Boston92
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What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:57 pm

We all know that UA's birds are in need of replacing...not just updates, but actual replacement. I see UA keeping the 757 for the time being as well as the 320's, 777, and 747 for now. The 737 and 767 need replacement. The intl 767 will be getting a makeover soon enough, so here is what I see UA doing first... Large NB order to rid the 737's, and a small 787-3 order to replace the domestic 767...ALL coments are welcome...I just want to hear what you guys think

I think it IS time that UA orders some new planes whether you all like it or not...they need new ones.
 
Mir
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I think it IS time that UA orders some new planes whether you all like it or not...they need new ones.

What exactly is wrong with the current fleet? In my experience, the cabins are as good as any other US major, or better (at least in economy). They aren't in the best financial situation at the moment, and their current fleet is serving them fine.

I could, however, see an order of 77Ws in order to fully replace the 744s. And an order to replace the 737s will be coming, but if it were me I'd wait until the next generation of narrowbodies came around.

-Mir
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atlaaron
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
What exactly is wrong with the current fleet? In my experience, the cabins are as good as any other US major, or better (at least in economy).

Full Disclosure: UA is my favorite airline . . .

BUT the 737's are awful inside and certainly need replaced.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:12 pm

Domestic:

Boeing 737-300

International:

Boeing 767-300

-JD
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COERJ145
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I think it IS time that UA orders some new planes whether you all like it or not...they need new ones.

I don't think they need new ones, as the previous poster said, the current fleet is fine. All they need is to expedite the painting and upgrade the econ seat covers to the navy blue ones, as opposed to the 80s/90s colored ones.

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roseflyer
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Large NB order to rid the 737's, and a small 787-3 order to replace the domestic 767

I definitely agree that the 737s aren't great. However UA has been replacing many 737 routes with smaller CR7s and E170s. I don't really prefer the smaller planes, but they still have first class and have more comfortable seats. They aren't mainline, but in many markets throughout the midwest, UA Express Plus seems to work pretty well.

The 767s are probably the most popular domestic planes. They have the newer seats with winged headrests that were introduced in the late 90s. All of them have IFE. They feature 2-3-2 seating which is very popular in economy. Their biggest problem is narrow first class seats, but that isn't a huge problem. Those planes replaced DC10s, and will probably stay for a while. UA has a tendancy to replace domestic widebodies with their older international fleet. I'd expect 767s that operate domestic routes to not be replaced with new airplanes.
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FLYGUY767
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:33 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 4):
I don't think they need new ones, as the previous poster said, the current fleet is fine. All they need is to expedite the painting and upgrade the econ seat covers to the navy blue ones, as opposed to the 80s/90s colored ones.

How long will that take. The only thing domestic with new seats covers and cabins I have seen on United since they entered bankruptcy was TED and PS aircraft. I havent seen any of the domestic 763, 737, 319, 320, or 757 upgraded with anything I keep seeing the same old gray United Airlines seats. Each time more holes, and more dirty cabins. The carpets need to be replaced badly..

-JD
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
What exactly is wrong with the current fleet? In my experience, the cabins are as good as any other US major, or better (at least in economy). They aren't in the best financial situation at the moment, and their current fleet is serving them fine.

As some mentioned, the 737s and 757s probably need replacement within the decade. The problem with some members of the fleet (particularly the 767s) is that while they may be in decent shape, they will need to replace those aircraft merely to remain competitive on an operating-cost basis.
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eraugrad02
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:42 pm

There was a big rumor that UA wanted to get out of the short haul 100 seat class and lets express fly 100 seat aircraft. Im not sure how real that was but my brother whos e-170 f/o said that republic does have e-190 pay scale. So who knows. but i think it would benefit UA cost wise to maybe do this.
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dl767captain
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:42 pm

The 737s definately need to be replaced, as much as i would like ua to order 737NGs they will most likely go with the a32x, some of their domestic 767s are getting pretty old but im thinking they would move the international 767s to domestic and use the 787 to replace thos intl 767s (if they could get them in time) i think the 747s will be replaced with the 748, there are just those routes that need a big plane and ua seems to like the 747. It will be nteresting to see what they plan, but are they really in a financial position to order a lot of planes?
 
cch362
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:48 pm

How about the CEO?

