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EI321
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 53):
Replacing 744 with 77W: BAD and BAD.

I think its good, the 777 is more comfortable than the 747*. And they are also replacing 747s with A380s.

edit: * assuming the 777 is in 9 abreast.

[Edited 2007-05-24 14:41:05]
 
UA777300ER
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting Parapente (Reply 49):
Here is a "what if". A growing number of airlines are bypassing the 7478.More by the day.What if at Paris we hear that BA has ordered say 30 A380's and 40 787's? Which premium airline would dare to go for the smaller less spacious option?

Well, I guess there will always be a (though perhaps limited) demand for an aircraft to fill the gap between the A380 and 777-300ER. Even if none of the 'premium airlines' (except Lufthansa) are buying it, there will probably be some current smaller 747 operators that go for the -8. And I guess we could count EK as a premium airline and they have shown some interest in it. And besides, the freighter should be able to cover a big part of the R&D costs.

Just my 2 cents...

Tom
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:51 pm

The real "news", and quite a surprise, are the 2 additional A380. It seems they are a compensation for delays on the first order.
It means also that this compensation will not be given on a future order of the A350, which is not also a surprise , as strong rumors here at AF say that AF will order the B787 to replace the A343.

The A32X order was announced (including by me on A.Net) last December, as a replacement of the oldest A320-100 .
This order should comprise some A321 to be based at ORY .

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3165125

The 13 B777 PAX ordered are all B777-300ER. They will replace the 13 remaining B744 PAX in service. That was also announced last October 2006 (including by me here on A.net   )
The 5 Freighters are B772LRF


https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3030218

As mentioned, they will be configured in a 2 class config J/Y , just like the current B744 in service, and will replace them on the routes to BKK, MIA, SFO, GIG, CCS, etc ....

[Edited 2007-05-24 15:14:19]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:52 pm

I think people forget AF loves the 777 because they can put in more premium seating compared to the A340, something AF really likes. This will allow AF to assign their 777-200ER fleet to fly more routes to the African continent.
 
airbazar
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Parapente (Reply 32):
Excuse me for being stupid here. But if the A380 were PART of a compensation deal (the rest in cash) it implies that they were GIVEN these planes! That can't be right (or Airbus is going bust very soon if you consider all their A380 clients). If they mean they got a discount then why the "cash component" why not just discount further? Finally why say it at all ?(other to slight Airbus and crow about the discount) -it is unusual business practice.It implies they didn't really want them at all really which could harm Airbus for no personal gain. (Then again I am not French)

It's part of the contract. In fact it's part of every contract. If one side can't deliver on what was promised, a compensation often ensues. Simple as that. It's not a secret or a surprise.
 
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PM
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 52):
They will replace the 13 remaining B744 PAX

Who was it recently (in another thread) arguing that no airline is replacing 744s with 77Ws?  Yeah sure
 
jfk777
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:02 pm

A sad day for teh 744 at Air France since they have operated 747's since 1971, by the time the last one retires it will be almost 40 years. AF loves the 773ER for their prime routes with First Class and with the awful 10 accross seating for the French Caribean routes.
 
EI321
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 53):
I think people forget AF loves the 777 because they can put in more premium seating compared to the A340, something AF really likes.

Correct. Air France say that one of the reasons they ordered the 777 in the first place was its ability to operate in high density configurations.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 44):
My impression has been that AF buy based on what works best for them with no apparent political overtones.

Same with BA I think. I am really getting tired of the anything French bashing. Just went out last night and purchased an awesome French Pinot Noir and was thinking about how dumb all that crap was, and I am a consrvative that votes mostly Republican BTW.

Quoting PM (Reply 55):
Who was it recently (in another thread) arguing that no airline is replacing 744s with 77Ws?

Someone who has clearly not been paying attention to major purchasing trends.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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PM
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 58):
Someone who has clearly not been paying attention to major purchasing trends.

 bigthumbsup 
 
YULYMX
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:24 pm

Question about AF... Are the Crew base in PARIS, or Crew base out of CDG or ORY... Lets say Crew of B773 which operate from ORY and CDG, could they swicht the Crew from Airport or a Crew is base out one airport?

Thank's
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 58):
Someone who has clearly not been paying attention to major purchasing trends.

