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EA772LR
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LH And The 340-600

Thu May 17, 2007 11:56 pm

I was looking at some of the pics and noticed that LH is still taking delivery of new A346's. How many more do they have on order? And aside from fleet commonality, why has LH continued to take delivery of the 346's when the 77W is much more efficient? Don't get me wrong, I love the 346, and I think it's a great aircraft. Is because of political reasons or faster delivery times?
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:10 am

LH already has A346's in their fleet, so when they ordered more its for commonality reasons. Plus, LH uses their A340's (configuration-wise) very smartly, and utilizes as much space as they can.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Arniepie
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:11 am

Because if they cancel their outstanding orders they'll have to pay hefty penalties.
Once an order is firm there usually are penalties preset in case it gets cancelled.

The 346 is less efficient than the 773ER but cancelling it to get an all new type in your fleet which you have to pay for again plus paying the penalties is economical suicide.

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
Is because of political reasons

LH is privately owned so politics play no decisive role in airplane acquisition, they order planes when and wherever they need them (A380 / B748 / CRJ's / .... ).
Contrary to some US companies there are no real exclusivity deals made between carriers and airplane manufacturers, the AF group is still one of the biggest Boeing customers to date and so is VS , BA and even LH, the major carriers for the 3 most important Airbus countries.
[edit post]
 
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afterburner
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:12 am

I think it's because the A330/340 commonality benefits outweigh the efficiency of the 77W.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
How many more do they have on order?

Airbus orders and deliveries list shows 24 aircraft ordered, with 17 already delivered as of April this year. Four of them (the latest) are A340-642X.
 
roseflyer
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:22 am

Lufthansa already made the decision to purchase the A346. They made a thorough decision. There are plenty of reasons for why it could be the best plane for them. It has commonality with the A343. Its acquisition cost could have been lower. LH could have gotten delivery slots. The larger order could have come with incentives for additional planes.

Lufthansa made a decision, and maybe the A346 is the right plane for them. The 77W might not be as good as people think it is compared to the A346.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
EA772LR
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:26 am

"Four of them (the latest) are A340-642X."

Are these the new 346's w/ 60,000lb Trents and the extended range of around 7900-8000nm? Isn't this the only 346's Airbus is making now?
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 6):
Are these the new 346's w/ 60,000lb Trents and the extended range of around 7900-8000nm?

And a higher MTOW too.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...0a340/a340-600/specifications.html
 
WINGS
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
I was looking at some of the pics and noticed that LH is still taking delivery of new A346's. How many more do they have on order? And aside from fleet commonality, why has LH continued to take delivery of the 346's when the 77W is much more efficient? Don't get me wrong, I love the 346, and I think it's a great aircraft. Is because of political reasons or faster delivery times?

LH does not suffer any political pressure. They are a private company and one of the most profitable airlines in the world. For me that says alot.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 1):
LH already has A346's in their fleet, so when they ordered more its for commonality reasons. Plus, LH uses their A340's (configuration-wise) very smartly, and utilizes as much space as they can.

Correct.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
Because if they cancel their outstanding orders they'll have to pay hefty penalties.

I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. LH placed an additional order for 7 frames in November 2006. This was the third time that they placed an order for the type.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
The 346 is less efficient than the 773ER but cancelling it to get an all new type in your fleet which you have to pay for again plus paying the penalties is economical suicide.

The 77W is more economical vs the A346 in fuel burn, while their are many more factors to take into consideration.

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 3):
I think it's because the A330/340 commonality benefits outweigh the efficiency of the 77W.

This is one factor. The A346 also has a smaller acquisition price, which helps outweigh the fuel burn a little.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
WINGS
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 6):
Isn't this the only 346's Airbus is making now?

That's correct. Airbus will only have the HGW option for all future A345/A346.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Arniepie
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
'm sorry but this is just plain wrong.

I was just assuming the thread starter meant cancelling outstanding orders, there would be penalties in that case.

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
why has LH continued to take delivery of the 346's
[edit post]
 
EI321
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
Because if they cancel their outstanding orders they'll have to pay hefty penalties.
Once an order is firm there usually are penalties preset in case it gets cancelled.

That does not explain why they placed a fresh order for more last year.

LH recently released the fuel burn per seat figures for their entire fleet, both present and future (A380 & 748i). Its worth looking at.

http://www.lufthansa-financials.de/s...nvestors%20Day2007NicoBuchholz.pdf

According to LH, the A380 (549 seats) will burn 3.3l of fuel per passenger per 100km. I think the 748i (410 seats) is envisaged at 3.5l/100km A340-600 (369 seats) was something like 3.7l/100km (can somebody confirm?)
 
WINGS
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 10):
Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
'm sorry but this is just plain wrong.

I was just assuming the thread starter meant cancelling outstanding orders, there would be penalties in that case.

