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Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:30 am

"TOULOUSE, France, June 4 (Reuters) - Airbus on Monday dismissed reports it plans a radical change to the way it intends to build the A350 as it disclosed a production schedule for the future mid-sized, long-haul aircraft.

Air Transport World Online reported recently that the European planemaker planned to shift to an all-composite barrel design for the fuselage to help reduce cost.

That would mean bowing to a manufacturing formula chosen by Boeing for its 787 Dreamliner, which is due to enter service in 2008 and which for the time being is dominating the market for a new generation of fuel-saving airliner.

But Gordon McConnell, chief engineer for the A350, said Airbus was sticking with plans to build the jet out of frames made of similar lightweight composite materials."

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...8-35_B420167&type=comktNews&rpc=44
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:36 am

Then the A350 is at serious risk, and this is not overstated.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):
Then the A350 is at serious risk, and this is not overstated.

Huh?
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Huh?

Exactly which part wasn't clear?
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Beaucaire
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):
Then the A350 is at serious risk, and this is not overstated.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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MCIGuy
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):

I guess we'll see in about 10 years.  Wink

All it takes is the perception that the A350 isn't as high-tech as the 787.  Wink
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krisyyz
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:03 am

Um, why is Airbus still in such an early stage of development for the A350? They’re still finalizing the materials to be used on the A350 and aggressively marketing the plane at the same time. So what are they telling potential buyers? Can they still meet all their performance guarantees with the new material and manufacturing techniques?

KrisYYZ
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Huh?

Exactly which part wasn't clear?

Everything you said, feel free to elaborate. (i'm not being sarcastic, I dont fully understand what you meant).
 
dvautier
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:07 am

I think they are waiting for the Paris Air Show to announce a new and radically improved concept for the A350—barrels!
 
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teme82
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):
Then the A350 is at serious risk, and this is not overstated.

Share some light to this view of yours please....
Flying high and low
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Dvautier (Reply 8):
I think they are waiting for the Paris Air Show to announce a new and radically improved concept for the A350---barrels!

If they were intending to do this, wouldn't they be very foolish to deny it only a few weeks prior?
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
Everything you said, feel free to elaborate. (i'm not being sarcastic, I dont fully understand what you meant).

Oh, sorry.  footinmouth  embarrassed 

Airline decision makers know a lot about airplanes, but not as much as engineers. While the A350 will probably be a fine airplane and may very well be on par with the 787, the perception to the layperson might be that it doesn't pack as much technology as the 787, whether it does or not. One of the tings that was drummed into my head while working for big business is that "perception is everything".  Smile
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teva
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:13 am

MCIguy, did you read the article?
Not using the same technology doesn't mean using outdated technology. It just means taking a different approach.
future will tell which direction is the best.
If the A350 meets the expectations, for the price announced, I don't see why airlines wouldn't buy it.
Teva
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Wsp
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
All it takes is the perception that the A350 isn't as high-tech as the 787. Wink

I can only imagine the uproar that would ensue if airlines were to find out that the 737 doesn't have FBW...
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 1):
Then the A350 is at serious risk, and this is not overstated.

Whether I disagree with you or not depends on what you mean by that exactly; technically, how will this risk the structure over time, fatigue?
Work Hard/Fly Right.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Teva (Reply 12):

I agree with you! The thing is, everyone might not see it like you and I do.  Smile

I love your sandals, BTW.  Silly
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Scorpio
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
Airline decision makers know a lot about airplanes, but not as much as engineers. While the A350 will probably be a fine airplane and may very well be on par with the 787, the perception to the layperson might be that it doesn't pack as much technology as the 787, whether it does or not. One of the tings that was drummed into my head while working for big business is that "perception is everything".

Using that logic, how do you explain the 737NG, perceived to be "packing less technology" as the A320, still holding its own just fine against the latter?
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
All it takes is the perception that the A350 isn't as high-tech as the 787.

