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gh123
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AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:16 am

I got back from a trip to South America flying from EZE to DFW with AA on one of their 767 aircraft. It was also the first time that I have used their new business product.

I was not impressed, here's why:

1: The seat is overly complicated in terms of it's controls.
2: I'm not a big person but it trapped my legs underneath the seat in front and it hurt.
3: The entertainment system is a pain in the arse and had very limited choice.
4: It is next to impossible to get out of the seat to go to the bathroom if you have someone next to you.
5: The armrests are not very robust
6: The tables were almost impossible to get out of the seat's armrest without sending all of your drinks flying.

When I arrived in the US, I was told by someone to pick an airline and stick with it. I chose AA and have earned elite status over the last few years. In a highly competitive market with many airlines providing 'top notch' business products, I am pretty disappointed at 'my airline' for coming up with such a 'third rate' product.

One question I have: If AA are going to install these new business seats in their 777s will they have 3 abreast in the centre section or just 2.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
One question I have: If AA are going to install these new business seats in their 777s will they have 3 abreast in the centre section or just 2.

I would expect three since that is "standard" for the US carriers (at least) on 777s.
 
AA757200
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
4: It is next to impossible to get out of the seat to go to the bathroom if you have someone next to you.

This is absolutely the most lame criticism of anyone's business class seat. Without exception, the lie flat at an angle seats always make it difficult for the window passenger to get out if the isle passenger is fully reclined. Have you tried flying SAS, BMI, Lufthansa, United, old American, or just about any other airline in business class that does not have alternate directional pod seating, or single isle pod seating at an angle? This simply is not a valid criticism. What would you prefer AA do?

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
1: The seat is overly complicated in terms of it's controls.

The seat was not only tested by frequent flyers before it was deployed, but it was also tested with infrequent flyers, who are not used to the more sophisticated features and controls found in first and business class cabins of most airlines. I find it hard to believe a savy Britt like yourself could not figure them out.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
3: The entertainment system is a pain in the arse and had very limited choice.

Same as above. These features are tested by frequent flyers, children, and infrequent flyers. I don't see how you found them a literal pain in the arse, as they are quite simplistic, and much easier to use than the old DVD players. In addition, the available selection is far more up to date and robust then on flights that utilize the DVD players.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
5: The armrests are not very robust

The first I have heard anyone mention.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
6: The tables were almost impossible to get out of the seat's armrest without sending all of your drinks flying.

Have never experienced this, and have been on 6 flights with said new business class seats. Perhaps you should have asked for help?

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
When I arrived in the US, I was told by someone to pick an airline and stick with it. I chose AA and have earned elite status over the last few years. In a highly competitive market with many airlines providing 'top notch' business products, I am pretty disappointed at 'my airline' for coming up with such a 'third rate' product.

AA has the most modern business class cabin offered by any domestic US airline. That will change soon, as UA and DL move through their upgrades. For the most part, the seats will be in the same playing field though, and there is no reason to expect the US airlines to roll out an EK or SQ type business class, because the economics of it do not make sense.
 
CV880
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I would expect three since that is "standard" for the US carriers (at least) on 777s.

Maybe standard on AA/UA, but not on CO/DL where it's 2-2-2.
 
SQCXlover
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:24 am

I recently tried the new business class on AA83 from ORD - SFO. Even the product is nothing like BA, SQ or CX but it is actually not bad. I slept for 3 hours without waking up. Much better than I have expected. The table is nice and high, easy to get in and out. The only thing I found the seat cushion has gone thiner and smaller. BTW, no in seat viedo on this flight for some reason.
 
akizidy214
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
This is absolutely the most lame criticism of anyone's business class seat.

 checkmark  Anyone know if Flt 997 is scheduled to have a 763 with the new business seats this Friday?
DCA
 
AA757200
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 3):
Maybe standard on AA/UA, but not on CO/DL where it's 2-2-2.

Thats also not a three cabin aircraft on CO or DL. On AA and UA 777s, the business is 2-3-2. However, on their 767s, it is 2-2-2, just like CO and DL.
 
TrvlnMan
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
This simply is not a valid criticism. What would you prefer AA do?

It's valid if that's the way he feels. I've not experienced it, so I can''t say one way or the other, but this is just his opinion - And you're entitled to yours as well.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
What would you prefer AA do?

