Beaucaire
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Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:53 pm

In a drive to ask for even more data from visiting passengers,the Department of Homeland Security is putting pressure to kill the VWP (Visa Waiver Program ) from those 27 countries so far entitled to send their citizens simply with a computer -readable passport.
It's either you give us even more data as now or we implement new visa rules...



in English

and the article in the French paper "Le Figaro" -usually considered as trustworthy source of information ICI

[Edited 2007-06-02 08:08:50]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:00 pm

What's the difference between a visa and a passport, in terms of amount and type of information that the government gets?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
kaitak
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:03 pm

What more info do they want? Asking for visas just seems to require just another level of bureaucracy; surely they get more info now than they could ever get using a visa application? It just seems ridiculous and of course, the consequences for travel between Europe and the US would be pretty catastrophic; people will simply go elsewhere.

I understand there is an issue in the UK about Pakistanis with UK passports (i.e. those resident in the UK) and that the Americans wanted these to be subject to visa restrictions, but understandably the UK was not willing to have one rule for one group of citizens and another for a small group.
 
rtfm
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
the consequences for travel between Europe and the US would be pretty catastrophic; people will simply go elsewhere.

Not to mention that any European country that finds itself having to apply for visas to the US will no doubt reciprocate..... Visa waiver cuts both ways....
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:15 pm

An interesting passage in the "Le Figaro" article ..
"Alors que les représentants de l'Allemagne (présidente en exercice) et de l'UE à Washington multiplient les interventions au Congrès en faveur de l'égalité de traitement, un responsable du dossier dénonce « le manque de solidarité et la mauvaise foi de quelques-uns, qui préfèrent s'entendre avec les États-Unis plutôt que s'accorder avec leurs partenaires européens. » Le reproche vise directement la République tchèque, la Hongrie et la Pologne, « dans cet ordre ».

Meaning that currently Germany (at the ECC Presidency currently ) is intensifying consultations with the USA in a drive to defend a unified European front,some countries -namely the Czech republic,Hungary and Poland,try to shortcut the EEC led discussions by searching individual talks and solutions with the Americans....
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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Coal
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:15 pm

So? Australia requires visas for everyone.  Yeah sure

Cheers
Coal
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LAXintl
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:21 pm

One of the reason why the US is reluctant to continue offering the visa-waiver program is the increasing pressure the EU is applying that the program cover all EU member state citizens, and not only of those current nations that participate.

In addition the continued inability for the US to come to an agreement with the EU over transfer of passenger information data adds pressure to void the program and apply blanket visa rules for all countries as significantly more info can be gathered via visa applications.

Ultimately, I'd say the Europeans control their own destiny and future of the program.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
chinaeastern
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):

but the australian visa for citizens from countries which waive a visa for australians are straight forward and not all visitors to Australia require a visa. new zealanders don't need a visa to travel to australia for example.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
So? Australia requires visas for everyone.

yes,bur rhat is a formality and they offer electronic Visas.

I wonder if I could still use my old 70s multiple entry indefinately Visa, or they would re-issue that. That should then mean, the US citizens need Visa for their travels as well and hopefully they are checked in separate lines when entering Europe.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PEET7G
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
-namely the Czech republic,Hungary and Poland,try to shortcut the EEC led discussions by searching individual talks and solutions with the Americans....

It is namely because the way these countries are treated by the U.S. is a joke, no it is humiliating! We have ever growing investments in the U.S. and old fashioned era of "looking for work" type of travellers is simply over, still I bet an Iraqi with an RPG on his shoulder can enter the U.S. easier than me for instance on a simple business trip...

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
So? Australia requires visas for everyone.

That is totally different, a way simpler task and nothing humiliating in the process...
Peet7G
 
philb
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:20 pm

Fine, let the morons at Homeland Insecurity Complex have their way and watch tourism plummet - regardless of the low value of the dollar - and let's have a reciprocal need for US citizens to have visas, with personal interviews required and only available at the EU countries' D.C. embassies.

I can hear the howls of anguish now.
 
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Embajador3
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
So? Australia requires visas for everyone.

That's not the point, here we are talking about Europe and USA citizens. Australians also need visas to visit both areas.
Flying Together
 
trintocan
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:50 pm

Visa rules - always a source of conflict and one which could seriously affect air travel across the great pond.