When you say 'high tech' what exactly do you mean? Just because something is built out of a certain material it doesn't necessarily mean it's better or worse than the competition. Do you really think Airbus will build an aircraft not as good as the 787? I don't think so. What would be the point?

D.
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):

I'm not sure that's a valid comparison, considering both planes use basically the exact same technology. Also, think some of the sales numbers are due to market dynamics. The A320, being the newer design, probably lost sales to the 737NG simply because of it's backlog.  Smile
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SEPilot
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:21 am

I suspect that this was a management decision based on time and money; Airbus knows how to build panels and probably does not need to invest in any major equipment to do so, or spend a lot of time developing the processes. From what I have read here I have gotten the impression that the engineers all wanted to go to barrels, but management vetoed it. If this is the case it is understandable due to the financial problems created by the A380 and the widespread impression (voiced by John Leahy) that the 787 caught them napping and therefore they need an answer quickly, even if it is not the best they can do. This is reinforced by their previous attempts to present a warmed-over A330. As an engineer myself I am totally convinced that barrels is a much better way to go, and I believe Airbus will come to regret this decision. Boeing does not have to work very hard at all to convince the airlines that they have a better plane, and I don't think that will change, which will result in the A350 struggling for orders throughout its life, and basically getting only those from airlines that don't like Boeing or that have political motives from buying Airbus, or that Boeing can't meet their delivery requirements (which won't be happening for quite a while due to Boeing's head start.) The larger size of the A350 will help it in the short run (when the -10 comes out) and will impact 773 sales (the 787 will also impact 772 sales) but if anyone thinks that Boeing will sit on their laurels they can buy a bridge in Brooklyn from me. Y3 will be launched before the A350 will have been in production for very long, which will then give Boeing two superior models sandwiching the A350. I know many on this forum have argued (and with some justification) that the barrels are not THAT much better than panels, but any one I know with any engineering knowledge has a hard time being convinced of that. The same is happening with the airlines; the order books speak for themselves. The only situation I can see that will change that is if some major problems appear with the 787 or if by some miraculous occurrence the A350 outperforms the 787 by a considerable margin. I don't regard either one as likely.

[Edited 2007-06-04 22:31:13]
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
the perception to the layperson might be that it doesn't pack as much technology as the 787

If that's the case, then when the average layperson starts buying 787s, Airbus will have a problem. wink 
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EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 16):
Using that logic, how do you explain the 737NG, perceived to be "packing less technology" as the A320, still holding its own just fine against the latter?

At the end of the day, it comes down to operating costs. Both with the 737/A320 and with the 787/A350. Unless the 787 has lower operating costs then the Barrel argument is a superficial one.

[Edited 2007-06-04 22:26:46]
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 15):

I'm not sure what exactly your trying to get at, though you may have a very valid point.

The only disadvantage that I can really see with this is that surely the panels will have to include the use of rivets and such. If I recall correctly, a saving of 1.5% can be saved on fuel on the 787 as it is free from microdrag caused by rivets and whatever else they'll apply them on with, which is significant in terms of the flights the 787 will be making, and the longevity of a 787's life.

Is there anyway that airbus has gotten round this, if not is there anyway it can?

By the way, if the 787 gets damaged, you can't really take any panel off, where as with the A350, you could, how would airlines get round this, even though it is unlikely the body would get damaged anyway (CFCP)?

[Edited 2007-06-04 22:29:33]
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columba
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
Airline decision makers know a lot about airplanes, but not as much as engineers.

But there are many engineers involved in the airline's decision to buy an airplane.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 22):
The only disadvantage that I can really see with this is that surely the panels will have to include the use of rivets and such.

while the A350 plan will surely have more rivets than the 787, compared to the old fashioned small metal panels (as opposed to the huge panels Airbus are talking about) the number of rivets in a A350 must be minimal.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 22):
If I recall correctly, a saving of 1.5% can be saved on fuel on the 787 as it is free from microdrag caused by rivets and whatever else they'll apply them on with, which is significant in terms of the flights the 787 will be making, and the longevity of a 787's life.