With the way things are going, all this aircraft replacement talk is moot because UA's current strategy is to pave the way for a smoother merger by not making many capital investments.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:55 pm

I'm one of the few spoilers who thinks the 748i has no future at UA, not unless there are drastic upturns in US international travel.
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TedEx
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting Cch362 (Reply 10):
With the way things are going, all this aircraft replacement talk is moot because UA's current strategy is to pave the way for a smoother merger by not making many capital investments.

It does indeed seem to be going that way.
 
mah584jr
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
I'm one of the few spoilers who thinks the 748i has no future at UA, not unless there are drastic upturns in US international travel.

Well, I certainly agree with you so I guess you're not alone. I think the market calls for smaller aircraft with an increase in frequency, in which case the 748i wouldn't fit.
 
Mir
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
The problem with some members of the fleet (particularly the 767s) is that while they may be in decent shape, they will need to replace those aircraft merely to remain competitive on an operating-cost basis.

Tell that to NW, who is retiring some 320s while keeping their DC-9s because the -9s are paid for, and while they're much less efficient, they're cheaper to operate than new airplanes once one factors in the aquisition cost.

If UA buys 320s now to replace the 737s, they'll be at an operating cost disadvantage when the new Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies come out, something that isn't too far off now. If they refurbish the interiors of the 737s, they can last until the real cutting edge planes arrive, which will bring many more savings on operating costs.

-Mir
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N328KF
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
If UA buys 320s now to replace the 737s, they'll be at an operating cost disadvantage when the new Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies come out, something that isn't too far off now. If they refurbish the interiors of the 737s, they can last until the real cutting edge planes arrive, which will bring many more savings on operating costs.

Well, yes, but my point was mainly in reference to the 767 and what ever replaces it (which, on a size basis, would almost certainly have to be 787-8s.)
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:39 pm

anyone see the new c class seat yet?
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lijnden
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:41 pm

UAL has simply not the funds to purchase new planes. They will upgrade the existing fleet and fly for the next 5-10 years pretty much unchanged. I also think that UAL is not going to lease any planes soon. They have learned that planes on their own balance-sheet (like NW) is still the most efficient way of doing business.
The only major change we will see is shorter trip cycles due less ground time, thus creating a higher utilization of planes.
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dutchjet
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Simple answer, its management. Unless and until the current management of UA make a commitment to actually run the airline and invest in its future, instead of looking to sell off or merge UA with another carrier, its unlikely that we will see UA order any new airplanes.
 
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
What Will UA Need To Replace First?

IMHO, the management....
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warreng24
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Large NB order to rid the 737's

UA currently has an open, but deferred, order for Airbus narrowbodies. IIRC it is for about 40 airframes (memory is fuzzy and searches are comming up blank). It's been mentioned here on A.net many times.

The 735's all were delivered between 1990 and 1992. They're still pretty "young." Perhaps all they need are an interior update.

The oldest 733 is from 11 December 1986. Airfleets.net is showing that approximately 1/3 of the 733 fleet was also delivered after 1990. Either way, the 733 fleet isn't that old either. Perhaps all they need are an interior update.

Bottom line, the 737 fleet only looks old. The oldest 737 is 22 years old, and the youngest is 16 years old, which is not bad when compared with other airlines... look at NW. Just re-freshing the seat covers on the 737 fleet to the new blue and silver patterns (that are found on the Airbii fleet) would help wonders.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
IMHO, the management....

Totally agree.
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:25 pm

If DL, NW and US all came out of Ch 11 recently as UA did and all three have managed to buy aircrafts, then why UA cannot? DL and NW even ordered aircrafts during Ch 11, IIRC.

I think before any aircraft is replace, the management should be the one to go. Unfortinately they have too much vested interested in the company through equity and stock options as part of Ch 11 reorganization. The management wants to cash them out asap and the quickest way is through change of control of the company..... which can be accomplished either through a merger or sale the company....
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swaluvfa
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:27 am

Our recent company news brief called "Eye on UA" addressed the fleet replacement issue. It sounds like there will not be a new order any time soon. Here is the news brief from Tilton and some of our other execs.

