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YVRLTN
Topic Author
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

Harmony Update

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:49 am

The last Harmony thread is already archived and cant be replied to.

Latest news is that GMYC & GMYD have been sold to an American company for part out!! I understand this will produce a significant amount of cash to help balance the books, but to me its almost criminal to let two perfectly good and not that old aircraft end up like this, specially with FX on the hunt for 90 frames etc etc.

GMYE is going to YLW for storage as planned. Doesnt look good for any HQ re-start IMO...
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pacifica
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 4:56 am

RE: Harmony Update

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:18 am

It's a sad story of Canadian aviation and North American aviation as a whole.

Over the past few years, service in general has declined and although I was never able to fly Harmony (seeing as I rarely travel to Vancouver, and live in Toronto...), I have heard many great things about them. Free hot meals in coach, free wine with meals, friendly customer service and the most legroom in business, it all seemed like a fresh start. Something innovative at least, and it sort of reminded me of the good 'ole days of flying everyone seems to talk about. And their prices seemed to be very reasonable too, at least the few times I looked them up.

But I guess even with that, their low exposure and small size deferred a lot of travellers. Or was it the absence of personal televisions for WestJetters, or the lack of precious (and IMO somewhat useless; but that's for another thread  Wink ) Aeroplan miles for the AC die hards? Either way something didn't work right for Harmony, and it's most unfortunate because in a day and age where airlines are constantly cutting costs in every way they can, it seemed like HQ brought something fresh and creative to the market. But I digress, because the consumer is in the end the best judge of everything.

Just my few cents anyways.
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: Harmony Update

Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting Pacifica (Reply 1):
It's a sad story of Canadian aviation and North American aviation as a whole.

Over the past few years, service in general has declined and although I was never able to fly Harmony (seeing as I rarely travel to Vancouver, and live in Toronto...), I have heard many great things about them. Free hot meals in coach, free wine with meals, friendly customer service and the most legroom in business, it all seemed like a fresh start. Something innovative at least, and it sort of reminded me of the good 'ole days of flying everyone seems to talk about. And their prices seemed to be very reasonable too, at least the few times I looked them up.

But I guess even with that, their low exposure and small size deferred a lot of travellers. Or was it the absence of personal televisions for WestJetters, or the lack of precious (and IMO somewhat useless; but that's for another thread   ) Aeroplan miles for the AC die hards? Either way something didn't work right for Harmony, and it's most unfortunate because in a day and age where airlines are constantly cutting costs in every way they can, it seemed like HQ brought something fresh and creative to the market. But I digress, because the consumer is in the end the best judge of everything.

Just my few cents anyways.

Innovative is one thing, but if you can't make money because all of that innovation is pushing up your costs, there is nothing innovative about it. It's just a flat-out dumb business plan. We all know why Harmony didn't fold after a month. Ho was bankrolling it out of his own pocket to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. Any idiot can lose money like that. Don't blame PTVs or Aeroplan points. The concept was nice but not practical, and in the end the business plan was DOA.
 
pacifica
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 4:56 am

RE: Harmony Update

Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 2):
Innovative is one thing, but if you can't make money because all of that innovation is pushing up your costs, there is nothing innovative about it. It's just a flat-out dumb business plan. We all know why Harmony didn't fold after a month. Ho was bankrolling it out of his own pocket to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. Any idiot can lose money like that. Don't blame PTVs or Aeroplan points. The concept was nice but not practical, and in the end the business plan was DOA.

There is nothing wrong with high costs as long as you have high revenue streams to support them (as in any high quality business). From what I've heard and seen (correct me if I'm wrong), Harmony Airways was designed to be profitable with higher load factors, and what led to their downfall was the exact opposite: low load factors. Now whether these low load factors were caused by a lack of marketing, constant pressure from WS and AC, or other factors...we will probably never know exactly and could debate about it all night low.

But the fact is Harmony WAS an innovative business, and they showed an energetic and spontaneous side that is quite frankly few-and-far between in today's industry. Sure, they might have put some of that effort in the wrong direction and were probably slightly misguided in the way they planned to achieve their profitability (ex. lack of marketing?), but nonetheless they were something different and original. And it is my humble opinion that if they had only marketed their product a little stronger that they could have hooked passengers on their quality product and achieve the high load factors that they required for success.

