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SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:09 pm

LH did serve TXL-IAD in 2001.

About the discussion:
I think some routes would be a sensible add-on to the FRA/MUC superhub. Especially routes to ORD, IAD, BKK, SIN (the huge star hubs), or NYC (just because of the O&D). Airports like NRT/DEL/ICN are impossible at the moment.

Even with the lower operating costs of a 788, transatlantic flights, like today, will only work if at least one end of the flight is a hub.

SailorOrion
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM

Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 45):
Don't get me wrong, there is a significant traffic potential in Berlin, no doubt about it. And I am 100% sure LH will not forget Berlin. But then, Berlin - Hamburg is less than 2 hours by train, so an intercontinental hub would be close within reach anyway.

Isn't it 1 hour by train now?

This option would only be worth talking about if LH were offering the train tickets as part of the deal (or EK for that matter). Until that happens, why take any risks, if you can choose from dozens of airlines that offer long-range connections via their hubs?

On the passenger potential: last year Berlin airports reported 18.5m passengers and ranked 3rd behind FRA and MUC.

P.S. I don't think that more long-haul flying from STR HAM TXL will help much given that the majority of destinations will still require the use of an hub where LH will be competing with lots of other airlines that offer a similar (but often cheaper) product via their hub.
 
ZakHH
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 51):
Isn't it 1 hour by train now?

93 minutes, to be exact. In theory, to be even more exact  Wink , hence I wrote "less than 2 hours".

Quoting Wsp (Reply 51):
On the passenger potential: last year Berlin airports reported 18.5m passengers

Without having exact figures at hand, I would suppose that most traffic was domestic or tourist. For both, Berlin's potential is undoubted.

Still, I would assume that intercontinental liner traffic is more focused on business travelers. For them, other German airports may be more interesting.
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columba
Posts: 5256
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting Eta unknown (Reply 10):
Anybody remember the LH DC-10 JFK-DUS/HAM/STR flights???

No, but remember DUS-EWR flights with A340s. My first transatlantic flight.

Quoting HMan (Reply 11):
Don't get me wrong, I like LH, but the way they treat this city is just unbelievable

Agreed

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
I wouldn't be surprised that LH's upcoming fleet of 747-8I's will be heavily based there, catering to traffic for people dealing with the German government based in Berlin.

Nice dream but I share the same opinion as N1120A:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
That is a pipe dream. The 748I fleet is likely to be based in Frankfurt and maybe Muenchen and any long haul from Berlin, Hamburg, etc. would be on smaller aircraft like the 787

BBI will see A330/A340 and later A350 or 787.

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 47):
Didn't LH serve IAD non-stop from either TXL or HAM for a brief time around 2001?

Yes, they used A340-200s.
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
hman
Posts: 45
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 45):
Don't get me wrong, there is a significant traffic potential in Berlin, no doubt about it. And I am 100% sure LH will not forget Berlin. But then, Berlin - Hamburg is less than 2 hours by train, so an intercontinental hub would be close within reach anyway.

Yes, it will be in BBI, close enough for Hamburg  Wink.

Maybe Hamburg will get international LH flights first but I doubt it will ever become a hub for LH. I really think BBI has better chances, not because it's in Berlin but it will be new, bigger and more suited for hub operations. If LH would seriously set up a hub and that means inter Europeon connection flights, then the local traffic situation wouldn't be so important anymore.

That argument that there are not enough connecting passengers today is really funny since you can hardly fly anywhere but domestic on LH from TXL.
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 52):
Without having exact figures at hand, I would suppose that most traffic was domestic or tourist. For both, Berlin's potential is undoubted.

http://www.flughafen-berlin.de/EN/Ue...s/Verkehrsstatistik/Jaehrlich.html

for scheduled service:
domestic: 7.1m
internat.: 10.4m

This is skewed towards the domestic side given that LHs feeder for FRA and MUC are probably 100% counted on the domestic side.
 
ZakHH
Posts: 1570
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting HMan (Reply 54):
BBI

Why should LH build a hub in India?  Wink

Quoting HMan (Reply 54):
Maybe Hamburg will get international LH flights first but I doubt it will ever become a hub for LH.

I don't think so, either. But that does not speak against some direct connections to Star hubs in America and Asia.

Let's not forget: LH is not speaking about establishing a third hub in Germany. They speak of direct intercontinental connections from some additional airports. And I could imagine that there will be demand for it.

Quoting HMan (Reply 54):
That argument that there are not enough connecting passengers today is really funny since you can hardly fly anywhere but domestic on LH from TXL.

Well, there is BEG, BRU, HEL, CPH, LUX, LIN, MUCBig grin ), SVO, OSL, CDG, ARN, WAW, VIE, ZRH.
But okay, destinations alone are not all that counts. LH at TXL is certainly set up for short hops (after all, you could see inner-EU flights as sort of domestic).
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Thorben
Posts: 2713
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting HMan (Reply 11):
I hope AB/LT really kicks LH's a** in BER. It's a shame how they avoid the largest city and capital of their home country. They don't even give the city a chance that seems to work for DL, CO, QR, AB and hopefully others soon. Now they want to start intercontinental from about every airport in this country besides TXL??? Hopefully once the others make Berlin a sucessfull international airport it will be to late for LH to get a big share of it.

