Maersk737
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:21 am

Now that we are talking about big windows, and the 787 do have big windows, does anyone know how big the windows on the Caravelle was/are? As far as I remember they were pretty big.

Cheers

Peter
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ikramerica
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
The technology is pretty "tried and true" by now, so I expect the MTBF is sufficiently low enough, even with the frame longevity of the 787.

it's been used in high end commercial construction for 20 years.

it's been used on the 744ER in the bathrooms for years.

individual lcds are very, very reliable. it's when you create a matrix that they aren't as reliable, but even then, most modern matrix lcd monitors, which are color and have on average 1280x1024x3= 4million pixels have on average 3-4 stuck sub pixels over time.

3-4 in 4 million, on a LOW COST consumer product, mass produced, made of an array, and constantly switching on an off.

How many HIGH COST single LCD boeing 787 windows will there be? A million? You'd expect a very low failure rate.

I've been on plenty of aircraft with stuck, cracked, broken solid window shades to know nothing is fool proof, but the reliability of the 787 window is likely to be higher than a mechanical shade...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
galapagapop
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:27 am

Is the material the windows are made of the kind that if, the switch was to break, it would go opaque, in that the current running through it makes it transparent. Such as that ever expensive self fogging glass?
 
drexotica
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 40):
Check out this BBC news clip about the 787. Pause it at 1:31. They do a pretty good size comparison with an A340 window that lets you see the difference. Notice they don't do a 777 or MD-11 comparison though!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...mp=wm

Scott0305 - this is the best and most dramatic treatment of the subject yet - many thanks for the useful link.

Question - is the depicted size of the A340 window correct?! It is unbelievably smaller than that of the 787.
N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
 
scott0305
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 53):
Scott0305 - this is the best and most dramatic treatment of the subject yet - many thanks for the useful link.

Question - is the depicted size of the A340 window correct?! It is unbelievably smaller than that of the 787.

I'm guessing it has to be correct but I see what you mean. It does look small.

Can't seem to edit my original post now but the BBC clip has been updated and the window comparison is now at the 58 second mark.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...id_6281300/6281332.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm
 
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keesje
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 54):
Can't seem to edit my original post now but the BBC clip has been updated and the window comparison is now at the 58 second mark.

Boeing 787 mock-up 2007
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v726/MidnightMike/Boeing%20787%20Mockup%20in%20Seattle/ff803796.jpg

Boeing 787 mock-up Farnbourough 2006
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Confuscius
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:04 am

Look at the DC-10/MD-11: an enormous field of view from the side but a much smaller view from the front.

The F-16 has an enormous all around field of view.

Ain't I a stinker?
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:04 am

i keep looking at this bird and i have to keep telling myself that the aircraft is far larger than it looks while standing alone. the size of the windows (cockpit or otherwise) are so large compared to "normal" aircraft that it gives the illusion that the plane is smaller than it is. but then you see the picture of it at the rollout with all the people around it and you see that it really is quite massive. When there is a size comparison it is easy to see the windows are larger.
Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
 
zoom530
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:11 am

How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?

And if the pin had windows, how large should the windows on the pin actually be?
 
scott0305
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 55):
Boeing 787 mock-up Farnbourough 2006

That picture is just pure fantasy.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 59):
That picture is just pure fantasy.

Please elaborate?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
scott0305
Posts: 192
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 60):
Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 59):
That picture is just pure fantasy.

Please elaborate?

The window size is massively exaggerated. I'm assuming the "people" inside are actually pictures (look at the windows on the far side of the fuselage - they don't line up). If this picture were accurate then the window starts just below the top of the armrest and extends up about 6" above head height (using the guy in the second window from the right who is in the window seat as a guide) This would make the window around around 3 feet tall.

Even looking at it in comparison to the photo diectly above you can see there is no way the windows extend down anywhere near as far as the armrests. 18" I can believe - but that picture is just taking it too far.
 
787engineer
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 61):
The window size is massively exaggerated. I'm assuming the "people" inside are actually pictures (look at the windows on the far side of the fuselage - they don't line up). If this picture were accurate then the window starts just below the top of the armrest and extends up about 6" above head height (using the guy in the second window from the right who is in the window seat as a guide) This would make the window around around 3 feet tall.

Even looking at it in comparison to the photo diectly above you can see there is no way the windows extend down anywhere near as far as the armrests. 18" I can believe - but that picture is just taking it too far.

All this is based on the assumption that the people seen in the picture are in the seats closest to the window. If the people are on the other side of the plane it makes a lot more sense. The windows on the opposite side are about the right size relative to the people inside as I would expect. The windows don't line up, but hey it's just a mock-up and the picture may have been taken at a bit of an angle.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 55):

Boeing 787 mock-up 2007

Wasn't that picture taken a long time ago? I seem to recall seeing that exact picture at least 1-2 years ago. . . I could be mistaken

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have the dimensions of the A380's windows? We have the dimensions of the 787's windows from the Seattle PI link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/787/787primer.asp). I'd like to see a comparison  Wink.
 
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Tugger
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:42 am

It will be interesting to see how the windows ultimately look from the inside and how much of the "hole in the plane" it actually ends up using. There are a lot of variables in how they frame it and how the interior molding is set and designed to make it look. Ultimately the "hole in the plane" is the real size but the perceived size can be equally important.

Tug
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PolymerPlane
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 61):
The window size is massively exaggerated. I'm assuming the "people" inside are actually pictures (look at the windows on the far side of the fuselage - they don't line up). If this picture were accurate then the window starts just below the top of the armrest and extends up about 6" above head height (using the guy in the second window from the right who is in the window seat as a guide) This would make the window around around 3 feet tall.

