direct replacement at LH


As for the B757 - as others have said... there was no need for a plane with its capabilities in Europe (for scheduled carriers) at the time that Boeing launched it, be it because the range/capacity wasn't needed, or the airlines already had A310s in their fleets.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 46):
European airlines will look to replace their 767s, A343s, early build A330s and even some early build 772s......so I think its safe to say that 787s will find homes with many airlines in Europe. With the operating costs offered by the 787, I cant imagine any airline not needing the type.

I never said _any_ airline not needing the _type_. There may be some 787's although not many, but what I really said is that by the time those A343's and A330's need replacing, there could very well be an airplane that is better than the 787. For the most part, European carriers are not in a big hurry to replace their relatively new A330/340 fleets. We shall wait and see.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 46):
As for range.....very rarely are airplanes used to their operational limits: airlines will happily purchase aircraft with additional range since its means increased operating flexibility.

My understanding is tha these ULH aircraft become more economical the longer they fly and if you deploy them in shorter range trips, you lose some of the economical advantages that are inherent to the aircraft. In my view that would in part explain why only very rich carriers like EK feel compeled to abuse/underuse their ULH aircraft. Pretty much everyone who has bought an A345/B777LR is using them on ULH sectors. You will not see DL operate their LR's from JFK/ATL to CDG.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 43):
I'm not so sure that you will see many 787's operating with European colors. I think it will suffer the same fate in Europe that the 757 did. The 787 is coming out at a time when most European carriers don't need it



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 66):
I never said _any_ airline not needing the _type_. There may be some 787's although not many,

I guess that I am confused.......my reading of your posts is that the sales outlook for the 787 in Europe is not very good. And, I disagree; the 787 has sold to several European airlines (TUI signed up this week) and will sell to many more European airlines, most of which have not yet made a decision concerning their next generation midsize airliner.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 66):
but what I really said is that by the time those A343's and A330's need replacing,

LH and AF, for example, have A343s that were delivered in the early 1990s, SN flies A330s built in the early 1990s as does AerLingus, BA is contemplating the future of its 763ER fleet.......all of these airlines will be making decisions concerning their fleet plans in the near-term future.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 66):
there could very well be an airplane that is better than the 787.

Which would be the A350XWB?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 66):

My understanding is tha these ULH aircraft become more economical the longer they fly and if you deploy them in shorter range trips, you lose some of the economical advantages that are inherent to the aircraft. In my view that would in part explain why only very rich carriers like EK feel compeled to abuse/underuse their ULH aircraft. Pretty much everyone who has bought an A345/B777LR is using them on ULH sectors. You will not see DL operate their LR's from JFK/ATL to CDG.

Its my understanding that there is little or no penalty for the long range offered by the 788 or 789 (unlike the 772LR which is slightly less economical on segments of less than 4000-5000 miles than the 772ER from what I have read).....thus the aircraft will offer excellent economics on all missions and not just those that approach their operating limits. And of course Delta will not be using is 772LRs on JFK to CDG.....why would they, it would be a ridiculous waste of resources.

(By the way, we are totally off-topic here.........apologies)
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Fri May 18, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Notarzt (Reply 56):
The main problem for Boeing and the 757 was the presence of the A310 which offered widebody comfort on medium-haul routes and a slightly larger capacity.



Quoting Leskova (Reply 65):
As for the B757 - as others have said... there was no need for a plane with its capabilities in Europe (for scheduled carriers) at the time that Boeing launched it, be it because the range/capacity wasn't needed, or the airlines already had A310s in their fleets.

If you compare 757 sales to A310 sales in Europe, the 757 did pretty well.

Based on direct buys by major European airlines:

757: 82
A310: 74

Above numbers are from the OEM websites and may have minor addition errors as I did it directly from the screen.

If you count all direct buy operators in Europe, the numbers come out to be:

757: 193
A310: 114

Counting all European operators, the 757 also looks pretty good against the A321:

757: 193
A321: 220

Of course this number will tilt more in favor of the A321 as it is still in production.

All in all, the 757 was and still is a major component of the European air transport system.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
EDICHC
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Sat May 19, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Flylku (Reply 62):
How about in Europe, did BA operate it on routes as short as 600sm and longer that 3000sm?

In the case of LHR-EDI/GLA significantly shorter, less that 400sm.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
varig_dc10
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Sat May 19, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Flylku (Reply 62):
How about in Europe, did BA operate it on routes as short as 600sm and longer that 3000sm?

BA used to operate the 757 between LHR and NCL and between LHR and MAN. I.e. 250 miles and 150 miles respetively.

Last night when I arrived in NCL on a flight from CDG, there were 7 x 757's parked at NCL:

2 x Thomson Fly
2 x Jet2
1 x Flyjet
1 x Finair (had wingtips, OH-LBR IIRC)
1 x Thomas Cook

Most are being used for charters, with the exception of Jet2 which is a budget airline.