Don't get me wrong, I like LH, but the way they treat this city is just unbelievable.

In the article it says they'll fly long-haul from Berlin, too.

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 47):
Didn't LH serve IAD non-stop from either TXL or HAM for a brief time around 2001?

Yep, was axed right after 9/11. A342 was used, my last visit in the US. Was a strange feeling to land after the trans-atlantic flight and not have to connect at FRA.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
I think LH could see a major bump up in flights out of Berlin once Berlin Brandenburg International is fully open. I wouldn't be surprised that LH's upcoming fleet of 747-8I's will be heavily based there, catering to traffic for people dealing with the German government based in Berlin. LH's A380-800 fleet will probably mostly operate out of FRA and MUC, in my humble opinion. Smile

747s are to big for TXL and the current SXF. I think we'll see A330s and A343s here, but nothing bigger until the new SXF has been built.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
LHUSA
Posts: 834
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:25 am

Here are some of the changes that I could see in the near future.

ORD-HAM or TXL with PrivatAir
ORD-DUS Mainline
DTW-STR PrivatAir
EWR-DUS Mainline
EWR-MUC is already going mainline this Fall so that will free up a PrivatAir BBJ.
IAD-TXL Mainline or PrivatAir

I wonder if LH would offer TXL-New York service. I think the market is already saturated with CO and DL, so I don't think that LH would begin that route.

(BTW... I do work for LH but none of these decisions are discussed at my level and I haven't heard a thing about them. So, don't worry, I'm not sharing anything that's confidential or even rumors that I've heard - these are just my own assumptions of possible markets).
 
Humberside
Posts: 3240
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:35 am

Could DUS-IAD be possible, or does ORD take care of the US connecting market adequately?

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 58):
EWR-MUC is already going mainline this Fall so that will free up a PrivatAir BBJ.

Arent they keeping the BBJ as well?
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LHUSA
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 59):
Arent they keeping the BBJ as well?

Both flights are still in the reservation systems, but I don't expect the Business Jet to stay on that route with the new mainline service. Haven't heard anything about it though.
 
columba
Posts: 5256
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 58):
TXL with PrivatAir

Doubtful a reason why all the longhaul flights from TXL were axed was the lack of business travelers.

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 58):
I wonder if LH would offer TXL-New York service. I think the market is already saturated with CO and DL, so I don't think that LH would begin that route

Agreed, maybe they would fly to a United hub like Chicago or they fly to Washington again. The New York - Berlin market sees enough traffic but maybe LH will enter it to get CO and DL out of Berlin. They have tried that succesfully with domestic carriers here in Germany (the original Germanwings and Deutsche BA).
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
N1120A
Posts: 26667
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting COEWRNJ (Reply 47):
Didn't LH serve IAD non-stop from either TXL or HAM for a brief time around 2001?

Yes. It was a decent performer too but it lost out to post-9/11 costs and would have likely stuck around if the Privatair deal had been around still.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 59):

Arent they keeping the BBJ as well?

Probably, given that it has longer range and lower costs than the A319LRs used on the other routes.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:15 pm

To add to the chapter - also NUE is planning to offer flights to New York..
As reported in today's local newspaper,Nürnberger Nachrichten,the airport-director is evaluating options with both,LTU and Lufthansa..
link in German..here
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
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RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:07 pm

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 58):
I wonder if LH would offer TXL-New York service. I think the market is already saturated with CO and DL, so I don't think that LH would begin that route.

I say they'll do TXL-IAD, because IAD is a UA hub.

Quoting Columba (Reply 61):
Agreed, maybe they would fly to a United hub like Chicago or they fly to Washington again. The New York - Berlin market sees enough traffic but maybe LH will enter it to get CO and DL out of Berlin. They have tried that succesfully with domestic carriers here in Germany (the original Germanwings and Deutsche BA).

DL and CO have tons of connections at JFK resp. EWR. Given how LH has treated Berlin in the past I doubt that they could really compete on that route. My guess would be LH A333 TXL-IAD. Other guesses would be YYZ and BKK, which are hubs of AC and Thai
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 20):
I think LH could see a major bump up in flights out of Berlin once Berlin Brandenburg International is fully open. I wouldn't be surprised that LH's upcoming fleet of 747-8I's will be heavily based there, catering to traffic for people dealing with the German government based in Berlin.

i would be surprised if they put 748s there. clearly, that is a huge plane which needs lots of feeder flights. even with a possible LH expansion at BBI, i think the 748 is too large.

Quoting LHFADUS (Reply 27):
MUC is still far from reaching limits IMO. The terminal is hardly ever full, the next runway is on its way and the airport has nothing but green around it.

MUC is very crowded, apart from Terminal capacities. it is very hard to get slots at MUC.

Quoting LHFADUS (Reply 27):
FRA also has some cards left which aren't in the game yet: Terminal 3 and the new runway are coming and the A380 hangar is momentarily under construction.

T3 is nowhere near of being built. some time down the road they will build, and they need to, because traveling to and fro' FRA is a pain in the ass.

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 30):
That is somewhat true, however, if you consider how the MUC hub started, there is considerably more premium demand for the likes of Asia and the US from MUC than from somewhere like DUS. MUC-LAX gets premium traffic, however, although LTU offer a premium product, DUS-LAX just isn't in the same league. I think LH would find it difficult to make long-haul work from anywhere else in German.

i wouldn't necessarily say so. DUS and the Ruhrgebiet generate lots of high yielding traffic. also, the catchment area of MUC is not large, so if some kind of traffic makes MUC work, than that's the transfer passengers using LH's 2nd hub.
granted, MUC is not a bad market, but not that significant if consider the size of MUC airport.

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 32):
It has been tried and tested before and it doesn't work. LTU is the right carrier for DUS, not LH.

i disagree. the reason why LTU performs well is mainly its image imho. if LTU was known as a premium carrier iso a leisure carrier, i think LTU could have quite a significant long range network out of DUS.

Quoting BOAC911 (Reply 35):
It's very obvious that Hamburg, D�orf, and Berlin customers are willing to take other carriers instead of changing planes at FRA or MUC. This is the quandry that LH finds itself in. At what point will the hub-and-spoke system begin to neglect LH's german customers? I suspect it already has. Residents of Germany (not just greater Frankfurt and Munich, which are also being gouged) are still Lufthansa's bread and butter customers....

that's a very good point. although it remains to be seen how largely LH will put into effect its longhaul expansion of out of secondary German airports, i think its dual-hub strategy will be altered in the following way:
FRA and MUC are both very capacity constraint (slots). there are limits as to how much LH can grow there. currently, there is healthy mix of German and international transfer passengers. however, with the influx of CO, DL, NW, QR and EK and more and more decentral routes, many German customers are flying with them instead.
now if LH shifted the ratio of international and German transfer passengers in favor of the first ones, while at the same time opening some direct longhaul services from DUS or HAM or TXL, it could take some pressure away from the hubs and still compete more successfully against the likes of EK and DL.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 50):
think some routes would be a sensible add-on to the FRA/MUC superhub. Especially routes to ORD, IAD, BKK, SIN (the huge star hubs), or NYC (just because of the O&D). Airports like NRT/DEL/ICN are impossible at the moment.

i totally agree. i only differ in saying that SIN is an unlikely destination for decentral service, whereas i think DEL for sure is (along with PEK and especially PVG).

Quoting Wsp (Reply 51):
On the passenger potential: last year Berlin airports reported 18.5m passengers and ranked 3rd behind FRA and MUC.

the pure number of passengers doesn't mean a thing. where are they traveling to, what are the main traffic flows, which kind of carriers are they using, what are they willing to pay for the flights...

Quoting Columba (Reply 53):
BBI will see A330/A340 and later A350 or 787.

yep, i'd put my money in the same basket.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
HT
Posts: 5864
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: LH Wants To Open Intercontinental From STR,HAM,DUS

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 65):
it remains to be seen how largely LH will put into effect its longhaul expansion of out of secondary German airports, i think its dual-hub strategy

Wouldn't LH actually have a "Triple-hub strategy" at present considering its control over LX ?
When searching for longhaul flights (out of HAJ) on LH's website I get full flexibility on connections at FRA, MUC and ZRH (and already have made my bookings accordingly mixing transfers at MUC and ZRH to LAX).

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 65):
Quoting LHFADUS (Reply 27):MUC is still far from reaching limits IMO. The terminal is hardly ever full, the next runway is on its way and the airport has nothing but green around it.
MUC is very crowded, apart from Terminal capacities. it is very hard to get slots at MUC.

I think, the original statement was more aimed at "MUC still has the possibility to expand (= more runways, another terminal) as there still are some greenlands around it." unlike the constraints for many other airports. That any airport expansion will be objected by a number of people is understood here, too ...

Quoting Thorben (Reply 64):
My guess would be LH A333 TXL-IAD.

I have seen a number of (German speaking) pax with diplomatic passport on flights from FRA/MUC to IAD, who I suspect have originated their trip in BER. So, IMO a "Capital to Capital service" TXL-IAD (re-instated after being dropped after 9/11) might make sense "up front" in the a/c. OTOH, LH should have the figures at hand (extractable from their pax figures) how many Business Class pax are originating at BER and are transferring through FRA/MUC ...
Counting on transfer pax flying from german airports to TXL for a service to IAD might be limited, as TXL is not served by LH from too many airports (compared to FRA and MUC). The rail has eaten away at least HAM and HAJ to TXL.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 64):
Other guesses would be YYZ

How big it the share of VFR pax on flights to/from YYZ ? Usually these fill planes but generate rather low yields.
LH's A333 might be too big for opening this route, having to discount too heavily in Y while at the same time hurting pax figures from FRA & MUC. A AC-sewrvice with B767 might be a better option for opening the route (or run it seasonal in summer with its higher demand ?).
-HT
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