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davidkunzVIE
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 49):
I thought Lauda is independent?

Far from it, fortunately.  Wink
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johnnybgoode
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
I have also heard rumours within the industry in Germany that the family (I forgot the name) holding most of the Air Berlin shares has already bought Cirrus Aviation and is trying to get their hands on Condor, Condor (Union) to be managed by Cirrus ( non-union) to force the unions out. This way they would own about 95% of the German charter market.

nope, the Cirrus group will go together with DCA (Daimler Chrysler Aviation) and form a new aviation holding, which will be build upon two main divisions: business aviation and regional airlines.
however, IIRC one of the decision-makers behind this deal and an executive of this forthcoming aviation enterprise is involved in DBA or AB via granting it a credit line.
an almost done deal between C9 and DE which would have seen some C9 pilots operate DE 753s, just fell short. no cooperation between those two in the near future.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 34):
I also have to disagree with Air Berlin being an LCC. (...) Unless they focus onto a strategy and follow that I see a significant chance that those 787-8 will need new customers because AB will be out before that.

personally, i wouldn't paint such a pessimistic picture about AB. apart from the alleged insider trader, they are doing quite a good job.
i agree that AB is not a low cost carrier, not anywhere the business model of U2 and FR, and they have been. they are a member of IATA, they have interline agreements, and lots of other characteristics of network carriers. they are something of a hybrid airline but i still don't see any long term strategy in their doing. there has been so little talk of where AB wants to go with the purchases of LT and DI, i would really like to know where AB sees itself heading for.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
HAJ,CGN ,STR,NUE will most likely get some Air Berlin intercontinental flights.But it's tremendous pressure on LTU,since with this fleet he can do what he wants to tell LTU pilots to accept his terms or he just closes the airline.

i highly doubt they would indeed consider operating longhaul flights from so many German airports. i think they will focus on DUS and TXL/BBI, perhaps going head-to-head against LH at MUC since this is where they've got lots of feed.

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 41):
Except for some charter flights, he will focus his longhaul flying on his hubs, since he will otherwise not get the sufficient volume and yield to sustain longhaul flying.

right on spot.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting DavidkunzVIE (Reply 50):
Far from it, fortunately

Ahh Big grin so he cannot make mistakes anymore Big grin without consulting AB. I thought they have only 25%? Well, I guess if he gets some 787's he will restart BKK again. What do you think?.  Smile
 
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OA260
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:07 pm

Congrats to AB and Boeing. Looks nice in their livery.
 
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PM
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 53):
Looks nice in their livery.

 eyepopping  Nothing looks good in their livery!
 
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OA260
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 54):
eyepopping Nothing looks good in their livery!

I think it does!!! Very non cluttered and clean looking.
 
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PM
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
Very non cluttered and clean looking.

Or, as we say, bland, anodyne and dull!  Wink
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 54):
Nothing looks good in their livery!

 Big grin  checkmark 
 
columba
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
This comes as a surprise to me, given that their LT division would have been more likely to order new widebodies than AB itself. What's AB going to do with those 787s? Are they going to send them to LT or operate them on their own? Keep in mind that AB so far doesn't have any longhaul operations except through LT.

Nevertheless, I'm happy that there will be German registered 787s in the future. Big grin

I think by 2013 there will be no LTU left.
I am happy to see the first D-registered 787 in large numbers. As Thorben already said the question if Tuifly operates the 787 with a German registration is very unclear.
I think these 787 will mainly based in BBI and DUS which will be the "long haul hubs" for AB.
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
slz396
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
...

For somebody who puts into question every single Airbus order announcement, you seem to be very forgiving for this particular order announcement: I wonder how come?

The only thing known so far is Air Berlin has selected to operate 25 787 planes firmly, yet whether they are going to finance the purchase themselves, or rather take leases (BTW, could this be leases of already ordered planes?) is not known at present and will only be decided in a few years...

Let me take example of your much known method and simultaneously to this remark launch a hypothesis:

Maybe Airbus didn't like the idea of a customer which doesn't know if he will actually be buying the planes he commits to or rather just lease them, so they sent them packing and the original A330 deal fell through (not surprisingly Airbus wouldn't be showing much goodwill for a customer like Air Berlin, given the exceptionally strong demand for this plane from real customers) yet now it seems Air Berlin has found Boeing more willing to sign this kind of 'open deals'.

