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787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:27 pm

Several threads are looking at aspects of the 787 order backlog but each seems to be getting sidetracked.

See for example:
787 Orders Count Discrepancies (by Kaitak744 Jul 8 2007 in Civil Aviation)

What say we start a plain and simple record of who has ordered what? No opinions, please, about ulterior motives for ordering this or that and please no indignant huffing and puffing about the A350 (either for or against) since that belongs elsewhere.

So, we start with Boeing's own ORDERS spreadsheet correct to the end of June.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...ageid=m25062&RequestTimeout=100000

That shows 637 orders as follows:

Aeromexico 787-8 x 2 GE
Air Canada 787-8 x 37 GE
Air China 787-8 15 x RR
Air India 787-8 x 27 GE
Air New Zealand 787-9 x 8 RR
Air Pacific 787-9 x 5 GE
ALAFCO 787-8 x 12 GE
All Nippon Airways 787-3 x 30 RR
All Nippon Airways 787-8 x 20 RR
Arik Air 787-9 x 3 ??
Avianca 787-8 x 10 RR
Aviation Capital Group 787-8 x 5 ??
Azerbaijan Airlines 787-8 x 5 GE
Boeing Business Jet 787-8 x 4 ??
Boeing Business Jet 787-9 x 3 ??
Boeing Business Jet 787-9 x 1 GE
C.I.T. Leasing Corporation 787-8 x 3 GE
C.I.T. Leasing Corporation 787-8 x 2 RR
China Eastern Airlines 787-8 x 15 GE
China Southern Airlines 787-8 x 10 GE
Continental Airlines 787-8 x 8 GE
Continental Airlines 787-9 x 17 GE
Ethiopian Airlines 787-8 x 8 GE
Ethiopian Airlines 787-9 x 2 GE
First Choice Airways 787-8 x 12 GE
Hainan Airlines 787-8 x 8 GE
Icelandair 787-8 x 4 RR
ILFC U.S.A. 787-8 x 73 ??
ILFC U.S.A. 787-9 x 1 ??
JAL International 787-3 x 13 GE
JAL International 787-8 x 22 GE
Jet Airways 787-8 x 10 ??
Kenya Airways 787-8 x 9 ??
Korean Air 787-8 x 10 GE
LCAL 787-8 x 6 RR
LCAL 787-9 x 9 ??
LOT Polish Airlines 787-8 x 8 RR
Monarch Airlines 787-8 x 6 RR
Nakash 787-9 x 2 ??
Northwest Airlines 787-8 x 18 RR
Pegasus Aviation Finance 787-8 x 6 RR
Qantas Australia 787-8 x 15 GE
Qantas Australia 787-9 x 30 GE
Royal Air Maroc 787-8 x 4 GE
Royal Jordanian 787-8 x 2 ??
S7 Group 787-8 x 15 ??
Shanghai Airlines 787-8 x 9 GE
Singapore Airlines 787-9 x 20 ??
Travel Service 787-8 x 1 ??
TUI 787-8 x 11 ??
Unidentified Customers 787-8 x 40 ??
Unidentified Customer 787-8 x 2 GE
Uzbekistan Airways 787-8 x 2 ??
Vietnam Airlines 787-8 x 4 ??
Virgin Atlantic Airways 787-9 x 15 ??

But we can place some of the leasing company planes:

Aeromexico take 3 with GE from ILFC
Air Seychelles take 2 with GE from ILFC
Blue Panorama take 4 with RR from Pegasus
Flyglobespan take 2 with RR from ILFC
Royal Jordanian take 2 with ?? from ILFC

These, of course, don't add to the 637 above.

RR claim 2 BBJs but these aren't yet on the Boeing website. (I assume they are 2 of the 7 without an announced engine.)

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer...ucts/airlines/trent1000/market.jsp

It has been announced that 40 of the 74 ILFC planes will have RR. ILFC have announced that "up to 24" will have GE. That leaves at least 10 up for grabs.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0-ilfc-boeing-787-dreamliners.html

And then we come to this week.

Add 5 for CIT (no model, no engine)
Add 20 -9s for QANTAS with GE
Add 10 -8s for Alfaco (no engine)
Add 25 -8s for Air Berlin (no engine)
Add (rumoured) 8 more for Virgin Atlantic (no model, no engine)

If they are firmed up that takes the total from 637 to 705 but all of these must be considered "pending" until Boeing update their spreadsheet next week.

There will most likely be further announcements over the next 48 hours.

We might expect a few more orders.
We might well see some engine choices being announced.
We might well see some "unannounced" orders being identified.

This is the thread in which to track these developments.

Let's enjoy this once in a decade moment!
 
fun2fly
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:37 pm

These are some pretty big orders and announcements. Just this week, it's nearly one year's production. The big US carriers (DL, UA, AA) better get in or they will be out until 2015. Will any announce today? Seems highly probable that someone should or maybe reveal themselves as the 30 787 order from earlier this year.

Separately, the leasing companies will be able to get top $ for the early delivery slots they have. Will they sell them outright to anyone?
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 1):
someone should or maybe reveal themselves as the 30 787 order from earlier this year.

It seems widely accepted that these 30 are for QR and will be announced on Sunday.

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 1):
Separately, the leasing companies will be able to get top $ for the early delivery slots they have.

Strange that GECAS haven't yet ordered a single one.
 
brendows
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
But we can place some of the leasing company planes:



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
ALAFCO 787-8 x 12 GE

All 12 to KU.
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 3):
All 12 to KU.

Rumoured but not yet confirmed.
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:46 pm

Thank you for such a detailed thread PM some other links of note worth adding;

Air Berlin Orders 25 Boeing 787-8

Alafco Orders 10 More Boeing 787s

Qantas Increases Order For 787

I L F C Orders Trent 1000s For 40 787s

Any further order announcements should be added here and as you can see some definately warrant their own threads with QF Group soon to have the largest single firm order (65) for a carrier. Air Berlin potentially being the largest European operator in terms of a single order, to date and I.L.F.C. with the largest firm order to date (74) ordering RR for 40 frames.



Quoting PM (Thread starter):
Let's enjoy this once in a decade moment!

I agree, let's enjoy what is another good week for aviation, enthusiasts and the Forum alike.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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brendows
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
Rumoured but not yet confirmed.

Is it?

Quote:
The Sharia-based leasing and finance company was the first Middle East customer to finalize its order for the highly sought-after Dreamliner, and ALAFCO has successfully placed its first 12 787s with Kuwait Airways.

Source:
boeing.com
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 6):
Is it?

Wow! I stand corrected.

The first update for this thread! Thanks.

Add 12 x -8 (?) with GE for Kuwait Airways (leased from Alfaco).
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:02 pm

I would find it funny if boeing gets the firm orders to 787 tonight.
 
brendows
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
Add 12 x -8 (?) with GE

That is correct  Smile Thanks for starting this thread PM  bouncy 
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:14 pm

Playing a bit more with the numbers confirmed by Boeing as of the end of June, we have:

43 x 787-3 (= 7% of total orders)
478 x 787-8 (75%)
116 x 787-9 (18%)

272 with GE (43%)
121 with RR (19%)
244 with ?? (38%)
 
osiris30
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:06 am

Didn't see this yet:

Quote:

Orders keep on coming: Virgin Atlantic orders 8 more 787

Virgin Atlantic is set to announce an order for a further eight Boeing 787 Dreamliners, boosting demand for the Chicago-based company's long-range, fuel-efficient jet.

Richard Branson's carrier is to add to the 15 787s it has already bought, taking its total to 23 planes.

http://letsfindaflight.com/page_1181845192626.html
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:10 am

Intheresting fact on the success of the 787. There are now more orders for the 787 than there are deliveries for the 777 & A330. I know it isn't comparing apples to apples, but it puts it in perspective!