Quoted from our news letter:

EYE-ON-UA
July 7, 2007 -- Planning the Fleet

Hi, it's Glenn, and it's Thursday, the 5th of July.United and a number of carriers updated their financial guidance to Wall Street in the last several weeks, and capacity is an important part of that discussion across the industry. Network and low-cost carriers are taking a very hard look at capacity and fleet plans... and there has been news in terms of both additions and subtractions, as airlines respond to the market demand and to their particular circumstances.

I have asked our Senior Vice President of Planning Kevin Knight and our Vice President of Financial Planning and Analysis Kathy Mikells to join us on today's call to put United's strategic fleet decisions into the context of recent industry developments. I'll now turn the call over to Kevin to begin the conversation. So, Kevin, over to you.

Kevin:

Thanks, Glenn. United's focus over the past several years has been to make very disciplined decisions about capacity.

We have been eliminating underperforming routes, adding new international destinations from points of strength within the U.S. We are using our existing fleet very strategically to expand and improve the scope and the economics of the entire network.

Our existing fleet, with 460 aircraft, is one of the largest in the global industry, and one of the youngest, with an average age of just 12 years. We are currently in a good position, with the right number of aircraft to meet our needs.

Some of our competitors find themselves in a different situation and having to make immediate decisions around their fleets. As a result, they are placing orders primarily to replace aging airplanes. For example, Northwest needs to replace their fleet of 115 DC-9s, which today are more than 34 years old. American will also have more than 100 MD-80s that will reach 25 years of age by the year 2012.

At United, it will be 2016 before we have 100 aircraft 25 years or older, so we have more time before we need to make a purchase decision.

In the near term, for both narrow- and widebodies, we'll continue to optimize our network, ensuring that every aircraft is matched to the best city possible and reallocating the fleet as necessary.

We do this by eliminating routes that lose money and redeploying aircraft to new profitable routes, as we did with JFK-Narita to Washington-Narita, or, within the U.S. domestic market, by making adjustments to and from mainline and United Express. Internationally, we will also continue to grow by improving the utilization of our international aircraft.

The common denominators are market demand and profitability. Right aircraft, right place, right time.

We will continue to make financially sound decisions that work for our customers, network and fleet. We are also deploying our resources in smart, strategic ways to improve the customer experience.

We are investing in significant upgrades to the interiors of our existing fleet. Our international premium product, IPP, will debut later this year in United First and Business, to ensure we meet our customers' expectations in a very competitive market.

Through IPP, we will deliver an innovative, personalized experience to our customers with new seats, onboard entertainment systems, interiors and other elements of the product.

For more on the economics associated with decisions around aircraft purchases, I'll turn the call over to Kathy Mikells. Kathy?

Kathy:

Thanks, Kevin. You mentioned the 25-year mark as a critical decision point for fleet purchases. There's an important economic reason for that. At 25 years old, an aircraft becomes more expensive to maintain. As a result, the cost of replacing it - factoring in the capital expense and the better operating economics - starts to make sense.

For United, with about nine years to go before we have a significant number of aircraft at that age, we have the advantage of time to plan any fleet acquisition.

It's important to remember that the current narrowbody aircraft are built on technology from the 1970s and 80s. We expect the next generation of aircraft will dramatically improve the technology from where we are today.

That new technology may be available by the middle of the next decade, and that timing fits very well with United's future need for replacement aircraft - enabling us to build an industry-leading fleet of narrowbody aircraft.

We believe it's a significant competitive advantage for us that we are able to wait for that next generation of narrowbodies to arrive.

Although not an immediate need, we also believe that there will be opportunities for new international widebody aircraft, and that's something we will be taking into consideration over the next few years.

For now, we are in close contact with the aircraft manufacturers and we will continue to discuss with them our needs and their ability to deliver on them -- when we decide that an aircraft order is the right decision for our business, our fleet and our customers.

To the point about improving our existing fleet, over the next several years, we have allocated significant capital - over 300 million dollars in the next few years -- for the overall improvement of our business- and our first-class cabins.

