aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 86):
Help me out: wouldn't a 787 to match A350-1000 be more like a "787-11"?
The 787-10 I have sen sofar seems more of a A350-900XWB / B777-200ER competitor..

We should agree to call, independently how easy or difficult would be to develop it:

B7811 : a B787 basin technology aircraft more or less similar as the A3510 (=/- 5%)
B7811ER: the same with the range extended to 10,000 nm
B788ER: A B788 with Engines and MTOW like the B789, approx. 200 pax at 10,000 nm

Quoting Danny (Reply 87):
That is true, however Qantas may be flexible to go with somewhat smaller 787-10 for the sake of commonality or with bigger XWB-1000 if they decide to introduce additional type into their fleet. Interesting times ahead

 checkmark 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 91):
If Boeing do decide to push MTOW to the maximum the 787's wings can handle, that will put them right at the 639,000lb MTOW of the A350-1000. Which is why I believe GE will build an engine that could power the A350-1000, provided they are also allowed to hang it off the A388R/A388F/A389 (to help spread the costs). I expect they will also design it to scale to support Y3.



Seem logical to me. Other opinions ??

aminobwana
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5028
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 99):
340 ???????

Sorry A380, of course!  Smile

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14178
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 100):
Actually, this is the price that Airbus offered the A350 with engines. Qantas receiverd a good discount, but still not as good as the launch customer, ANA, and considerably more then 60 million.

Not what I was told, and you are basically saying the A350OG airframes were offered at 30 million each which is laughable, Access Intelligence had the avaerage A350OG sale last year at 116 million.

Please read carefully what I said, I said 787, ex engine, apu, and interior, I have since looked up the 738 numbers, the average mean list price in 2005 when the QF placed their order was 67.8 million, that would suggest the upper band would be over 70 million, I was 10+ million low, my mistake.

Considering QF announced the GE decision sometime after the airframe announcement, it seems obvious to me they were not included in the airframe contract.

The historical means list prices on the 788 were
2001 - 118.7
2002 - 121.5
2003 - 124.2
2004 - 127.1
2005 - 130.0

Last year the average price paid for a 787 was 119 million (source Access Intelligence).
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 103):
Not what I was told, and you are basically saying the A350OG airframes were offered at 30 million each which is laughable, Access Intelligence had the avaerage A350OG sale last year at 116 million.

The only thing I can tell you is that you were wrong, and you are still wrong. Boeing's proposal to Qantas was without engines, Airbus' was with engines. You can laugh all you like, but there is a reason why Airbus needed a re-design.

Cheers
 
anstar
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:59 pm

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 71):
I disagree completely. There is no point in placing a massive order (115) for state of the art long haul aircraft only to deploy them on regional routes where the much cheaper 330 can do the same job. We are not going to see 787's on domestic or regional routes - they are far too precious an asset to be used in that fashion in the face of aggresive expansion from QF's major competitors in the next few years.

I doubt QF will bring the A330-300's back on domestic ops. Theyw ere a failure the first time round so I doubt they will make the same mistake twice. The 787's will be deployed on sone doemstic routes. The 767 is also a better capacity match.

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 82):
This AGAIN!!! QF DOES NOT "NEED" an aircraft between the B787 & A380! They may decide that an aircraft in this size would be a good business decision,

Then why are they saying the want a 330 seater to sit between the 789 and the A380?

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 82):
BUT for the past 25 years they have operated with nothing between the B767 & B747, the gap between the B787 & A380 is about the same size, so you can not say they NEED it. It may be a good idea in today aviation environment, sure, but QF MAY disagree!

QF is a different company these days. The gap between the 767 and 747 may have suited QF once, but it obivously won;t any more. Their are only 20 x A380's on order. That leaves about another 10 744's and 4 743's that also need to be repalced. A 789 is to much of a capacity drop, hence why QF said they want a plane to fill the gap.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 103):
The historical means list prices on the 788 were
2001 - 118.7
2002 - 121.5
2003 - 124.2
2004 - 127.1
2005 - 130.0

Now I need a little bit of explanation. The 787 can't have been on any list before 2004, right?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26523
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 106):
Now I need a little bit of explanation. The 787 can't have been on any list before 2004, right?

I suppose I can dig through Access Intelligence's site to confirm this, but the earlier prices would most likely have been Boeing estimates for the 7E7 and her earlier design studies.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 107):

I suppose I can dig through Access Intelligence's site to confirm this, but the earlier prices would most likely have been Boeing estimates for the 7E7 and her earlier design studies.

Or simply a result of a guess. Please do remember that the Access Intelligence is only guessing also.

Cheers
 
drexotica
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:44 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 64):
I am just surprised that Nav did not offer a modest prize for the visitor from the US that can pronounce Melbourne properly. We have had many ambassadors who after three or whatever still get the emphasis wrong. The small village they constantly refer to is just outside Cambridge (UK).

Baroque - I can't stand it - I ... must ... try ...

Is it appropriately pronounced Mel' - burn (emphasis on Mel)?

If I accidentally happened to get it right, it was only due to spending way too much time drunk around some other guys that I once worked in Denver for that were from Oz.
N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 26523
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 108):
Or simply a result of a guess. Please do remember that the Access Intelligence is only guessing also.

I expect it's a well-researched and well-grounded guess, however.  Smile
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 109):
Baroque - I can't stand it - I ... must ... try ...

Is it appropriately pronounced Mel' - burn (emphasis on Mel)?

Hi, DrExotica. 'Melbun', as in 'Brisbun.' The last syllable is pronounced the same way as the one in 'Boston' - or should I say 'Bawstun'?  

[Edited 2007-07-11 03:50:18]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14178
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 108):

Or simply a result of a guess. Please do remember that the Access Intelligence is only guessing also.

Shenzhen,

For your next homework assignment, in 2000 words or less describe the effect of the The Cape Town Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment ("Convention") and the Protocol to the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment on Matters Specific to Aircraft Equipment ("Protocol") on new and exiting transactions and the establishment of the international registry that is supervised by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

Be sure to discuss the following :
When the Convention and Protocol is applied;
Which states have signed the Convention;
The terms international interest and prospective international interest and how they apply to aircraft or engine sale or lease transactions;
The rational behind the registry;
How the Federal Aviation Regulations, Title 49 of the United States Code, and the Uniform Commercial Code were amended for to meet its obligations under the Convention.

You may wish to browse the international registry as part of you research https://www.internationalregistry.aero/irWeb/
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14964
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:52 am

MEL-bin
BAHS-tun
NEW YAWK
NAH-lins

etc.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 77):
I will dare to make a forecast: As QF has stated that they will purchase on the end 115 B787, meaning that orders for 50 frames are still open, if they would tell that they will order 30 of these or so (or more) B78X for 300 pax at ~10,000 nm, Boeing will develop these basing as far as possible on already existing designs, possibly with Trent engines. The results would be offered to other interested parties, as EK, BA. An alternative would be to develop, as already discussed, a derivative B788ER for about 200 pax, ~10,000 nm, with GE or RR similar to B789 engines.

I am sure many will say this will not happen, but that IMHO.

Complementing the above quoted, posted 7/9, see the Article of ATW 7/10
http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=9486
"At 787 unveiling, airlines already want more"

referring to nearly exactly the same

Could it be that ATW has read the several postings on this thread referred to this issues ???  

aminobwana

[Edited 2007-07-11 05:44:24]
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 112):
Shenzhen,

For your next homework assignment, in 2000 words or less describe the effect of the The Cape Town Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment ("Convention") and the Protocol to the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment on Matters Specific to Aircraft Equipment ("Protocol") on new and exiting transactions and the establishment of the international registry that is supervised by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

Be sure to discuss the following :
When the Convention and Protocol is applied;
Which states have signed the Convention;
The terms international interest and prospective international interest and how they apply to aircraft or engine sale or lease transactions;
The rational behind the registry;
How the Federal Aviation Regulations, Title 49 of the United States Code, and the Uniform Commercial Code were amended for to meet its obligations under the Convention.

You may wish to browse the international registry as part of you research https://www.internationalregistry.aero/irWeb/

Quite strange. Not sure what any International Convention has to do with you miss quoting a price that Qantas paid Boeing for the 787 airplanes they ordered, by a mere 20 or so million dollars per frame. Whats a billion dollars or so.....

However, if I do start my own country, I will read your conventions to ensure that my Subjects and I meet our International obligations.

Cheers
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 108):
Is it appropriately pronounced Mel' - burn (emphasis on Mel)?

Well you have it from the horse's pen, well keyboard. Your "Mel'burn" could have been right or so close nobody would notice, but as Nav says the last bit is more an "un". UK folk have a spot of trouble with it, but for some reason that "bourne" attracts the American pallet for a stretched and emphasised version that is one of these classic illuminated signs - "I am a stranger and really do not fit". My own experience of this in reverse was working in Kansas and asking my American boss if I could go down to work in Houston for a week. His answer was simple and really very useful, "Only if you learn how to pronounce it!"

Ikramerika's Melbin is better than the bourne, but it really is more Melbun.

I suspect that Qantas are still not telling us much of their plans, and presumably with good reason bearing in mind they have a Tiger threatening their flanks and who knows what might happen to Virgin Blue if the SQ connection is loosened.

They certainly are times of change, with the new much more efficient planes set against a counterpoint of huge economic growth in China and India and as a rub-off over much of SE Asia, high and probably rising fuel prices with terrorist threats a constant background. Sounds like the "wish" of the Chinese come to pass, interesting times.

Terrorist threats might affect some markets although curiously, it might be the reactions of western governments as much as the threats themselves that are the control. I imagine Qantas flights to Bali and Jakarta were not helped by the Aus government trumpeting a new threat in Indonesia when it turns out to be the old threat warmed up and served again as a new one. Could there be an election on the horizon? On such matters can the fate of major companies rest.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 115):
My own experience of this in reverse was working in Kansas

Just as well you weren't working in 'Arkansaw', Baroque,,,,,  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 86):
Help me out: wouldn't a 787 to match A350-1000 be more like a "787-11"?

The 787-10 I have sen sofar seems more of a A350-900XWB / B777-200ER competitor..

Thats what I thought too from the specs that were running around on this board.

If Dixon decides to order the A-350, then obviously his airline has decided it needs both types in the fleet. No big deal. Why does everyone make such a huge fuss over this? Both airplanes serve different market segments, unless B develops a 787 sized competitor to the 350-900 and 1000 which at present is the currrent 777.
One Nation Under God
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Increases Order For 787

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 116):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 115):
My own experience of this in reverse was working in Kansas

Just as well you weren't working in 'Arkansaw', Baroque,,,

That is easy compared with Wichita and Ouachitas not to mention a whole stack of related geological terms.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos