PEET7G
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:00 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Marquis (Reply 50):
This is a without a doubt a completely politically motivated order. The Russian government couldn't gain the desired influence in Airbus' parent company EADS and therefore they will cancel the MOU for the A350XWB and go with the 787.

It does have some political sting in it, but remember the know-how guys at Aeroflot always wanted the 787...

And to my opinion the 787-8 is more suitable. I think even the A358 would be too much for a 767 replacement.
Peet7G
 
User avatar
USAF336TFS
Posts: 1362
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:17 pm

Wow talk about politics making strange bed-fellows. Well this is certainly good news for both Boeing and Aeroflot. Their fleet will be balanced and state-of-the-art, in terms of leading edge technology aircraft; Both the 787 and A350.

Mr Putin, Thank you! Next, will Russia demand some technology sharing in the missile defence and aerospace arena? Sure looks like it to this observer.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Marquis (Reply 50):
This is a without a doubt a completely politically motivated order. The Russian government couldn't gain their influence desired in Airbus' parent company EADS and therefore they will cancel the MOU for the A350XWB and go with the 787.

No surprise here, Marquis. Didn't a Russian spokesperson say awhile back that this order (s) would be political? I can't prove a bit of this, but I do believe that Chancellor Merkel's "push back" on Russia's not-so-subtle quest for board representation will be a consideration--IF this "order" materializes. I seriously doubt that the A350XWB MOU would be cancelled; in fact, I would expect that to be firmed up at Paris. This is the Kremlin playing on both sides of the fence.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:22 pm

I have another side to this issue that maybe we are overlooking. Politics aside, would it not be prudent for Boeing to land an A350 customer for a 787 order to prove that both airplanes could exist in the same fleet.

I know it sounds a bit complicated at first, but if Boeing was looking to sell more of an obviously popular airplane and went to the airlines that are sole A350 customers and said "I know you are an A350 customer, but the two can co-exist within your fleet. Our planes can do things that theirs can't, look at SU." I would wager that they would sell quite a bit more planes. If the difference in size is what we think it will be, then the 787 and A350 markets do not totally overlap. This would leave room for the carriers that already do split Boeing / Airbus fleets to operate both safely.

I think it is a genius sales move by Boeing, rather than total political posturing by the governments. I bet Boeing Execs worked hard within the Russian government to ensure the previous road blocks were removed. They had a lot of money riding on it.

As for the pricing issue, Boeing and Airbus are businesses. I mean, it has been proven that the 787 sells like hotcakes at a 31% discount off of the "list price." Assuming that they still break even and make profit off of the frame at that price, who are we to judge what they charge. And orders are more symbols than anything else. Landing big carriers with large orders proves the viability of the airframe at any price, and they are going to make a lot of money off of maintenance and services down the road anyway. So lets not try to read too much into list prices.

Just my  twocents  as food for thought.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:52 pm

 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:57 pm

Thanks for that, aminobwana. Maybe my guess was right.

"Boeing will also sign a protocol to expand its cooperation with Russia's Sukhoi corporation.

"The U.S. firm is already consulting Sukhoi on the design, marketing and production of a Sukhoi Superjet regional airliner and will expand its involvement by agreeing to create personnel training and servicing centers.

"Kommersant quoted industry experts as saying the reversal of Russia's position toward Boeing was politically motivated and follows Moscow's failure to gain a bigger involvement in EADS."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 54):
have another side to this issue that maybe we are overlooking. Politics aside, would it not be prudent for Boeing to land an A350 customer for a 787 order to prove that both airplanes could exist in the same fleet.

Good point. Aeroflot isn't the first airline to consider flying the 787 and A350. Singapore Airlines has already ordered both, and since the A350 has now been sized up to be more of a 777 replacement/competitor, the idea of flying the 787 and A350 seems logical to me. There's already quite a few airlines flying the A330 and 777, so Aeroflot ordering both the 787 and A350 can be justified on purely operational grounds, regardless of any politics that may or may not be involved.