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
why has LH continued to take delivery of the 346's

Hi ArniePie, thanks for the clarification. That is why I stated that LH placed it's last order for the A346 about six months ago. The did so out of their own free will, which confirms that they did not cancel their previous orders due to compensation payments.

If this had not been the case, I would find it rather hard to believe that LH would risk to place additional orders for the A346, if they were not satisfied with it.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 1:01 am

You guys are forgetting something equaly important: The A346 is part of a family that was introduced before the 777 family (4 years earlier IIRC althought the A340 concept actually dates back to the 70's). Well run airlines like LH make long term fleet decisions so once they decided to go with the A340 family there was no going back. It just so happens that at the time LH needed the aircraft, the A340 was the best option. And all things considered, the A340 family is not exactly chopped liver. One day in the future people will be asking the same question about the 777  Smile
 
OceansWorld
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
The A346 is part of a family that was introduced before the 777 family (4 years earlier IIRC

The A340 entered service in March 1993, while the B777 did so in June 1995.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
A340-600 (369 seats) was something like 3.7l/100km (can somebody confirm?)

Er wrong ... 4.2l/100pkm is what LH stated in their last Balance publication ...

SailorOrion
 
EI321
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 15):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
A340-600 (369 seats) was something like 3.7l/100km (can somebody confirm?)

Er wrong ... 4.2l/100pkm is what LH stated in their last Balance publication ...

Sorry! Thanks, and by the way, could you post tha publication? Cheers.
 
Arniepie
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 12):
I would find it rather hard to believe that LH would risk to place additional orders for the A346, if they were not satisfied with it.

I don't think they are unhappy with it either and as for the 777-300ER it is always easy to use hindsight as to why they didn't and should have ordered it.

BTW a lot of the problems lately as to why its having CoG/weight issues is mainly because of the enormously grown luxury business and first class seats they (all the airliners) all seem to want to install.
I wonder how the 773ER is affected by this as it is also a very long aircraft?(never heard something about it so I guess it must not be such a big issue?)
[edit post]
 
trex8
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 2:31 am

what is the "average" proportion of fuel costs as a total of operating cost for a legacy airline?? I just recently heard on the radio it was about mid twenty percent and was half that several years ago. Is that correct? if so the differnce in fuel efficiency between two aircraft types, while possibly for some airlines the difference between being in the red or black may be easily swamped by other costs associated with acquiring and maintaining a new aircraft type and having a seperate aircrew pool etc.
 
cba
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):

LH does not suffer any political pressure. They are a private company and one of the most profitable airlines in the world. For me that says alot.

 checkmark 

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):

I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. LH placed an additional order for 7 frames in November 2006. This was the third time that they placed an order for the type.

 checkmark 

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
The 77W is more economical vs the A346 in fuel burn, while their are many more factors to take into consideration.

When LH placed the order, they had a large A343 fleet with A330's being delivered as well. Thus, although the 77W turned out to be a more efficient aircraft, the A346 fit very easily into the current LH fleet, whereas the 77W would have introduced an entirely new type. That said, the A346 also is much more efficient than the classic 747's that it was designed to replace. Hence, even though it is not as efficient as the 77W, it still allows airlines like LH and VS a big improvement over the classic 747's.
 
jacobin777
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 2:58 am

I took this LH A346 photo a few weeks ago at ORD... biggrin 

I think it was tail D-AIHO

"Up the Irons!"
 
aerosol
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 3:48 am

Because it's the best 4 holer of the 21 century - well at least so far!  Smile
 
cba
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 21):
Because it's the best 4 holer of the 21 century - well at least so far!

It is a fantastic plane to fly. I've flown on Virgin's A346's twice (IAD-LHR and LHR-BOS) and both trips where very pleasant. It's a very quiet and comfortable plane.

For all of the A340 bashing going on in the forum these days, it's one of my favorite planes to fly.
 
dutchjet
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 4:43 am

A couple of points:

There was speculation and rumors that LH was going to place an order for the 773ER instead of a followup order for the A346 - it did not happen, LH made the determination that adding more examples of the A346 to its fleet made more sense than introducing another type to its fleet. (LH did take a long hard look at the 773ER.) Most agree that the 773ER is the better airplane when comparing the 773ER and A346.....but LH had already committed to the A346, LH already flies the A333/A343/A346 on long haul routes, and adding a limited number of 773ERs did not make sense when looking at the big picture from a financial and operations point of view.

The A346 is NOT a bad airplane........its a good airplane that handles its missions in a satisfactory manner. True, some of the early build A346s were dogs (ask CX) and, true, the 773ER is more economical and the better all around package, but the other side of the story is that the A346 is more economical than the types it replaced (742s, DC10s, etc) and LH probably acquired the A346s for a lower price than 773ERs which partially offsets the fuel issue. (Please remember that I am a Boeing guy.....but all of the negative spin concerning the A346 is a bit over the top).