Nonetheless, we could argue all night long about why Harmony Airways failed in the end. But as they say, what's done is done. All we can do is learn from what has happened. And I know that the Canadian aviation industry has just seen the loss of one of the few truly high quality airlines left in the Western Hemisphere.
 
SkydrolBoy
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:31 am

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:00 am

CGMYC and CGMYE are both in YLW right now for storage....
 
YVRLTN
Topic Author
Posts: 2348
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 pm

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:00 am

I have never flown with HQ but have never heard anything other than good words about their service.

What I find crazy is how 757's can be broken up - with FX wanting 90, UPS want them, CO want them, UK charter airlines want them - Jet2 specially... these arent exactly the oldest ex BA and EA aircraft.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Pacifica (Reply 1):
I was never able to fly Harmony



Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
I have never flown with HQ



Quoting Pacifica (Reply 3):
what led to their downfall was the exact opposite: low load factors.

That just goes to show you, they were not offering what the Customer was looking for, period. Bottom line is just that ... bottom line. The number one deciding factor is price and nothing else. In a flash on September 11th, the high yield, high revenue passenger disappeared.

Remember him? He was the one that was actually paying for the perks that are no longer offered by airlines, so that you could fly from YYZ-YVR for $99.

I don't know how many times I have read on this website, people bragging about the low fare they "scored" then asking for advice on how to get upgraded to a higher class. Lets face it, First Class and Business Class have a price. So does a no frills seat from A to B. One can't pay for one, and expect the other.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting SkydrolBoy (Reply 4):
CGMYC and CGMYE are both in YLW right now for storage....

It would sure be nice if Zoom could get their hands on these.
 
astral
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:45 am

Yes, both YC and YD were sold, but the deal is not yet fully finalized. It still pending a number of issues such as cross-boarder tax etc.
What the new owner wants to do with it, HQ has no control, but it was discussed to part-out the two B757s. UPS did approached HQ, but they wouldn't need the B757s until 2008 which was too late for HQ.
I quite agree with Pacifica, and there are many reasons why HQ couldn't move ahead as it had planned. Since HQ is now in a slow descending hold pattern, I could 'release' a little more points about its decision to stop operations. The biggest immediate failure as far as I am concern at HQ is sales and marketing, then complicated by the delay in Canada gaining ADS from China. HQ planned to sustain a certain level of loss till ADS being granted so as to spring ahead then. However, the loss was far much more and was growing, coupled with a dimmer future on its ultimate goal, the writings was on the wall.
I hope all of you would not doubt too much about HQ's future. It is not cheap just to park a B757, the leasing charges, parking fees, regular maintenance fees, occasional test flight, minimum staffing cost, etc. etc. is still a considerable amount of money. If Dr. Ho has no real intention to re-start, he would not spend these amount of money for keeping an aircraft so as to have the AOC active.
I meet a number of international senior airlines executives in YVR at the IATA AGM yesterday, and all of them expressed a sincere disappointment of loosing a potential great interline partner. With AC keep cutting off interline partners, many of them are now seeing just servicing YYZ, YUL and YVR very much with less interest.
 
pacifica
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 4:56 am

RE: Harmony Update

Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 6):
That just goes to show you, they were not offering what the Customer was looking for, period. Bottom line is just that ... bottom line. The number one deciding factor is price and nothing else. In a flash on September 11th, the high yield, high revenue passenger disappeared.

Remember him? He was the one that was actually paying for the perks that are no longer offered by airlines, so that you could fly from YYZ-YVR for $99.

I don't know how many times I have read on this website, people bragging about the low fare they "scored" then asking for advice on how to get upgraded to a higher class. Lets face it, First Class and Business Class have a price. So does a no frills seat from A to B. One can't pay for one, and expect the other.

Agreed.
I guess in my long paragraphs of filler, all I really meant to say was this. It's quite sad what our society has come to, that with respect to aviation, most (and I stress only most) common leisure travellers are governed by price and price alone (although to some extent schedule can be a factor). True service has taken a back seat in the minds of economy class passengers, while the cheap $99 Orbitz fares have become king.

Then again it comes as no surprise in a day and age where price is becoming everything in most industries to most people. But alas, that is for another thread.

Just my honest opinion.

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