Me, I like it when both Airbus and Boeing get nice orders, I bet the 787 and A350 will look sharp in SU colors.  bigthumbsup 

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:08 pm

If both of these orders pass, Aeroflot must seriously plan on ramping up services. ATM Aeroflot only possess 11 767-300/ERs and 6 IL-96!  bouncy 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
If the deal goes through, it will be interesting to see what the estimated discount is. The original deal was at 31%, but the A350 discount is estimated at 53% so I wonder if that will affect the 787 negotiations...

The Boeing List Price for the B788 (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/) is $ 148-157.5
As the Reuters Article state, the $ 2B ( $ 91M, list - 38.5/42.3% each) is a "rough" total price

Therefore, this probably means that the real discount is 40%, (versus 53% for A350 as indicated by Stitch)
adequate to the importance of the deal.

As I wrote when the B787 deal with S7 was announced, the revival of the Boeing deal was to be expected.

As for the question what will happen with the A350 MoU or LOI, see the Reuters Update
http://www.reuters.com/article/tnBas...ndustries-SP/idUSL0788613820070607

where it is stated:

"Russia's flagship airline Aeroflot may revive a $2 billion deal to buy 22 Boeing jets, but will not scrap an earlier deal to buy 22 planes from Airbus, a company source said on Thursday.

Quote:
"Our talks with Boeing do not mean we will cancel the deal with Airbus. We have been saying for a long time that we can exploit both models,"

the source said".

VTB is still pursuing to purchase an additional stake in EADS, therefore IMO the MoU will not be cancelled as
long Russia see a chance to succeed. Nevertheless, the clear statement of the Germans that they are not willing to release they 50/50 parity in EADS, see http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews/idUSL0476901920070604
makes both the investments of VTB and Qatar very difficult if not impossible.

aminobwana
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:55 pm

So ... everyone would rather negatively argue about the politics of SU, Russia, the US, Airbus and Boeing, instead of discussing the positive issue of Boeing possibly collaborating with Sukhoi to bring the first mass-market commercial airliner out of Russia to Western markets as a whole.

:sigh:

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
TANSTAAFL!
 
PEET7G
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:00 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 61):
"Russia's flagship airline Aeroflot may revive a $2 billion deal to buy 22 Boeing jets, but will not scrap an earlier deal to buy 22 planes from Airbus, a company source said on Thursday.

What the hell will Aeroflot do with 44 WB planes? Especially if we consider that the Russian market has some other big and healthy players too.
Peet7G
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 12:37 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:21 am

This is getting confusing! First the wanted the 787 then didn't want it and now they want it?!


I'll believe it when they sign the contract!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
klkla
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:28 am

Is the SU A350 order firmed or still just in the commitment phase?
 
EI321
Posts: 5001
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 57):
ATM Aeroflot only possess 11 767-300/ERs and 6 IL-96!

They also have orders for 10 A330, 6 IL96 and are looking for more 767s apparently.
 
F14D4ever
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:20 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:32 am

Have SU stated or hinted at their engine selection?
"He is risen, as He said."
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Klkla (Reply 62):
Is the SU A350 order firmed or still just in the commitment phase?

To the best of my knowledge neither order is firm. As far as the Boeing one is concerned, it hasn't been signed, but a 'private individual' paid the deposits so that SU didn't lose the delivery slots; they will not be returnable unless the order is eventually signed. The Airbus order is just a 'commitment.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 65):
As far as the Boeing one is concerned, it hasn't been signed, but a 'private individual' paid the deposits so that SU didn't lose the delivery slots; they will not be returnable unless the order is eventually signed.

Boeing have nothing. Mr A Lebedev, as referred to earlier, paid deposits via 30% shareholder NAC, his company the largest sharehlder, at the beginning of November 2006 to hold the delivery slots for 1 month until December 1st. No terms could be agreed by that date and the monies were returned. The terms and conditions of the original agreement between Boeing and SU expired.

SU lost their 2010 delivery slots
SU lost their MD-11F lease with Boeing taking only 3 out of 6 at higher lease rates with the other MD-11s going to TAM
SU lost "launch customer" pricing at the expense of S7 who picked that up as Russian Launch Customer.
SU are looking at 2013 delivery slots at the earliest.