Glenn, I'll turn it back to you.

Glenn:

Thanks, Kathy, and thanks, also, to Kevin. You have summed up the critical point: we are focused on making the right decisions for United Airlines.

We are going to continue to build a stronger company with the right network, fleet and products ...supported by sound and disciplined financial decisions.

As we improve our focus on our customers and creating a more sustainable company, we have the opportunity to invest in workplace improvements for our people and getting to the front line that which is needed to deliver the best possible service to our customers.

Finally today, I want to wrap up by thanking everyone who worked yesterday on the U.S. Fourth of July holiday. While we had good weather and lower load factors, we also had great performance with on-time arrivals at more than 86 percent. Just like last weekend, this coming weekend is going to bring a very busy couple of days for us, with our customers returning home from vacations.

This will present an opportunity for us to demonstrate to our customers - even on busy, crowded days such as holidays - that we get the basics right and that we add a dimension of personal service that our competitors cannot match.

That's all for now. I'll be talking to you again soon. Until then, stay focused on our customers, and on one another... and stay united.
 
roseflyer
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 6):
I havent seen any of the domestic 763, 737, 319, 320, or 757 upgraded with anything I keep seeing the same old gray United Airlines seats. Each time more holes, and more dirty cabins. The carpets need to be replaced badly..

You might have not seen it, but there the old seats are completely gone except the 737s and the new seat coveres are on the majority of the aircraft (based on experience, not actual numbers). First class hasn't changed, but economy on the A319s, A320s, 757s and 767s are all getting new seat covers on the seats that were newly replaced about 8 years ago. You can identify the new seat covers because they are solid blue and green instead of the gray with the pattern. I don't know how much of the fleet has changed, but its a slow progression. The interiors of the planes aren't that bad actually when they are properly cleaned in the morning. They get disgusting when the cleaners rush through the plane and do a bad job, but UA has improved the interiors.

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ANCFlyer
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
What Will UA Need To Replace First?

The Call Center in India would be a good start.
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Mike89406
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 2):
BUT the 737's are awful inside and certainly need replaced.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
Domestic:

Boeing 737-300



Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 4):
All they need is to expedite the painting and upgrade the econ seat covers to the navy blue ones, as opposed to the 80s/90s colored ones.

You mean from this
Big version: Width: 512 Height: 384 File size: 42kb
and this
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To These?
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Big version: Width: 450 Height: 338 File size: 36kb
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
You might have not seen it, but there the old seats are completely gone except the 737s and the new seat coveres are on the majority of the aircraft (based on experience, not actual numbers).

Has this all happened within the past few months? If so I would be surprised!

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
First class hasn't changed, but economy on the A319s, A320s, 757s and 767s are all getting new seat covers on the seats that were newly replaced about 8 years ago.

By what decade?

By all means, the 777 and 744 that are plying the international routes should have gotten these new seat covers first.

There was an interim Seat Cover that was tried on a few 777-200 back in either the late 1990's, or right around 2000. I remember them being a solid blue color with what I believe was a small United Airlines logo on them. Can anyone give any more in-sight into what happened with those seat covers?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
You can identify the new seat covers because they are solid blue and green instead of the gray with the pattern

I know there is the new seat covers, however they are hit and miss on the United Airlines fleet. In the past 6 months I have flown on 4 UA 777-200, 6 757-200, 4 757-200PS, 5 A320TED, 3 A319, 3 767-300. The only new seat covers that I have seen on United Airlines were the Ted product and Premium Service. If they are replacing the seat covers it has to be one of the slowest processes in history. It is not that hard to do. Order the new seat covers, and replacing them when the aircraft are on RON, or extended ground times at the hub stations. I think there is a lot less of the new United Seat Covers than is being led on to.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
The Call Center in India would be a good start.

 checkmark 

Amen to that.. Bring the Customer Service back on shore, fire the bad apples, and invest money in quality and educated employees.