To state things as they stand right now, the EU has a policy of harmonised entry requirements so all member countries offer visa-free entry for up to 90 days to citizens of countries on the list known as Annex 2 (eg USA, Canada, Australia, Malaysia, Brazil and soon Barbados and Antigua). Those citizens of countries on Annex 1 need visas (eg South Africa, China and now Bolivia). The UK and Eire have opted out of this and maintain their own arrangements. The EU programme forms part of the Schengen accord but while the 12 new EU members introduced the harmonised entry procedures on entry to the EU, they are not full Schengen participants as other aspects of the programme take longer to implement.

In recent years the EU has been adamant that visa-free access should be reciprocal and that all EU citizens should have such access to countries on the Annex 2. For instance, agreements have been reached with nations like Panama and Costa Rica and implementation of the visa-exemption for the 6 new Annex 2 nations (including Barbados and Antigua) will take place once similar agreements are signed. The 3 nations that the EU has identified as problematic in this regard are Australia, Canada and the USA because each has rather more individual visa requirements. In particular, many of the 12 new EU nations need visas for these countries and while there were some reciprocal visa requirements before they joined the EU, these had to be dropped on entry.

This has led to considerable lobbying by the new EU nations to get visa-free access to these countries and hence the EU campaign. More specifically, where the US is concerned the only new EU nation on the VWP is Slovenia, while Greece is NOT on the VWP list and its citizens, like those of the other 11 new EU nations, need visas. Less publicity seems to be generated by issues pertaining to Canada and Australia (in the latter, the ETA programme is accepted in lieu of totally visa-free travel because of no need to submit passport to an embassy as such and it can be arranged online but access is not yet available to all EU nations).

The argument used by the US in the past against blanket VWP access for all EU nations is that it is a popular destination for immigrants and, considering the relative poverty of some of the new EU members, it is concerned about possible illegal immigration and thus uses the visas to control its borders. Additionally, it uses certain criteria to admit nations to the programme, such as a low percentage of visa refusals and the like. Now, though, the issue of security has heightened anxiety about the programme. Specifically, the US is concerned about increased radicalism in some sectors of the Islamic communities of the EU, particularly the UK and it is concerned that individuals may travel easily to the US and spread influence there. It was reported recently that the US even wanted to impose visas on British citizens of Pakistani origin but the UK (rightly) refused - how can one really have 1 rule for some and another for others? It also leads one to ask how they would ascertain such ancestry in any case.

The US has also been trying to gather information about all people entering the country before the said passengers board their flights but this has not found favour with the EU and is hence another aspect of the visa row. That said, Spain is implementing a similar programme in the near future although the data requested may not be as much as that wanted by US authorities.

Let us all hope that some sensible agreement is reached otherwise reciprocal visas may just kill off transatlantic tourism, business and ultimately the airlines we all love.

TrinToCan.
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Glareskin
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:31 pm

I wonder if they'll accept my Visa credit card  Big grin
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trintocan
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:45 pm

Sorry Embajador3, what you said is not the case. Aussies do not need visas for Schengen nations for up to 90 days and they are participants in the US VWP so no visa needed for there either. Anyhow I do agree with you, let's stick to the bigger issue right now...

TrinToCan.
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Wsp
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans..

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 11):
Fine, let the morons at Homeland Insecurity Complex have their way and watch tourism plummet - regardless of the low value of the dollar - and let's have a reciprocal need for US citizens to have visas, with personal interviews required and only available at the EU countries' D.C. embassies.

No, there is no reason to imitate other countries bad policies. The EU benefits from US tourists and should encourage them to come here and spend their money. Instead of spending money on artificial bureaucracies the EU could increase staffing at the immigration lines so that visitors get in even quicker and have more time on their trip to drop their hard-earned cash on the European economy.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:54 pm

The US can't even process all the new passport applications of people wanting to go to Canada. How on earth are they going to process a couple million extra visa applications a year?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Department of Homeland Security is putting pressure to kill the VWP (Visa Waiver Program )

As this stupid move would bring the american tourist industry to its knees, it wont happen.

Sometimes I think that Homeland security arent good chess players.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
CV990
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:04 pm

Hi!