The same people who systematically answers "AIR FRANCE" when comes back (approximately every two weeks) the eternal topic : "Airlines with the most diverse fleet "

 Wink
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 48):
Already 69 777 orders this year. That's amazing. 100 this year seems very possible now.

The success of the 777 has been amazing over the last three years and it is no wonder Airbus is aiming the A350 at the 777 as much as the 787.

Air France LOVE their Boeing/GE longhaul and can anyone really see them ordering A350 over 787... not likely.

Zvezda reckons 777 orders are up to 970. How many of the last 300 hundred ordered are C market GE powered versions?
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 60):
Question about AF... Are the Crew base in PARIS, or Crew base out of CDG or ORY... Lets say Crew of B773 which operate from ORY and CDG, could they swicht the Crew from Airport or a Crew is base out one airport?

Crews are based in PARIS.
There are some "divisions", based at ORY & CDG :
ORY : Domestic
ORY : Caribbean/Indian Ocean
CDG : Europe / North Africa
CDG : Americas
CDG : Asia / Pacific
CDG : Africa / Middle East
CDG : Caribbean / Indian Ocean

but CDG crews sometimes fly from Orly, and ORY crews sometimes operate flights to/from CDG.
Personnaly, I belong to the Diviion "America", but every 4 or 5 months, I have a flight to PTP or FDF from ORY...

AF has another Crew base in PPT.
 
VivaGunners
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 29):
I believe these numbers to be correct. All B772ERs are mainline 3-class configured aircraft (4P, 49J, 211Y), whereas there will be 3 different versions of the passenger B77W: the mainline 3-class low density version and 3-class high density ORY based Caribbean and Indian Ocean version and a new 2-class mainline configuration that will replace the current 2-class B744 aircraft.

Any info on how many seats the 2-class 77Ws will have? I guess in the region of 350 seats, what do you think?
Any ideas for a signature?
 
YULYMX
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 63):
Crews are based in PARIS.
There are some "divisions", based at ORY & CDG :
ORY : Domestic
ORY : Caribbean/Indian Ocean
CDG : Europe / North Africa
CDG : Americas
CDG : Asia / Pacific
CDG : Africa / Middle East
CDG : Caribbean / Indian Ocean

but CDG crews sometimes fly from Orly, and ORY crews sometimes operate flights to/from CDG.
Personnaly, I belong to the Diviion "America", but every 4 or 5 months, I have a flight to PTP or FDF from ORY...

AF has another Crew base in PPT.

Thank you very much for your answer
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 62):
Air France LOVE their Boeing/GE longhaul and can anyone really see them ordering A350 over 787... not likely

AF's A343 need a replacement. As I mentioned above, AF "officially" is studying both the A350 & B787 as a replacement.
But it is more likely that the B787 will be chosen, particularly if the A350 is not proposed with GE engines (which is the case until now).
 
na
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 66):
AF's A343 need a replacement.

And soon afterwards they need to replace the 772ERs, they´re just a few years younger.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 62):
The success of the 777 has been amazing over the last three years and it is no wonder Airbus is aiming the A350 at the 777 as much as the 787.

Yes, BUT, the 777 market is clearly smaller than the 787 market. It appears that Airbus is aiming right in the middle, which is smart considereing that two new planes is out of the question and there is clearly a need for something in the middle. This way they are tapping into both markets with one plane.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting VivaGunners (Reply 64):
Any info on how many seats the 2-class 77Ws will have? I guess in the region of 350 seats, what do you think?

It should be around 42J/320Y, more or less .
 
bigjku
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Parapente (Reply 46):
A growing number of airlines are bypassing the 7478.More by the day.What if at Paris we hear that BA has ordered say 30 A380's and 40 787's?

I don't get this sort of thinking. The head of BA has clearly gone on record saying they could possibly use around 10 or so A380's. That is it. They are not going to order 30 of them. The A380 program probably has the majority of the orders it is going to get without a new model. BA might well order but I would be shocked if it was more than the 10-15 range.

I think the 777 order from AF pretty much sets the A350 aside. It just does make sense to order 13 brand new 777's and turn around and order A350's.
 
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United787
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
will most likely start to replace early built A32X's



Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 12):
Heard that 2/3 of the A320s will replace older models and the other third is to increase the fleet.

