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kaitak744
Topic Author
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:38 am

Given Southwest's and Ryan Air's quick turn around times, I was wondering (on short flights) if they refuel when they get to all their destinations.

For example, can they do the following:

load up full fuel at LAX, fly LAX-LAS-LAX with out refueling at LAS. This way, the only have to pay a ground servicing fee once for the two flights.
 
pr1268
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:22 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:30 am

I doubt it. Seems WN is smart enough to identify where the short-haul flights with long-runway airports (obviously I'm thinking of LAX and LAS here!  silly  ) will allow them to save time (and $$$) by not refueling.

I don't think that WN flight I took back in July 2003 BWI-BHM-HOU-AUS (same flight number and plane) ever refuelled along the way...
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:31 am

Fuel loads are mission-specific, and consider all the assorted variables for a given flight. On some flights, it does make sense to tanker additional fuel (over the required minimum), but it depends on the fuel prices at the departure/arrival airports, as well as the length of the flight. If it makes economic sense to tanker, and the payload will allow some/all of the tanker fuel to be carried, we do so. Airliners (at least ours) rarely run around with full tanks, since doing so is wasteful, and restricts payload. We also tanker for non-economic reasons, i.e. if a station is low on fuel, and we need to minimize use there. If we bring in extra, that's less we have to take from their constrained supply.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
freshlove1
Posts: 1245
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:38 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Thread starter):
Given Southwest's and Ryan Air's quick turn around times, I was wondering (on short flights) if they refuel when they get to all their destinations.

For example, can they do the following:

load up full fuel at LAX, fly LAX-LAS-LAX with out refueling at LAS. This way, the only have to pay a ground servicing fee once for the two flights.

You would still have to pay for the ground servicing fees at LAX 2 times and LAS 1 time whether you take fuel or not. If the aircraft gets serviced, unloaded, catered, whatever you are paying to have it done. I believe on a route like that it may be able to be done. The only thing you wouldn't be paying for would be the fuel at LAS. OPNLguy might be able to give some more detail on it.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:04 am

Let me show an example for a 737-300... (Example fuel/weight numbers for simplicity, in thousands/lbs.)

LAX-LAS burn 5.0, min fuel load 11.0, max takeoff weight 119.0
LAS-LAX burn 5.0, min fuel load 11.0, max takeoff weight 119.0

Let's say the flight is completely full, with a zero fuel weight of 105.0

119.0 - 105.0 means that I have room for 14.0 on the fuel, so 11.0 is no problem. (Our 737-300s can takeoff at 136.0, but if you loaded it up to that weight, and burned 5.0 on the way to LAS, you'd weigh 131.0 but the you'd be well over the max landing weight (MLW) which is 114.0, so what's done on short flights is to add the 5.0 burn to the 114.0 MLW which gives you 119.0, and it's the max takeoff weight limited by landing.)

If you wanted to take enough gas at LAX to not refuel in LAS, you basically take the 11.0 you need to fly LAS-LAX, and add the 5.0 burn for LAX-LAS, or 16.0, but with that full LAX-LAS flight, we can only take 14.0 of the 16.0 needed to get all the way back to LAX. In that case, we'd take the 14.0, and only have to add 2.0 at LAS. If the LAX-LAS flight was only, say, 1/2 full, we could take the whole 16.0, and then some.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
kaitak744
Topic Author
Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:32 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 3):
You would still have to pay for the ground servicing fees at LAX 2 times and LAS 1 time whether you take fuel or not.

The reason I said that is because Ryanair has their own air-stairs on their 737s. If they carried enough fuel to leave the airport, and if they park at a remote stand and unload and load pax, they could pay no ground servicing fee.

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freshlove1
Posts: 1245
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RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
The reason I said that is because Ryanair has their own air-stairs on their 737s. If they carried enough fuel to leave the airport, and if they park at a remote stand and unload and load pax, they could pay no ground servicing fee.

Who is unloading the bags? and transporting the pax to the terminal?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 6):
Who is unloading the bags? and transporting the pax to the terminal?

Leprechauns?  duck 

(They could easily stand-up inside the cargo bins...)  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
scaredflyer21
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:10 pm

I know that Allegiant flies from SFB-SGF-SFB without refueling, although I am sure it is on the outer limits of the range.

[Edited 2007-07-06 07:17:21]
 
CupraIbiza
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:14 pm

Not sure about LCCs. But I do know that NZ did this during their rape of AN. For trans tasman flights, NZ would only fill up fuel in Australia and put it all on AN's account.
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
enginebird
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 5:22 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 6):
Who is unloading the bags? and transporting the pax to the terminal?