Anything agreed to hear will be a new contract but I've now doubt Boeing will step up. Participation in local industry is robust by both Boeing and Airbus and I see no reason why the order will not be split 22 a piece.

NAV20 I'm not addressing you with the following statement but there have been many deletions from this thread.

Please keep the Political element to the minimum and look at the workshare agreements being put in place by both OEMSs along with other issues such as recent titantium agreements and discuss the offsets.

If not this thread will be locked

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:55 am

I'll believe it when I see it.

They have announced this before only to have it cancelled 3 months later time and again.
One Nation Under God
 
dougbr2006
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:02 am

If there is an announcement I would have thought it would have had more impact being announced at the forthcoming PARIS AIRSHOW if indeed Boeing have recovered the order the speculation as to the A350 order is now up in the air, PARIS will be when we should see confirmation of A350 orders and B787 getting some new cliebts. Generally Boeing loves to announce impact orders at shows it seems strange to announce this one before the show.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26515
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:04 am

Just a side note, news out of Russia is that Bush and Putin appear to be coming to a mutually-agreeable deal on the US ABM system plans for Central Europe so this may no longer be a blocking factor to the deal, if it is in fact actively being worked.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9270
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 68):
Generally Boeing loves to announce impact orders at shows it seems strange to announce this one before the show.

Boeing has historically done the exact opposite.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:02 am

Wonder if the S7 purchase of 787s plays into Aeroflot's decision.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
EI321
Posts: 5001
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 70):
Quoting Dougbr2006 (Reply 68):
Generally Boeing loves to announce impact orders at shows it seems strange to announce this one before the show.

Boeing has historically done the exact opposite.

I wouldn't call it the exact opposite (That would imply they try to avoid announcements at shows), but I think Airbus fits Dougbr2006's description much better, at lease in the last few years.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:39 am

I figured this would happen, putting political dirt aside and realizing the 787 is by far the better aircraft.

Too bad they couldn't hold on the 777s....
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26515
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 73):
Too bad they couldn't hold on the 777s...

If they had more then two, they most likely would have...
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:16 am

]

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 60):
What the hell will Aeroflot do with 44 WB planes? Especially if we consider that the Russian market has some other big and healthy players too.

I would not worry. IMHO They will not order 44WB planes !!

aminobwana
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 67):


I'll believe it when I see it.
They have announced this before only to have it cancelled 3 months later time and again.

Nobody announced until now ORDERS either for Boeing or Airbus, even if some of their sales people tried to
present it as such. They were MoU's or LOI's, even if the original B787 one had a seriousness deposit.

Let wait until Saturday, and see which are the persons making the announcement. If they are top persons of
Boeing and Aeroflot jointly, then it is serious.

aminobwana
 
drexotica
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:44 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 37):
I hope the Aeroflot are only buying A350s because they are not allowed buy 787s crowd missed breakfast because they will have a lot of words to eat is this comes true.

My oh my. People tend to carry a lot of baggage around on this forum. Guess it makes sense, being commercial aviation after all ...
N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1559
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 73):
figured this would happen, putting political dirt aside and realizing the 787 is by far the better aircraft.

Could not agree more. Bush and Putin were practically in a love fest at the G8 today. Putin now says the US can put the missiles in the region. Just not Poland or the Chez Republic.

I see 787's.  checkmark 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 66):
Boeing have nothing. Mr A Lebedev, as referred to earlier, paid deposits via 30% shareholder NAC, his company the largest sharehlder, at the beginning of November 2006 to hold the delivery slots for 1 month until December 1st. No terms could be agreed by that date and the monies were returned. The terms and conditions of the original agreement between Boeing and SU expired.

As far as I remember, the official version was that the deal was "frozen", not terminated. Do we have supports that indicate that advance, prices, slots and other terms were nullified, and not eventually frozen beyond the original December term??

Quote:
SU lost their 2010 delivery slots


See above. The Reuters article update states that "2010 -- a deadline that Boeing had said it would be able to meet"
..........................

Quote:
SU lost "launch customer" pricing at the expense of S7 who picked that up as Russian Launch Customer.