787 - 677 Ordered to date
777 - 642 Delivered to date
A330 - 380 Delivered to date

[Edited 2007-07-08 17:10:50]
 
aminobwana
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting PM (Thread starter):
This is the thread in which to track these developments

For reasons unknown, the Aeroflot order for 22 B787 is still not on the Boeing Order and Deliveries site, probably because they are more cautious then other in all what refers to this airline (this order was announced very publicly by all parties)

aminobwana
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
A330 - 380 Delivered to date

261 x A332 plus 214 x A333 = 475...

But can we keep this thread on the 787 please!
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 13):
For reasons unknown, the Aeroflot order for 22 B787 is still not on the Boeing Order and Deliveries site, probably because they are more cautious then other in all what refers to this airline (this order was announced very publicly by all parties)

There's no "reasons unknown" about it... it's not there because they hadn't as of the last update signed the necessary paperwork, so said order does not exist at this point in time. Boeing does not have the liberty of picking and chosing what orders they post to their O&D pages. They have to post whatever has been ordered even if it's posted as a UFO.

Finally even if SU orders 787 (or with their 350 order), management of that airline is so complicated by governmental interference that it means little to nothing until the aircraft are delivered.
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aminobwana
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 15):
Finally even if SU orders 787 (or with their 350 order), management of that airline is so complicated by governmental interference that it means little to nothing until the aircraft are delivered.

My mention of "reasons unknown" was rhetoric

What you state is 100% correct, and should apply both to Boeing and Airbus !

aminobwana
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 16):

My mention of "reasons unknown" was rhetoric

Do you mean rhetorical? If you actually meant rhetoric could I ask that we put that on the shelf for today. We really don't need a bunch of rhetoric on a day like today.. just enjoy it.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 16):
What you state is 100% correct, and should apply both to Boeing and Airbus !

I believe I *did* apply it to both Boeing and Airbus.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
kaitak744
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 3):
Quoting PM (Thread starter):
ALAFCO 787-8 x 12 GE

All 12 to KU.

ALAFCO's first 12 787s are being leased out to KU, not sold to KU. ALAFCO is after all a leasing company.
 
azhobo
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:36 am

787 order goal by Monday.
- 642 firm
- 20 Qantas (not firm i believe)
- 10 ALAFCO
- 25 Air Berlin
- 8 Virgin
_______________

102 to 82 remaining!


HOBO
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 18):
ALAFCO's first 12 787s are being leased out to KU, not sold to KU. ALAFCO is after all a leasing company.

Yes, but we're keeping track of

(1) how many planes are ordered
and
(2) who is flying them.

These 12 don't change the order total but it's nice to know which livery they'll be sporting.
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:56 am

 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 21):
EL AL to order 2 787? Is this new or old?

If it happens, it'll certainly be new.
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:59 am

How many orders have Boeing saved for today?

Any expectations?
 
azhobo
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:05 am

Qatar mystery order for 30 787 announced today. Some think so...

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/index...airways-denies-787-order&Itemid=76

HOBO
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 24):
Qatar mystery order for 30 787 announced today. Some think so...

I'm afraid that link doesn't shed any light on the mystery 30. However, James Wallace said that he had "a source" that saw the QR logo on the 787 in the paint shop! We'll just have to wait . . . .
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 24):

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/index...id=76

Oh dear. We're back to the bizarre "minijumbo" appelation for the 777 and the technically correct but misleading claim that QR has an all-Airbus fleet. Not, I might suggest, the most authoritative of sources.

That said, of course it's QR!
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:11 am

I too have heard "from the grapevine" that QR has the 30 787s. Hopefully QR will have their logo on the side of LN1 when she is unveiled this afternoon.
 
NYC777
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:26 am

At the end of June they had 637 orders and since then they added these recent firm orders:

5 x 787 for CIT
10 x 787 for ALAFCO
25 x 787 for Air Berlin

That's 40 new orders which qhich brings their total to 677.

QANTAS' order for 20 is not a firm order yet thus Boeing is not counting it in their 677 count.

Anyone can confirm that QR is going to announce their order today as well as VS' exercising 8 options?
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WestWing
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 28):
VS' exercising 8 options?

For what it is worth, CNNMoney has a story that was filed today that says...

