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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Tim

Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 41):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
its not too far away if all goes well

Indeed, they're already starting to build the massive chambers in france.

...I'm glad you knew what I was talking about... Wink

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 43):
if oil production peaks within the next 10 years it will have a significantly more damaging affect.

...actually, there is a lot more oil than the media states..but it is difficult to get to..... yes 

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 45):
hydrogen is just the storage of that energy.

...I'm sure you meant the hydrogen bonds....... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting KL577 (Reply 12):
That's not extreme, that's what is actually happening in many parts of the world (Brazil, Malaysia to name a few). Multiple studies are pointing to the huge threat for remaining patches of undisturbed areas caused by promoting bio-fuels.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 17):
Bio fuels are environmentally, economically and ultimately politically worse than buring fossile fuels:

Forrest destruction to grown more corn
Rising food prices in the 3rd world
political instability in the 3rd world
ultimately massive immigration fro mteh 3 to 1st world

True, and interesting to see such a point coming from the USA. But, warn you, the USA are suffering a lot from lobbying from oil companies, which, becoming increasingly unpopular worlwide, would find anything to defend oil... I'm not questioning any of these effects, but : the true point to raise is : what is the effect of oil exploitation on the problems brought by biofuels? Let's see:
Forest destruction: yes, major. Alberta's or Siberia's primary boreal forest among others is facing huge threats with oil prospection and exploitation.
Political instability: well, major again. think about Nigeria, Angola, Saudi Arabia, Sudan (Darfour), Chechenia, Iraq and others. how many oil wars on this planet, and how many countries with the world's most brutal regimes are actually living from our oil?
Food supply and food price issues may be less directly connected to the problem though, even though some countries with tremendous oil income still rank among the least developed ones (Angola, Iraq...), and by development, we include, not eclusively though, availability of food.
Massive immigration: well, even though some people are working on oil platforms, the rest of the country still does not find jobs locally...

Good to think, but one has to think critically.

And yeah, I was listening this morning again on the radio here in Canada how biofuels (sugar cane) helped to lower Brazil's dependence on foreign oil? Quite amazing indeed... Now how much rainforest has been cut to meet the demand? No one raised the point.

Back to topic: being better than last plane generation, yes, saving the planet, come on... Aviation has to get a green image from the public, so they are working hard to obtain it, à-la oil companies who claim that biofuels are worse.
When I doubt... go running!
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 47):
Sorry you are wrong with this; it is a common misunderstanding. Hydrogen only stores energy, it does not produce energy

There is no such thing as energy "production". Only energy conservation rules. All is about transformation of chemical/electrical/xxx/yyy energy into mechanical/thermal/zzz/aaa energy.

Energy in its economical meaning and in its physical meaning are two distinct concepts. This is where the misunderstanding might be.
When I doubt... go running!
 
warren747sp
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:14 pm

It's great to learn from Airbus that the 747 Jumbo has been saving the planet for the past 30 years!
747SP
 
kiwiflyer791
Posts: 120
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RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 50):
uoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 43):if oil production peaks within the next 10 years it will have a significantly more damaging affect.
...actually, there is a lot more oil than the media states..but it is difficult to get to.....

Well, you must know something more than the rest of us? As far as I am aware nobody really knows what the true figures are and when this event will occur.... that is why I used 'if'. Saying that; more reliable data around is pointing to sooner rather than later. And please don't start quoting the 'heavy' alternatives, this is not the forum to do that.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 52):
There is no such thing as energy "production". Only energy conservation rules. All is about transformation of chemical/electrical/xxx/yyy energy into mechanical/thermal/zzz/aaa energy.

Energy in its economical meaning and in its physical meaning are two distinct concepts. This is where the misunderstanding might be.

Sorry I was unaware that this was a scientific forum and that correct terminology was required? I should probably used the statement 'work produced' instead but I think most would have got my point.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 47):

Sorry you are wrong with this; it is a common misunderstanding. Hydrogen only stores energy, it does not produce energy and is therefore not a fuel. This is the same as electricity or batteries. The fuel is the energy that went into making these things in the first place.

It can be burned to release energy, which is how I think of fuels. However, it isn't a source of energy in itself like, say, uranium.

In rocketry it's very common to speak of liquid hydrogen fuel, even though everyone knows it can't be mined anywhere.
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Tim

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:09 pm

Ironically, one of my favorite comic authors created a comic to discuss this subject a few days ago. I am going to turn my reply over to Wes Oleszewski and his comic strip "Klyde Morris"

Big version: Width: 750 Height: 263 File size: 70kb


Further comics of this type can be found at Klyde Morris Daily Comics.


Sometimes, the things people will say to attempt to sell a product are amazing.
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 54):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 50):
uoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 43):if oil production peaks within the next 10 years it will have a significantly more damaging affect.
...actually, there is a lot more oil than the media states..but it is difficult to get to.....

Well, you must know something more than the rest of us? As far as I am aware nobody really knows what the true figures are and when this event will occur.... that is why I used 'if'. Saying that; more reliable data around is pointing to sooner rather than later. And please don't start quoting the 'heavy' alternatives, this is not the forum to do that.

.....nothing "special" in my comments....we've only extracted only about a 1/3 of the available oil......hopefully as technology improves, we'll not have to deal with the other 2/3s.....I for one believe the planet should move away from it....

..nuclear fusion, solar, geothermal and wind power could substantially ease our need on oil and coal.... yes 
"Up the Irons!"
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 5680
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RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:32 pm

So the hyper-rich individual who just purchased an A380 as his private jet can claim that he is helping save the planet....
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
mustang304
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:35 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Tim

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 39):
I'm not sure what your on about, though Isaac Newton predicted the next coming of Christ to be 2060 by decoding the bible.

2012 is the end of the Mayan Calendar, and some people believe that 21 Dec 2012 is the date of the apocalypse and the end of humankind.

That aside-
As for the Peak Oil situation, there is plenty of shale, coal and other sources of fuel that can be converted into syn-gas/diesel. It is just really expensive to do this. When oil prices get high enough, there will be a shift to these fuels. If they are able to ever get nuclear fusion to a stable point, that would be a major breakthrough, and probably a shift from oil/coal based fuels would occur, to other fuels. However, oil would still be used in the manufacture of plastics, lubricants and fertilizer.

The unfortunate thing about the Global Warming debate is that it has turned into a big political emotional issue. Science usually gets trumped by emotion and politics. Now companies are jumping on this "emotion" to sell their latest products. Governments are using this to push their agenda and will use it to control people across the world. It would be a better course to fund the scientific community and allow them to evaluate and debate the issue without interference of the media and the government.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 59):
The unfortunate thing about the Global Warming debate is that it has turned into a big political emotional issue. Science usually gets trumped by emotion and politics. Now companies are jumping on this "emotion" to sell their latest products. Governments are using this to push their agenda and will use it to control people across the world. It would be a better course to fund the scientific community and allow them to evaluate and debate the issue without interference of the media and the government.

I totally agree; the problem with funding science by government (and by anyone else, for that matter) is that the scientists who get funded are the ones that provide the results that whoever is paying the bills wants to see. Some science can be independently verified and this is less of a problem; but climate science is definitely not one of them. We cannot set up another earth and try experiments on it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
contrails
Posts: 1314
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:26 am

There's nothing like a little arrogance. He should be careful, he may have to eat those words one day.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 43):
I am afriad the above statements show your lack of understanding of this subject! Hydrogen is not a fuel!

Well I guess those hydrogen power experimental vehicles are just a figment of everyone's imagination as is the space shuttle. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 4):
Positive: The A380 needs less fuel and produces less CO² per pax and km than any other aircraft in the world. Therefore it is reducing emissions.

This is absolutely not true most of the time. In fact, it is only true in a the cases where an A380 is flying with all or most seats full and for long ranges. If an A380 is flying with 200 pax, it's fuel and CO2/pax would be attrocious compared to other planes. Similarly, even a full A380 on a shorter flight would prob emit more C02 than 2 783s.

And there in lies the problem with VLAs. They are only efficient if you can consistently fill most seats. If you can they become very costly in $$$ and CO2 emissions. The A380 has another problem. It must be both full and used on a long haul route (5,000 nm+) to be efficient.

Watch out for the next downturn or Asian flu. I'd love to see how EK will fly those 57 A380s with 100 passangers only in each.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
MrFord
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 9:03 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 59):
2012 is the end of the Mayan Calendar, and some people believe that 21 Dec 2012 is the date of the apocalypse and the end of humankind.

Now that explain a lot about the A350 launch date...
So sorry, that one was too easy!  Smile

I wonder, comparing a DC-7 or Connie and a modern jet (767, A330.. you pick), which one would be the more eco-friendly, on a per-passenger basis ? 16 hours endurance isn't nothing, especially back in the '50s!
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
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SEPilot
Posts: 5680
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting MrFord (Reply 64):
I wonder, comparing a DC-7 or Connie and a modern jet (767, A330.. you pick), which one would be the more eco-friendly, on a per-passenger basis ? 16 hours endurance isn't nothing, especially back in the '50s!

I suspect the piston engine planes would fare pretty poorly. Remember that they carried far fewer passengers and the planes had much shorter ranges. I don't have figures at hand but I'm sure that the fuel per passenger was quite a bit higher. Then if you figure that the engines had to be completely overhauled every 1200 hours and factor in the environmental impact of that, as well as higher maintenance on the airframe due to vibration on the engines, plus increased tire wear from more takeoffs and landings due to shorter range and the picture gets even worse.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15104
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
So you are agreeing with this post?

Nah, just reiterating and clarifying mine...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
This is just not true unless everyone lives in these large hub cities you are connecting directly. As soon as you fly the feeder leg to the hub, the A380 becomes a green killer.

But thanks for playing!  Wink

And no, I don't think the spoke to spoke model is one that is going to take off, which is generally what point to point means. It'll be hub to spoke.

This is because the vast majority of people either live in a major hub and need to visit a spoke, or live in a spoke and need to visit a hub, at least as international travel is concerned.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
Wow, Airbus is only one step away from the ultimate low in pandering... A380: Think of the Children!

Ah, the "Mrs. Lovejoy" gambit.

Quoting Kiwiflyer791 (Reply 47):
In the case of hydrogen at the moment, there is an energy loss when you convert the energy; the reality is (if science does not solve this problem) you are better off using the energy from the fuel directly rather than converting it into hydrogen.

Not if you can't easily distribute that energy. Hydrogen, like batteries and gasoline, allow for non-connected transport and use. So a car can run on hyrdogen, but not on the nuclear power it takes to make the hydrogen.

Using solar farms to make hydrogen is another option, one I think will become popular.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 50):
...actually, there is a lot more oil than the media states..but it is difficult to get to...

And a lot of the reason is political. California has a lot of oil. We just aren't allowed to drill it. And I don't really want to destroy our coastline and views. But to claim we are almost out of oil is silly. We are just not willing to get it.

But I don't think the answer is plowing over the earth to create maize farms...  Wink

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 53):
It's great to learn from Airbus that the 747 Jumbo has been saving the planet for the past 30 years!

ROFL

Quoting MrFord (Reply 64):
Now that explain a lot about the A350 launch date...

Back up... no wait, ROFL again!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Airbus: A380 Will Save The Planet - 1 At A Time

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 66):
And a lot of the reason is political. California has a lot of oil. We just aren't allowed to drill it. And I don't really want to destroy our coastline and views.

That would be awful, I am glad we have resisted drilling for oil off our coast. There are other alternatives. I just read an article in the paper about a project to utilize tidal power at the entrance of the SF Bay. Up to 35 megawatts of power. It won't solve all of our energy problems, but every little bit helps.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 66):
But I don't think the answer is plowing over the earth to create maize farms...

 checkmark 

If only fusion can come quickly then we will be set. Fusion to generate electricity and produce hydrogen fuels for vehicles.

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