Mike89406,

The pictures that you posted were of the 737-300, and then the TED A320.. Notable from the oval shape of the window casing on the latter two, and the overhead PSU units. They are not the same equipment..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
OGGFBORefueler
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:13 am

They need to replace their WHOLE FLEET!!!!...nah jus kiddin'

Actually if I may add my  twocents  what they should do is give their planes a new coat of paint and maybe even re-work the interior, especially the seats.

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GoBlue
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:23 am

Are UA happy with the A320 series of Aircraft? I would assume they would order some new ones to replace some of the 737's, but then again that Embraer is proving quite popular for many airlines would are reducting the ASM on many routes in favour of smaller planes with better load factors.

Where do the 737's primarily fly or are they all over the map?

I could see airbus doing a good deal for some WB if UA comes to them for more 320's to replace the 737's. It all comes down to price and economics and the availability of aircraft. With the new 767 retrofits they would be fine in service until the A350 comes to fruitition and into service. So i am not sure the 787 is a slam dunk!

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Mike89406
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 26):
and then the TED A320.. Notable from the oval shape of the window casing on the latter two, and the overhead PSU units. They are not the same equipment..

No the second one was a UA A319 that I traveled on not TED

And my point was simply was the material in the first two pics the older colored fabric that people were talking about?

"All they need is to expedite the painting and upgrade the econ seat covers to the navy blue ones, as opposed to the 80s/90s colored ones."

Secondly is the seats in the A 319 the shade of Navy blue mentioned above? It has nothing to do with the Equip mentioned.

[Edited 2007-07-08 20:37:07]
 
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LAXintl
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:38 am

You can check out this United investor presentation.

http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...obal_Transportation_Conference.pdf

Pages 17-18 show breakdown on the age of UA's fleet. The company is in no-rush to replace the current somewhat youngish (average 12 years) fleet.
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FLYGUY767
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 29):
And my point was simply was the material in ther first two pics the older colored fabric that people were talking about?

Secondly is the seats in the A 319 the shade of Navy blue mentioned?

Thanks for the clarity. What you stated is correct the new colours for the seat covers are the darker, which are your latter two photos. I do still refute the fact that so many planes have new seat covers as posted by Rose Flyer.. I also found it amusing that the photo that Rose Flyer posted of the new UAL seat covers was taken 3 years ago!

-JD
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UAL777UK
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 26):
I know there is the new seat covers, however they are hit and miss on the United Airlines fleet. In the past 6 months I have flown on 4 UA 777-200, 6 757-200, 4 757-200PS, 5 A320TED, 3 A319, 3 767-300. The only new seat covers that I have seen on United Airlines were the Ted product and Premium Service. If they are replacing the seat covers it has to be one of the slowest processes in history. It is not that hard to do. Order the new seat covers, and replacing them when the aircraft are on RON, or extended ground times at the hub stations. I think there is a lot less of the new United Seat Covers than is being led on to.

For someone who pretty much slates UA 24/7 you sure as hell fly a lot on them!
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Pellegrine
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:29 am

They should focus on their international fleet since that's where the money is...

787s to replace International 763s would be nice, but obviously there's a lack of near-term 787 slots and I get the feeling UA won't be ordering planes for a while. If (when) they decide to retrofit cabins, the 747-400s can be kept a while longer. They need to order mid-size NG aircraft before their competitors have a competitive advantage.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 32):
For someone who pretty much slates UA 24/7 you sure as hell fly a lot on them!

Duty Calls!

Lol.. Seriously, I would like to see UAL invest some money into their cabins, a lot of them are starting to look as derelict as TWA cabins in the late 1990's..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
apodino
Posts: 3651
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:34 am

What does UA need to replace?


How about some of their express carriers, namely Mesa, Trans States, and GoJet.

And how about management while we are at it. Last time I checked, they had something in the ball park of 20-30 VP's. I can't believe this is cost efficient for them.
 
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flylku
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm

RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 9):
i think the 747s will be replaced with the 748

Interesting. I would like to see it but I think the largest aircraft any U.S. carrier will ever buy in the future MIGHT be the 777-300.

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 13):
I think the market calls for smaller aircraft with an increase in frequency, in which case the 748i wouldn't fit.

Agreed.