Why, how about...

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
alternate directional pod seating, or single isle pod seating at an angle

 Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
AA757200
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
Why, how about...

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
alternate directional pod seating, or single isle pod seating at an angle

Perhaps you should take the advice offered in your own signature to figure out why no US airline will ever offer such seating options.

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):


If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!

I don't think we need to spend a lot of time exploring the reasons why the math does not work out for US carriers in terms of return on their investment, and limiting the number of premium seats they can sell by offering a alternate direction pod seating or single isle pod seating. More seats equals more money, end of story. The marginal return on fewer higher priced seats does not equate for US carriers.
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 6):
Thats also not a three cabin aircraft on CO or DL. On AA and UA 777s, the business is 2-3-2. However, on their 767s, it is 2-2-2, just like CO and DL.

Although it is not a three cabin aircraft, they are still Business Class. And CO BizFirst is all in 2-1-2 on their 767.
 
PapaNovember
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:18 pm


MyAviation.net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photographer © Joe Statz






Are these the seats?
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 11):
Are these the seats?

Yes, those are the ones.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1635
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
1: The seat is overly complicated in terms of it's controls.

This is a first... too many options instead of not enough. FYI, for the next time you find yourself in this cabin, use one of the preset buttons if you don't want to customize your seat position. If you do customize your position and find one you really like, push and hold the memory button. This way, the seat will return to that position at any time during the flight with a single push of that button.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
2: I'm not a big person but it trapped my legs underneath the seat in front and it hurt.

There is room for improvement here, however, I was surprised the first time I laid down and found that my size 12 shoe fit just fine under there. I thought for sure I'd have to take my shoes off in order for my feet to fit. In the end, not as bad as I had expected.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
3: The entertainment system is a pain in the arse and had very limited choice.

Very limited choice? Quite opposite. This entertainment device offers more entertainment than most airlines, with up to 20 movies, numerous television sitcoms, over ten games, dozens of music videos, 12 channels of digital audio, news in both print and video form including current events and entertainment all on demand. And there's much more. I don't know what would be a pain about it, other than maybe you took it out of it's holder and didn't like that feature. Most do, but you can just leave it in the shell and enjoy it from there.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
4: It is next to impossible to get out of the seat to go to the bathroom if you have someone next to you.

Noted. Common complaint among all 767 operators with a business class, including British Airways. However, this new seat design lays low to the floor when in the bed position, allowing window seat occupants to step over aisle passengers more easily. Also, the hard shell of the seat in front of you gives you a great hand hold to assist you.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
5: The armrests are not very robust

Robust? Did they collapse on you? Maybe you think they're too narrow, which could be true. However, this was done to maximize seat width as much as possible. In addition, window and aisle seats have a drop down armrest to allow for more room when sleeping.

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
6: The tables were almost impossible to get out of the seat's armrest without sending all of your drinks flying.

Did you forget there are two tray tables? Although I am not sure why pulling the one out of the armrest caused problems with your beverages, there is another tray table that's not even connected to your seat. You could have easily placed your drinks there in order to more easily pull out the other table. The second tray table simply drops down from the shell in front of you.

No seat will ever be perfect as you can't meat everyone's demands. However, the numbers speak for themselves and passengers overwhelmingly rate the seat better than the previous product, and most passengers rate it higher than other airline business class seats. Perhaps the more you use the product, and the more you become familiar with it, the more you'll appreciate it.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting CV880 (Reply 3):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I would expect three since that is "standard" for the US carriers (at least) on 777s.

Maybe standard on AA/UA, but not on CO/DL where it's 2-2-2.

CO and DL have a hybrid first/business product. AA and UA have a 3-class product.
a.
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
CO and DL have a hybrid first/business product. AA and UA have a 3-class product.

That is true, but in terms of fare codes, its considered business class and when rated against other airlines, it is compared to those airlines respective business class. Therefore, comparing DL BusinessElite and CO BusinessFirst to AA's Business class and UA's business class is valid.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
4: It is next to impossible to get out of the seat to go to the bathroom if you have someone next to you

  
100% Agreed..

