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MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 47):
I'd go just as much out of my way and/or pay whatever extra it takes to avoid flying the Hunchback of Puget Sound as I would the Abomination340-- you know that! *slap*

Come on man. You can't put the 744 in the same category with the A343, you know THAT!  Wink

Maybe you're saying you'd like to see A333 service MSY-FRA....
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
You can't put the 744 in the same category with the A343, you know THAT!

...why? They're both f'ugly quads.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
Maybe you're saying you'd like to see A333 service MSY-FRA.

ooooh, I'd be all about that!  hearts   hearts   hearts 
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 51):
...why? They're both f'ugly quads.

Ah, but you see, one is "Queen of the Skies", and the other is....not queen of the skies.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 51):
ooooh, I'd be all about that!

You'd be all over that like a duck on a junebug!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 52):

Ah, but you see, one is "Queen of the Skies", and the other is....not queen of the skies.

...as Diamond could attest, I don't like queens!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 7):
However, I can conceive LH doing several flights from outside their hubs using a W pattern:

MUC-IAD-DUS/HAM/TXL-IAD-MUC
FRA-ORD-DUS/HAM/TXL-ORD-FRA

such W-patterns are out of the question since LH split up their ops into three different systems: FRA, MUC and their decentral airports. this means that each system has its own fleet and they are scheduled separately, e.g. aircraft based at FRA do not operate from MUC. i have my doubts that LH would stop to apply this logic so quickly after it has established it.

Quoting LHBSL (Reply 8):
AFAIK FRA-Orlando: A330 DUS-Miami: A343

i could see FRA-MCO happening, as it was rumored multiple times. there used to be a codeshare of LH on thrice weekly DE services to MCO, so it's obviously been in the cards for quite some time. also, Siemens has got some major businesses located at MCO, so it's not a leisure-only destination.

i think DUS-MIA is very unlikely. it would be very surprising if LH started to serve non-Star-hubs from gateways such as DUS, HAM, etc. especially since MUC-MIA didn't come back.

Quoting Lhpdx (Reply 14):
Seattle will not be happening...Lufthansa already operates out of Portland and Vancouver..........

don't hold your breath, dude...

Quoting Adicool (Reply 27):
MFM, CMB, DAC, SJO, GUA, TPE, MVD, SYD, MEL, and CTS.

none of them.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 38):
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 37):
LH held FRA-MSY (along with MSP) in its final three when it settled on adding PDX.

this is the first time i hear this, i have my doubts. when adding PDX, LH was definitely considering SEA and SAN.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
boeing743
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:54 am

I can't see LH come to MSY due to that MSY and New Orlean are not really 100% full yet after Katrina. They still have a lot lot of work to do in New Orlean and many airlines cut the service after katrina due to airport not full ready to handle normal service. They are still work on improve the routes services that they had before katrina. It would take years before any europe carriers want to come to MSY
 
flyyul
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:16 am

I think we will see Lufthansa push Munich expansion. The FRA expansion seems to be over, due to capacity and slot shortages at FRA.

I think MUC-MEX, MUC-SEA, MUC-YYC/YVR, MUC-IAH are all viable options in terms of North Atlantic routings.
 
Qazar
Posts: 200
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 49):
well maybe, but I think before AC will upgrade the service... sadly I do not see Canada as a priority for LH (really sadly)

The AC service is a LH codeshare and I believe that both airlines are satisfied with both the loads and the capacity presently on the route. When it comes to Canada LH has always been very comfortable with operating the codeshares on AC metal (which in my opinion has a better onboard service than LH). Look at Montreal - for years the city hadn't seen a LH plane land in it and yet LH always claimed it on its network. Tickets issued to LH travelers have LH flight numbers, LH ticket covers, LH banners and you only realized you were on an AC jet only when you got to the gate (unless you were an airline afficionado, of course!).

If LH launched additional services to Canada I would categorize it as the following in terms of priorities:
1) MUC - Toronto to complement the existing daily FRA rotation (LH) and the AC services out of YYZ to Germany.
2) MUC - Montreal becoming a year-round service: They'd start it with a 3-4 time weekly rotation during the winter season, slowly building it to a year-round daily rotation.
3) ZRH - Montreal: with the arrival of the additional A343 in the LX fleet, this service would be upgraded from the A332 to the larger A343 service
4) Launching an Edmonton service.

With regards to the US market, keep in consideration that it is quite a maturing market and therefore the annual increase in capacity introduced by LH would be expected to be lower than in most other areas considered to be more emerging (Middle East, Asia, and now Latin America). I believe that LH is looking to making its North American position more dominent in the cities it already serves, relying on its US-based Star Alliance partners to connect traffic to its metal and the formula has worked perfectly fine for them so far.