And, as far as LH being influenced by the politicians, one must accept that politicians will always try to stick their noses into airplane deals since lots of jobs and money are involved.........BUT do recall that LH is the launch customer for the passenger version of the 748 Intercontinental, so clearly, LH makes its own decisions.
 
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LTU932
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
Is because of political reasons

LH's fleet decisions are made in Cologne (at their Headquaters), not in Berlin.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
airbazar
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 14):
The A340 entered service in March 1993, while the B777 did so in June 1995.

But when was each of them offered to customers? That's the date that really matters. A quick google search shows me that the A340 was launched in June 1987 and it first flew in 89. The 777 was launched in 1990 and first flew in 1994. So a difference of 3 and 4 years respectively. In this industry that's a huge difference, expecially when you factor in the introduction of ETOPS 180 circa 1988, after the launch of the A340. By the early 90's when it became obvious that the 777 was going to be the better aircraft, it was simply too late for airlines like LH to go back. That's my opinion anyway  Smile
 
mk777
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 5:20 am

Can anyone list the destinations where the 17 A346 fly to from FRA & MUC?

Thanks a lot  Smile
come fly with me
 
Acheron
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):

http://www.lufthansa-financials.de/s...nvestors%20Day2007NicoBuchholz.pdf

Anyone noticed they included Sukhoi in that presentation?
 
jacobin777
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 26):
Can anyone list the destinations where the 17 A346 fly to from FRA & MUC?

MUC-ORD and MUC-SFO are two routes where LH flies the A346
"Up the Irons!"
 
OceansWorld
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 25):
But when was each of them offered to customers? That's the date that really matters. A quick google search shows me that the A340 was launched in June 1987 and it first flew in 89. The 777 was launched in 1990 and first flew in 1994. So a difference of 3 and 4 years respectively.

Well, the A330/340 programme was indeed launched in June 1987, but the A340 flew for the first time in October 1991. I haven't found an exact date, but I believe that the European airplanes were offered to potential customers in 1986.
The B777 was launched as you said in 1990, October 15th, following a commitment from UA, but the Boeing board's of director gave its authority to offer the 767-X in December 1989. Then, it's all "Working Together".

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 25):
By the early 90's when it became obvious that the 777 was going to be the better aircraft

That's probably the case because UA asked in the document that Albrecht and Condit (from Boeing) signed, that the aircraft should have the best dispatch reliability and the greatest customer appeal in the industry, and be user friendly with everything working from day one.

Its clear that the way Boeing conceived its aircraft was completely new then, hence the "Working Together" motto.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
Anyone noticed they included Sukhoi in that presentation?

Is that the regional jet on page 10 of the presentation???
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
DABVF
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 26):
Can anyone list the destinations where the 17 A346 fly to from FRA & MUC?

Thanks a lot

Currently:

From Frankfurt:
- Houston
- Toronto
- Vancouver
- Denver
- Osaka
- Seoul
- Guangzhou/Manila
- Tel Aviv

From Munich:
- Los Angeles
- San Francisco
- Chicago
- New York
- Shanghai
 
shane
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
MUC-ORD and MUC-SFO are two routes where LH flies the A346

Speaking of MUC-SFO, I noticed today when trying to book this flight that they're now offering 1st class on the route. When did that get added/reconfigured? Did they just switch to a 3-class plane or have they reconfigured?
 
f4f3a
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 8:05 am

just i thought , i did hear that airbus as an incentive paid customers who ordered the 340-600 the difference in fuel burn between 346 and 777 as compensation.
 
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moo
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting F4f3a (Reply 33):
just i thought , i did hear that airbus as an incentive paid customers who ordered the 340-600 the difference in fuel burn between 346 and 777 as compensation.

Airbus was considering that as a sales incentive, as stated by Leahy if I remember correctly sometime in 2006, but no news surfaced after that initial musing.
 
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PM
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 19):
When LH placed the order, they had a large A343 fleet with A330's being delivered as well.

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure LH ordered their first A346s before they ordered A330s. They certainly started taking delivery of A346s before they received any A333s.
 
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LTU932
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
Just for the record, I'm pretty sure LH ordered their first A346s before they ordered A330s. They certainly started taking delivery of A346s before they received any A333s.

True, but maybe at that time, LH was also taking delivery of the ex SR and SN A332s, which they leased as stopgap measure until the A333s arrive.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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PM
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 1:00 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 36):
True, but maybe at that time, LH was also taking delivery of the ex SR and SN A332s, which they leased as stopgap measure until the A333s arrive.

Yep. Could well be.
 
rootsair
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
Boeing customers to date and so is VS , BA and even LH, the major carriers for the 3 most important Airbus countries.

However its not the case with IB. Their soon-to-be all Airbus fleet has a little political taste behind it !

 airplane  wave 
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting Shane (Reply 32):
Speaking of MUC-SFO, I noticed today when trying to book this flight that they're now offering 1st class on the route. When did that get added/reconfigured? Did they just switch to a 3-class plane or have they reconfigured?

All MUC-based A340-600s are three class (8/60/234), called the 34D, all FRA-based A340-600s are currently 2-class, as FRA has the 74P when a first-class cabin is needed.

SailorOrion
 
CXfirst
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
The 77W is more economical vs the A346 in fuel burn, while their are many more factors to take into consideration.

True. But, remember the A346 is incredibly good when it comes to fuel burn, but the 77W is even better. When comparing the A346 to slightly older planes, the gap is far larger there than the 77W is to the A346. Penalties, and fleet comminality are factors which will cost more for LH than getting 77W's.

-CXfirst
 
Arniepie
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 38):
However its not the case with IB. Their soon-to-be all Airbus fleet has a little political taste behind it !

Not saying you haven't got a point but Iberia was historically more an MD customer than a Boeing customer, when MD got off the market they switched to Airbus and where among the first to commit to the 340, now they've got it in their fleet it only seems logical that they hang on to it and have chosen the 346 over the 777.
IB seems to be making a lot of profit the last couple of years so they must be doing something good and the policy of fleet commonality seems to be important to them.
Also they are among the most loyal 747 users and are one of the few European carriers that went for the 757.
As you say, politics might have played a part in it but it seems not a very important one.

Outside the US (and probably Japan) there seems to be no exclusivity deals being made between customers and aircraft suppliers.
Don't take this as critique or an accusation for protectionism, maybe/probably ,there was a very good business reason for AA/CO/DL to make these deals (fixed lower prices/beneficial delivery schedules/....).
As for Japan, I can't help but wonder if it has all to do with wanting to get a foot in the aviation building industry, of all countries they seem to be having the more political influenced airline acquisition policies, also an easy way to decrease the mounting trade deficit between them and the US.
[edit post]
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 18):
I just recently heard on the radio it was about mid twenty percent and was half that several years ago.

Currently, fuel is between 45% and 50% of airplane direct operating costs.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
EDICHC
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 22):
For all of the A340 bashing going on in the forum these days, it's one of my favorite planes to fly.

Sorry to say but my only experience of the A346 was not favourable. I simply hated the FRA-CAN-MNL trip I made with LH acouple of years back. I all fairness though that had more to do with the relatively poor IFE and service. I also found the seats very uncomfortable and cramped.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 42):
Currently, fuel is between 45% and 50% of airplane direct operating costs.

For long hauls, 45% is possible, but the direct operating costs are about 50% of the total operating costs, so the fuel costs amount to 22.5% of the total costs.

SailorOrion
 
dutchjet
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 43):

Sorry to say but my only experience of the A346 was not favourable. I simply hated the FRA-CAN-MNL trip I made with LH acouple of years back. I all fairness though that had more to do with the relatively poor IFE and service. I also found the seats very uncomfortable and cramped.

Seats and IFE (or lack thereof) is an airline specified item and has little to do with the airliner itself. It has nothing at all to do with the A346.......if you flew on a 773ER with the same seat design and the same IFE systems, you would have been unimpressed with that airliner as well.
 
EDICHC
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Fri May 18, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 45):
I all fairness though that had more to do with the relatively poor IFE and service. I also found the seats very uncomfortable and cramped.

Seats and IFE (or lack thereof) is an airline specified item and has little to do with the airliner itself. It has nothing at all to do with the A346.....

I think that is exactly what I was saying.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
shane
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RE: LH And The 340-600

Wed May 23, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 39):
All MUC-based A340-600s are three class (8/60/234), called the 34D,

Well that's good news. Last year I flew this route (LH 458 & 459) several times, and it was a two-class plane. I'm glad to see the change.
 
na
Posts: 9835
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: LH And The 340-600

Wed May 23, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 8):
The 77W is more economical vs the A346 in fuel burn, while their are many more factors to take into consideration.

For instance the 773ER is a lot more expensive to buy. Although nobody pays list price, they´re surely a good indication of the comparison in real price.
773ER vs. A346 fuel and maintenance economics is not good against bad, its very good+ against very good. Once the 748I and the A350-1000 are flying, the 773ER will find itself in the role the A346 is now, not always quite good enough to compete.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: LH And The 340-600

Wed May 23, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
LH's fleet decisions are made in Cologne (at their Headquaters), not in Berlin.

no nitpicking intended, but LH's fleet decisions are made in Frankfurt. that is where the fleet strategy team sits and where also the CEO resides and where the supervisory boards comes together. there's not much decision-making going on in either Cologne or Berlin.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.

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