It is remarkable Air Berlin hoped to announce the widely rumoured A330 deal around Le Bourget, didn't get it done for financing reasons yet now all of a sudden it signs for the 787 on roll out day, yet again its financing package is not known: is Air Berlin in need of a manufacturer who is after some extra PR exposure through new deals, even if they are possibly only vapourware as the order could actually be just a lease (of already ordered planes???)?
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 59):
Maybe Airbus didn't like the idea of a customer which doesn't know if he will actually be buying the planes he commits to or rather just lease them, so they sent them packing and the original A330 deal fell through

Or let us put is this way: Maybe Airbus knows about the finacial situation of AB and therefore were not willing to sign this deal?
 
columba
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:00 pm

By the way was this order listed as an UFO before ?
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
TACAA320
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:01 pm

"

SEATTLE, July 7 (Reuters) - German low-cost airline Air Berlin (AB1.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Saturday it ordered 25 of Boeing Co.'s (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) new 787 Dreamliner planes, in a deal worth $4 billion at list prices.

The deal, announced at a Boeing event in Seattle the day before the first 787 is unveiled, is the biggest single order for the lightweight, fuel-efficient plane from a European carrier.

Boeing said it now has 677 firm orders for 787s. The first of the planes is set to roll out of Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant on Sunday, and is set for its first test flight in August or September and first delivery in May next year.

Air Berlin, based in the German capital, is Europe's third largest low-fare carrier. The airline is looking to add long-haul destinations to its route network with the addition of the mid-sized, long-range 787s, which can easily reach Asia and the United States from Germany.

In addition to the 25 firm orders, Air Berlin said it had taken options to buy a further 10 787s and had agreed purchase rights -- the loosest form of commitment in the process of buying an airplane -- on another 15.

Air Berlin did not announce an engine supplier for its 787s.


"
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKN0724283920070708?rpc=44
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
LY777
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:11 pm

This is REALLY great news; good to see that at least some European carriers are interested in this wonderful a/c!!!
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
azhobo
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:44 pm

Interesting old article from seattlepi on Boeing/AB history.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/296525_air20.html
 
AirRyan
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Alexchao (Thread starter):
Air Berlin has ordered 25 Boeing 787-8 airplanes, 10 options, and 15 purchase rights for additional aircraft.

Hats off to AB and their business model - if only WN could get off of their stubborn model and do the same before someone else starts up the LCC long-haul industry in the United States; by the time WN could get any 787's they would be done with the WA completely and just ready for international travel on their own metal.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:01 am

Wow. I can't believe folks aren't concentrating on this: This is the first order of the 787 from a "classic" low cost carrier. It is a huge deal because of this. Absolutely expect service to North America.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 71):
Wow. I can't believe folks aren't concentrating on this: This is the first order of the 787 from a "classic" low cost carrier. It is a huge deal because of this. Absolutely expect service to North America.

I know they didn't order the 787, but look at DJ's order for the 777. It's a similar scenario...though I be DJ winds up with the 787 eventually as well.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
-Donny Miller
 
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United787
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:08 am

Intheresting fact on the success of the 787. There are now more orders for the 787 than there are deliveries for the 777 & A330. I know it isn't comparing apples to apples, but it puts it in perspective!

787 - 677 Ordered to date
777 - 642 Delivered to date
A330 - 380 Delivered to date

[Edited 2007-07-08 17:11:22]
 
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PM
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 73):
787 - 577 Ordered to date

637 according to the Boeing website.

Quoting United787 (Reply 73):
A330 - 380 Delivered to date

Actually 475.

Quoting United787 (Reply 73):
777 - 642 Delivered to date

well, you got one out of three right!
 
columba
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 71):
Wow. I can't believe folks aren't concentrating on this: This is the first order of the 787 from a "classic" low cost carrier. It is a huge deal because of this. Absolutely expect service to North America.