Besides its FRA operations, MUC has services to: JFK, EWR, IAD, BOS, ORD, LAX, SFO, DEN, and Charlotte - the latter being served only from MUC. I believe that in LH's limited targeted increase in capacity, MUC will always be a priority to adding new cities. Reasons: 1) Increasing MUC's position as a major LH and *A hub, and 2) limited slots and operations at FRA with only 2 active runways (3rd only for take-offs). Therefore, I believe any increase in capacity on the US services will start by seeing additional rotations from MUC added to already existing destinations served by FRA.

A priority is MIA. This city has not seen an increase in services for years... For as long as I can remember the same B744 has been flying to this city out of FRA daily. I also remember that MIA was the last city in North America to have its services upgraded from the B742 to the B744 when the former were being phased out (but that's irrelevant now). I believe new MUC services are imminent. Other possibilities, and in order of importance:
IAH, PHL, DFW, DTW. Considering that Detroit has just been upgraded with a 2nd service out of FRA (total surprise to me - I expected that service to be introduced ex MUC), I believe it will not see any new services sometime soon or the 2nd rotation may eventually transfer over to the MUC hub (which would make way more sense to me).

Considering how well managed the airline is in my opinion, I wouldn't be surprised of a dual strategy in effect for North America such as splitting their targeted annual increase in capacity between the MUC and FRA hubs. Example, if they set a 2% targeted increase in capacity they may aim that 1% be an increase in MUC services to existing destinations, whereas the other 1% be the introduction of a new destination.

For any new routes to be opened by LH, I would hypothesize (in order of importance): Phoenix (only US-based Star Alliance hub presently not served by LH), Seattle, San Diego, Las Vegas, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh.

Let's not take for granted as well the role that LX plays in the overall LH strategy. LX is on the verge of receiving further widebodies that they will most probably dispatch on many international routes including North America. LX will probably look at serving Star Alliance hubs in the US presently not served such as Washington, San Francisco (both only presently served by UA as a codeshare), Philadelphia and Denver. Also they will be looking at expanding to other important US markets not necessarily Star Alliance hubs such IAH, DFW, and DTW.

In conclusion, I believe that the North American market has become a market where increases in services will mostly be seen from secondary hubs to existing cities, whereas the FRA role will emphasize opening the new destinations to emerging markets such as the new Nonstops to Buenos Aires. In the future I see many of the cities presently served by LH with a stop to become direct services such as Jakarta, Manila and Kuala Lumpur as they seperate from the Singapore, Guangzhou, and Bangkok services respectively (I remember a time when all 3 cities - CGK, KUL and MNL - were served with nonstop flights for a short period). I also see FRA pioneering new services to such anticipated new destinations as Rio, Bogota, Sapporo, and other new services to China.

Sorry for the long input.

Cheers!
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Qazar (Reply 57):
For any new routes to be opened by LH, I would hypothesize (in order of importance): Phoenix (only US-based Star Alliance hub presently not served by LH), Seattle, San Diego, Las Vegas, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh.

PHX maybe be a star hub but a flight there would really only benefit people living in the west. LH already flights DEN-FRA, DEN-MUC, SFO-MUC, SFO-FRA, LAX-FRA, LAX-MUC, PDX-FRA, YVR-FRA, and are supposedly going to start SEA-FRA. People are not going to backtrack to fly LH out of PHX.
 
lhpdx
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:02 am

When are they starting FRA-SEA?
 
DL777LAX
Posts: 489
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting LHPDX (Reply 59):
When are they starting FRA-SEA?

Because not all Seattleites want to fly out of YVR. The border crossing up there on the 5 is a pain in the ass. Plus there is a market for the flight.
Blindly following anything is bad, unless of course your blind and your following a guide dog.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 55):
I can't see LH come to MSY due to that MSY and New Orlean are not really 100% full yet after Katrina

...the inner city, no. The general catchment area, nearly 95% of the 2005 population. Only about the ten thousandth time that this has been mentioned here  Yeah sure

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 55):
many airlines cut the service after katrina due to airport not full ready to handle normal service.

K, you just proved you don't have the faintest idea as to what you're talking about.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Avianca
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 54):
such W-patterns are out of the question since LH split up their ops into three different systems: FRA, MUC and their decentral airports. this means that each system has its own fleet and they are scheduled separately, e.g. aircraft based at FRA do not operate from MUC. i have my doubts that LH would stop to apply this logic so quickly after it has established it.

no, why should w-patterns out of question??? didnt they do the same years ago with the MUC-SFO 747-400 flights... it would be even the only posibility, as you can sure LH will not open a new 747/340 station

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 54):
i could see FRA-MCO happening, as it was rumored multiple times. there used to be a codeshare of LH on thrice weekly DE services to MCO, so it's obviously been in the cards for quite some time. also, Siemens has got some major businesses located at MCO, so it's not a leisure-only destination.

yes siemens has major business there but I still do not see how they could fill up the premium class, in my opinion we wont see FRA-MCO soon.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting DL777LAX (Reply 60):
Because not all Seattleites want to fly out of YVR. The border crossing up there on the 5 is a pain in the ass. Plus there is a market for the flight.