Pax walk to the terminal in many cases. -- You are right about the bags, though.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3678
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:14 pm

Even long haul aircrraft can tanker fuel when required.
Last summer there was a problem with our fuel supply at EWR for a week or so. One flight left ARN with a low load of pax, only about half full, and carried round trip fuel ARN-EWR-ARN. A B777-200ER. About 8 hrs each way.
 
KL577
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 11):
Even long haul aircrraft can tanker fuel when required.
Last summer there was a problem with our fuel supply at EWR for a week or so. One flight left ARN with a low load of pax, only about half full, and carried round trip fuel ARN-EWR-ARN. A B777-200ER. About 8 hrs each way.

I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago. Here in Nigeria there was a nationwide strike affecting fuel supply. Hence there was no fuel at Lagos airport. KLM re-routed the return flights from Lagos through Niamey to get fuel. But AMS-LOS-AMS is only 2 x 6 hrs flight. The 772 used on this route could have done this without refueling? But would have made this the plane to heavy for landing in LOS?
 
lmml 14/32
Posts: 2358
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:27 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:21 pm

Ryanair always refuels from Malta. Even after short flight from Pisa
 
aidoair
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:35 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:33 pm

I was on a flight from Dublin back to East Midlands last week and the aircraft arrived and was turned around in about 35 minutes and no fuel truck came to the plane at all, so it must be a common thing to upload extra if they are able to especially on the short flights.

Aidoair  Smile
 
nzrich
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:51 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 9):
Not sure about LCCs. But I do know that NZ did this during their rape of AN. For trans tasman flights, NZ would only fill up fuel in Australia and put it all on AN's account.

Ohh yes the statement that has been PROVEN false by auditors and everything .. NZ's fuel bill got charged to NZ ..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3678
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting KL577 (Reply 12):
The 772 used on this route could have done this without refueling? But would have made this the plane to heavy for landing in LOS?

Probably. It only works with low ZFW.
For example The max Landing weight of our B772 is 208000kg.
For an 8 hour flight this is the limiting factor in the load you can carry.
MLW 208000 plus trip fuel of 46000 kg gives a max TOW of 254000, well under the MTOW of 286800kg.
If you carry round trip fuel 254000 minus 46000 x 2 gives you a max ZFW of 162000 kg.
A typical full load ZFW is around 180000 kg so you need to leave behind 18000kg.
But with no freight and around 160 pax you will acheive this.
It only happened once to me. We had only about 150 pax, instead of the more usual 250.
Of course on the return leg you can fill it up.
 
aidoair
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:35 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:34 am

Have a look at this article from Thomsonfly on ''tankering'' http://www.thomsonfly.com/en/company_3902.html .

I think this has something to do with the question asked although i don't understand what it is Thomsonfly are actually doing, could any one explain more? Thanks


Aidoair  

[Edited 2007-07-06 17:34:54]
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3678
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Aidoair (Reply 17):
Have a look at this article from Thomsonfly on ''tankering'' http://www.thomsonfly.com/en/company_3902.html .

I think this has something to do with the question asked although i don't understand what it is Thomsonfly are actually doing, could any one explain more? Thanks

Basically the price of fuel at Coventry used to be so high that Thomsonfly tankered in fuel from the last stop. What they have done is get the fuel price reduced to make this economically not required. They will refuel at Coventry in the future.
Airlines pay a different price for fuel at every airport they fly to. If the price difference is big enough it makes economic sense to tanker fuel around. It is cheaper, but as the article says, it uses fuel and increases emissions.
I personally think tankering is bad for the environment and should be discouraged.
 
aidoair
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:35 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 18):
Basically the price of fuel at Coventry used to be so high that Thomsonfly tankered in fuel from the last stop. What they have done is get the fuel price reduced to make this economically not required. They will refuel at Coventry in the future.
Airlines pay a different price for fuel at every airport they fly to. If the price difference is big enough it makes economic sense to tanker fuel around. It is cheaper, but as the article says, it uses fuel and increases emissions.
I personally think tankering is bad for the environment and should be discouraged.

Thanks for that TristarSteve,

Aidoair  Smile
 
runga08
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:05 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
Let me show an example for a 737-300...

That makes sense. It is why the LAS-DEN-BWI flight would sometimes come in with FOB at DEN and if WX was questionable in BWI, we would only had to add at the most 2.0 or 3.0 more in DEN and still make the 20 minute turn.

To fuel the a/c to BWI in DEN when the tanks are bone dry, it would take a lot longer.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5):
The reason I said that is because Ryanair has their own air-stairs on their 737s. If they carried enough fuel to leave the airport, and if they park at a remote stand and unload and load pax, they could pay no ground servicing fee.

I am not sure but I think that 'ground servicing charges' are an American method of charging not used in the UK.

I think that the charging systems have to be different because operations are different. A classic example is that BA own T7 at JFK but neither own nor lease terminals or gates at either of their main hubs, LHR or LGW. Instead I believe they pay BAA a fee every time an aircraft lands at LHR based on the aircrafts maximum tale-off weight. (This in itself throws up anomalies. As all BA's 752s are currently used on short haul flights the BA aircraft have a lower maximum tale-off weight than is theoretically possible so as to save on landing costs.) I also believe BA pays BAA a fee for each arriving and departing passenger at both LHR and LGW. Finally I believe they pay a parking charge (by the minute) that is higher for occupying a terminal stand and lower for operating a remote stand.

At both LHR and LGW many ground services (like the provision of mobile air stairs for aircraft at remote stands) is either provided by the airline itself or, ar a cost, by a third party contractor.

While these charges cover all the services provided by BAA to BA (like the provision of the terminal, check-in desk and the gate and services like the baggage handling system and security) I believe that BA pays for services like fuel delivery and other aircraft services under a contract with the various providers. That is to say the providing company charges BA for fuel that it pumps into the aircraft including transport and pumping costs.

So that leaves me with two questions. Can anyone correct any of the above? And, so I can understand what happens on the other side of the pond, what do the 'ground servicing charges' cover and how are they calculated?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Runga08 (Reply 20):
That makes sense. It is why the LAS-DEN-BWI flight would sometimes come in with FOB at DEN and if WX was questionable in BWI, we would only had to add at the most 2.0 or 3.0 more in DEN and still make the 20 minute turn.

To fuel the a/c to BWI in DEN when the tanks are bone dry, it would take a lot longer.

Tankering into "hot-and-high" airports brings another variable or two into the equation, namely that you can't get the 114.0 MLW (on a -300, continuing with my previous example) sometimes, due to landing/approach climb, and/or max quick turn weight. It all depends upon how hot is is, and to avoid problems, economic tankering through DEN (or ABQ, SLC, etc.) can be minimized or curtailed completely. If the tankering is for a supply-related issue, you may have to bump some payload to make it work..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:27 am

Well im sure Airtrans on their atl to lax just might have to refuel.... Speaking of them i thought i saw where they were running 717,s out of dfw to lax..
i can see for 80 miles
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:35 am

Maybe this is how Emirates plans to make money with the A380 - only refuel in inexpensive Dubai?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 23):
Well im sure Airtrans on their atl to lax just might have to refuel.... Speaking of them i thought i saw where they were running 717,s out of dfw to lax..

I'm sure they have to. Tanker ATL-LAX with the next leg a short one (say, LAX-LAS, and yes, I know AirTran doesn't fly that) is usually pretty easy and could be accomplished without taking a payload hit at ATL. Tankering ATL-LAX with enough fuel for a long leg (LAX-ATL) is alot more problematic, and create payload problems for the ATL-LAX flight.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 22):
If the tankering is for a supply-related issue, you may have to bump some payload to make it work..

Is this why my luggage sometimes beats me home when I fly your airline home and back for Christmas  Wink I usually get a page telling me to come to the baggage office to get my checked bags...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
757lgw
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:34 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:18 am

I work as cabin crew for ryanair and this is a question i would like to know too, I generally dont pay attention as to whether we have a fuel tanker outside the window, but obiously when we are boarding and refueling we have specific procedues to follow such as arming the slides, this does not happen on every flight so im not sure whether we have refueled before boarding has comenced or whether we have enough onboard for the next sector.
I did notice though on a recent PIK-STN-PIK-STN-PIK day that we were refuling and boarding both times at stansted but neither time at prestwick, so i am wondering if ryanair would rather fuel the aircraft at stansted than prestwick as maybe its cheaper and on the shorter flights we can tanker enough without making the aircraft over its maximum landing weight.
I will keep my eye on in future and see if we are acctually getting refuled or not.
 
757lgw
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:34 pm

RE: Do LCCs Refuel At All Airports?

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:14 am

Well today i have the answer Ryanair do not fuel at every airport they prefer to fuel as few times as possible to reduce turn around times , today on a flight from STN to PIK and back the captain calculated that our zero fuel weight was low enough to carry fuel for both the STN-PIK and PIK-STN sectors meaning that on arrival in PIK we did not need to fuel.
Case closed !

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