Its also worth taking into account how many seams & rivets there will be on the A350, compared to conventional alu panel fuselages, compared to the 787 barrels.
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
that the engineers all wanted to go to barrels, but management vetoed it

A.net gossip without sources. IIRC Aminobwana told that story.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
As an engineer myself I am totally convinced that barrels is a much better way to go, and I believe Airbus will come to regret this decision.

What is your opinion, as an engineer, on the differences in wing construction between A350 and 787? Aren't the 787 wing structures mostly metallic?
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 24):
the number of rivets in a A350 must be minimal.

So drag on this level wouldn't really count, fair enough.
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SEPilot
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 22):
By the way, if the 787 gets damaged, you can't really take any panel off, where as with the A350, you could, how would airlines get round this, even though it is unlikely the body would get damaged anyway (CFCP)?

This is a totally bogus argument, as both the panels and the barrels will be far too large to be easily removed, and either one would require pretty massive disassembly in any case. Both will have to be repaired in place by the same methods.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Both will have to be repaired in place by the same methods.

So how would they repair it then?
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Scorpio
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 18):
I'm not sure that's a valid comparison, considering both planes use basically the exact same technology.

Never knew the 737NG had FBW.

Anyway, the same thing about both using very similar technology is also valid for the 787 / A350 comparison. Hell, the fact it had considerably less composites than the A310 / A300-600 never stopped the 767 from becoming a hot seller, or the 777 against the A330/340.

As others have already said, the airlines won't choose based on which one 'is perceived to have the most technology', they'll choose based on operating economics, price, etc. The plane being 'perceived to have the most technology' will be on their priorities list somewhere close to the size of the toilet bowls.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 24):
while the A350 plan will surely have more rivets than the 787, compared to the old fashioned small metal panels (as opposed to the huge panels Airbus are talking about) the number of rivets in a A350 must be minimal.

As I said above, surely the seams between barrels (are there?) and between panels are also a source of drag, although less so with the lateral seams.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 22):
By the way, if the 787 gets damaged, you can't really take any panel off, where as with the A350, you could, how would airlines get round this, even though it is unlikely the body would get damaged anyway (CFCP)?

This is a totally bogus argument, as both the panels and the barrels will be far too large to be easily removed, and either one would require pretty massive disassembly in any case. Both will have to be repaired in place by the same methods.

I believe this is true. While it may be slightly easier to remove an A350 panel, they are too big to remove easily. It appears that both methods will be using patch repairs.
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
What is your opinion, as an engineer, on the differences in wing construction between A350 and 787? Aren't the 787 wing structures mostly metallic?

That's the second time this question has popped up on the forum this week and I definitely would like to have an answer to it this time.

Does the 787 have an all composite wing or not, and if so, just how 'monolithic' is it going to be, compared to the entirely composite wing of the A350?

[Edited 2007-06-04 22:47:18]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 29):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Both will have to be repaired in place by the same methods.

So how would they repair it then?

This is something I ask myself as well. If e.g. a ramp truck hits a conventional plane, you can in most cases cut the damage out and perform a sheet metal repair in situ.
Non-load bearing composite parts can be patched up with speed tape or a localised hot bonding repair carried out using a hotbonding kit. Other, load bearing parts, like rudders or elevators can be replaced.
Now as far as I understand, the barrel structure of the 787 is a highly stressed advanced composite, depending largely on the layup of the carbon fibers for strength. Now if the damage cuts the load path at any spot, how will you do a field repair?

Jan
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sphealey
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:53 am

> Now if the damage cuts the load path at any spot,
> how will you do a field repair?

What we don't know, and what Boeing isn't going to tell us, is what it takes to "cut the load path". The only publicly-documented large-scale composite barrel accident involved a Beech Starship runway overrun. The result was a number of navigational aids, vehicles, and hanger walls demolished but zero damage to the Starship's fuselage.

Now I would guess that since the Starship was a much small diameter than the 787 will be it was stronger per unit size. And it may have been over-engineered more than a commercial airliner will be. But the question is still there: with what force does the catering truck have to hit the 787 barrel to cause any damage? And again Boeing isn't going to tell us.

sPh
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
What is your opinion, as an engineer, on the differences in wing construction between A350 and 787? Aren't the 787 wing structures mostly metallic?

I do not know; my impression was that the 787 wing was largely CFRP. If not, I am surprised that the A350, which I understand has an almost completely CFRP wing has not gained more traction.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:55 am

AFAIK the 787 wing has monolithic CFRP skins with integral co-bonded stringers, CFRP C-section front and rear spars, and machined aluminum ribs. Ditto for the A350XWB, so no use in starting an A vs B mudfight over wing materials  Wink
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
All it takes is the perception that the A350 isn't as high-tech as the 787

The Airlines perception will be based on numbers, and guaranteed numbers in particular.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
Airline decision makers know a lot about airplanes, but not as much as engineers. While the A350 will probably be a fine airplane and may very well be on par with the 787

In which case the airlines have an enviable choice deciding between the numbers

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
Boeing does not have to work very hard at all to convince the airlines that they have a better plane

I can only refer back to my comments above.

Regards
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
as far as I understand, the barrel structure of the 787 is a highly stressed advanced composite, depending largely on the layup of the carbon fibers for strength.

I think that is one of the misconceptions on the 787 spread on a.net.

As far as I have understood it, the 787 barrels are only semi-load-brearing structures and are therefor still fitted onto a frame, just like the shell approach of Airbus.

Obviously there are no longitudinal joints to be found on the 787 as there will be on the A350, since the composite sections of the fuselage are spun in one piece iso made up of 4 shells like on the A350, however in return, there are a lot more circumferencial joints needed on the 787 than on the A350 as the length of the barrels used to make the fuselage of the 787 is shorter than on the fuselage segments of the A350.

Both are however fitted onto a supportive frame....
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 35):
Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
What is your opinion, as an engineer, on the differences in wing construction between A350 and 787? Aren't the 787 wing structures mostly metallic?

I do not know; my impression was that the 787 wing was largely CFRP. If not, I am surprised that the A350, which I understand has an almost completely CFRP wing has not gained more traction.

Another thing that I have not seen mentioned regarding the A350 - There was originally a lot of ambiguity towards the 787s wings, the conductive properties of composites, and lightening. How will this affect the A350, if it will have an even higher composite content in its wing that the 787?
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 32):
Does the 787 have an all composite wing or not, and if so, just how 'monolithic' is it going to be, compared to the entirely composite wing of the A350?

From the Seattle Times (Fair use extract):

"Unlike a conventional aluminum wing, this one has upper and lower skins of carbon-fiber reinforced plastic that are molded as single pieces and cured to hardness in a high-pressure oven.

The same material forms the strengthening rods inside the skins that stiffen them, and the long spars that run the length of the wing at the front and rear.

The ribs forming an internal ladderlike lattice between the skins are each machined from a single aluminum block."
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Now if the damage cuts the load path at any spot, how will you do a field repair?

Boeing has found a way, even if they're not telling us yet.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 38):
Both are however fitted onto a supportive frame....

I do not believe this to be the case; it is entirely unnecessary. The 787 has composite hoops inside the barrels and stringers built in; these will provide all the structure necessary. The joints between barrel sections are the easiest kind to make rigid and airtight.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 36):
AFAIK the 787 wing has monolithic CFRP skins with integral co-bonded stringers, CFRP C-section front and rear spars, and machined aluminum ribs.