He asked when not why.

Quoting LHPDX (Reply 59):
When are they starting FRA-SEA?

It is just a rumor, your guess is as good as mine.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7088
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 62):

yes siemens has major business there but I still do not see how they could fill up the premium class, in my opinion we wont see FRA-MCO soon.

I think we will. They could fill it 3x weekly if they time it right.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 64):
I think we will. They could fill it 3x weekly if they time it right.

Specially we wont see the service as you already mentioned by yourself, they could only fill 3 x weekly flights... what sence would it make for an airline like LH to open a new base, etc... and only serve 3 x weekly flights if they can offer MCO via many other star hubs...??
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
DL777LAX
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:45 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 63):
He asked when not why.

Okay, I'm an idiot, I didn't have my coffee.

Sorry.

Umm... my crystal ball says it will be announced next spring just in time for the summer season.

I'm basing this on absolutely nothing.

Once again, sorry.
Blindly following anything is bad, unless of course your blind and your following a guide dog.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 58):
People are not going to backtrack to fly LH out of PHX.

Who said people need to backtrack to fill the flight?

The following are 40 connection city options to Phoenix for a Frankfurt or Munich flight onboard Lufthansa

RNO, LAS, SMF, MOD, OAK, SJC, SBA, MRY, FAT, BFL
ONT, BUR, LGB, SNA, SAN, PSP, TUS, SLC, COS, CLD
YUM, SBP, MFR, EUG, FMN, DRO, GJT, HSO, MZT, SJD
GYM, GDL, PVR, ZIH, ACA, SJO, ANC, BOI, GEG, SEA

People will backtrack, as they have for years. It is nothing new and it will continue to happen for years to come. Phoenix can fill a Lufthansa flight without backtracking.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 58):
PHX maybe be a star hub but a flight there would really only benefit people living in the west.

Sounds a lot like the argument that is going on about who will get frequencies to China..  rotfl 

The same argument could be made for Seattle service that has even less connection possibilities than Phoenix. Star Alliance has a hub at Vancouver. In addition Star Alliance already has service from YVR-FRA on Lufthansa. Seattle is not a Star Alliance, and without the incentives that Portland gave Lufthansa, I do not see Lufthansa entering the Seattle market without serious concessions to lure Lufthansa.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
vega
Posts: 1161
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting Qazar (Reply 57):
I believe new MUC services are imminent. Other possibilities, and in order of importance:
IAH, PHL, DFW, DTW.

I really can't see why LH would try PHL-MUC unless it was seasonal. US already has the route covered year round with average Loads at 80%, except for JAN-FEB (< 55%). Of course, LH could swap the code share for the route, which US might consider to free up a 767 for better year round utilization. Otherwise, since the Yields on the existing PHL-MUC flight are far from spectacular, I can't see US a willing provider of connecting traffic for a 2nd (LH) flight - particularly since they already heavily support the LH CLT flight.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 393
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:33 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:25 am

FRA - SEA will likely succeed especially in the summer months. There's a great demand towards the Pacific Northwest due to the various cruises in the summer times.

However in the winter months, demand would not be as strong
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eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 67):
The same argument could be made for Seattle service that has even less connection possibilities than Phoenix. Star Alliance has a hub at Vancouver. In addition Star Alliance already has service from YVR-FRA on Lufthansa. Seattle is not a Star Alliance, and without the incentives that Portland gave Lufthansa, I do not see Lufthansa entering the Seattle market without serious concessions to lure Lufthansa.

LH was originally going to start service to SEA until PDX lured them away. YVR has a large german immigrant population and LH has been in YVR for many years. Who says the flight has to rely on connections? SEA is a much larger business market than PHX is.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 67):
RNO, LAS, SMF, MOD, OAK, SJC, SBA, MRY, FAT, BFL
ONT, BUR, LGB, SNA, SAN, PSP, TUS, SLC, COS, CLD
YUM, SBP, MFR, EUG, FMN, DRO, GJT, HSO, MZT, SJD
GYM, GDL, PVR, ZIH, ACA, SJO, ANC, BOI, GEG, SEA

SMF, OAK, and SJC are relatively close to SFO. How many people are there going from Germany to Western Mexico resort destinations.... EUG is close to PDX and most in MFR can easily hop up or down to PDX or SFO. ONT, BUR, LGB, and SNA are in the LA area. COS is relatively close to DEN. How many people are going from PSP to Germany of vice versa... SEA is rumored by LH. If this becomes reality, you will see many more people flying GEG-SEA-FRA as opposed to GEG-PHX-FRA.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 69):
FRA - SEA will likely succeed especially in the summer months. There's a great demand towards the Pacific Northwest due to the various cruises in the summer times.