Even looking at it in comparison to the photo diectly above you can see there is no way the windows extend down anywhere near as far as the armrests. 18" I can believe - but that picture is just taking it too far.

All you said depends on the distance of the camera to the windows, and the windows to the objects. Have you ever seen the explanation of Loch Ness pictures/video? It's all about zoom, distance and angle.

To illustrate my point, from inside a plane you can see the whole control tower from the bottom to the top and then some. Does that mean the windows are bigger than control tower?

Just take a look at the F16 picture. Are you saying that the canopy is actually much larger than two F16s behind it?

If you focus on the dreamliner cheat-line, assuming the paintings are accurate, it looks very proportional to the actual 787 pictures. That to me suggests that the windows size is accurate, or close to accurate.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:39 am

Does anyone remember the huge windows on the Viscount? They were more oval as well.

I have been in the cockpits of the DC10, L1011 and the 747. The ones on the 747 were quite a bit more raked than those of the other two and therefore seemed much smaller. There were much less side window as well hehind the pilot. The view was excellent on both the DC10 and L1011. This is especially true for the window beside the two jump seats on the left of the plane. The Flight Engineer's equipement obscured the window on the right side. I was on a A330 cockpit and the view seemed good as well however not a big as the DC10 and L1011.

The Gulfstream has an amazing view from the passenger windows. The flattened oval shape really gives a big window. The main competition the Bombardier/Canadair suffers from windows that are small in comparison. And they are also placed too low on the plane. This was corrected for the 900 series of commercial planes and they were placed higher on the fuselage. I always get a neck cramp flying the RJ on longer flights from craning my neck.
 
bringiton
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:09 am

Another size picture from the flikr link -


 
Viscount724
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 65):
Does anyone remember the huge windows on the Viscount? They were more oval as well.

Right, nothing will ever match the Viscount's (and Vanguard's) huge windows. They were so big the emergency exits were just the window itself which was big enough to climb through. Fokker F-27 windows were similar, perhaps slightly smaller. Viscount windows stretched from your head almost to your waist. You can just see enough of the first window in this photo to get an idea how big they were.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ian Haskell



And another:


[Edited 2007-07-11 01:12:26]
 
MD-90
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RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67):
Right, nothing will ever match the Viscount's (and Vanguard's) huge windows. They were so big the emergency exits were just the window itself which was big enough to climb through.

Gulfstream's windows aren't quite that big, but they also just use the window itself as an emergency exit.
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 62):
We have the dimensions of the 787's windows from the Seattle PI link (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/787/787primer.asp)


Credit: Seattle Post Intelligencer

They show 777 windows being 15 x 10"... Flight International quoted them as 388mm (15.3in) tall and 273mm (10.75in) wide in this story. My estimate of ~5% more glass than the 777 is based on the FI figures and the known, wider frame spacing of the 787.
 
scott0305
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 11:02 pm

RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 62):
All this is based on the assumption that the people seen in the picture are in the seats closest to the window. If the people are on the other side of the plane it makes a lot more sense. The windows on the opposite side are about the right size relative to the people inside as I would expect. The windows don't line up, but hey it's just a mock-up and the picture may have been taken at a bit of an angle.



Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 64):
All you said depends on the distance of the camera to the windows, and the windows to the objects. Have you ever seen the explanation of Loch Ness pictures/video? It's all about zoom, distance and angle.

To illustrate my point, from inside a plane you can see the whole control tower from the bottom to the top and then some. Does that mean the windows are bigger than control tower?

Just take a look at the F16 picture. Are you saying that the canopy is actually much larger than two F16s behind it?

If you focus on the dreamliner cheat-line, assuming the paintings are accurate, it looks very proportional to the actual 787 pictures. That to me suggests that the windows size is accurate, or close to accurate.

I see your point as it looks like most of the people are on the other side of the plane - however - the guy in the window second from the right is clearly in the window seat at this side (so there are issues there in that he's the same size as the people who are supposedly a further 10 feet or so away) but also - the very fact that the window seats can be seen from below the top of the armrest to about 6-12 inches above the top of the seat indicates to me that the producers of this picture have been a little economical with the truth.

And in terms of the cheatline - I agree the windows are probably accurately sized - it is the picture of the inside that is fabricated in order to make them appear larger than they actually are.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Scott0305 (Reply 40):
Check out this BBC news clip about the 787. Pause it at 1:31. They do a pretty good size comparison with an A340 window that lets you see the difference.

I saw this newscast and it took me way back - note my handle. It has obviously taken others on the same journey:

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 65):
Does anyone remember the huge windows on the Viscount? They were more oval as well.



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67):
Right, nothing will ever match the Viscount's (and Vanguard's) huge windows.

Here are a couple of more images to remind us oldies of an aircraft with really great windows and me of my first commercial aircraft flight:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Daniel Alaerts - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fergal Goodman

 
EMB195
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:03 am

RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:26 pm

Should we expect aircraft manufacturers to go for even bigger windows with the generation of aircrafts after the 787 and A350?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14963
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: 787 Windows. Are They Any Different?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 72):
Should we expect aircraft manufacturers to go for even bigger windows with the generation of aircrafts after the 787 and A350?

I would guess that Y3, should it be built, will have even larger windows because the overall larger size of the structure would allow for such windows without compromising structural integrity. One thing to consider is the the taller they are in relation to the overall fuselage diameter, the more they have to be curved, which adds to weight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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