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 21):
If DL, NW and US all came out of Ch 11 recently as UA did and all three have managed to buy aircrafts, then why UA cannot? DL and NW even ordered aircrafts during Ch 11, IIRC.

Hard to believe but UA's fleet is relatively young. Remember, they took the first 777s starting in 1995 and I think have around 50 of them. The oldest is 12 years - middle aged by aircraft standards. The narrow body fleet is older but younger than come competitors.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 20):
For United, with about nine years to go before we have a significant number of aircraft at that age, we have the advantage of time to plan any fleet acquisition.

The quote is from an UA exec. I wonder if they will wait so long to order that they will be forced into the A350 because they cannot get the slots they need for the 787?

They're long haul needs are 747 / 767 first. For the 747 I see 777-300ERs. But if they cannot get timely 787 slots will there even be an A350 as a suitable replacement 767-300?
...are we there yet?
 
ual777
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 8):
There was a big rumor that UA wanted to get out of the short haul 100 seat class and lets express fly 100 seat aircraft. Im not sure how real that was but my brother whos e-170 f/o said that republic does have e-190 pay scale. So who knows. but i think it would benefit UA cost wise to maybe do this.

Wont happen. They are prevented by scope.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 12):
It does indeed seem to be going that way.

Its not for a merger at all. Its because it doesn't make financial sense to order more A320s/ 737NGs when a much better a/c is just around the corner.

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 17):
UAL has simply not the funds to purchase new planes. They will upgrade the existing fleet and fly for the next 5-10 years pretty much unchanged. I also think that UAL is not going to lease any planes soon. They have learned that planes on their own balance-sheet (like NW) is still the most efficient way of doing business.

WRONG. They have 4 BILLION in the bank. See above. Also about half of their fleet is leased.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
We all know that UA's birds are in need of replacing...

I don't agree. As some have already said, UA's fleet is on average younger than most legacies.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I think it IS time that UA orders some new planes whether you all like it or not...they need new ones

No, they need refurbishment....and the first and business class starts this year.....but not replacement

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 21):
If DL, NW and US all came out of Ch 11 recently as UA did and all three have managed to buy aircrafts, then why UA cannot? DL and NW even ordered aircrafts during Ch 11, IIRC.

We'll see what happens during the next major economic downturn. Those airlines will have tons of debt and UA will be sitting pretty. Being prudent is a virtue....and this UA management team seems committed to financial sanity.

If any A.netters take the time to read (yes, I know, A.netters don't want to be confused with facts) the earlier post from SWALUVFA, which has straight from the horses's mouth information about UA's flleet, they would know that UA is going to wait to see the next generation of narrow bodies before making a commitment on that fleet type.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
swiftski
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I think it IS time that UA orders some new planes whether you all like it or not...they need new ones.

If it's "whether we all like it or not" then no point discussing it. You have your "answer" so no need to hear anyone elses opinion...
 
Boston92
Topic Author
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 38):
No, they need refurbishment....and the first and business class starts this year.....but not replacement

I have already stated that the intl product right now is in no need of replacement, and those are the ones getting the update. It is the domestic 733's that do need replacing. Please note the thread title is not "UA needs To Replace A/C", it is "What they need to replace first" whether that be next year or in 20 years.

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 39):
If it's "whether we all like it or not" then no point discussing it. You have your "answer" so no need to hear anyone elses opinion...

Okay, I apologize for that comment...
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
And how about management while we are at it. Last time I checked, they had something in the ball park of 20-30 VP's. I can't believe this is cost efficient for them.

Obviously you don't work in the banking industry...  Smile ...everyone's a VP!

UA's fleet age and planning has been discussed at length in many threads on a.net (at least a few times in the last 30 days). However, the best real information, is from the investors day report issued back in December. Someone mentioned it above. UA is really in a favorable position compared to its peers.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
warreng24
Posts: 574
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 36):
Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 20):
For United, with about nine years to go before we have a significant number of aircraft at that age, we have the advantage of time to plan any fleet acquisition.

I was misquoted, never posted that!
 