Obviously I'd have been more suprised if there had been 7 x 727's parked up, but you just couldn't seem to move for them.

varig_dc10.
 
Notarzt
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Mon May 21, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 68):
If you compare 757 sales to A310 sales in Europe, the 757 did pretty well.

Based on direct buys by major European airlines:

757: 82
A310: 74

I guess you did not read the thread originator's posting:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 68):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

Actually, many European carriers placed orders for the 757 - but British Airways was the only national carrier to do so back in the 1980's (e.g. when the 757 was an all-new aircraft).  Wink By the way, small-sized national carrier Icelandair followed a few years later.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Mon May 21, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Notarzt (Reply 71):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 68):
If you compare 757 sales to A310 sales in Europe, the 757 did pretty well.

Based on direct buys by major European airlines:

757: 82
A310: 74

I guess you did not read the thread originator's posting:



Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I was wondering why the 757 was not popular with European national carriers? I mean, AFAIK only BA and IB fly them! why?
ps: I am not talking about charter airlines

No, I read the original post correctly. In the above 82 757's, I only counted the European national airlines that made 757 original buys. These are British Airways, Iberia and Icelandic.

Likewise, the 74 A310's only include European national airlines.

Maybe the question should have been:

Why was the A310 so unpopular with European national airlines that it could not out sell the 757?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
CV990
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Mon May 21, 2007 7:16 am

Hi!

Regarding TP, I remember when they started to think about fleet renovation, back to mid 80's Boeing offered the 757 to replace the 727-200's that TP had ( at that time 4 ) and the 737-200 to replace the 727-100 and for long-haul Boeing offered the 747SP. McDonnell Douglas came out with the DC-10-30 for long-haul operations and the MD80 for short/medium routes. Finally Lockheed offered the L1011-500 for long-haul operations and the 737-200 to replace the 727-100 keep TP the 727-200 for a few more years. Has you know TP accepted Lockheed offer and the 757 never came. Latter for medium and long-haul routes TP had Airbus and Boeing to make proposals, Airbus with the A310-300 ( a KL A310 came to make proving flights ) and the 767-200ER ( a TW 767-200ER also came to LIS to make some flights ) and has you also know TP got the A310-300. The A310 was used mostly to medium/long haul routes but also in high density airports in Europe like ORY, LHR and FRA.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Notarzt
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Mon May 21, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 72):
Maybe the question should have been:

Why was the A310 so unpopular with European national airlines that it could not out sell the 757?

Well... only five major European national carriers bought either the A310 or the 757 (or 767) back in the early 1980's. Four of them ordered the A310 (Lufthansa, Swissair, KLM, Air France), one chose the 757 (British Airways). So, the A310 was 'outsold' by the 757? Strange conclusion... or just another ideology thread á la "Airbus vs. Boeing", "Europe vs. United States"?!?

Actually, arguing about European national carriers back in the early 1980's, obviously neither the A310 nor the 757/767 met their needs for their intra-European networks. That's the only sense-making conclusion, indeed.

[Edited 2007-05-21 00:39:11]
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Mon May 21, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Notarzt (Reply 74):
So, the A310 was 'outsold' by the 757? Strange conclusion... or just another ideology thread á la "Airbus vs. Boeing", "Europe vs. United States"?!?

What's strange about the concept of 82 being larger than 74?

Quoting Notarzt (Reply 74):
Actually, arguing about European national carriers back in the early 1980's, obviously neither the A310 nor the 757/767 met their needs for their intra-European networks. That's the only sense-making conclusion, indeed.

I agree some what with this conclusion. The 757 obviously met BA's needs for their intra-European networks in the '80's, given their order history for the airplane.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Notarzt
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carri

Tue May 22, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 75):
Quoting Notarzt (Reply 74):
So, the A310 was 'outsold' by the 757? Strange conclusion... or just another ideology thread á la "Airbus vs. Boeing", "Europe vs. United States"?!?

What's strange about the concept of 82 being larger than 74?

Well, in this context the word 'outsold' means a higher acceptance among airline customers rather than pure number of sales. Only British Airways found the 757/767 suitable for its network, whereas four European national carriers selected the A310. But, actually, none of these aircraft 'outsold' the other with European national carriers in the early 1980's.  Wink
 
tonforty
Posts: 69
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Baexecutive (Reply 29):
It was similar in the UK, BA used to fly the 757 and 767 on the GLA/LHR route

As far as I know, BA still operate the 757 on the GLA-LHR route. I think theres one flight GLA-LHR at around 0735 and one comes back LHR-GLA in the early evening.

That was the case a few months ago anyway, when I last checked that route.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Why Wasn't The 757 Popular With European Carriers?

Tue May 22, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Notarzt (Reply 76):
But, actually, none of these aircraft 'outsold' the other with European national carriers in the early 1980's.

Then shouldn't the thread title have been "Why Weren't The A310 and 757 Popular With European Carriers?"?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis

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