This is also a problem on other US based airlines as well. The design for this new seat leaves a lot to be desired. I think for the most part it is a step above the last AA J seat, yet this seat seems to underwhelm more and more people. From my experience with the new seat. I loathe it, a lot of people that I work with feel the same way. This is one of the reasons that our firm is opting out of a renewal of contract flying with AA on the JFK-LON market. We have opted for EOS due to the fully flat bed and more spacious personal area, and cabin environment.

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
This simply is not a valid criticism. What would you prefer AA do?

It is a very valid complaint, and it is not the first time this problem has been encountered with a passenger on the new AA Business Class seat. Hopefully it is a problem that AA is addressing along with others facing this new Business Class seat.

Does anyone know who decided on the new seat?
Was the bottom line in deciding on the new seat design - price?

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 13):
Common complaint among all 767 operators with a business class, including British Airways.

The new British Airways forward/backward style combination does not incur this problem. At least I was not bothered by it. However, I can truly understand what Gh123 is expressing as it is something I have dealt with first hand. It is a very valid point of view and complaint.

Additionaly here is a topic I found that expresses both praise and loathing for the new AA seat:
AA New Biz Class - Updates? (by Tonytifao Apr 14 2007 in Civil Aviation)



-JD

[Edited 2007-07-03 06:52:07]
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
MD-90
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 6):
However, on their 767s, it is 2-2-2, just like CO and DL.

Oops. CO's 767s are actually 2-1-2.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
This simply is not a valid criticism.

It absolutely is a valid criticism. Since this product enhancement is very very new, AA has known about the problem for some time, as other airlines (and their former product) featured this same issue. They had the chance to address it, and didn't.

Saying that the seat is lower and there is a sturdy wall to grasp on to as a means for support is not an improvement.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 6):
Thats also not a three cabin aircraft on CO or DL. On AA and UA 777s, the business is 2-3-2. However, on their 767s, it is 2-2-2, just like CO and DL.

Actually, on CO's 767s its 2-1-2 seating in J.

Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 15):

That is true, but in terms of fare codes, its considered business class and when rated against other airlines, it is compared to those airlines respective business class. Therefore, comparing DL BusinessElite and CO BusinessFirst to AA's Business class and UA's business class is valid.

Good point.

-------------

Yet another one of those cases when you cant please all of the people, all of the time.......there is no doubt that AA went to great expense in testing its new biz class product and only proceeded after the marketing research and test results indicated that they had a satisfactory product.

One negative thing that I have heard is that some pax dont like the shell of the seat infront that seems to intrude upon the pax space....from quickly looking at the seat (I have not personally experienced AA's new product but have been on an airplane with the new seats) its my opinion that although the seat is comfortable and offers a good amount of space, the shell takes away from the ""illusion"" of space that one normally gets when in a premium cabin. Maybe its mind over matter, maybe more......but in general it seems that reaction to AA's new product is ""mixed"".
 
DFW13L
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
4: It is next to impossible to get out of the seat to go to the bathroom if you have someone next to you.

This seems to me the most frequently posted complaint against AA's new business class. Last week I flew in Business on CO 757 EWR-BRS and NW A330 LGW-DTW, and they are no better. The CO was the worst in terms of space intrusion (but excellent inflight service). I saw two different guys climb over the BACK of the seat to get out to go to the bathroom via the row behind them! They all knew each other, so I guess that's why they did that, but the 757 Business class seat leans very far back, which puts the back of the seat just above your legs.

On the A330 the space was a bit better than the 757, but still it was a bother trying to get out.

The one business class that I have flown where space to get out and go to the lavatory was not an issue, was the AA 777. It has plenty of room where you can get out without bothering your seatmate. I have not flown a non-US carrier in business....yet!

[Edited 2007-07-03 07:30:50]
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
koruman
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:13 pm

I'm spoilt, given that Air NZ shares Virgin's product, but I'm staggered that Americans tolerate, let alone defend, the obsolete angled seats their appalling airlines continue to install.
 
MAH4546
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 18):

It absolutely is a valid criticism. Since this product enhancement is very very new, AA has known about the problem for some time, as other airlines (and their former product) featured this same issue. They had the chance to address it, and didn't.

You do realize it is a problem that can't really be solved, right? Do you honestly think that all airlines just choose to ignore this issue when their exists an adequate solution? No, they don't. They "ignore it" because solving something that is such a minor issue would lead to a less comfortable product. Thankfully, AA and others don't address it.
a.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 9):
I don't think we need to spend a lot of time exploring the reasons why the math does not work out for US carriers in terms of return on their investment, and limiting the number of premium seats they can sell by offering a alternate direction pod seating or single isle pod seating. More seats equals more money, end of story. The marginal return on fewer higher priced seats does not equate for US carriers.

I'll bring back this point since this forum is meant for discussion!!!

I apologize for my limited knowledge of the business but can someone other than AA757200 explain to me why the math doesn't work for US carriers as it does for EU carriers? Why can BA (for example) make profit on North Atlantic routes with much more quantity and quality of premium seats and american carriers can't do the same on the same routes? Why can EU carriers offer better premium products when labor costs in the EU are more expensive than it is in the US? How can US carriers stay competitive with the EU carriers across the Atlantic after US-EU open skies when their premium product is still below even after recent upgrades? Is a matter of american culture against european culture?

Thanks for the input
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BDL2DCA
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 23):
I apologize for my limited knowledge of the business but can someone other than AA757200 explain to me why the math doesn't work for US carriers as it does for EU carriers?

I can't really address all of your questions, but one reason why this is an issue is US corporations have more restrictive allowances for business class as a rule than their EU and Asian counterparts. To give an example, the US government restricts business class to flights more than 13.5 hours. Otherwise, you fly coach, unless you're a very senior official.

I have also noticed that pricing a business class seat say from LAX-SYD in US$ is roughly 2x as expensive as pricing the same seat from SYD-LAX in A$, equalized for the exchange rate.
146,319,320,321,332,333,343,346,359,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,744,752,753,762,763,772,788,789,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,E75,E90,F100,S80
 
gh123
Topic Author
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
I'm spoilt, given that Air NZ shares Virgin's product, but I'm staggered that Americans tolerate, let alone defend, the obsolete angled seats their appalling airlines continue to install.

Exactly
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
I'm spoilt, given that Air NZ shares Virgin's product, but I'm staggered that Americans tolerate, let alone defend, the obsolete angled seats their appalling airlines continue to install.

Delta Air Lines new Business Elite seat is along the same lines as Air Canada, Virgin, and Air New Zealand..

At least one out of the crowd listened..  wink 

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
atlflyer
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
I'm spoilt, given that Air NZ shares Virgin's product, but I'm staggered that Americans tolerate, let alone defend, the obsolete angled seats their appalling airlines continue to install.

The only US airline to install angled seats is American. United has not announced what their next generation business class seat will be and I guarantee that Continental will have a true lie-flat seat in BusinessFirst soon...

Delta is installing the same seat as some of the best airlines, Virgin and Air New Zealand.
 
EnviroTO
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:11 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 11):
Are these the seats?

Looking at that picture I would have to agree that those seats leave a lot to be desired. I have never seen international business class seats that jam your feet under the seat in front. For the person in the window to get out it would take far more than simply collapsing the foot rest which would normally be all that is required if you can't step over their feet or squeeze past. In those seats the person next to you would need to get all the way up. I would definitely prefer the business class seats I used on AA to Japan in November to those seats. It definitely looks like a lower pitch although it could be just the effect of that shell which doesn't move. It looks like in order to advertise a near lie-flat seat they have sacrificed window passenger mobility. The padding on the seats doesn't look as soft either.
 
incitatus
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 26):
Delta Air Lines new Business Elite seat is along the same lines as Air Canada, Virgin, and Air New Zealand..

At least one out of the crowd listened..

Not exactly. Yes but how many years it will take for Delta to roll out its new business class to the 767? Never is a very possible answer. Look below.

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 27):
Delta is installing the same seat as some of the best airlines, Virgin and Air New Zealand.

Let me quote the press release from Delta, so that you don't think I am making this up: "The airline also expects to offer a lie-flat option on its 767 aircraft." That is very ambiguous. It says maybe Delta will do it. It says nothing about aisle access or similarity to the seats in the 777 LRs.

There is good likelihood Delta customers will continue to enjoy their outdated, 90s-style, re-upholstered La-Z-Boy-like narrow seats in the 767s for years to come.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting DFW13L (Reply 20):
the 757 Business class seat leans very far back, which puts the back of the seat just above your legs.

It's because of this problem I brought up the hard shell and low lying bed on AA's new seat. They both combine to make it easier for window pax to step over the aisle pax when they're in the bed mode. BA's new seat on the 767 may be ok for some, but many others don't want to sit backward. You'll probably find an even divide over people who'd rather sit backward vs. stepping over their seat mate. Both set ups are less than ideal, but you have to work with the space you've got while maximizing revenue.

For all that is said on true lie flat seats vs. angled lie flat seats, I'm not sure it really matters. I work on AA's T7 all the time in first class and looking back, very few passengers lay their beds down completely flat. Many of them leave the back up a bit. I'll also tell you this much, I see passengers sleeping just as soundly in the 767 NGBC as I do in the Flagship Suite.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:04 am

I have to say AA need to sort out this seat!!

Firstly one thing i found when flying on it was the loss of storage space around the seats. they have little storage around which to me if you bring your book onboard, there aint no place to store it as they dont use the elasticy bins anymore but hard shells!!

Also i have to agree that the seat feels more squashed than the old laz-y-boys they had in the cabin which again i think is due to the shell around the seat and that cabin of the 767. I wonder if AA staggered the seats maybe then they could get more space out of the seats.
I have to say i have had no problems getting in and out of the old seats but in the new biz class i was told to go by the flight attendant when i had the chance when the person sitting beside me went!! She also said that it was stupid!!

I can also agree about the cramping of the feet when the seat is fully flat but i have to say i thought the controls were pretty simple!! Hold button down, seat moves!!
 
danild
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:29 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
The only US airline to install angled seats is American. United has not announced what their next generation business class seat will be and I guarantee that Continental will have a true lie-flat seat in BusinessFirst soon...

Delta is installing the same seat as some of the best airlines, Virgin and Air New Zealand.

Northwest Airlines also has angled lie flat seats on their business product. On their 330 and 747-400

Quoting Gh123 (Thread starter):
I got back from a trip to South America flying from EZE to DFW with AA on one of their 767 aircraft. It was also the first time that I have used their new business product.

Currently your options for business class to South America from the USA are DL (no lie flat), CO (no lie flat), UA (not even powered seats) and AA with some lie flat. I haven't tried AA's new business but I have tried DL's, CO's UA's, Virgin's, Thai, ANA, Lufthansa's and I can asure you that the new AA's business lie flat seat is a superior product compared with your options in that specific market. I agree some seats take some adaptating to them, but in the end, if you can have lots of room to sleep on, and great on demand programming is all that matters, Ah! except for food of course.
Danild
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1086
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:17 am

There have been a mix of terms that leads to confusion when refering to lie-flat seats, from what I understand there are not "true lie-flat" seats but "full-flat" seats.

Lie-flat seats are the new generation seats like the ones shown here by AA that don't reach 180º, they get to 160-170º. A lot of carriers are marketing lie-flat seats as 180º reclined seats when they are not.

AFAIK BA is one of the few airlines with "full-flat" on their J product that also offer F on their long-haul fleet.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
amirs
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
For the most part, the seats will be in the same playing field though, and there is no reason to expect the US airlines to roll out an EK or SQ type business class, because the economics of it do not make sense.

Actually they are getting the same seat as VS and CX has. That is in a much higher playing field.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 16):
Additionaly here is a topic I found that expresses both praise and loathing for the new AA seat:

Exactly, And that is why this topic is in the wrong forum. This should be in trip reports.
"The low fares airline."
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:05 am

I find it interesting the thread starter came on here to whine and cry about the new biz seats on AA...And then when everyone told him his standards are WAY too high, he says nothing. Funny.
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
AeroVodochody
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:24 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:31 am

well, if it's THAT bad. Fly economy Big grin
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
gh123
Topic Author
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 36):
I find it interesting the thread starter came on here to whine and cry about the new biz seats on AA...And then when everyone told him his standards are WAY too high, he says nothing. Funny.

Well actually I have not had the chance to participate in this thread due to the fact that I have been busy working.

There are many people who have tried to justify and defend AA's new business class but the fact of the matter remains - compared to it's competitors, it is rubbish.

My standards are not way too high either but I DO EXPECT TO GET WHAT I PAID FOR.

With many other airlines providing what I would call 'user friendly' seats, one would have thought that AA would have done the same.