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RayChuang
Posts: 8138
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:50 am

I do think that United Airlines will be looking at a 787-8/787-9 order probably 2-3 years down the road. These will eventually replace the 767 on a slow basis.
 
ilikeflight
Posts: 359
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:42 am

I think they need to replace their 737's with 739's and the older 767's with 783's 772's with either 772ER's or LR's then they can replace the 744's with 748i's or 77W's and then maybe add some 788's or 789's for the intl routes as well
Think Different
 
mnik101
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 3:43 pm

RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 2):
Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
What exactly is wrong with the current fleet? In my experience, the cabins are as good as any other US major, or better (at least in economy).

Full Disclosure: UA is my favorite airline . . .

BUT the 737's are awful inside and certainly need replaced.

Its not just a matter of condition of the aircraft, although it is a very important part, but rather operating efficiency. UA needs to be able to compete in this era of low cost carriers and increased international competition and turn a profit. Long story short. Simplify and modernize the fleet. 787s to replace the 767s, 757s, early 777, 773 for the 744 or 748 (one or the other not both). And replace the remaining 737s with A320s
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:25 am

RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:58 am

Just a point of clarification, UA's domestic 767's are considerably younger than the international 767's, by some 10 years+.

I think in the short term you will see an incremental increase in the A319/320 fleet, nothing big but yes, United is happy with the aircraft on balance.

The 787 in all its variants will probaly be a player longer term, as will the new generation narrow bodies. The 748's ???
Hard to say, there are still a few markets that need the cargo lift.

United doesn't have any problem with financing. Those of you who seem to think you know all aren't paying much attention to the financial experts. $5+ billion in cash will get you access to most any financial market.
 
777fan
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting GoBlue (Reply 28):
Where do the 737's primarily fly or are they all over the map?

They're here at BWI and DCA several times a day (to/from ORD).

From the excerpt above, it sounds like they're going to wait out the rush on 787s until streamlined production (and possibly competition from the A35X) drive prices down to the point where it makes sense. Until then, it looks like we're all stuck with the aging (but graceful) 757s, and "shortbus" 737s. I, for one, would like to see UA pick up the A319/320 options to replace the 733 and 735 fleet.


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
Mir
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RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 40):
Please note the thread title is not "UA needs To Replace A/C", it is "What they need to replace first" whether that be next year or in 20 years.

But yet you say:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
We all know that UA's birds are in need of replacing...not just updates, but actual replacement.

Many on here (myself included) don't believe that to be the case, so don't blame us for saying so in response to such a comment. If you're really asking what will be replaced first (as in out of the fleet), I would guess the 737s. But I don't see that happening for a while.

Quoting Mnik101 (Reply 45):
Its not just a matter of condition of the aircraft, although it is a very important part, but rather operating efficiency. UA needs to be able to compete in this era of low cost carriers and increased international competition and turn a profit. Long story short. Simplify and modernize the fleet.

It costs a lot of money to buy new aircraft. UA is better off using the domestic fleet that they have now, and that they have paid off a large portion of (or all of) until the new narrowbodies come in. As UAL777 said:

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 37):
it doesn't make financial sense to order more A320s/ 737NGs when a much better a/c is just around the corner.

As far as the 767s go, AA and DL will both be running a large fleet of 767s for some time, so UA isn't the only airline hanging onto that sort of older equipment. I get the sense that UA feels that the 767s can last until either the 350 or 787 come along, and that they can afford to wait and see which one of those is the better aircraft for them.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: What Will UA Need To Replace First?

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Simple answer, its management. Unless and until the current management of UA make a commitment to actually run the airline and invest in its future, instead of looking to sell off or merge UA with another carrier, its unlikely that we will see UA order any new airplanes.

UA's entire business is built around merging. I bet that management has some kind of golden parachute, and this is probably why they are adding executives (from what I can tell) at a high pace.

Quoting SWALUVFA (Reply 22):
Our recent company news brief called "Eye on UA" addressed the fleet replacement issue. It sounds like there will not be a new order any time soon. Here is the news brief from Tilton and some of our other execs.

Thanks for posting, it was very interesting. I'm surprised that they talk about year 25 for maintenance, as if the cost exponentially grows at that point. It's more of a question of current operational efficiencies and maintenance checks, not some kind of magical age.
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