U.K.-based Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. plans to order another eight Boeing Co. (BA) 787 airplanes before the end of this year, Paul Charles, a spokesman for the long-haul carrier said Sunday.

Note the "before the end of the year".
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 8):
I would find it funny if boeing gets the firm orders to 787 tonight

Unless I missed it in the thread talk above, they did..... they added 35 more Saturday afternoon
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 21):
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...ocview.asp?did=1000229503&fid=1725

EL AL to order 2 787? Is this new or old?

HOBO

Its already been reported by PanAm_DC10
El Al Renews Talks For Boeing 787s (by PanAm_DC10 May 2 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Lets wait and see if LY logo is on the rollout a/c.

The Israeli press have been making up and reporting every rumor that has to do with this order for the past 3 years.
this is the first official report :

Boeing in talks with El Al on Dreamliner
The 7E7 Dreamliner will be able fly non-stop from Tel Aviv to Los Angeles.
David Hayoun 7 Jun 04 9:56 GLOBES


Since then LY ordered the A330 as ...
El Al to go the Airbus route for first time
Haaretz.com ^ | 04/17/06 | Zohar Blumenkrantz

El Al to go the Airbus route for first time By National air carrier El Al has decided for the first time to by Airbus airplanes instead of purchasing from Boeing. TheMarker has learned that a delegation of high level executives from the European consortium is about to sign a contract and financing arrangements with the heads of the Israeli airline. A series of meetings, held under a veil of secrecy, ended Tuesday night at the Ramat Hahayal offices of the Borovich Mozes Group. It was agreed that Airbus financial experts will come to Israel immediately after Passover to iron out financial details of the deal. Airbus has not succeeded in selling airplanes to El Al until now, with the national carrier always opting for U.S.-made Boeing aircraft. Advertisement According to the plan drafted last week in the secret meetings, El Al will buy eight A-330 Airbus aircraft, which will replace Boeing 767 passenger jets. The deal, including spare parts, is estimated at $500 million. Banks associated with the European Union will provide credit to finance the deal, in a similar fashion to the credit El Al has received in the past for deals with Boeing. The loans and credit will be repaid over a 14-year period. Airbus committed to a three-year delivery schedule from the date the deal is signed. The deal is subject to the approval of the El Al board of directors as well as the board of the Airbus consortiu


Then there were true reports that LY passed on their option to acquire 14 787 because they had financial problems.

Then we heard that LY is planning on leasing 7 - 8 planes and recieve them between 2011 - 2015.

and now this latest claim that they are planning to purchase TWO a/c. To tell you the truth I dont understand what they will do with only TWO a/c. Unless these will come before the ones they will lease from 2011.

With EL AL and the 787 I will only believe it when I see the first a/c painted at PAE.
Just one note - not sure how much i would believe an article that claims that Arkia is inaugurating 2 787 tomorrow that they ordered a few months ago ...
The decision comes just one day before Arkia Airlines Ltd. inaugurates two 787s ordered a few months ago.

LY Looking To Lease 787 (by Amirs Mar 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)
El Al Cancels 8 - 10 X 787 Options (by NYC777 Nov 13 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Why El Al Can't Order The 787s Already? (by EL-AL Jun 16 2006 in Civil Aviation)
EL AL Update: 787 And 350 (by Amirs May 12 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Its Almost Official - LY Getting Airbus 330's! (by Amirs Apr 16 2006 in Civil Aviation) sorry about that post  
Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY (by Amirs Mar 27 2006 in Civil Aviation)
787-3/8/958? El Al Interested In At Least 11 787s! (by El Al 001 Nov 26 2005 in Civil Aviation)
El Al One Step Closer To 787 Deal (by Amirs Nov 13 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Boeing: B787 Perfect For EL AL (by JetMaster Sep 30 2005 in Civil Aviation)

        

[Edited 2007-07-08 18:52:55]
 
flyabunch
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

Strange that GECAS haven't yet ordered a single one.

Could it be that GECAS is Boeing's ace in the hole? Wait till today 7/8/7 and order enough frames to get the total up to the magic number of 787?

Just a thought.....

Mike
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 32):
Could it be that GECAS is Boeing's ace in the hole? Wait till today 7/8/7 and order enough frames to get the total up to the magic number of 787?

I would like to see that happen.
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NYC777
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:01 am

Would GECAS order 110 787s? That's quite a gamble!
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olle
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:15 am

Wasn't there there conversations in early 2000 that too many purchases of leasing companies was of less quality then the companies buying the airplanes directly...

I might be wrong but I have a memory that it was pretty much discussed here. Is there any relevance in this, and if why was it considered this way?
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:48 am

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
osiris30
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Olle (Reply 35):
Wasn't there there conversations in early 2000 that too many purchases of leasing companies was of less quality then the companies buying the airplanes directly...

I think the discussion should be that massive single customer orders in general are less favorable than many smaller orders spread across a wide customer base. An order from GECAS for 110 aircraft would have horrible margins compared to 11 order for 10 frames each.

People often lose sight of the fact that for Boeing and Airbus, it's not about how many frames they sell, but how much MONEY they make.
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RIXrat
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:01 am

Could there be any significance of the planes lined up at BFI as to who will order the 787, or more of the type, in the near future. In my opinion: Omega-No. AirTran-No. FedEX-No. Alaska-No. RR-just for show. Continental-Maybe. Delta-Maybe. Air France-Maybe. This is pure speculation, but what do you think?
 
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
An order from GECAS for 110 aircraft would have horrible margins compared to 11 order for 10 frames each.

It all depends on the configurations. If someone (like FR) orders a couple hundred identical planes, then the paper work per aircraft is really reduced -- one copy covers them all. While only the variations from the 'standard' configuration needs to be documented, it still costs a lot of money to do it, so building a number of aircraft to the exact same configuration can be a real money saver.
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starrion
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:58 am

Given how many orders the 787 has even before the imminent rollout, how much chance does everyone think it has to hit 1000 orders before EIS?

Given that if all the orders placed so far are firmed and delivered it stands at just over 700.
Given that of the American majors only CO and NW have ordered it.
Given the enormous number of 767 and 757 frames in the US that will need to be replaced.

I think we could be looking at the first plane to reach that milestone before flying a revenue mile.
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Stitch
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:20 am

I am pretty sure QR's tail just showed up on the 787 Customer's Presentation...
 
egnr
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
I am pretty sure QR's tail just showed up on the 787 Customer's Presentation...

Yep, QR's tail was deffinitely shown.
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:33 am

no new orders announced at show.

those who said they wouldn't want any one airline to steal the spotlight were right. ANA's head man was allowed to speak as the launch customer.

they also said 677, but the math seems wrong, unless they didn't count the QF orders (maybe they aren't completely firm yet?).
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kalakaua
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting EGNR (Reply 42):

Yep, QR's tail was deffinitely shown.

It sure was!
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kaitak744
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:41 am

There were two tails I could not identify: A red tail with several wavy yellow lines, and a white tail with four blue arrows pointing at the center. Who were they???

and: QATAR HAS ORDERED 787s!
 
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N328KF
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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 45):
There were two tails I could not identify: A red tail with several wavy yellow lines, and a white tail with four blue arrows pointing at the center. Who were they???

The latter is RBS, an aircraft lessor. You won't actually see that tail on a real aircraft. If you are a Citizens or Charter One customer in the U.S., you use RBS.

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RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:41 am

I know this will not hold much weight. But i just got word that cal will be upping there order an additional 50 airplanes to 75. From what i am hearing we will get them all by the running by the end of 2012.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 47):
I know this will not hold much weight. But i just got word that cal will be upping there order an additional 50 airplanes to 75. From what i am hearing we will get them all by the running by the end of 2012.

Credible source? Would effectively knock out the competition guaranteed for 3-4 years.
 
iahflyer
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:34 pm

RE: 787 Orders Thread

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Nuggetsyl (Reply 47):
I know this will not hold much weight. But i just got word that cal will be upping there order an additional 50 airplanes to 75. From what i am hearing we will get them all by the running by the end of 2012.

Is this for CO? Also, What a completely fantastic aircraft!!!
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd

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