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ERJ170
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Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:15 am

Seems that everywhere is getting some new or upgraded service except ORF.

I know I am usually pro-RDU (and I still am).. but I also have friends in the ORF area and visit frequently. To be honest, service at ORF is really off compared to what it usually was...

Airlines:

AA/AE, US/USX, NW/NWA, COX, DL/DLC, WN, UAX....

AA brings in mainline to DFW (other stations ORD, MIA, STL)
US bring in mainline to CLT (other stations PHL, PIT, LGA, DCA, RDU)
DL brings in mainline to ATL (other stations CVG, JFK, MCO)
NW brings in mainline to DTW (MSP)
WN to MDW, BWI, JAX, MCO, LAS (BNA weekends?)
UAX to ORD, IAD
COX to EWR, IAH, CLE

What's the possibility of new service or a new carrier? who/what are the likely prospects?
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FlyPIJets
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:44 am

I always wonder what effect PHF has on limiting service to ORF. Both FL and DL fly to PHF (as does USX). Looking at the number of flights that both DL (main line, too) and FL have at PHF, they must be drawing a significant number of pax from ORF.

That said, I am a little surprised the XJet passed on ORF, seems like ORF would be a good bet for them. I could see MSY, BHM, JAX as pretty good bets.
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ERJ170
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:47 am

JAX would be direct competition for WN.. that's a no-no..

But I could see RDU, MCI, BHM, and MSY..

But there is no FLL, no PVD (Navy-to-Navy), no PHX.. and most flights are RJ.. hmm.. just wondering what others think.. thanks PIJets
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SANFan
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:12 am

When the heck is someone going to start flying a n/s between ORF and SAN!? (According to 3Q06 DOT figures, 349 O&D pax a day fly each way between these 2 giant military port cities and ORF is currently the second largest unserved O&D market out of San Diego, TPA being the first!) Can someone in the know check the top unserved ORF markets?

Anyone know who has the (majority) Navy air travel contract out of these 2 cities? My guess is UA so I would suspect they should be the one to offer a n/s for all those travelers. (I am assuming here that the majority of the traffic must be military but maybe I'm wrong...)

I'd love to see WN step to the plate but I don't know if enough of the military can/would fly them.

Come on somebody, let's save our military flyers 1-2 hours of unnecessary hassle with connections to get between these 2 cities; they do enough for us without making them suffer through connecting at DEN in February and ATL in August!

bb
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:33 am

ERJ170, thanks for starting this topic, as I've been wondering the same for quite some time. It seems that many markets could be potential candidates for service from ORF, but it appears that SAN would indeed be one on the top of the list.

Would airlines such as Frontier, Allegiant, Midwest, or XJet ever consider service? I just don't know.

I know that there has been much discussion about Air Midwest (as US Airways Express) dropping its n/s flights to RDU. Looking today, despite being listed on the US schedules, it seems that these flights are no longer bookable after the end of June. I sure will miss seeing the B1900s!

Regarding PHF, I think that the airport draws the majority of its crowd from the Peninsula region, which is large enough to sustain the schedules DL, FL, and US have. The airport is a much more convienient option for those from Newport News/Hampton to Williamsburg than having to drive the nightmare known as I-64 across the water down to ORF.

One quick question: Does anyone know how US does on its ORF-PIT route?
All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
 
r311music
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:54 am

Did anyone mention the TPA ns coming from WN?
confusing use of time
 
highliner2
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:55 pm

Anybody know why every couple of months a CO 735 operates the last EWR-ORF flight of the day and then the firt ORF-IAH flight the following morning? It's happening again this month. It usually occurs on a Wednesday, don't believe me? Check the CO timetable, it's occuring on the 26th and 27th of the month. I'm flying ORD-CLE-ORF in July, would love for some CO mainline but that's a bit of a stretch. Still, everytime I fly COEX into ORF it's packed. Maybe it's just coincidence. And no PVD-ORF is indeed a bit of a surprise. Seems like a route ready-made for WN.
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gocaps16
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
Anyone know who has the (majority) Navy air travel contract out of these 2 cities?