Do we have any support of such S7-Aeroflot condition interrelaton ?? Factually, as the delivery begin S7 is 2014 and Aeroflot was 2010, it seems no to be so !

Quote:
SU are looking at 2013 delivery slots at the earliest.

Supports ?? Even if this was so as long Aeroflot planned a 5 year (?) lease of E330s, this lease probably would not be needed if Boeing begind to deliver 2010. For the short interval until then Boeing could possibly provide a lease of some B767 or similar !

Quote:
Anything agreed to hear will be a new contract but I've now doubt Boeing will step up

.
The article seems to suggest otherwise

Quote:
Participation in local industry is robust by both Boeing and Airbus and I see no reason why the order will not be split 22 a piece.

I assume that you think that they would split as a quid pro quo for the local industry support. It could be so, but IMO this will not happen, as it makes little sense that an Airline like Aeroflot, which has more than normal problems with maintenance and service, would accept such duality. It is not to be forgotten that Aeroflot is ordering already a lot of A320s to satisfy AB and if they need more than 22 WB, they could exercise options of the provider of the former.

As a final comment, IMHO any airline which issue MoUs, LOIs or reversible orders both for B787 and A350 does so to ensure slots and so get more time to take a final decision, but on the end will order only one of these !!

A

I will comment other aspects of your post separately

aminobwana
 
EI321
Posts: 5001
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
Quote:
SU are looking at 2013 delivery slots at the earliest.

Supports ?? Even if this was so as long Aeroflot planned a 5 year (?) lease of E330s, this lease probably would not be needed if Boeing begind to deliver 2010. For the short interval until then Boeing could possibly provide a lease of some B767 or similar !

The leaseed A330's are interims for the A350's. Do you remember the 767-400ER thread I had a while ago? Do you think Boeing could offer SU some 767-400ER's? It would look great in their livery.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
As far as I remember, the official version was that the deal was "frozen", not terminated.

Thats correct. As I said at the start of this thread:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 37):
I have said several times since that this could likely happen. After stating that they intended to order 22 A350s and 22 787s, did everybody really think that the airline was halving its plans because Putin decided he would give the American side a metaphorical slap on the wrist, or that SU was instead going to order 44 A350s? There may have been political potato throwing between Moscow, the EU and Washington but that does not mean that Boeing or Airbus should be the victims.

Its been my opinion since this order was swept under the carpet by the Kremlin that they would eventually go with the 787s aswell.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 80):
The leaseed A330's are interims for the A350's. Do you remember the 767-400ER thread I had a while ago? Do you think Boeing could offer SU some 767-400ER's? It would look great in their livery.

I have not a clear opinion at the 767-400 issue. As under the assumption that SU will get B787 ibeginning in
2010, tthe (new?) B764 as interims will be only be used a short time and I assume it woul not be easy sell
them. I do not know if there are available such for a short term lease ! But, again, given the short term of
such lease, any older aircraft would do !!

Quoting EI321 (Reply 80):
Its been my opinion since this order was swept under the carpet by the Kremlin that they would eventually go with the 787s aswell.



Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
assume that you think that they would split as a quid pro quo for the local industry support. It could be so, but IMO this will not happen, as it makes little sense that an Airline like Aeroflot, which has more than normal problems with maintenance and service, would accept such duality. It is not to be forgotten that Aeroflot is ordering already a lot of A320s to satisfy AB and if they need more than 22 WB, they could exercise options of the provider of the former

Again, I think that buying B787 AND E350 by an airline struggling with maintenance makes little sense. But as
this is about SU, you could be right!

Possibly we will get an answer Saturday (but not for sure, as Russia wants to keep its options regarding EADS open.

aminobwana
 
azhobo
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:52 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Marquis (Reply 49):
This is a without a doubt a completely politically motivated order. The Russian government couldn't gain their influence desired in Airbus' parent company EADS and therefore they will cancel the MOU for the A350XWB and go with the 787.

I dont think this is any more or less political than the airbus "order" to qatar and the aibus plant for planes deal with the chinese.

Or other deals for boeing with the chinese.