Does anyone else find it interesting that AF is replacing an airplane type with the same airplane type of the same general generation? I understand that the early A320s have been improved upon significantly, but they are still part of the same generation of aircraft, the A320 has not had a major upgrade like the 737 had. It seems like that usually, when an airline replaces an aircraft, there is a newer generation of aircraft to choose from; at least newer than the one they are replacing. Does anyone have any other examples of this? I understand that the reason they need to replace the aircraft is that they are meeting the end of their lives with cycles...
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 67):
And soon afterwards they need to replace the 772ERs, they´re just a few years younger.

First AF A340 : F-GLZB, delivered on Feb. 26 1993. Sold to Air Madrid.
"Oldest" AF A340 in service : F-GLZC, delivered on Sept. 30 1993.


First AF B772ER : F-GSPA, delivered on March 27. 1998
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 53):
I think people forget AF loves the 777 because they can put in more premium seating compared to the A340, something AF really likes. This will allow AF to assign their 777-200ER fleet to fly more routes to the African continent.

Given that this B77W order is a specific one for one B744 replacement, I find that highly unlikely to happen. The A332/A343 will remain the workhorse of the African operation until an A343 replacement comes along.

Quoting TGV (Reply 49):
Bad because, even with the 2 class config, the number of seats will go down, and so the prices will go up.



Quoting VivaGunners (Reply 64):
Any info on how many seats the 2-class 77Ws will have? I guess in the region of 350 seats, what do you think?



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 69):
It should be around 42J/320Y, more or less .

Well, we'll have to wait and see what is going to happen to those B77Ws. While I agree that 42J/320Y is probably not far off the mark, let's not forget that KLM is currently gearing up for a 35J/393Y configuration in its B77Ws, including a 10-abreast seating in the back. I don't think that AF will go for a 10-abreast in its mainline frames, (the 10-abreast appears in the COI frames at ORY) but I guess we shouldn't just discard it either, given that these aircraft are going to be put to use on the airline's trunk international routes, many of which are of a lower yielding nature.
 
zvezda
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 62):
Zvezda reckons 777 orders are up to 970. How many of the last 300 hundred ordered are C market GE powered versions?

Total orders for C market 777s, through the end of April, are:
777-200LR: 47
777-300ER: 256
777F: 71
 
Someone83
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 74):
Total orders for C market 777s, through the end of April, are:
777-200LR: 47
777-300ER: 256
777F: 71

Isn't there a few 200ER orders also, such as the 4 for BA?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 13):
what shame Sad no more AF744's...I was hoping they'd go for the 748 at least



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 52):

The 13 B777 PAX ordered are all B777-300ER. They will replace the 13 remaining B744 PAX in service.

...me too..I get the feeling we will eventually no longer see any B747's in AF's fleet after a while, it will be a mix of B77W's and A380's... Sad


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FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 73):
given that these aircraft are going to be put to use on the airline's trunk international routes, many of which are of a lower yielding nature

Maybe you are right ...
But don't forget that on the COI routes where the 10-abreast seats B77W are used, AF is facing a competition from airlines who operate their aircraft in a similar or even worse configuration (ex: Corsair ).

If AF would operate such a configuration on its flights to MIA, SFO, GIG, BKK, there would be a far stronger competition from much better ranked airlines.
The replacement of the thirsty B744 on those routes by B77W is also way for AF to improve the yield by reducing the operating costs.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 74):
Total orders for C market 777s, through the end of April, are:
777-200LR: 47
777-300ER: 256
777F: 71

The 773ER is not a C-market aircraft.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 77):
If AF would operate such a configuration on its flights to MIA, SFO, GIG, BKK, there would be a far stronger competition from much better ranked airlines.
The replacement of the thirsty B744 on those routes by B77W is also way for AF to improve the yield by reducing the operating costs.

I agree with you, and I actually don't think AF will put a 10-abreast in the 2-class B77Ws. However, KL is gearing up for it, despite the 9-abreast configuration on its 15 B772ERs. If AF does not put a 10-abreast in its 2-class frames, it will serve as yet another reminder that KL is more and more becoming the AF Low Cost/Low Yield Division.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 66):
AF's A343 need a replacement. As I mentioned above, AF "officially" is studying both the A350 & B787 as a replacement. But it is more likely that the B787 will be chosen, particularly if the A350 is not proposed with GE engines (which is the case until now).