I think they accept VISA cards with "unlimited plafond"!!!! Type AMEX Goulllldddd!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
adriaticflight
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:11 pm

This would be a very bad move from the USA. However maybe they should do it, and i would support the EU putting visas on American citizens. Either we are going to have good and friendly relations with America or we are going to wake up and realise how they view the rest of the world - that of some scarey and horrid place. If America wants to cut itself off from the rest of the world it will only increase the anti-Americanism felt in Europe. Can anyone imagine US citizens enjoying having to apply for multiple visas to make a tour of Europe? It would be a disaster.
On the issue of treating the whole of the EU the same, well i hope that countries such as the Czech Republic continue the push for all EU members to be included in the VWP, treat us all the same (like all EU members do to US citizens) or we will get tougher.
America must realise that it operates on planet earth and that by closing itself off to the world it only makes people resent it more. Russia has a more 'fair' policy of visas. Basically if a country requires visa's for Russian citizens Russia will require a visa from that country.
 
rigo
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 10):
Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
So? Australia requires visas for everyone.

That is totally different, a way simpler task and nothing humiliating in the process...

The process is simple and fair, but on the other hand, the Australian customs officials usually tend to be the most arrogant I've ever met.
 
schipholjfk
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
US citizens need Visa for their travels as well and hopefully they are checked in separate lines when entering Europe.

Already are. EU Passport Hold and All Others line.

Stop worrying everyone... Homeland Security will NEVER get their wish. 1) Bush administration has about 600 days left in their administration and Democrats will not allow any big changes 2) This same Pres Bush has a bill in place to allow nearly 12 million illegal (mostly Mexican) residents of the U.S. to become legal residents and lastly 3) globalization has come to the point where this is all rhetoric. You can't go backwards... this is all bureaucratic talk and it will never materialize.
The fun of flying... love it !!!
 
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par13del
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:40 pm

This is another reason why I could not understand why so many person's on this site regard the Open Skies as a boon for aviation across the pond.
Since 911 we have been hearing horror stories about treatment of foreign nationals by US Dept. Of Homeland Security which led to some EU citizens not wanting to transit through the US, not wanting to provide any personal info, no pax data mining the list goes on and on, but suddenly open skies is here and all is well?
The US has border security problems, everyone recognizes that, and with the change in congress and a new president on the way, something is going to change, my guess is that it won't be same ole same ole and it won't go back to what it used to be. Democrats have in general been pushing for tighter enforcement, in ports entry, cargo etc, Republicans too but only where they deem it to not have any effect on their business interest, the game has just started and the next year is going to be real interesting, lets see if any of the presidential candidates voice their opinions. As for the decline in US tourism, the US tourist industry has not been able to get their voice heard on security issues which affect their industry, why would that change now, besides, within the US the local market is so huge that proponents use it to deflect their concerns.
Interesting times ahead.
 
zvezda
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans..

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:55 pm

The appropriate retaliation would be for the EU to require visas of US government employees. I can imagine a little tick box on the landing card: Are you an employee of the United States government?

If this passes, there will be a huge influx of europeans flying to Mexico and crossing the border -- Whitebacks.* Big grin

*: Mexicans who cross the border illegally into the States are called Wetbacks.
 
COEI2007
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 11):
Fine, let the morons at Homeland Insecurity Complex have their way and watch tourism plummet - regardless of the low value of the dollar - and let's have a reciprocal need for US citizens to have visas, with personal interviews required and only available at the EU countries' D.C. embassies.

I can hear the howls of anguish now.

Exactly! The first thing I though of was MCO! Disney etc would see a big drop in Brits and Paddy's if they needed a visa to bring the kids to see Mickey Mouse!
 
airbazar
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 19):
The US can't even process all the new passport applications of people wanting to go to Canada.

So true  rotfl 
I don't think this idea will fly here at home either. Lets not forget the visa waver program was instituted in order to close foreign consulates and cut costs. Before the VWP the US had a consulate in almost every significant city in Europe. If they want to re-institute Visas and not lose a significant number of visitors, the US will have to open new consulates all over Europe at a significant cost to the US tax payer. It will never fly.
 
IADLHR
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans..

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:12 pm

Where and how would the USA get the financial and human resources to process all the required paperwork for the visas and applicants etc. etc. etc. Congress would have to appropriate funds to handle the extra manpower etc. etc. etc. It is a horror story, of epic proportions, waiting to unfold if this indeed happens.