But i agree that the airbus snub on the russians will cost them the aeroflot order for a350s and a chance for airbus longs to buy back 5% of their outstanding shares.

HOBO
 
azhobo
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:52 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 56):
Aeroflot isn't the first airline to consider flying the 787 and A350. Singapore Airlines has already ordered both, and since the A350 has now been sized up to be more of a 777 replacement/competitor, the idea of flying the 787 and A350 seems logical to me.

I thought we were still waiting for singapore to turn in to an a350 order?

HOBO
 
da man
Posts: 836
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:27 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 81):
B764 as interims will be only be used a short time and I assume it woul not be easy sell
them. I do not know if there are available such for a short term lease !

The only airlines that operate the 764 are DL and CO. None are available for lease and the only frame not in use has not been built yet and will go to the USAF.
War Eagle!
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 82):
But i agree that the airbus snub on the russians will cost them the aeroflot order for a350s and a chance for airbus longs to buy back 5% of their outstanding shares.

Not sure about the 'order' - given that the design will not be settled for a long time yet, it would cost the Russians nothing at least to leave the MOU in place.

As to the shares, I've long given up on trying to fathom the workings of the sharemarket, but I've noted that EADS shares have dropped more than E1.00 in recent days, on quite large volumes (around 4M. shares per day). Is it possible that the Russians are already off-loading their 5%-plus holding?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 83):
I thought we were still waiting for singapore to turn in to an a350 order?

Yes.

The SQ "order" is still a MoU. Many expect it to be firmed up at Paris. Then again many expected it to be firmed up last Dec-Jan.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
azhobo
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:52 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 85):
Is it possible that the Russians are already off-loading their 5%-plus holding?

I believe that I read that was something they would have to 'consider'. Maybe just posturing, but not a smart thing for any large long to threaten. Unless in reality he was going to buy more on the open market and muscle their way in to airbus board room.

If i were to bet with my checkbook, i would probably lose.

HOBO
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 86):
The SQ "order" is still a MoU. Many expect it to be firmed up at Paris. Then again many expected it to be firmed up last Dec-Jan.



Quote:
Chew Choon Seng of SQ wants engine choices


(See topic "JW Interview With A350 Potential Buyers")
'

Quote:
GEnx engines don't work for us at all,'' Leahy said. ''We have no intention of putting their GEnx engine on the A350 at all. It has to be a generation beyond.''


(See topic "No GE Nx For The XWB")

Quote:
Leahy is running is mouth to cover the fact that they royaly pissed off GE with the A350 to A350XWB switch. Its the same tactic they used when Airbus was going to fail to meet the date for the engine alliance engines to be hung and start the test program. They blamed the engine maker, and quickly got busted for thier lie given that the first shipset was sitting at the A380 factory


(see post XT6Wagon in topic "No GE Nx For The XWB")

Mr. Chew Ch. Seng said above a few days ago.
Mr. Leahy said so yesterady or today.
GEnx which many believed would be the choice, is out, whatever the reasons. Nothing as far I know is known about the the data of alternatives.

So, if we apply logic, how could SQ place a firm order in 10 days ?? But of course, logical considerations are
progressively less prominent within this issue !!

aminobwana
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
I will comment other aspects of your post separately

Please feel free to post those other comments now so that I can answer everything at once and we can continue the discussion. I have to admit I made a small error, slot availability was pushed out to 2014 for the SU 787 delivery and the month I refer to should have NAC and Mr Lebedev's deal expiring on the 1st of November, not December as stated.

I look forward to your other aspects, when posted and will answer accordingly.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17796
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 75):
I would not worry. IMHO They will not order 44WB planes !!

Well, SU said several times that they were looking at ordering 44.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ospace/2003260199_webboeing15.html

Quote:
Aeroflot was thought to be considering a purchase of 22 planes, worth roughly $3 billion at list prices, but Koshlyakov said Sept. 12 that the airline may double the planned purchase to 44 aircraft and split the order between the two manufacturers.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/20/business/airbus.php

So it seems, some at least fully expected SU to buy both A350s and 787s.

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 82):
But i agree that the airbus snub on the russians will cost them the aeroflot order for a350s and a chance for airbus longs to buy back 5% of their outstanding shares.