I was homeported in Virginia Beach and also assigned to a carrier in San Diego and everytime that ship leaves, they'll fly us out to San Diego via Delta Air Lines...everytime, from two week dets (CQs), COMPTUEX, JTFX, deployments, to ammo offload, which I have no idea why they'll send us even though we're supporting our squadrons and not the carrier itself.

Nonstop to SAN would be nice, but I don't mind the extra layover. However, I've also done many nonstop flights to NASNI on the C-40.

[Edited 2007-06-16 13:59:59]
 
flynavy
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:53 am

I think if you ever see an ORF-SAN route it will undoubtedly be on Southwest - hands down. ORF definitely has the room to grow - there are some unused gates (including the customs-equipped gate 1, which was to be used by Monarch in May until that service fell through). The BNA-ORF flight ended a few months ago - it was never really advertised locally and was a "tag-on" to one of their BNA sectors.

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
US bring in mainline to CLT (other stations PHL, PIT, LGA, DCA, RDU)

Actually, that isn't the case. US also flies mainline ORF-PHL, I just flew this route on Monday night on a 737-300.

Quoting ERJ170 (Thread starter):
DL brings in mainline to ATL (other stations CVG, JFK, MCO)

Around three years ago Delta also operated mainline equipment to CVG - a mix of MD-88's and 757-200's. I could see Delta upgrading their ORF-MCO flight to mainline - but that would be a point-to-point route, and would depend on how hungry they are to compete with WN (and to a lesser extent FL out of PHF). As for the ORF-JFK flights, they are currently flown on Dash 8's operated by Freedom Air, but I read that their JFK Dash 8 flights are coming to end - no doubt being replaced with RJ flights.

I can also see Northwest upgrading to Airbus equipment on the DTW flight - it is currently serviced by a DC-9.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flynavy
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:56 am

I think you'll also see jetBlue and/or Skybus start Norfolk flights in the near future - personally I think B6 would be a good fit. No one from Norfolk drives all the way to Byrd Field in Richmond to fly jetBlue. If that were the case, then FL wouldn't serve RIC and PHF - both airports about 45 minutes apart on I-64.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 8):
US also flies mainline ORF-PHL

Seems like they used to fly this route with more mainline some time ago. At least they've got two E-jets and a 733 in with the plethora of CRJs. ORF-CLT seems to have picked up in capacity over the last couple of years, though (4 mainline, 2 CR9s, 2 CRJs, and 1 E170 for the summer).

Any final word on the ORF-RDU flights?

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
I think you'll also see jetBlue and/or Skybus

I agree with you on this one. Also, what does anyone think about Midwest or Frontier as potential candidates?

Regarding PHF, what new routes, if any, could possibly work? Seems to me that DL could bring back service to CVG, and FL would do well on a PHF-MDW route (though in competition with WN out of ORF).
All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Flyusairways (Reply 10):

Any final word on the ORF-RDU flights?

Last day for RDU-ORF and RDU-CHS is 29 June 2007.
a.
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Last day for RDU-ORF and RDU-CHS is 29 June 2007.

Gosh darn it! That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the information.
All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
 
NASOCEANA
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:06 am

DL has added for the summer season:
FLT # 1486 ORF - ATL - Equipment B757
FLT # 856 ATL - ORF - Equipment B757

WN has added:

FLT # 1976 ORF - TPA N/S
FLT # 2240 TPA - ORF N/S
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SANFan
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting GOCAPS16 (Reply 7):
I was homeported in Virginia Beach and also assigned to a carrier in San Diego and everytime that ship leaves, they'll fly us out to San Diego via Delta Air Lines...everytime,

I'm still not sure if any or all on-duty military or civilian employees flying for the military are REQUIRED, due to special contract fares, to fly on certain cx (DL in GOCAPS' case apparently) or if the travelers have a choice of airline. That to me is the important factor in discussing the possibility of any n/s between ORF and SAN.

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 8):
I think if you ever see an ORF-SAN route it will undoubtedly be on Southwest - hands down.

WN would be my odds-on favorite to run such service as well but it certainly ain't gonna happen if military travelers between ORF and SAN have to fly on a particular airline. And I'm not aware of WN having any contracts with the military for regular flying (as opposed to charters) so I don't think WN would be the chosen one!

In other words, IF there is a preferred/required carrier for military traffic between ORF and SAN, that would have to be the one to fly nonstop as I would expect 70-80% of the O&D traffic in the market is military-related, right?

It seems to me that this is the perfect "specialty market" in an unusual city pair where there is a lot of traffic that would not normally be expected, that could support n/s P-2-P service, and make money for the cx that recognizes it as such. In any case, I hope we see it someday.

bb
 
flynavy
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting Flyusairways (Reply 10):
Seems like they used to fly this route with more mainline some time ago. At least they've got two E-jets and a 733 in with the plethora of CRJs. ORF-CLT seems to have picked up in capacity over the last couple of years, though (4 mainline, 2 CR9s, 2 CRJs, and 1 E170 for the summer).

Additonally, PHL-ORF is also served by Republic's E170. My return leg on Wednesday morning was on an E170.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 15):
PHL-ORF is also served by Republic's E170

Don't worry, I've got that covered under "E-jet" in my post.  Wink
All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
 
N2DCaves
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:46 am

I'm not sure how badly ORF traffic has been impacted by PHF, but PHF has been a boon to us on the north side of the James. The population growth in the entire region may have offset whatever traffic PHF has bled from ORF. Also beats ridiculous fares out of RIC (although they have moderated a bit since FL's arrival).

I witnessed first-hand the rapid decline of PHF after dereg and recall watching the last mainliners as they left.
It is nice to know that it has rebounded the way it has.

The early 80's were cruel to PHF. PI, US (as Allegheny), UA, NA and multiple charters operated w/ 727's & 737's daily up until ~ 1981 (poor memory of dates, but close enough).
All that remained were commuter flights on PI and US (Dash 7's, 8's and Shorts 330/360).

US did not resume mainline until ~ 1985 w/ 3 flights to PIT and commuter service to PHL (Nord 262's - Pocono Airways). The biggest complaint on the Peninsula side was the lack of service to the south. If you wanted to travel via ATL, RDU or CLT, you had to suffer the vagaries of the sole bridge-tunnel to ORF (as mentioned above). I worked for US @ PHF from 1986-1988 before transferring to PWM. I traveled to ORF to fly non-rev on PI to go to MCO.
My how the times have changed.

FL now has multiple flights to ATL, MCO, TPA(?) LGA. DL now offers an MD-80(!) to ATL along w/ regional jets. US serves CLT, PHL. Oddly enough, I see a market for ORD, DFW or some other mid-continent hub for PHF. Because the region is growing so rapidly while the infrastructure is crumbling (I-64), I know many who would much rather fly via PHF than commute to either ORF or RIC. Not to mention gas prices, either.

I know there has been talk over the years to build a new regional airport w/ bigger runways, and wider service that would essentially replace both PHF and ORF. We can't even fix the roads around here- I don't know how they would pull that off. I don't see it in my lifetime.

I'm happy to see new service at any of the -3- airports (PHF, ORF, RIC), but I would like to see PHF expand further.
Guess I'll just have to be patient.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
 
flynavy
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:50 am

PilotOnline.com recently had an article discussing growth at ORF, citing specifically WN's interest in expanding - most recently to TPA - but the article also mentions a PHL flight. ORF-PHL on WN would be head-to-head with US. The TPA flight is interesting considering FL tried PHF-TPA a while back. That flight didn't last long.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting N2DCaves (Reply 17):

FL now has multiple flights to ATL, MCO, TPA(?) LGA.

They have daily, year-round FLL-PHF. They tried TPA-PHF. It was very, very short lived. FLL-PHF last launched fall and has done very well.
a.
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:50 am

Perhaps we ought to start some sort of S.E. Virginia airport spotting club!

With regards to PHF:

Indeed it seems that the traffic levels at PHF have taken a decent rebound since US pulled out the mainline metal. I'm surprised at the number of FL flights that have been upgraded to 73Gs, and very pleased that DL continues to offer MD-88s to ATL. For a short while, Republic brought in an E170 for DL, but I have not seen one on the schedules for quite some time. The new parking garage nearing completion is an impressive addition to the airport, and there is word that a second wing of the terminal, along with a new runway, are in the works. The plan to lengthen the existing runway 2/20 appears to have fallen apart a short time ago following a series of issues related to property ownership and road locations. Right now, regarding the entrance of a new carrier, the airport seems stretched for gate space, as all seven gates/parking spots are typically filled overnight. Corporate aviation is also seems to be a much larger business for the airport than before.

Overall, PHF is usually a fairly busy operation, and I certainly hope it continues to grow!

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:17:34]
All nonstop flights are direct, but not all direct flights are nonstop!
 
N2DCaves
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:22 am

There was a time when the far side of 7-25 (PHF) was going to be used as a cargo ramp; remnants of it can still be seen, but interest waned and construction beyond the point of clearing the turf stopped. Since the Kiln Creek neighborhood complains about the noise now (newbies on the block), I doubt it will ever come to fruition. It's been about 6 months since I've driven into the airport, so all of the construction would be new to me, but I definitely can't miss the new tower.

The parking garage is long overdue, but better late than never.

The "new" terminal currently sits where the hangars for Tenneco and Noland Co. used to be. My dad flew for Noland in the late 70's and I got my first job working for Tenneco when they had a Falcon 20 based there. Tenneco owned Newport News Shipbuilding at the time and the a/c was available for use by the President of the shipyard. Anytime there was a launch or other momentous occasion at the yard, the ramp would be packed w/ a majority of Tenneco's fleet (3rd largest corporate fixed-wing fleet in the world at the time) + a/c from multiple other firms. As a kid in high school, I thought it was pretty cool that while friends were going to work at McD's or the DQ, I was on my way to the airport to work around some very impressive corporate machinery. The president always took the time to say "Hello" and would, on occasion, spend time just chatting with me after he arrived back from a trip. Fond memories and good times.

As for spotting, I recall the days when one regularly saw all of the above mentioned carriers + Hughes Air West, Southern, NW (Orient), Pan Am, + just about anything the military had flying go over my parent's house on final for RWY 7. It was always fun to see the occasional 747, NA DC-10, 1011 or other type of heavy metal pass overhead.

They still live there and to this day, when visiting, I always have to go to the window to check out who is arriving/departing.

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:26:59]

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:28:09]
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
 
EasyVictor
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:39 am

I have to visit that area for work next week. I am flying in from Atlanta, and my corporate travel department asked me to fly into PHF instead of ORF (both on Delta) to save over $300. I really don't mind, plus I get to visit PHF for the first time. I guess FL really drives the price down in this market.

On the way home, WN has a new evening flight direct from ORF to the airport 2 miles from my house - MDW. Glad to see WN added a pm flight out of there. You have to love Southwest. Neither UA or AA have mainline service from their hubs at ORD.

That area in general seems to have a lot of identity issues besides the airports. Is it a metro area? Is it Hampton Roads or Tidewater or Norfolk/VB? A lot of self-doubt.    Just kidding - but a great area - I love it. You do need to do something about 64/264 though. And I love the Norfolk airport in the middle of the Botanical Gardens. It is a shame it isn't busier.