Sounds like a great candidate for Condor..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
DYK
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:29 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 70):
LH was originally going to start service to SEA until PDX lured them away. YVR has a large german immigrant population and LH has been in YVR for many years. Who says the flight has to rely on connections? SEA is a much larger business market than PHX is.

SEA is long overdue for a FRA flight. Rumours are very strong among LH in Vancouver that they will operate into SEA.
Not sure how well LH does out of Vancouver or even if they make money. Seattle would seem to be a more profitable destination with the business connections and summer cruise traffic which Seattle is expected to overtake Vancouver next summer. It will be a successful year round. Cant see PHX, not many want to travel to PHX in the summer.
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
hjulicher
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 38):
Europe, my thinking is that a very big portion of the pax on the KL/NW MSP-LGW and MSP-AMS are actually flying to/from somewhere else in North America.

- Funny you should mention this, as I am from the DTW area, and although most think we have a weak international presence on our int. flights, I cannot get on a direct flight out of DTW because of high loads and lack of availability, and therefore must connect in places like IAD or BOS to get to AMS. Who would of thought that a O/D passenger out of DTW couldn't get onto one of the 5 direct flights to AMS via DTW. They seriously charge much more for a direct flight out of DTW than a connection via IAD, EWR, or BOS.

If LH were to start a MSP-FRA rotation, you could bet that NW would restart one as well, making it much more difficult for LH to obtain the US O/D passengers that it would need to support the flight. I think that if LH started a MSP-MUC flight, it would be more sucessful, as it would be harder for NW to begin services to a new city in Europe, and one that isn't already flown to out of DTW.

I also was surprised that LH started a second daily FRA flight. Interestingly, as someone posted, LH seems to regard DTW as a high yeilding destination. Why else would they have added the capacity to DTW by adding a second flight instead of utilizing larger aircraft. Perhaps it was to stay competitive with NW's INT product, but I'm glad that LH is doing well in DTW unlike BA who is struggling. I can see LH adding maybe some Privatair flights to DTW out of secondary german markets, especially like DUS, which I see LH overtaking from NW if they do it correctly.

Secondly, I think it will be in either CO's, or NW's best interest to serve SAN-Europe with the 787. Basically they would have a monopoly on this affluent MSA, and I think it would be very beneficial for them. I hope the airlines realize such things when they have fleets that provide new options for so many cities. I also hope NW realizes that they should serve PHL - AMS. (Sorry for the tangent)

I really don't see LH expanding into MKE, or MSY. Although these cities are large enough to support a European flight, I think that it might be too difficult for a foreign carrier to do well there. I feel that LH has already saturated the US with flights to Germany, and any additional flights would be more for leisure travel, and perhaps would do well in the summer only.
Detroit Moves the World!
LH 442
 
LHUSA
Posts: 834
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 73):
I think that if LH started a MSP-MUC flight, it would be more sucessful, as it would be harder for NW to begin services to a new city in Europe, and one that isn't already flown to out of DTW.

I think an MSP flight for LH would have to go through FRA to make the India connections. There are several huge corporations (Target, 3M) in Minnesota with huge travel to India. If LH wants to get the high-yielding passengers I think in this case they would opt for FRA. You're right though... NW certainly wouldn't take it lying down. I mean they started DFW-LGA for heaven's sake  Smile. They also announced the second DTW-FRA flight shortly after LH did, but I think there is room for four dailies on that route (at least in the summer). The additional capacity has been very successful for LH so far.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 73):
I really don't see LH expanding into MKE, or MSY.

I would expect MSY before MKE, but even that is far fetched at the moment. MKE would be interesting though because there do have a strong German presence there and tons of UA Mileage Plus members who drive or fly down to ORD. However, I don't think it's enough to lure LH. I do think that we'll hear about some new US services soon though - maybe even this week.
 
LHboyatDTW
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:53 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 56):

I've heard from a few people I know in MUC saying that LH is thinking about the possibility of a DTW-MUC flight. I, like many other people, believe it will be a reality. I personally would give LH around three years until it comes to fruition.