Officials at SU have repeatedly said they will buy both the A350 and 787. Please see above links.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
iL62M
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Not necessarily, they are used to that game.

I would rather say they use same tactics sometime someway. And that is why they are used to it )))

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 44):
"Post-sale support and service of the plane as well as the creation of a training center for personnel" ... This sounds to me as though they are contemplating setting such programs outside of Russia, to bring the SSJ to the world as whole. Perhaps this paves the way to a generally distributed Russian-manufactured commercial airliner to finally and truly compete Boeing, Airbus and others? Or rather, I should say, Embraer, Canadair and so on ... since I believe the SSJ is actually an RJ?

Well SSJ (ex Russian Regional Jet) is not competing any Boeing model (Boeing dont have such capacity planes). Boeing is highly intrested in this plane (as far as i know) but till this time Boeing played very strange (should i call it strange? ))) ) game by doing nothing and getting the information. So that would be quite fair for now.

Quoting Marquis (Reply 49):
This is a without a doubt a completely politically motivated order. The Russian government couldn't gain their influence desired in Airbus' parent company EADS and therefore they will cancel the MOU for the A350XWB and go with the 787.

Why? I repeat myself once again - SU stated that they want 22 787s + 22 350s. 787s to replace 767s and 350s for future development (as i see it)

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 51):
Mr Putin, Thank you! Next, will Russia demand some technology sharing in the missile defence and aerospace arena? Sure looks like it to this observer.

Well... that is quite funny to read this neverending ******** from people from the USA. Very funny.
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting IL62M (Reply 91):
I would rather say they use same tactics sometime someway. And that is why they are used to it )))

Yep. But SU is certainly harder than a lot of other carriers. But that doesn't work well for them. I just read that they could have had the 787 in 2010, had they confirmed the original LoI signed by Alexander Lebedev, now they can't get it before 2014. Hm, if their A350 deal is still valid, they might need more than 10 interim A330s.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
iL62M
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 7:51 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 92):
signed by Alexander Lebedev

He's one of major shareholders. His bank to be right. National reserve bank (if it can be transladted that way).
And yes - he bought out a place in the order list for SU. Dont know what happened to it. Maybe it's still valid. Hope so. Dont want national carrier to lose money  Wink

Su is getting A330s by the end of this year or in summer 2008, as i can remember. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Edited 2007-06-08 12:34:53]
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
As far as I remember, the official version was that the deal was "frozen", not terminated. Do we have supports that indicate that advance, prices, slots and other terms were nullified, and not eventually frozen beyond the original December term??

As previously posted, I stand corrected on the date, it was November 1st, not December. The deal was not frozen instead, as stated, SU lost advantageous pricing, delivery slots and other benefits. Such as the MD-11F leases.

Firstly Mr Lebedev tried to hold those terms via NRC, his vehicle as the largest shareholder with 30%, for another month.

By Lyubov Pronina
Sept. 19, 2006, (Bloomberg) -- Alexander Lebedev, the owner of 30 percent of OAO Aeroflot, signed an agreement with Boeing Co. to reserve production slots for 787-model airliners as the Russian state-controlled airline awaits approval of the planes' purchase.

Boeing and Lebedev's National Reserve Corp. holding company signed an accord yesterday under which Moscow based National Reserve retains production times for 22 of the so-called 787 Dreamliners valued at about $2.5 billion, the Russian billionaire said today in a phone interview.


[snip]

''We are helping everyone: Aeroflot, Boeing and the Russian government,'' said Lebedev, who is also a deputy in the lower chamber of the Russian parliament.

[snip]

National Reserve's agreement with Boeing is the same as one that Aeroflot had for deliveries to begin in 2010 and discounts of $10 million per airplane, Lebedev said. National Reserve agreed on a down payment of about $40 million to Boeing.

[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com Navigate via a search for Aeroflot from the homepage]

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
Quote:
SU lost their 2010 delivery slots

See above. The Reuters article update states that "2010 -- a deadline that Boeing had said it would be able to meet"

That Reuters article is horribly wrong, with respect, as you have quoted, from said article;

2010 -- a deadline that Boeing had said it would be able to meet.

the same article then states the following;

Boeing, which was initially ready to supply Aeroflot with its first Dreamliners by 2010, says its production is now fully booked until 2014.