In the meantime, behind the scenes, I have been told the USA is pushing , quite hard, for Turkey to joint the EU. The EU is saying NO. if Turkey ever joined the EU a whole new set of interesting challenegs would be introduced.

I just cant see the Visa Waiver program being eliminated. Some how, some way, in the end, the powers that be have to understand that it is a global economy and to isolate the USA from the rest of the world, with these ideas, will drag the entire world into an economic depression that we simply will not recover from.
 
JayDub
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:17 pm

Sounds like the very-broken government entity that is Homeland Security is trying to justify their existence.

If they're so worried about people coming into the United States, perhaps they should start with worrying about those coming across the border completely undocumented, instead of the air traveller willing give up all of their personal information when they buy the ticket.   

[Edited 2007-06-02 14:21:23]
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OA260
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
yes,bur rhat is a formality and they offer electronic Visas.

Yes even I can issue Australian visas for clients in my CRS system, They just bring in their passports and I enter the info and then print it off on a piece of paper. For a US visa you call a premium cost line and then make an appointment and then have an interview and it costs $80!!! A bit of a difference between the Australian system.

Quoting Philb (Reply 10):
Fine, let the morons at Homeland Insecurity Complex have their way and watch tourism plummet

Exactly , bye bye the Airtours flights and massive amount of tourists that just wouldnt bother to go. Lots of families go to Florida and this year its hit new highs from Ireland. This would drop by at least 50% if visas were needed. People will just go to other places for their Sun holidays.....how about 14 nights in sunny Cuba !!!! LOL...

Any visa requirement must be reciprocal so visas and finger prints,credit card details must be submitted before an aircraft can take off to any EU country. All US nationals would have to get an interview at a EU embassy also. Fairs fair!!!!! Also no need to have US pre clearance at DUB and SNN anymore. Holiday over for the US officials based here in Ireland.

[Edited 2007-06-02 14:33:31]
 
PEET7G
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 15):
No, there is no reason to imitate other countries bad policies. The EU benefits from US tourists and should encourage them to come here and spend their money. Instead of spending money on artificial bureaucracies the EU could increase staffing at the immigration lines so that visitors get in even quicker and have more time on their trip to drop their hard-earned cash on the European economy.

 checkmark  I agree, and see my next comment why...

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 19):
This would be a very bad move from the USA. However maybe they should do it, and i would support the EU putting visas on American citizens. Either we are going to have good and friendly relations with America or we are going to wake up and realise how they view the rest of the world - that of some scarey and horrid place. If America wants to cut itself off from the rest of the world it will only increase the anti-Americanism felt in Europe. Can anyone imagine US citizens enjoying having to apply for multiple visas to make a tour of Europe? It would be a disaster.
On the issue of treating the whole of the EU the same, well i hope that countries such as the Czech Republic continue the push for all EU members to be included in the VWP, treat us all the same (like all EU members do to US citizens) or we will get tougher.
America must realise that it operates on planet earth and that by closing itself off to the world it only makes people resent it more. Russia has a more 'fair' policy of visas. Basically if a country requires visa's for Russian citizens Russia will require a visa from that country.

I think Wsp is absolutely right, why implement the stupid rules and cut our own fingers with a two bladed sword... If the morons want it that way, so let it be... I will continue to enter that country as minimum times as possible, and go travel somewhere else where my money is more needed, like any of the Caribbean states, or Asia or Africa. Kenya, Tanzania, Namibia are already on top of my favorite list... I can hardly think of more beautiful places to spend my vacation and spend my dope...
In the mean time let the Americans enter our countries with the biggest of ease and let them come, we will be friendly and kind to them (after all we don't have anything against the average U.S. citizens, it is not their fault that their leaders are so...  Yeah sure ) Let them enjoy the Pasta in Italy, the croissant in Paris and the Gulyas in Budapest. Come visit the breathtaking country side in Hungary and enjoy your holiday here... and of course in the mean time push the balance of trade in our direction  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign 

Quoting Rigo (Reply 21):
The process is simple and fair, but on the other hand, the Australian customs officials usually tend to be the most arrogant I've ever met.

It could be, but I was never humiliated...  Yeah sure
Peet7G
 
philb
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 15):
No, there is no reason to imitate other countries bad policies. The EU benefits from US tourists and should encourage them to come here and spend their money. Instead of spending money on artificial bureaucracies the EU could increase staffing at the immigration lines so that visitors get in even quicker and have more time on their trip to drop their hard-earned cash on the European economy.

There is some merit in the argument you make but there comes a time when money isn't everything and that time would be if this idea were to be implemented. It's about time the EU (with a bigger GDP and population than the US) stood up for itself.

The gross hypocrisy of those pushing for visas for all is amazing. Let's face it, 20 years ago the same two faced right wing morons were berating the USSR for imposing travel restrictions on their citizens and those of their satellites. The US was screaming for freedom of movement for the citizens of eastern Europe - now it not only wants to keep visas for them but impose them on the rest of us.
 
bigjku
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:33 pm

The lack of understand as to just how governments work on this forum is often astounding. This is one department of the US Government that has its whole focus on security and nothing else. Of course they want to have more security, it is their job. Not to mention the last line says the President wants some nations to qualify more quickly for the waiver program while improving its security.

This will die once state, commerce, congress and those who can lobby against it get at it. Likley it never sees the light of day outside of that statement at that congressional sub-com.

This is just like any other large entity with its various parts having their own agendas. If it were up to compliance at my commercial bank we would draw blood from every customer and have their children as collateral on loans but the other parts of the banks moderate that policy and eventually a realtivly decent consensus works its way to the top.

We could sit here and list all the stupid things said by various parts of various governments, and there are moronic statements coming out of all governments all the time, but it would really do us no good.

Some people look at a statement by a Deputy Assistant Secretary who was speaking for one division of the United States Government and seem to think that this is a policy that is on the verge of moving ahead. Honestly, people need to take a second and try and understand how government works before they go running off to spout off about how the EU should respond by doing this that or the other.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:51 pm

Don't worry people and don't get worked up.

El Dictator Bush will be out of office in just a little over a year and gone with him will be all the terrorism paranoia. Homeland Security will be restructured with the next administration and everything will be fine... just think positive.
 
bigjku
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 30):
The gross hypocrisy of those pushing for visas for all is amazing. Let's face it, 20 years ago the same two faced right wing morons were berating the USSR for imposing travel restrictions on their citizens and those of their satellites. The US was screaming for freedom of movement for the citizens of eastern Europe - now it not only wants to keep visas for them but impose them on the rest of us.

Yes, because one department of the United States government saying that they would like to consider more documentation of those visting the United States is the same thing as putting a wall through Berlin, putting landmines on the border and then watching it with machine guns. Good call, I think you have a talent for keeping things in perspective.
 
teva
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:14 pm

If the question is only getting a visa, I don't care at all.If I don't live in a capital or a city with a consulate, my travel agent can do it for me.
The only problem is the new way implemented by the USA for getting the visa. You have to go YOURSELF to the consulate. We have seen the mess it created during the implementation of the biometric passport.
For instance, French citizens from Tahiti who just wanted to visit Paris, had to fly to Australia or New Zealand to get their visa. You can imagine the extra cost!!! Especially when you realize they need this visa just because of a fuel stop.
I thought (and still hope) it was history...
That's why I hope if this stupid mesure is implemented, all the EU members will limit the delivery of the visa to their embassies in Washington, and with the same restrictions (ie you have to go yourself) , so that the American people realize the pain their administration is creating, and they can lobby to come back to the current situation.

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
PanHAM
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 21):

Already are. EU Passport Hold and All Others line.

not really, Bad habit in Frankfurt and other gateways in Germany has it that people just line up everywhere and our stupid immigration officers do not send them back to the proper line. Making EU citizens wait longer than they actually have to.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
28thguy
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:31 pm

Actually it's my understanding (from reading various articles here in the U.S.) that Homeland's Security is not about Eastern European ("new member") countries and potential for more economically-driven illegal immigrants.

Rather, behind the scenes, they want to eliminate visa-waiver program for a certain sub-group of British citizens (i.e. those of Pakistani origin) given terrorism concerns. Basically they want the British authorities to share intelligence data and require a visa for individuals on some sort of "watchlist" or of certain origin. Unclear if these concerns also extend to Muslims from other European nations.

I put a low probability on this happening unless there is another major terrorist attack in the U.S. Also, as others have noted, Bush is a lame duck at this point.
 
philb
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RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 31):
Some people look at a statement by a Deputy Assistant Secretary who was speaking for one division of the United States Government and seem to think that this is a policy that is on the verge of moving ahead. Honestly, people need to take a second and try and understand how government works before they go running off to spout off about how the EU should respond by doing this that or the other.

Long before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye I worked in government for a period as a reasonably senior official. I've also dealt with governments worldwide up to the level of various world leaders as well as being politically active in a party in the UK for a period. I was always taught that, when you speak as an official, you speak for your department and your government, therefore be very careful in what you say.

Now we all know that ministers and departmental officials are very good at making statements that stir the pot. In the days when there wasn't instant electronic media, that was all well and good. Today things are different and any statement is on rolling news within minutes and can do great damage if not carefully thought through.

In this instance my guess, given the stance of the US on security in general, is this is a carefully positioned statement to test reaction at all levels of government and commerce in Europe and is intended to be an indication of what the government would really like to do if it could get away with it.
 
westindian425
Posts: 729
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:46 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:34 pm

I find it strange if this is true with all the progress on the Open Skies front.
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 2993
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 19):
and i would support the EU putting visas on American citizens.

That would be bad. That would mean I'd need a VISA no matter what. Being as I have an American and a Swiss Passport, I can use my American one to go out of and into the USA, and my Swiss one within Europe. If American citizens needed visas I'd have to have one no matter what, since I can't leave the US with my Swiss passport and then come back two weeks later with my American one.

TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 33):
Yes, because one department of the United States government saying that they would like to consider more documentation of those visting the United States is the same thing as putting a wall through Berlin, putting landmines on the border and then watching it with machine guns. Good call, I think you have a talent for keeping things in perspective.

It's you who lack perspective. If you had lived as a child, then a teenager, then an adult through the whole of the Cold War as I did you would know just how much your country banged on about freedom of movement and not restricting personal freedom with big brother bureaucracy.
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 10):
Fine, let the morons at Homeland Insecurity Complex have their way and watch tourism plummet - regardless of the low value of the dollar - and let's have a reciprocal need for US citizens to have visas, with personal interviews required and only available at the EU countries' D.C. embassies.

That's exactely what I was thinking about!
Flying is amazing!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 16):
The US can't even process all the new passport applications of people wanting to go to Canada. How on earth are they going to process a couple million extra visa applications a year?

 checkmark 

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
As this stupid move would bring the american tourist industry to its knees, it wont happen

 checkmark 

Quoting Adriaticflight (Reply 19):
This would be a very bad move from the USA

 checkmark 

Homeland Security, is nothing more than the Homeland Joke. A perfect example is Mr. Speaker, the TB infested moron that just re-entered the United States via a US border crossing with Canada. Homeland Security cant even get their day to day operations straight. How are they to deal with millions of European Visa Applications per year? This whole deal smells like the Republicans all over it. I have a strong feeling that this well -never- happen. If it did the US airline industry, and the US tourism industry would plummet. We only have about 600? more days of this nonsense to deal with.  thumbsup 

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 40):
It's you who lack perspective. If you had lived as a child, then a teenager, then an adult through the whole of the Cold War as I did you would know just how much your country banged on about freedom of movement and not restricting personal freedom with big brother bureaucracy.

Again, paperwork restrictions are slightly different than walls, machine guns and landmines don't you think? While I certainly did not live through the majority of the Cold War it was more than a passing fad while I was around and I have studied it extensivly. I think there is a minor difference between the Berlin Wall, the level of border security and restrictions on travel within the Soviet Union and the idea that the US might necessitate Visas for those who want to come here. Perhapse I am wrong but I doubt anyone is going to be shot, blown up, entangled in razor wire or even really prevented from getting where they are going if this policy was ever put in place.

Sorry but statements likening the wrongs that US conservatives spoke out of regarding Communisms manic desire to control people at all cost and a statement by the US government that it might put in place rules necessitating more paperwork get put in the same place as those that compare Bush to Hitler or Stalin, they lack perspective on what exactly is going on.

Quoting Philb (Reply 37):
I was always taught that, when you speak as an official, you speak for your department and your government, therefore be very careful in what you say.

You are of course right, and I have no doubt that homeland security would very much like to go after a policy like this. Way too much credit and importance is being given to a position taken by one department of the US Government. I have no doubt that this person and that department are behind that policy 100%. Then again there are other departments in other governments and in the US government that have equally stupid ideas and spout off about them all the time. Hell the French have a whole Ministry dedicated to protecting their culture from evil American movies and other influences. Government officers, departments and even heads of state say stupid stuff all the time. If and when it becomes a law then get upset about it. Heck, when it goes to the floor of congress get upset. It won't so its not really worth all the crying going on here about it.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14559
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:04 am

I live in an area in New Jersey with a large immigrant and visiting Polish population. I wouldn't doubt that hundreds that came under the VWP have overstayed their allocated time, are working illegally (albeit in jobs many 'Americans' won't do or for the pay employers offer) and don't plan to go back anytime soon as have limited opportunities back home. People from Poland as I have seen are a good example for questioning the continuation of the VWP.
Perhaps what could be used for travel between the USA (and Canada) and VWP nations, would be require that someone entering the country have a prepaid and reserved aircraft or ship ticket for their return as well as sufficient cash or credit or access to bank accounts to pay for their stay. If one overstays their VWP time unless due to a legitimate reason - illness, caring for an ill relative, family emergency, inability of or delay by a carrier to transport the passenger for examples - they would have to pay a fine of something like $50 per day to the country they overstayed in, and could be collected upon return to their home country. We also must allow local police to detain for ICE processing any overstaying person who is stopped by police for a moving violation or busted for a crime.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 32):
El Dictator Bush will be out of office in just a little over a year and gone with him will be all the terrorism paranoia

Dictators have the bad habit of not leavng office voluntarily. Democracy works in the US and the Republican Bush is a democrat. Checks and balances is exactly what may eventually kill the intention of the Department of Homeland Security to force Visa's on all visitors. The State Department has a word to say and if the majority of European countries retaliate by requiring Visa's for US citizens as well, the case is dead anyway.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15055
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:18 am

You people make me laugh. Look beyond your "convenience" and understand it's a new world that we live in and that soon, VISAs will be required to travel just about anywhere.

There are valid reasons for this idea. Not to say it's the best or right idea, but it's also not hairbrained. Consider the VISA waiver program an experiment. DHS believes this experiment is a failure. I tend to agree with some of their points.

I've never in my life had a problem getting a VISA for where I want to go. Why are so many people so worried about it? Are they worried that they will be denied for some reason? If so, what is the reason?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
yes,bur rhat is a formality and they offer electronic Visas.

And so could the USA. What a VISA does is create a current check for the system BEFORE travel. Passports are issued over periods of years (in the USA, it's 10) and things change. They are also easily forged. VISAs are current, and are harder to forge. Further, they can flag who can't fly before tickets are even issued.

Passports are issued by home countries. VISAs are issued by the country one is visiting. This gives the country one is visiting the control of it's borders and the checks upon who enters (and makes it harder to enter on a fake passport). It's not rocket science.

And don't give me the "tourism will suffer" bunk. Australia has been doing it the whole time and their tourist industry just grows and grows and grows.

In the USA, for every EU citizen who doesn't travel to the USA due to a VISA requirement there will be a USA citizen who doesn't travel to the EU for the same reason. They both spend their money at home. Life goes on...

Quoting Par13del (Reply 22):
Of Homeland Security which led to some EU citizens not wanting to transit through the US, not wanting to provide any personal info, no pax data mining the list goes on and on, but suddenly open skies is here and all is well?

We don't care about transiting pax. We really, really don't. We are not London or Paris or Hamburg or Singapore. For most destinations, we are the end of the line, not a waypoint. Our airports are not set up for transiting pax. CO and AA are not losing a ton of sleep over the few passengers who are afraid to apply for a visa to transit between the EU and Mexico.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 26):
Where and how would the USA get the financial and human resources to process all the required paperwork for the visas and applicants etc. etc. etc.

That's a big question. They are already WAY behind on the passport front, and that won't improve for years without more funding. Don't have any idea how they will process the millions upon millions of EU pax wanting visas.

Quoting JayDub (Reply 27):
Sounds like the very-broken government entity that is Homeland Security is trying to justify their existence.

No, they are proposing a way to make doing their job easier. It may or may not come to pass, but we know, for a fact, that some terrorists arrived in the USA from the EU due to lack of VISA requirements.

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 36):
Rather, behind the scenes, they want to eliminate visa-waiver program for a certain sub-group of British citizens (i.e. those of Pakistani origin) given terrorism concerns.

I'm surprised it took reply 36 before someone saw the point.

The EU has lost control of who they have allowed in. France, Germany, England all have very large radical communities, and they have EU passports. It's the same reason we in the USA have started to require passports to/from Canada and Mexico, and will expand that to entry/exit via auto as well as plane.

I love how everyone gets so high and mighty about the USA trying to prevent other countries from freely exporting their problems to us. And it's not just terrorists, but illegal immigration. Having VISA requirements means that it's easier to track (in theory) those who have overstayed.

I would absolutely expect the EU to require the same in return. I'm willing to live with that.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
Being as I have an American and a Swiss Passport, I can use my American one to go out of and into the USA, and my Swiss one within Europe.

And that is the other problem we are trying to correct. Multiple passports means people leave one country and 'disappear' into the ether, entering another country as another person. My friend has Aussi, UK and USA passports due to birth, and he does this routinely. And criminal types do this routinely too. It's one of the hardest things to track, and requiring a VISA would help plug that hole.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 44):
I wouldn't doubt that hundreds that came under the VWP have overstayed their allocated time, are working illegally (albeit in jobs many 'Americans' won't do or for the pay employers offer) and don't plan to go back anytime soon as have limited opportunities back home.

I live here in New York City and I can tell you that it is not just the Polish population. All of the dog walkers here in New York are for the most part Brazilian. They I can tell you are all working under the table and they are allowed to continue doing their daily job. They make about $9-$12 an hour and it is tax free. These are undocumented workers by the way. The problem is even worse when you go into places like Astoria, and Jackson Heights. Those areas are filled to the brim with people that have overstayed their Visas and have zero intentions of going back home. In addition these people have little or no intentions of meshing into the American society as a whole. They want to make their money, send money home and that is their intention since they arrive. And yes I have a number of Brazilian, Peruvian, Russian, and other friends that are here on expired Visas.

The problem is that the US cannot just come out and say they are going to change the VWP. If it does happen the workforce in areas like Queens, Brooklyn, New York City, and others will become baron. It is these people who are doing the jobs that many Americans will not and are not willing to do. I have felt for years that the people who live on welfare and sit at home collecting subsidies should be forced to get out and work for their welfare check. That wont happen because someone or another will start complaining that it is forced labour. The whole situation is a mess.

However, dont forget there is a place called Ellis Island and it stands for immigration. True these new people haven't immigrated the way my ancestors have(and my ancestors names can be found at Ellis Island on the plagues), however it is a sign of the times. We have so many jobs to fill, and so many people we need to fill them with.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
pfletch1228
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:45 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:31 am

I dont know what the big deal is. ZA citizens have always required Visas for the US. You simply book an appointment online, go the consulate on said day, answer some questions, fill in some forms, and in a couple of days time your passport is couried back to you with a 10 year B1/B2 multiple entry Visa stamped in it (provided of course your don't present yourself as a flight risk). You also process a hell of a lot quicker on arrival in the US. Shengan Visas are another story... You wait weeks, you get treated like crap at the consulates, they are only valid for 3 months, and for regular business travellers to the EU are a right pain in the ass. They are also very expensive. My only annoyance with the whole setup is that their is no reciprocity between the EU and ZA - EU citizens (and US and Aus Citizens) dont require a visa to enter ZA...
War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Homeland Security Wants Visas From Europeans...

Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 43):
Again, paperwork restrictions are slightly different than walls, machine guns and landmines don't you think?

Not when they can have exactly the same effect. Demanding that a family of 6 travel to an embassy for visa interview from far flung corners of a country can stop a trip just as effectively as walls, mines and guns.

Talking of walls and guns, not to mention spotter planes and dogs, have you ever been to the border just south of San Diego?

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 43):
I have studied it extensivly

I've studied the US Civil War intensively, been to almost all the major battlefields and other historic sites, read all the learned tomes - doesn't mean I have anything other than a view on what it was like to live through it.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 43):
those that compare Bush to Hitler or Stalin, they lack perspective on what exactly is going on

Don't recall that appearing anywhere in the thread. What have you to be so defensive about?

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