Ab is not really a classic low cost carrier, it is one of their business models. They started as a leisure carrier flying mainly to holiday destinations.
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting PM (Reply 47):
Air Berlin signs contract to buy or lease 25 Boeing 787-8s

"...or lease..."?

......

Is this usual?

Not that unusual. Most recent examples include:

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...items/07_06_19_thai_A330_A380.html

TG's order of 8 333s.

Take a look at FI's report:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...is-2007-thai-firms-a330-order.html

Quote:

In a related development, Thailand’s cabinet yesterday directed the national carrier to lease the eight aircraft rather than purchase them outright.

The carrier is expected as a result to seek out sale and lease-back agreements on the newly ordered twinjets.

SQ's 19 333s will also be leased and are listed as firm SQ orders in the Airbus website.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 59):
The only thing known so far is Air Berlin has selected to operate 25 787 planes firmly, yet whether they are going to finance the purchase themselves, or rather take leases (BTW, could this be leases of already ordered planes?) is not known at present and will only be decided in a few years...

Boeing's press release clearly states AB's orders are firm orders. How AB is going to finance them is up to AB. It's no different from the TG and SQ 333 orders.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:53 am

It will very interesting were they want to fly them!

On the AB homepage is an official statement aswell.

But this cought my eye:

"With this order, we want to secure the long-term future of the Air Berlin Group’s long-haul capability," declared Joachim Hunold on Saturday in Seattle. Hunold emphasised that the order was primarily a future fleet replacement exercise.



So will they become LTU's than?
 
mrcomet
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 42):
Anyway, you are mixing up the783 with the 788

Dohhh!!! Sorry. And it made so much sense, too. Guess that's why I am not in the plane buying industry.
The dude abides
 
khelmDTW
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
Quoting FlyABR (Reply 40):
there is no such thing as a 767 with RB211s...is there??

Yes, there is.

767 with RR engines, hmm, just looks weird to me. I'm used to the PW, but if I remember, aren't the RR more powerful?
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration"
 
n710ps
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:12 am

A pair of my freinds are at the rollout and they say so far it has been one of the more amazeing things they have done in their lives.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 66):
This is the first order of the 787 from a "classic" low cost carrier.

apart from DJ maybe, AB is probably the least classic of any low cost carriers.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
haddock0815
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 63):
This is REALLY great news; good to see that at least some European carriers are interested in this wonderful a/c!!!

Maybe with some help???

From the Press releases on the Air Berlin Website:

The list price for the 25 firm orders is approximately 4 billion Dollars. Due to the size of the order Air Berlin has secured a significant discount although the exact purchase price is the subject of a confidentiality agreement between the parties.

And I thought it is only Airbus giving discount rates???

 angel 

Congratulations to AB and Boeing!

haddock0815
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 60):
Or let us put is this way: Maybe Airbus knows about the finacial situation of AB and therefore were not willing to sign this deal?

I think you are on the right track here. Air Berlin had a turn-over of 1.5 billion EUR last year, but has a capital commitment of around 6 to 7 billionen EUR in their books for the next couple of years (ordere A319/320, B737-700/800 and B787-800). Even if you include LTU with another 1 billion EUR turn-over (unknown if true, haven´t seen any current figures) you end up with a capital commitment about three times the current turn-over. IMO they are on the brink to over-strech their financial resources. Today´s stock market opening seems to confirm this, shares have dropped by about 4% with the DAX going up .5%... investors don´t like this decision.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
Deguoren
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:55 pm

Quoting Alexchao (Thread starter):
think you are on the right track here. Air Berlin had a turn-over of 1.5 billion EUR last year, but has a capital commitment of around 6 to 7 billionen EUR in their books for the next couple of years (ordere A319/320, B737-700/800 and B787-800). Even if you include LTU with another 1 billion EUR turn-over (unknown if true, haven�t seen any current figures) you end up with a capital commitment about three times the current turn-over. IMO they are on the brink to over-strech their financial resources. Today�s stock market opening seems to confirm this, shares have dropped by about 4% with the DAX going up .5%... investors don�t like this decision.

AB again up 5 %, speculations Ryanair considering buying AB; Deutsche Bank to buy up to a total of 11 % of AB. Despite AB is not profitable, its routes, fleet and structure is quite valuable. AB is not on the edge to bancruptcy - so there's no reason for Airbus or Boeing to refuse selling aircrafts. ROI seems also not bad, so my guess AB perspective: rather good.

I can imagine Hunold shreds LT - which has inflexible structures and strong union - and incorportes LT into AB, also replacing LT 's 330s with 787s.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting Deguoren (Reply 79):
so my guess AB perspective: rather good.

Unfortunately, I do not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation. AB has bought 25 long-haul planes. This is the equivalent of what is currently LH's long-haul fleet based in MUC. According to LH information I heard, NO long-haul route from MUC except JFK and ORD could be sustained without considerable (up to 90%) feed. So how is AB going to fill these planes? Bases in DUS and SXF/BER? I'm not sure. DUS does not offer any reasonable airside capacity for a hub operation and Berlin? It is still years away (as is AB's 787), but I don't see a large longhaul hub there due to incredibly low yields.

If AB/LT is going on like now, I see them dead within 4-5 years (not that I really want that). They need a hub. ONE hub. They need an alliance. They need to provide all the stuff successful long-haul carriers (LH, BA, SQ, AF, CX, ... ) have these days. You can't just buy 25 787s and hope that they'll fill. I wouldn't pour one cent into this company until they publish a sound business plan.

SailorOrion
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
You can't just buy 25 787s and hope that they'll fill. I wouldn't pour one cent into this company until they publish a sound business plan.

It appears a bit as if Air Berlin´s current fleet policy follows Ryanairs: "order in large numbers to get nice discounts and see afterwards where you will actually place/base these planes". Not such a good idea IMO. I´m rather going for the lower risk "have a sound business plan" approach as Lufthansa is doing.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 21):
there is no such thing as a 767 with RB211s...is there?? i thought only pratt and ge provided thrust for all 767 series aircraft??

yes there is.  Wink

Quoting Da man (Reply 23):
British Airways, Qantas, and what was China Yunnan ordered the 763 with RB211s. The reason this variant is not well known is because less than 100 were produced. I guess I should say so far because you could theoretically order a 763 with the RB211 today still.

QF leases its RR 763 from BA... QF never ordered them.

Quoting PM (Reply 24):
There certainly is. Ordered by BA and China Eastern (through an acquired subsidiary) and also operated (still) by QF on lease from BA.

 checkmark 

The BA/QF RR763 are configured different from most 763 in that they have 8 doors insted of the usual 4doors plus 4 overwing exits. Doors 1,2,4 are standard type A doors. Doors 3 are smaller type 1 doors... ie they are big enough for 1 person only type A can have 2 people moving thru them.
Doors 3 are permanently armed and have a smaller slideraft also.
Another difference with the BA/QF RR763 is the PSU oxygen supply units operate for twice as long as standard units (not sure why these were fitted but supposedly so the aircraft could cruise at higher altitudes or fly over terrain that would not permit descent to safe levels right away.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
If AB/LT is going on like now, I see them dead within 4-5 years (not that I really want that). They need a hub.

Yes and that rather quick! Even if they decide to built their PMI hub bigger and start longhaul from there.

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 80):
You can't just buy 25 787s and hope that they'll fill. I wouldn't pour one cent into this company until they publish a sound business plan.

I think it was mentioned in this thread before that they obviously havn't declared themselves what they really are. A LCC, a low fare carrier or a legacy carrier. If they get their act together it could work out quite fine.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 81):
It appears a bit as if Air Berlin�s current fleet policy follows Ryanairs: "order in large numbers to get nice discounts and see afterwards where you will actually place/base these planes". Not such a good idea IMO. I�m rather going for the lower risk "have a sound business plan" approach as Lufthansa is doing.

Both business plans ( LH and FR) are working very well. However I do believe that neither fits to AB as long as they go on like this and buying airlines, having new aircraft types etc etc. They are overexpanding their finacial capabilities currently. Maybe not the best comparison but SR brings a little to mind.