The 787-9 would make a very nice A343 replacement, with similar floor space for similar seating densities (plus the advantage of adding an extra seat per row in Economy), a bit wider cabin to allow perhaps more premium cabin seating in First and Business (or more space with existing seating), four additional LD3 positions, and longer range.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Thu May 24, 2007 11:56 pm

Note that the 2 A380 are the confirmation of 2 on the 5 options placed by AF in its initial order.
 
WINGS
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 81):
Note that the 2 A380 are the confirmation of 2 on the 5 options placed by AF in its initial order.

Air France only had 4 options for the A388.

Flight International is now reporting that 18 A320's will come from Airbus will the remaining 12 frames will be leased.

The board also approved proposals to replace 30 of its older Airbus A320s with 30 new aircraft, 18 of which will come from Airbus and the remainder from leasing companies. All the new aircraft are for the Air France fleet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...et-with-18-777s-and-two-a380s.html

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 82):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 81):
Note that the 2 A380 are the confirmation of 2 on the 5 options placed by AF in its initial order.

Air France only had 4 options for the A388.

Flight International is now reporting that 18 A320's will come from Airbus will the remaining 12 frames will be leased.

The board also approved proposals to replace 30 of its older Airbus A320s with 30 new aircraft, 18 of which will come from Airbus and the remainder from leasing companies. All the new aircraft are for the Air France fleet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...et-with-18-777s-and-two-a380s.html

Regards,
Wings

...Hi Wings... Smile

..congratulations to AF/Airbus on the order....nice to see them taking up their A380 options... checkmark 

..I expect them to take their remaining two A380 options....

..the A320 order was rather expected for their narrowbody planes...

...of course, I'm not complaining that AF is taking more B77W's.. bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 82):
Air France only had 4 options for the A388.

Ooops ! typo. Thanks for correcting.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 82):
The board also approved proposals to replace 30 of its older Airbus A320s with 30 new aircraft

Not Exactely.
The 30 new A32X will be used to replace 19 of the oldest A320 (including of course the last 13 A320-100 in service). The rest is for AF's European network expansion.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 18):
I wonder how much of a discount they got for those 18 777s... and if all of them would be -300ERs.

A heck of a lot less of a discount than on the A380's. 777-300ER is one of the hottest selling frames right now so there is not a lot of incentive for Boeing to discount too heavily!
 
flysherwood
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Parapente (Reply 39):
Yes but Air France clearly does not need cash looking at its profits whereas Airbus needs it more than anything right now.They would have got a far better deal with a discount (again unless they did not really want them.)

Many here on A.net will tell you that Airbus doesn't have any cashflow problems!  Wink
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 12:57 am

wasn't AF very critical of the 773 because of its supposed impact on runways being worse than the A380, something to do with how the weight is distributed over the landing gear?

and if AF is buying 777s to replace 747s, doesn't that go against airbus's claim that what airlines are looking for is extra capacity per flight?
 
flyorski
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 15):
What's going on here? Or am I reading too much into all this?

Actually, even though AF has said that for five years the brands will not change, I think that the KLM brand may slowly die, and it does already seem to be happening, as KLM has very few new planes on order.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
manni
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 88):
if AF is buying 777s to replace 747s, doesn't that go against airbus's claim that what airlines are looking for is extra capacity per flight?

Not sure. What routes will the 12 A380s fly Air France ordered? Routes previously operated by 747s perhaps? What was the maximum number of 744 pax aircraft Air France has operated at once? Besides, how many seats has AF in their 773s and how many do they have onboard their 744s?
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 88):
wasn't AF very critical of the 773 because of its supposed impact on runways being worse than the A380, something to do with how the weight is distributed over the landing gear?

That was a problem specific at Orly Airport, on one of the 2 main Runways.
Work to reinforce some part of that Runway was done at ORY early 2006 before AF took delivery of its first Orly-based B77W.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 88):
and if AF is buying 777s to replace 747s, doesn't that go against airbus's claim that what airlines are looking for is extra capacity per flight?

I would rather say it goes against Boeing's claim that there is still a place for a B747-8, in between the B77W and the A380.

It confirms what I always said : AF will NEVER buy the B747-8, because there is no need for such an aircraft for any airline who will be operating both B77W & A380.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 90):
What routes will the 12 A380s fly Air France ordered? Routes previously operated by 747s perhaps?

The B77W has already taken over all the premium routes, mostly operated previously by the B744 : JFK, NRT, PEK, SIN, LAX, etc ...