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:41:57]

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:46:23]
 
flyusairways
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:44 am

N2DCaves: It sure sounds like you have some fond memories from the airport. It is certainly always neat to hear first-hand accounts of what the aviation industry was like in the Hampton Roads area years ago. How times have changed! Thanks for sharing.

IIRC, the large area of tarmac running parallel to 7/25 was going to be utilized for the Aviation World's Fair in 2003, but the event never came to fruition. Also, that new tower is truly hard to miss. I think it's something like 147 feet tall.

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:49:16]
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highliner2
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:14 pm

EasyVictor,

Being a southsider myself with friends in the Norfolk area, I too was glad to see Southwest add some frequency to the MDW-ORF route. I'll take a WN 737 over an EGF ERJ or worse - a UAX CRJ. With WN continuing to add capacity I hope to see some expansion out of ORF. Southwest is king of the short route, ORF-IAD perhaps?
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EasyVictor
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 24):
Being a southsider myself

Your signature says 'Go Cubs!' - Some southsider you are  Angry
 
n710ps
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:40 pm

ORF has no mainline to LGA as a note for US. It is an all express operation flown with a mix of Colgan Saabs, Peidmont Dash's and Wisky CR2's.
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Revo
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:33 am

Werent Monarch supposed to be flying to Norfolk from Manston, Does anyone know if this went ahead?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Revo (Reply 27):
Does anyone know if this went ahead?

Cancelled due to low numbers.. needed 80,000 to commence and only received a little over 8,000.

Alas, the 767 was too much.. a 757 might have been better... and probably to LGW.. but oh well....
Aiming High and going far..
 
NASOCEANA
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
Alas, the 767 was too much.. a 757 might have been better... and probably to LGW.. but oh well....

I thought they were going to fly it with an A330?

Just to note. I worked at ORF for 7 years for FX and during the summer months we saw a few diversions to ORF. The most notiable to me would be an AA 777 diverting from RDU.
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ERJ170
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 29):
I thought they were going to fly it with an A330?

if that's the case, then that was DEFINITELY too much aircraft... I think that if they used a 757, it would work.. and they need to codeshare with another airline so that if they offered the flight once a week, during they other days, they could connect back to ORF.. otherwise, if you miss that one flight, you are screwed for a week..

But that's something I think a lot of EU airlines should consider, a certain number of weekly flights to smaller US cities like the US airlines are doing..
Aiming High and going far..
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Highliner2 (Reply 24):
I'll take a WN 737 over an EGF ERJ or worse - a UAX CRJ

Wait. You'll take a 50 seat ERJ over an aircraft with economy plus and first?
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Humberside
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting NASOCEANA (Reply 29):
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 28):
Alas, the 767 was too much.. a 757 might have been better... and probably to LGW.. but oh well....

I thought they were going to fly it with an A330?

Was to have been a B767 (the only one Monarch has), although should that have been unavailable, you may have seen a A330 (or A300) standing in

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):
and they need to codeshare with another airline so that if they offered the flight once a week, during they other days, they could connect back to ORF.. otherwise, if you miss that one flight, you are screwed for a week..

Problem was that this was a charter flight - so codesharing etc was never an option

And the capacity of say two B757's a week would be more than one B767 a week. Allowing for the extra passengers attracted by more than one flight a week, based on the appalling sales for the weekly service, I still dont see how a more frequent service would have done better

Sadly I think the service was doomed from the start - it was based on local connections between Kent and Virginia - not enough to sustain a weekly charter flight. Therefore you need to attract passengers from all over the UK wanting to go to Virginia, and Kent International is in a very bad location for that.

Would LGW have been better? - yes, but would it have been good enough? - who knows, was their enough demand in the first place?

This is a good example of were it would have been best not to bother at all - the whole episode has resulted in wasted money and bad publicity for both airports
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highliner2
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RE: Any New News For Norfolk (ORF)?

Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:18 am

Over the CRJ, I'll take the ERJ any day of the week. But if UAL has the EMB-170 on that route now, that would certainly be an upgrade.
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