It is the little things such as being able to get out of you seat to have a piss which make the big difference. As time moves on, one would have thought that AA would have provided a solution to something so simple rather than make it more difficult. Other airlines have 'stepped up', why can't AA?!
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 36):
And then when everyone told him his standards are WAY too high, he says nothing. Funny.

I guess it's a matter of interpretation. When I read this thread, it seems like the majority of posters AGREE with the OP.

In my opinion, the problem with American and United is that their reaction is similar to yours. Despite the AA slogan of "we know why you fly", they think customers that actually want an acceptable level of service have "way too high" standards. JetBlue proved that you can offer a superior domestic product at a low price and make money most years. EOS is proving that you can offer a superior international product at a low price and make money as well.

Now, I understand that UA and AA have major pension costs, and who knows what else. The appropriate response is not to blame the customer for wanting more. It's to go and do something about those costs; and if they cannot, then they need to close down shop and allow young, unencumbered, entrepreneurial airlines to take over.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 38):
My standards are not way too high either but I DO EXPECT TO GET WHAT I PAID FOR.

Or, What your company paid for.  sarcastic 

And as I said before, this is the wrong forum for your post. This is a trip report. Plus there are PLENTY of topics on this as well.
"The low fares airline."
 
gh123
Topic Author
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 40):
Or, What your company paid for

Not relevant. And this was not a trip report.
 
lesismore
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:26 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 38):
My standards are not way too high either but I DO EXPECT TO GET WHAT I PAID FOR.

What exactly were you expecting? Maybe you should stick to your original comment that you were not impressed. I haven't flown on AA's new business-class seat yet, but the only thing I might complain about is the angled lie-flat seat.

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 38):
With many other airlines providing what I would call 'user friendly' seats, one would have thought that AA would have done the same.

Have you actually tried the other airlines business-class offerings?
I'm a success today because I had a friend who believed in me and I didn't have the heart to let him down. - Abe Lincoln
 
AA757200
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 34):
Actually they are getting the same seat as VS and CX has.

Who is? This is news to me. I could be wrong, but I have not heard anything about a product along the same lines of VS and CX. Do you have any documentation of this?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 16):
It is a very valid complaint, and it is not the first time this problem has been encountered with a passenger on the new AA Business Class seat. Hopefully it is a problem that AA is addressing along with others facing this new Business Class seat.

It is not valid, for the simple reason that it is not germane to AA. Try flying SAS, BMI, Lufthansa, United, old American or just about any airline that does not have the VS style seating in business, and it is difficult to get out of the seat, if the person in the isle is fully reclined. The criticism is not unique to AA, in fact it's not unique to any airline that has more than one fully reclining seat in each row of business (non pod). I have been on countless SAS flights where I have been woken up by the person next to me climbing over me to get to the bathroom. The same thing has happened to me on multiple flights in the new LH business class seat. The point being, your logic would dictate that SAS, LH, and any airline that utilize the same types of seats (fully reclining non pod) have an underwhelming business class product. In point of fact, Privatair has the exact same type of seat, only about three generations older. I rarely hear people complaining about that seat, when in fact it is far inferior, and much more uncomfortable than SAS, AA, or LH. I would guess that the majority of people out here who bash these types of seats have never flown in them, and attach themselves to silly criticisms like these. Whatever floats your boat. I, on the other hand, practically live in business class seats of a variety of different airlines, and find this specific point of criticism to be poorly thought out, and don't see what value it adds. There are far more valid critiques, but you chose to latch onto a rather flimsy one, that displays a limited knowledge of the product. Why don't we start a thread on every airline with this type of seat, and say that it's tough to get out of the window seat when the isle seat is reclined.

Hope this clears it up.

Hope this clears it up.
 
piaflyer
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:56 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:30 am

those seats are absolutely terrible  crazy 
 
boeingpride800
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:05 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:59 am

why are people so picky! omg give it up who cares about airline business classes. just get on the plane sit down and you'll be there soon! other wise drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 43):
t is not valid, for the simple reason that it is not germane to AA

Hmmm. You know, your responses are very similar to many that I have received from AA personnel over the past few years:

"It's not our fault"
"Everyone else does that too, it's standard industry practice"
"You can't expect that for the fares we charge"
"It's not our responsiblity"

Makes me think - do you work for AA customer service? "American Airlines: We Don't Know Why You Fly"  Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 43):
Why don't we start a thread on every airline with this type of seat, and say that it's tough to get out of the window seat when the isle seat is reclined.

There have been countless threads in this forum having to do with airlines seats, and the people who hate and love them. It indeed is questionable as to if this is the right forum. However the poster has a very valid point in saying that you are essentially blocked from using the restroom once your seatmate has reclined. From that aspect it should be discussed.

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 43):
I rarely hear people complaining about that seat, when in fact it is far inferior, and much more uncomfortable than SAS, AA, or LH. I would guess that the majority of people out here who bash these types of seats have never flown in them, and attach themselves to silly criticisms like these

The above statement make no sense. In one breathe their is a response about AA being inferior, in the next AA is grouped as more uncomfortable than AA, SK, and LH? Can we get a translation for this?

The original poster did fly on the new Business Class seat and in turn has first hand knowledge of the number one problem with the current American Airlines seat design. The criticisms for what they are worth are not silly as a number of people have the same feeling about the American Airlines Business Class seat. This topic is not about SK or LH, it is about AA and people who are obstructed from using the restroom as their complaint against the new AA Business Class seat.

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 43):
It is not valid, for the simple reason that it is not germane to AA. Try flying SAS, BMI, Lufthansa, United, old American or just about any airline that does not have the VS style seating in business, and it is difficult to get out of the seat, if the person in the isle is fully reclined.

Again, this topic is in regards to the American Airlines new Business Class seat and problems that are facing American Airlines new Business Class seat. From experience I have not had problems vacating a Lufthansa, British Airways, EOS, or Air France Business Class seat. I however, as the poster has, had challenges trying to straddle a person while vacating my seat to get up and walk around, or use the restroom.

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 38):
It is the little things such as being able to get out of you seat to have a piss which make the big difference.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  That was priceless..

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 35):
Exactly, And that is why this topic is in the wrong forum.

It is a catch 22 I get where you are coming from as it is in part due to a travelled experience, yet it also touches on the widely known challenge facing the new American Airlines Business Class seat.

Quoting Danild (Reply 32):
Currently your options for business class to South America from the USA are DL (no lie flat), CO (no lie flat), UA (not even powered seats) and AA with some lie flat.

LAN..

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 29):
Yes but how many years it will take for Delta to roll out its new business class to the 767? Never is a very possible answer.

You have a valid point. However I feel that Delta Air Lines is going to be debuting the new Business Elite suite seat when the new 777LR are received in 2008. If those seats are proven to be a success, only at that point will we possibly see those seats offered on the 767 product. It is not a stretch as Air Canada has introduced a nearly identical product as well on their existing 767-300 and 777 fleet. At current the new interim Business Elite seat is being rolled out system-wide for the long-haul network.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 41):
Not relevant.

VERY relevant. You didn't pay for your seat, so don't go off saying you want what YOU paid for. That's a lie. And you make yourself look even worse when you do that.


I wasn't blow off my feet with DL's new domest first class interior when I flew it back in April. It wasn't fantastic. But it DID impress me none the less. In fact, for a domest first class product, it was pretty nice. Were there things that disapointed me? sure. Did I come on here crying about it? Nope.


You get to fly around in business class on someone else's dime. Shouldn't you be taking these complaints to the appropriate people at YOUR company?
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azstagecoach
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: AA's New Business Class - Not Impressed!

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 2):
AA has the most modern business class cabin offered by any domestic US airline. That will change soon, as UA and DL move through their upgrades.

Obviously "most modern" does not mean most improved, best, etc. As to why in AA's case they are not equal is beyond me.

Quoting AA757200 (Reply 6):
However, on their 767s, it is 2-2-2, just like CO and DL.

Dutchjet corrected this; it's 2-1-2 on CO --but 2-2-2 on DL.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
but in general it seems that reaction to AA's new product is ""mixed"".

Some of these responses here sound like statements from AA's PR agency, such as frequent flyer testing etc. Reply 2 in particular sounds like it was composed by an irate marketing department. Well if so much testing was done, then why did none of these testers point out how cramped it was? Did many of the frequent travelers polled ask for a 2 foot tall eagle logo when their seat reclines? I'd like to see the numbers on that one. Maybe AA did lots of testing, but testing and actual product are two totally different things. Just look at most cars from Detroit-- did all of the customer testing tell them to put out such total crap?

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