I do hope they will make it but the time is running already for them and it is getting faster and faster!  Smile
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:16 pm

As before discussed here in the forum, I'm not a fan of AB's PMI hub policy, but I must agree with buying 25 B 787 you can do nothing wrong. There are so many options what to do with this planes, trade them, fly them whatever and if they sell this planes to one of the large leasing companies they can have already some return to start with more capital in the pockets. With the opening of BBI there will be a good chance that this airport will develop into a hub with feeding flights from FRA,MUC etc. . I think AB will redevelop their hub system in the near future, latest as soon as these 787 arrive.

When they merge with FR what is speculated here then it would mean that some of the 787 will go to be based in Dublin to compete with AerLingus and it would fund the words of MOL that he want to create a new company for long haul flights, independent of FR. It could be that he decided its better to acquire a existing company with infrastructure to clean up the field and not to waste time on building up from scratch in order to compete very soon with LH and EI in all markets.

May be the try to acquire EI was just a foul game to make EU busy checking it while he concentrate to take another company over.

With this nice move Ryanair would take over all passenger segments. The premium pax,holiday tourists and long haul travellers mainly from LH and EI and further compete with FR classic against LH and EI for the low yield market.

Further more Air Berlin would much better perform as they would learn a lot from FR's management training and that will increase dividend.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
Deguoren
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RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting Alexchao (Thread starter):
AB/LT is going on like now, I see them dead within 4-5 years (not that I really want that)

Without reading their Annual Reports completly and especially their interim report of March 07 - since I am on vacation (but utterly bored because of the wheater...), I would on a first glace say that their "numbers" are not as bad as some suggest. Market cap/EBITDAR doesn't seem bad, debt ratio is understandable, considering they bought LT, DI and some others, and decreasing to a great extent. EBITDA ratio amazed me, it's surprisingly good. Look at AZ and you'll see what bad figuers are  Wink

Certainly, they need a strategy. But they also need to get the financials at e.g. LT straight, adopt the organization and implement it into the company. While they intend to keep LT as an subsidiary, I can't see any reason for that. (But they also said they'll keep on with DI (AirBerlin powered by dba...  Smile ), which has basically done away with, only some few ops remain) In the short term it seems that they try starting a "muli-hub" system. For example you can book flights on the AB website form MUC to HEL, but you'll be routed via TXL (?) or DUS, same is for FRA-DME, routing via MUC etc. Whether this is successfull ... we will see.

If they can fill up a 787 without feeder - I don't know, likely not, we got to wait what they'll do. However one should not forget about the market for travel packages ("Pauschalreisen"), that should - also for long haul dest. - increase (though not much). There 787s could be the replacement for the 330s and only some expansion.
Does anyone know how many seats LT sells to travel consolidators (TUI...) on long haul flights? What's the ratio? (E.g. MUC/DUS/FRA - BKK/CMB/RSW etc.)
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1474
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:46 pm

And if the LTU takeovers go's not thruw they will kill LTU with these 787's...
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 10):
Seems to me that the 787 is doing to long-haul what the 737 did to short-haul...bring it to the masses using one airframe. The DC-9 (and derivatives) came out around the same time but didn't have the numbers, and the A320 came later.

In the early days of the DC-9 program, Douglas couldn't build Diesel Nines fast enough to meet demand. This was large contributing factor to Douglas' eventual merger with McDonnell. The B737 didn't come onto the scene until the late 60s. Evidently, Airbus is not a fair comparison as they didn't even exist at the time.

This Air Berlin order is icing on the cake to top off a fantastic day for Boeing. They also couldn't have asked for a better day weather-wise either. Who says it always rains in Seattle, lol.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4119
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting Deguoren (Reply 85):
There 787s could be the replacement for the 330s and only some expansion.

Appears a bit unlikely as the ordered B787-800s will have a C30/Y242 configuration whilest LTU´s A330-200s have a C18/Y302 config. Difference of over 50 seats or roughly 15%. Too much for a straight 1:1-replacement. Rather a down-sizing. Interesting how they want to fare with the Plasticliner during the German summer season when you need every seat.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
columba
Posts: 5266
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:21 am

One a side note:

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Photo © Aviantex - Alexander Jonsson


Makes you wonder when AB and Boeing started to discuss the purchase of the Dreamliner  Smile
Air Berlin - gone but not forgotten

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