So not completely composite then indeed.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 36):
Ditto for the A350XWB


Can't remember we have seen any detailed information on the new A350XWB wing which airbus started shaping after they went XWB, nor the way it will be made, other than the claim it will be entirely composite.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 36):
so no use in starting an A vs B mud fight over wing materials.

No mud fight intended, just a comparison of the wings, their structures and building method.

What is interesting for the fuselage, is interesting for the wing too I'd say.

Looks like some are a bit all too eager to get rid of this item of discussion asa, and Boeing too hasn't been very vocal about any revolutionary wing design which we logically might have expected either, contrary to their high talking of the fuselage...

[Edited 2007-06-04 23:20:34]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Wsp (Reply 26):
Aren't the 787 wing structures mostly metallic?



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 32):
Does the 787 have an all composite wing or not, and if so, just how 'monolithic' is it going to be, compared to the entirely composite wing of the A350?

I think the 787 wing is "mostly" composite.

http://defence-data.com/f2006/pagefa1015.htm

Quote:
The upper and lower surface panels and the spars of the wing are made entirely of the same composite material being used on the fuselage. The wing ribs are monolithic aluminium structures, each machined from a single piece of aluminium plate.

Is the A350's wing "entirely composite"?

Given the "more" composite nature of the 787's fuselage and the fact that both planes are in the same ball-park % composites, I suspect the A350's wing must be "more" composite than the 787's.
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:21 am

The issue of the wings seems to be whether the ribs are aluminum or composite on the A350; it seems that they are aluminum on the 787. Anyone know why Boeing did not make them composite? I assume that there is a reason.
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 42):
I do not believe this to be the case; it is entirely unnecessary. The 787 has composite hoops inside the barrels and stringers built in; these will provide all the structure necessary. The joints between barrel sections are the easiest kind to make rigid and airtight.

I haven't seen the hoops in any photographs of the barrels. It looks to me like only the stringers are part of the CFRP monolith, and that frames are added later. Heck, in the photographs floating around on the web, the frames look like metal!
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 46):

I haven't seen the hoops in any photographs of the barrels. It looks to me like only the stringers are part of the CFRP monolith, and that frames are added later. Heck, in the photographs floating around on the web, the frames look like metal!

As I understand it they are added in later. Other posters have confirmed that they are composite.
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:30 am

Comparing fuselages is more interesting...

Looks like Boeing dropped the idea having a barrel splice across cabin windows, like tested with the demo barrels

Big version: Width: 550 Height: 560 File size: 98kb


If you look closely at the latest renditions of the 787, e.g. on page 52/53 of the Powerpoint published at the recent investor conference you will note that it seems there's a window missing where section 41 joins with section 43 (ahead of door 2), and where section 47 joins with section 48 (5th window ahead of door 4).

http://www.corporate-ir.net/media_fi....07/Boeing%20Complete-FINAL-R2.pdf

Please correct me if I'm wrong?!
 
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RE: Airbus Sticks With Panels For The A350

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 42):
The 787 has composite hoops inside the barrels and stringers built in; these will provide all the structure necessary.

Wasn't this "myth" largely debunked in a recent thread?

The 787's fuselage barrels do need frames (or hoops as you're calling them) to provide rigidity and strength - most are composite, but I believe some are titanium. These are separate items that are added after the fuselage barrel is made, and are then riveted (sorry, fastened) in place. This leads to the somewhat surprising images of a 787 fuselage section riddled with fasteners, much to the surprise of many who thought the fuselage sections would be huge smooth pieces of "unadulterated" CFRP.

http://www.niar.wichita.edu/media/pd.../nationalpublication/July26_06.pdf

Quote:
However, fuselage frames for the 787 are being manufactured using RFI and preforms but cure will be under autoclave rather than vacuum bag pressure. The shape complexity and braiding reinforcement allows curved tows to be used and hence weight reduced. The frame is not highly loaded and so reduced strength from braid reinforcement is not an issue.
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