The A380 will take over the premium/biggest B77W routes where added capacity is needed, but where this additional capacity can't be provided by additional flights for various reasons (slot restrictions, enough frequencies, bilateral agreement restrictions, etc ... : JFK (already 6 x Daily flights), NRT (slot restrictions, curfew), etc ...
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting NA (Reply 67):
And soon afterwards they need to replace the 772ERs, they´re just a few years younger.

And some are even older as both have been slowly added to the fleet until 2001.

I wonder id there is not some fleet growth in this order too : the 77W can replace the 744 1 by 1 indeed, but the A380 were supposed to replace them. Those 77W can actually replace some 343s on 2-class routes (with a HUGE capacity increase), but 13 does not match 19! The 343s will still be needed (and as some are very young, I doubt this will be a problem for AF -they might wanna keep the 313X longer than less performant older units-)

Quoting TGV (Reply 49):
Replacing 744 with 77W: BAD and BAD.Bad because the comfort of the 774 Upper Deck will be lost. And I don't like the noisy 777 (give me a 343 any day).Bad because, even with the 2 class config, the number of seats will go down, and so the prices will go up.

I quite agree with you, but you seem to forget about the 380. It will have more capacity than the 744, so that might sum up to a total seat offer being equivalent, and (hopefully) fares won't go up too much.
I disagree about the 744 replacement being bad, I think they are actually a disgrace to AF long-haul product, with no PTV, older seats, they fail to match AF standards in many points. Add to that the much larger number of people = more boarding time, more luggage wait... Non merci!
I agree that this will be even worse with the A380 but at least the pax will fly in the newest and most modern equipment (a good "reward" for the unconvenience of mass flying).
True that the 777 is noisier, but, even though I am also a big A330/340 fan due to 2-4-2 seating and quietness, I must admit that the 3-3-3 seating is very comfortable and wide, and that makes the 777 also a very good plane to fly on.

Quoting TGV (Reply 49):
Cost cutting plan of 1.4 billion euros: BAD because obviously this will mean some reduction in the quality of service.

I also fear some job cutting here, in total agreement with France's current trends on the domain and the last thing that the country needs.
When I doubt... go running!
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 31):
Quoting TYCOON (Reply 9):
Has any one stopped to ask why Air France is so GE dedicated?

Yes, but if it were a "Go France" thing, they'd be keeping more currency in France by buying from Airbus than by using GE engines with SNECMA as a partner. Air France has shown a preference for GE everywhere. Maybe they are just really happy with GE...

I think they are just really happy with their GE engines... and why wouldn't they be? GE engines are great! AF has CF6's on their 747s, which is before SNECMA was involved. In any event, the GE90s on 773ER have not just met, but beaten their expectations for performance... hard to complain about that.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 58):
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 44):
My impression has been that AF buy based on what works best for them with no apparent political overtones.

Same with BA I think. I am really getting tired of the anything French bashing.

I think AF is very fair in their buying of aircraft, and I can question few or no of their decisions, I have never found them to be political. I would argue BA is much more influenced by politics than even AF, while some link AF's affinity for GE engines to GE's often partnership with the French SNECMA, AF has been GE's loyal customer since before GE and SNECMA ever partnered, and on engines which SNECMA has no hand in (CF6-80). BA on the other hand, buys RR's exclusively and won't really consider aircraft on which they are not an option. The few GE's they bought garnered them scorn in the UK, and so all following 777s were bought with RR engines. In that aspect, I think BA can be political.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 73):

Well, we'll have to wait and see what is going to happen to those B77Ws. While I agree that 42J/320Y is probably not far off the mark, let's not forget that KLM is currently gearing up for a 35J/393Y configuration in its B77Ws, including a 10-abreast seating in the back.

KL's first 777-300ER's are in high density layout for specific markets.

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 87):

Many here on A.net will tell you that Airbus doesn't have any cashflow problems! Wink

To be fair, people on A.net will tell you more or less anything.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 91):
AF will NEVER buy the B747-8, because there is no need for such an aircraft for any airline who will be operating both B77W & A380.

NEVER? I think you are wrong. I'm pretty sure that Lufthansa, who has A380 orders and flies a large fleet of A340-600s (which are peers to 777-300ER) just ordered 20 747-8i's. So never? I think it already happened. I don't think AF will order any 747-8i's, I don't see their current setup needing it, but saying an airline with 777-300ER/A340-600 and A380 will NEVER need 747-8i is clearly fallacy.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27498
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 18):
I wonder how much of a discount they got for those 18 777s...

The PR and DJ orders both went out at 42%, so I imagine AF received the same.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 93):
I think they are actually a disgrace to AF long-haul product, with no PTV,

Well, this is 10 B744 on a total long-haul fleet of more than 90 aircraft ...
And I know a very famous and praised German airline, of which the name begins by "L" and finishes by "A" who doesn't offer PTV in any of it's aircraft, or so ... Big grin  Wink  Silly

Quoting TGV (Reply 49):
Cost cutting plan of 1.4 billion euros: BAD because obviously this will mean some reduction in the quality of service.

Cost cutting will not impact the quality of service. Everybody agrees to say that AF's service has improved regularly in the past 10 years, despite all the (successful) efforts to reduce costs and improve competition.

A renewed fleet will be the source of even more money saved :
1 Aircraft family for the short/medium haul : A318 / A319 / A320 / A321
3 aircraft families for the long haul : A380 / B777 / A343-A332

All aircraft powered by a single engine manufacturer : GE.

Common maintenance, strategy, rationalization, decision center with KLM will also be the source of a lot of savings.

Increase of e-services, improvement of CDG infrastructure, etc ... will also be part of this cost cutting plan.

Quoting TGV (Reply 49):
Bad because, even with the 2 class config, the number of seats will go down, and so the prices will go up.

Not systematically : a 2 class config B77W will offer less seats than 2 class config B744. This will enable AF to add some frequencies as a compensation, which means more connections opportunities at the CDG HUB.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5334
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 94):
NEVER? I think you are wrong. I'm pretty sure that Lufthansa, who has A380 orders and flies a large fleet of A340-600s (which are peers to 777-300ER) just ordered 20 747-8i's. So never? I think it already happened. I don't think AF will order any 747-8i's, I don't see their current setup needing it, but saying an airline with 777-300ER/A340-600 and A380 will NEVER need 747-8i is clearly fallacy.

You are right. I forgot Lufthansa.
But It doesn't make sense to me... And the less we can say is that LH fleet policy is not very clear and not very logical.
While everybody tends to agree that fleet rationalization is the key of costs saving, LH just keep operating so many aircraft types
 Confused

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 94):
I think they are just really happy with their GE engines...



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 94):
I think AF is very fair in their buying of aircraft, and I can question few or no of their decisions, I have never found them to be political. I would argue BA is much more influenced by politics than even AF, while some link AF's affinity for GE engines to GE's often partnership with the French SNECMA, AF has been GE's loyal customer since before GE and SNECMA ever partnered, and on engines which SNECMA has no hand in (CF6-80).

There again, I agree 100%.

Everything seems always Political when it's about Air France choices !

The fact is that choosing GE to power ALL its entire fleet, from A318 to A380 is a very smart decision and the source of Millions of € savings in maintenance.
This is also a big reason of AF success and excellent financial results.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10149
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:24 am

Congrats to Air France!

It's good to see airlines ordering new planes, from either A or B. It's a good indication that airlines are continuing to recover from the horrors of a few years ago and I'm pleased to see every order.

When is AF supposed to make a decision on a 787/350 order?

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
PS: why was this announced before the air show?

Maybe because of the 18 777s that are being ordered. Makes a news release announcement a better option.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5334
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Air France $7b Order

Fri May 25, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting N1786b (Thread starter):
why was this announced before the air show?



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 98):
When is AF supposed to make a decision on a 787/350 order?

Maybe precisely because they want keep the annoucement of the B787 order for the Paris Air Show !  Silly

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 93):
I wonder id there is not some fleet growth in this order too : the 77W can replace the 744 1 by 1 indeed, but the A380 were supposed to replace them. Those 77W can actually replace some 343s on 2-class routes (with a HUGE capacity increase), but 13 does not match 19! The 343s will still be needed (and as some are very young, I doubt this will be a problem for AF -they might wanna keep the 313X longer than less performant older units-)

The 4 remaining A343-311 (F-GLZC, F-GLZG, F-GLZH, F-GLZI) are planned to be retired in a close future, leaving only a fleet of 15 A343-313X

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