Munich has plenty of ties with the auto industry (BMW HQ) and Lord knows so does Detroit, so I think LH wouldn't have much of a problem filling up business class on such a flight. With them also luring local O/D with group travel discounts, they can fill up the back quickly as well. I think it could start up as a 3-5x weekly flight with an A333. The only thing I'm wondering is how NW will react to LH if MUC-DTW-MUC were to start up.
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
LHboyatDTW
Posts: 764
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RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:35 pm

Furthermore, I agree with many other people that LH is more focused on FRA (if any) and MUC expansion. I'm not sure how many A333s and A346s LH has left to order, but they seem to have very few spares to operate out of a German city like DUS.
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:02 pm

Interesting to see the rumors of SEA-FRA yet again. Maybe this one will be like the SEA-CDG rumor, which finally came true this year. Of course, I'm sure LH is watching how AF is doing on their new route.

Quoting DYK (Reply 72):
SEA is long overdue for a FRA flight.

Very true. Once SEA gets non-stop service to FRA, we'll have all the major European hubs covered.

Quoting DYK (Reply 72):
Seattle would seem to be a more profitable destination with the business connections and summer cruise traffic which Seattle is expected to overtake Vancouver next summer. It will be a successful year round

Eh, the two go back and forth on cruise traffic each year. I think it's about the same. Of course, SEA is a significantly larger metro area than Vancouver, but Vancouver is more of an "international" city, largely due to the fact that it's the gateway to Western Canada.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 12):
Besides, Seattle is presently served by Star alliance partner SAS. I presume SAS wouldn't be very happy if LH became a competition on the route.

Doesn't matter that much. We just saw AF enter SEA-CDG, even though NW flies SEA-AMS, which makes two SkyTeam carriers. LH would cater to a different market anyways; SK tends to cater to ethnic and Scandanavian travel, and some connections throughout Europe. But as others have mentioned, SK has a very small presence outside of Europe. LH would open up many more connecting opportunities to India, the Mid-East, and some of the more obscure places in Europe. There is also a good amount of business travel between SEA and Germany, including T-Mobile's US headquarters, and the obvious Microsoft, Boeing, etc.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
As I said above, once the PDX-SEA route matures, there is no reason why LH could not open up a SEA-FRA service; PDX and SEA are seperate markets, the two cities are not that close to eachother, and the fact that SAS serves SEA is not going to influence LH.

Very true. The two could even complement each other. UA currently feeds the PDX flight with some SEA passengers.

The only thing I would worry about with LH adding SEA would be hurting the existing carriers (BA, NW, SK, AF). I'd rather see strong daily flights to all those hubs, than see another hub added into the mix which causes the other carriers to cut some frequency. For instance, SEA's Asian operation has lots of carriers (NW, UA, BR, KE, CI, OZ) but only NW and UA offer daily frequencies, which makes the flights to ICN and TPE less reliable for connections and business travelers. I'd hate to see our European flights end up in a similar situation. That said, if the market can support yet another European hub, you'd hear no complaints from me!
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 77):
only NW and UA offer daily frequencies

BR offers daily frequencies as well, the flight continues to EWR 3 times a week.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 78):
BR offers daily frequencies as well, the flight continues to EWR 3 times a week.

Didn't know that - thanks for the info!
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1960
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 54):
such W-patterns are out of the question since LH split up their ops into three different systems: FRA, MUC and their decentral airports. this means that each system has its own fleet and they are scheduled separately, e.g. aircraft based at FRA do not operate from MUC. i have my doubts that LH would stop to apply this logic so quickly after it has established it.

Well, I cannot imagine how else LH is going to offer flights from cities other than MUC or FRA, unless you want to do a lot of repositioning flights with A333s and A343s

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 56):
I think we will see Lufthansa push Munich expansion. The FRA expansion seems to be over, due to capacity and slot shortages at FRA.

Please bear in mind that MUC is running at capacity during all major LH waves, and you can hardly get a single slot from 0800-1200, 1330-1530 and 1730-2130. This is not going to improve until MUC gets it 3rd runway

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 76):
I'm not sure how many A333s and A346s LH has left to order

5 A333s (all due 2008 afaik) and 7 A346s (2 late this summer, 5 in 2008)

I also think that SEA and PHX are probably the #1 candidates with SAN being up there due to runway problems. MSY, MKE, MSP whatever are all merely possibilites.

So let's add a few:
What about MCI, STL, IND?

SailorOrion
 
fraT
Posts: 1184
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 48):
Well they are, but I saw a massive change when BA flew in as it seems as soon as they did that their loads were packed. They must have taken service from AC although AC has alread had the route in place for a while from FRA. Just thought that they would suit the City with it's imporved population and economic boom! Lots of Germany business doing business in Calgary. I see the loads on AC and Air Transait doing quite well so just an inquiry.

Where did you get this info regarding the Business Travel from Germany to Canada? Most companies who have Canada included in LH's corporate program (including flights on AC) have fares to Toronto and/or Montreal. Some have Vancouver but very few have Calgary. So I doubt that there is a lot of business travel between Germany and YYC. The AC flight gets a lot of feeder traffic from Star but besides some rich German tourists you won't find many Germans on ACs Business Class....
 
flyb
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Qazar (Reply 57):
If LH launched additional services to Canada I would categorize it as the following in terms of priorities:
1) MUC - Toronto to complement the existing daily FRA rotation (LH) and the AC services out of YYZ to Germany.
2) MUC - Montreal becoming a year-round service: They'd start it with a 3-4 time weekly rotation during the winter season, slowly building it to a year-round daily rotation.
3) ZRH - Montreal: with the arrival of the additional A343 in the LX fleet, this service would be upgraded from the A332 to the larger A343 service
4) Launching an Edmonton service.

Agreed. Rumours are still afloat within, that LH or AC is eyeing the FRA-YEG route after the successful launch of LHR-YEG. However it would be a mid 08 launch to ensure continued maturity of the AC route to LHR from YEG.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 78):
BR offers daily frequencies as well, the flight continues to EWR 3 times a week

Here are the frequency and flight times for SEA-TPE

1.34.6.
BR 25
210am-520am+1
B747-400Combi

.2..5.7
BR 31
420am-730am+1
B747-400Combi

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
I also think that SEA and PHX are probably the #1 candidates

Question I can see Seattle service in summer most definitely with the cruise traffic and such aboard a A340-300. However in winter time I see a decrease in demand. Is it possible to see a triangle route in winter time such as FRA-SEA-YVR-FRA with the A340-600? Or a FRA-SEA-PDX-SEA with the A340-600? Thus affording the route to maintain a year-round daily status?

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
SAN being up there due to runway problems. MSY, MKE, MSP whatever are all merely possibilites.

Regarding San Diego, could Lufthansa operate a route such as FRA-PHX-SAN-PHX-FRA with an A340-300 in the same manner that British Airways operated the DC-10, then 747-400 LGW-PHX-SAN-PHX-LGW? If the San Diego portion is proved to be of measureable means the aircraft could be upgraded could it not to a 747-400?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
LHBSL
Topic Author
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:10 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 79):
Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 76):
I'm not sure how many A333s and A346s LH has left to order

5 A333s (all due 2008 afaik) and 7 A346s (2 late this summer, 5 in 2008)

AFAIK the A330 will be delivered already this year and the A346 early 2008
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 83):
Question I can see Seattle service in summer most definitely with the cruise traffic and such aboard a A340-300. However in winter time I see a decrease in demand. Is it possible to see a triangle route in winter time such as FRA-SEA-YVR-FRA with the A340-600? Or a FRA-SEA-PDX-SEA with the A340-600? Thus affording the route to maintain a year-round daily status

Europeans are not really that interested in Alaska cruises, its a small (but growning) market and many Alaskan cruises depart from Vancouver.....Alaska is magnificent, but so it Scandanavia which is about 10 hours closer by air (and a lot cheaper to get to). If LH were to launch FRA-SEA, it would not be to offer nonstop seats to low yeilding vacationers going on one week Alaska cruises....there is little money to be made in that market. Its all about business traffic and premium pax and higher yeilding traffic travelling beyond Germany; if LH is convinced that SEA can support those markets, a flight will be launched.

I dont see SEA being paired with either YVR or PDX either, YVR and PDX are already established markets, why mess with them? Muli-destination flights really dont work well in today's market....no one (especially business travellers) like enroute stops, especially if they are flying to destinations beyond Germany. It harms yeilds......if LH's research indciates that SEA can make it on its own, a service will be introduced, otherwise my guess is that LH will look for other opportunities in the US or worldwide.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 83):

Regarding San Diego, could Lufthansa operate a route such as FRA-PHX-SAN-PHX-FRA with an A340-300 in the same manner that British Airways operated the DC-10, then 747-400 LGW-PHX-SAN-PHX-LGW? If the San Diego portion is proved to be of measureable means the aircraft could be upgraded could it not to a 747-400?

-JD

Its so hard to predict if that would work......such a pairing could help the PHX flight (if LH is really interested in returning, which is another question in itself, I am not as convinced as you are!) and the fact that flying nonstop from SAN to Europe is a ""economic challenge"" (due to load restrictions necessary) make the one-stop/one-plane service an acceptable alternative. But the entire idea seems very ""un-Lufthansa"" to me and my guess is that the airline would rather fly nonstop to one or both of the cities and will not do a pairing.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Flyb (Reply 82):
Agreed. Rumours are still afloat within, that LH or AC is eyeing the FRA-YEG route after the successful launch of LHR-YEG. However it would be a mid 08 launch to ensure continued maturity of the AC route to LHR from YEG.

Oh please... give me one good source, other than some passed around 3rd hand information. What happened to YEG-IAD with UA?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 77):
Of course, SEA is a significantly larger metro area than Vancouver

Out of curiosity, what is SEA's metro area population?

YVR's is just over 2.1 million based on the 2006 Canadian census, using the metropolitan area definition used for the census. However there are other sizable communities in the Fraser River valley within about a 1 hour drive of YVR airport (e.g. Abbotsford) so the overall mainland population served by YVR is probably closer to 2.5 million. YVR is also the primary gateway for nearby Vancouver Island communities (e.g. Victoria, population 330,000).
 
User avatar
SANFan
Posts: 5618
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 83):
Regarding San Diego, could Lufthansa operate a route such as FRA-PHX-SAN-PHX-FRA with an A340-300 in the same manner that British Airways operated the DC-10, then 747-400 LGW-PHX-SAN-PHX-LGW? If the San Diego portion is proved to be of measureable means the aircraft could be upgraded could it not to a 747-400?

This has certainly been discussed many times before here on A.net -- with about a 50/50, pro/con debate -- but those of us in SAN would certainly take it if it meant getting LH into Lindbergh finally. As I just mentioned in another thread, next year, when the 787 starts flying the globe, I expect lots of news regarding SAN will be forthcoming and I would expect n/s service to Europe to be amongst that news. (SAN is the largest US market without n/s service to Europe -- 522 pax/day each way. Source: DBIB YE 2Q2006 Seabury APG per SDCRAA Presentation on 1/11/07)

If LH is interested in SAN (as has been the rumor for years now) this might be a real good time to get a foot in the door and establish itself in the market even if it is via a direct/1-stop flight (via PHX, SFO or even PDX or SEA if need be.)

There is lots of talk on this thread about SEA-FRA being eyed by LH despite having 2 nearby cities already served. SAN is certainly a different market and we have 1 nearby city already served by LH but SAN has no existing n/s service to Europe at all (or LON if that needs to be mentioned separately) despite a large amount of traffic.

bb
 
bartond
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:59 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20):
What, and why for? Air France couldn't maintain Dallas, Sabena couldn't maintain Dallas, American couldn't even maintain Dallas to Manchester, Madrid, or Zurich.. If this route is flown I would not by any means look for a daily service. At best I would say with an A330 at 3x to 4x per week. Departing later in the evening so as not cannibalize the current DFW-FRA afternoon service.

Air France was never a cash cow on this route but it didn't help that the French telecom companies tanked and dropped thousands of employees after 9/11. The Delta hub going bye-bye also added fuel to the fire.

I always thought that DFW-MUC might be a better option than DFW-FRA, even though the DFW-FRA flight has been around forever. DFW-MUC have more business ties in the high-tech sector and MUC is a gateway to more leisure areas, too. The only problem is that MUC doesn't offer the same connecting opportunities to India that FRA does...that's what makes DFW-FRA a solid performer.
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 87):
YVR's is just over 2.1 million based on the 2006 Canadian census, using the metropolitan area definition used for the census. However there are other sizable communities in the Fraser River valley within about a 1 hour drive of YVR airport (e.g. Abbotsford) so the overall mainland population served by YVR is probably closer to 2.5 million. YVR is also the primary gateway for nearby Vancouver Island communities (e.g. Victoria, population 330,000).

The SEA CSA is close to 4 million people and the catchment area is over 5 million.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Qazar (Reply 57):
The AC service is a LH codeshare and I believe that both airlines are satisfied with both the loads and the capacity presently on the route.

satisfied loads don't mean a thing. are they satisfied with the revenue from that service? i have my doubts.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 57):
If LH launched additional services to Canada I would categorize it as the following in terms of priorities:
1) MUC - Toronto to complement the existing daily FRA rotation (LH) and the AC services out of YYZ to Germany.
2) MUC - Montreal becoming a year-round service: They'd start it with a 3-4 time weekly rotation during the winter season, slowly building it to a year-round daily rotation.
3) ZRH - Montreal: with the arrival of the additional A343 in the LX fleet, this service would be upgraded from the A332 to the larger A343 service
4) Launching an Edmonton service.

this list lacks additional services to YYC. i think this could be under consideration.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
Well, I cannot imagine how else LH is going to offer flights from cities other than MUC or FRA, unless you want to do a lot of repositioning flights with A333s and A343s

why would they need repositioning flights apart from ferry flights for heavy maintenance? i suppose such a move would automatically mean that LH will take care their line maintenance could be performed at the same gateway.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 62):
no, why should w-patterns out of question??? didnt they do the same years ago with the MUC-SFO 747-400 flights... it would be even the only posibility, as you can sure LH will not open a new 747/340 station

why would W-patterns be the only possibility? they could base aircraft in DUS or TXL or wherever. this would not necessarily mean that they would base crew there. LH's separated systems do indeed call for separated fleets.

naturally, this would certainly demand a decent fleet size in order to reap at least some scale effects.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 62):
yes siemens has major business there but I still do not see how they could fill up the premium class, in my opinion we wont see FRA-MCO soon.

there are also lots of wealthy leisure travelers vacationing in Florida, some of them would sit up front as well. MIA is such a service with a very good fare mix albeit a leisure destination.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 75):
I've heard from a few people I know in MUC saying that LH is thinking about the possibility of a DTW-MUC flight. I, like many other people, believe it will be a reality. I personally would give LH around three years until it comes to fruition.

i'd be surprised if they wouldn't be thinking about all other US destinations from MUC. imho, the question is rather when not if. i bet as soon as NW or AA or whoelse infiltrates MUC, LH will instantly reply with its own service.

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 76):
Furthermore, I agree with many other people that LH is more focused on FRA (if any) and MUC expansion. I'm not sure how many A333s and A346s LH has left to order, but they seem to have very few spares to operate out of a German city like DUS.

if they've got more aircraft on order, why do you say they probably don't have spare capacities to operate out of DUS? there's been no official word on additional services next year, so apparently there are available aircraft for such an operation.

Quoting FraT (Reply 81):
So I doubt that there is a lot of business travel between Germany and YYC.

i think otherwise. now YEG could be a possibility to emerging oil business in Northern Alberta. but i think YYC is doing quite well.

Quoting Flyb (Reply 82):
Agreed. Rumours are still afloat within, that LH or AC is eyeing the FRA-YEG route after the successful launch of LHR-YEG. However it would be a mid 08 launch to ensure continued maturity of the AC route to LHR from YEG.

i could imagine that...
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
DYK
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:29 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:52 am

I have nothing to back this up but it would not surprise me Lufthansa pulls out of Vancouver after the Olympics.
maybe leave it to Air Canada, i heard from staff the route is not making money.

it would make sense to go into Seattle and eventually drop Vancouver, In my estimation?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
LHBSL
Topic Author
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:10 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:11 pm

Hi

Winter time table: Frankfurt-Orlando: 5/7 with A330 (confirmed...)

LH still considering an A330 Operation out of DUS...

Regards
 
LH506
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting LHBSL (Thread starter):
Hi

Winter time table: Frankfurt-Orlando: 5/7 with A330 (confirmed...)

LH still considering an A330 Operation out of DUS...

Regards

I wonder if this has something to do with the rumour that LH will sell its remaining share (25%?) in DE pretty soon. Maybe before they sell DE, they want to start some of the more attractive routes using their own a/c...
NOT FLOWN: 707 736 77L 788 78J 300B2 300B4 345 359 35J RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
fraT
Posts: 1184
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting LHBSL (Reply 93):
Winter time table: Frankfurt-Orlando: 5/7 with A330 (confirmed...)

Hi LHBSL, can you give a source?
 
764
Posts: 514
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:29 am

Didn't LTU recently drop DUS-MCO? That would be an interesting route, although for LH the connections ex MCO are not awfully satisfying.
From DUS, my money is on NYC or ORD (upgrades) or a new service to MIA. Taking into account LT's increased activity to the west coats, I could also see DUS-SFO or DUS-DEN. Both have excellent Star Alliance connections. Probably SFO more so that DEN, with lots of pacific routes.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26561
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:39 am

I think it is safe to assume that DEN-DUS is not going to happen. If they are serious about basing a long haul plane or two at DUS I would guess MIA and BKK and Washington as well. Having two planes based there they could have a daily to Dulles, three weekly to Miami and four weekly to Bangkok. West coast US is too long and too thin to work with the minimal connectivity that both sides offer in this situation.

[Edited 2007-06-26 19:43:59]
a.
 
LHBSL
Topic Author
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:10 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting FraT (Reply 95):
Hi LHBSL, can you give a source?

Hi FraT

I've got the Info from an employee who works as a pilot within LH.

Regards
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: LH New North Atlantic Destinations

Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting LHBSL (Reply 93):
Winter time table: Frankfurt-Orlando: 5/7 with A330 (confirmed...)

Is there a source for this new route?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI

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