Your link sir, http://www.reuters.com/article/tnBas...idUSL0788613820070607?pageNumber=1

I'm sorry but the report contradicts itself, at least in the manner you present it.

Again, sorry for stating 2013 when it should have been 2014. But let us ensure that comment is backed up by some form of official announcement.

By Lyubov Pronina

Nov. 3, 2006 (Bloomberg) -- OAO Aeroflot, eastern Europe's largest carrier, lost production slots for 22 Boeing Co. 787 model planes because Russia's government has yet to approve a proposed order, which may lead to higher prices and longer delivery times.

''The original conditions on the contract have expired, ''Aeroflot Deputy Chief Executive Officer Lev Koshlyakov said in a telephone interview today. ''We will now be looking for other alternatives. We remain in contact with Boeing.''


[snip]

The reservation accord, signed with Lebedev's National Reserve Corp. holding company on behalf of Aeroflot, expired Nov. 1. ''The agreement has expired, and Boeing gave us back the $40 million down payment,'' National Reserve Chief Executive Officer Anatoly Danilitsky said in a telephone interview from Moscow.

''Even if Aeroflot later decides to buy Boeing, it will be at higher prices and different time slots. The deal will have to be negotiated practically from scratch.''


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com Navigate via a search for Aeroflot from the homepage]

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
Quote:
SU lost "launch customer" pricing at the expense of S7 who picked that up as Russian Launch Customer.

Do we have any support of such S7-Aeroflot condition interrelaton ?? Factually, as the delivery begin S7 is 2014 and Aeroflot was 2010, it seems no to be so !

Yes we do have support to back that up. Whether you like it or not, SU can't get a 787 prior to 2014, a point which I have backed up via multiple sources. Let's see what Boeing said about S7 and Launch Discounts, S7 was given the launch discount for Russia, fact sir, read on.

Almost 600 firm orders on the books, S7 is the 45th customer to sign up. Given the strategic nature of a Russian sale after the SU debacle it's interesting to note that Boeing offered and S7 accepted a Launch customer discount

Chicago-based Boeing is treating S7 as a launch customer in Russia and is offering a discount, said Dailey, the company's commercial airplanes vice president of sales for Europe, Russia and Central Asia. He declined to specify the exact amount.

I trust that clarifies the point for you.

Source http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aD8OS9BJAbF4

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
The article seems to suggest otherwise

With the utmost respect the article you refer to is no more than fluff and blah blah as is being proved.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 79):
I assume that you think that they would split as a quid pro quo for the local industry support. It could be so, but IMO this will not happen, as it makes little sense that an Airline like Aeroflot, which has more than normal problems with maintenance and service, would accept such duality. It is not to be forgotten that Aeroflot is ordering already a lot of A320s to satisfy AB and if they need more than 22 WB, they could exercise options of the provider of the former.

Yes, offset agreements do come into play here and both Airbus and Boeing have invested heavily in Russia in recent years. SU intend to operate no less than 57 A32X series via direct purchase and lease by 2010. Yet still whilst the B787 was put on hold they leased 15 x B735s for a subsidiary of theirs.

My opinion differs to yours in that I believe SU will split the order for a total of 44 frames between Airbus and Boeing. As pointed out, their original RFP required 2010 delivery to replace their aging 767s. 10 x A330s were leased and are scheduled for delivery as follows 2 in 2008, 5 in 2009 and 3 in 2010. As pointed out by EI321.

At this point, they still retain an MoU for 22 x A350XWB and have now recommenced negotiations with Boeing for 22 x 787s. I see no reason, other than political interference, as to why this will not eventuate. It is my opinion that this situation, though ongoing for quite sime time, will be resolved and the split orders made.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting IL62M (Reply 91):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 44):
"Post-sale support and service of the plane as well as the creation of a training center for personnel" ... This sounds to me as though they are contemplating setting such programs outside of Russia, to bring the SSJ to the world as whole. Perhaps this paves the way to a generally distributed Russian-manufactured commercial airliner to finally and truly compete Boeing, Airbus and others? Or rather, I should say, Embraer, Canadair and so on ... since I believe the SSJ is actually an RJ?

Well SSJ (ex Russian Regional Jet) is not competing any Boeing model (Boeing dont have such capacity planes). Boeing is highly intrested in this plane (as far as i know) but till this time Boeing played very strange (should i call it strange? ))) ) game by doing nothing and getting the information. So that would be quite fair for now.

Thanks for replying, IL!

Where does the SSJ stand in the market currently? I did a quick look-through to see, and I've noted a couple of orders out there (including from Aeroflot) - but of course, they're all Russian at the time (although I saw where Malev was toying with getting some). Did those orders go off, and has Sukhoi been manufacturing and delivering the aircraft? If so, how has it been performing? Or is it still stalled out, waiting for the help of Boeing to push it over the top? Assuming the deal mentioned were to get the approvals it needs, what sort of time line would we be looking for the SSJ to perhaps start appearing in Western markets (further assuming that sales would be made)?
TANSTAAFL!
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting IL62M (Reply 93):
He's one of major shareholders. His bank to be right. National reserve bank (if it can be transladted that way).
And yes - he bought out a place in the order list for SU. Dont know what happened to it. Maybe it's still valid. Hope so. Dont want national carrier to lose money Wink

Su is getting A330s by the end of this year or in summer 2008, as i can remember. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Lebedev bought them slots in 2010, but the government didn't agree before the deadline, he lost the slots and some money, IIRC. Now SU can't get 787s before 2014, according to aero.de

The A330s? AFAIK they will be leased from a leasing company, AerCap, two in 2008, five in 2009, and three in 2010.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
NYC777
Posts: 5103
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:00 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:23 pm

Ok this thing with SU's order is getting ridiculous:

The Boeing source said Aeroflot had clearly wanted 787s from the beginning and was now trying to figure out what the Russian government will allow the airline to do.

In March, Aeroflot announced plans to buy 22 Airbus A350 planes.

The Boeing source said that in the end, Aeroflot can't take both the Airbus and Boeing jets, and that ultimately the proposal to one of the two rivals will be canceled.

"There may be some funny announcements still to come," he said.


Check out hte article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/busi...syndication=rss
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:38 pm

NADC10Fan I know we're a little OT with the Sukhoi Superjet but funds have been raised for development and the orderbook currently stands at 76 firm orders but I only know of 3 of those

45 x Aeroflot booked as 30 and a second tranche of 15
15 x AirUnion
6 x Dalavia plus 4 options.

I'm not sure who the other 10 are for but perhaps IL62M could update us. Sukhoi have stated they expect firm orders to surpass 100 this year and for full production to commence next year.

Back OT.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 96):
he lost the slots and some money,

As stated in reply #94 they got the money back ''The agreement has expired, and Boeing gave us back the $40 million down payment,'' National Reserve Chief Executive Officer Anatoly Danilitsky said in a telephone interview from Moscow.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 96):
AFAIK they will be leased from a leasing company

Again, to clarify from reply #94 that is the correct delivery schedule but they also have 5 more options to lease if they need.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Thread starter):
The news would be announced at roughly 3pm moscow time by Boeing's VP Scott Carson and General Director of Aeroflot Sergei Ivanov

Interfax just reported this again. http://www.interfax.com so the question is, where is Mr Carson this weekend?

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Aeroflot To Buy 22 Boeing 787's

Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:19 pm

Panam_DC10, I'm sure that you'll know, as well as or better than I do, that business is not like football, it's more like a poker game. Judging by the interest of all sorts of airlines in ordering 787s, despite the fact that, on the figures anyway, Boeing are 'sold out' for five years, I'm sure that Boeing have prudently left some slots open for latecomers.

My guess is that if Aeroflot want some 787s before 2014 or so, they'll eventually get them. But it'll cost them; probably in terms other than money - or, rather, AS WELL as money. Boeing appear to be holding some very good cards.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos