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SEPilot
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 46):
will it be more humid inside? have bigger windows? a moon roof? how about a sun roof? more wheels? what exactly will it have that will make it superior?

John Leahy saying it's better.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 50):

Customers of the initial A350 could not switch to the B787 without risking loss of their deposits.

I believe they can get their deposits back on the grounds that Airbus is not building the plane that they contracted for, nor delivering it when they agreed to.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 35):
Your profile says you are an engineer; I cannot believe that you really believe that. If you were designing a pressure vessel where weight was at a premium would you design one with continuous cylindrical components butted end to end or one out of panels requiring four lengthwise joints as well as circumferal joints? Fewer joints are ALWAYS preferrable unless you are designing for disassembly and portability, which isn't the case here. Furthermore, in a pressure vessel, circumferal joints are stressed less than lengthwise joints. Your argument is like saying cars with a discrete frame and a unitized body are just different design choices and there is no reason to select one over the other. The marketplace has decided otherwise.

Your profile says you're an engineer. I cannot believe that you believe that. If you were designing a pressure vessel where weight was at a premium a barrel would be better, the issue is, you're NOT designing a pressure vessel, you're designing an aircraft. A few extra bolts won't affect the aircraft's weight significantly. That weight will be offset by the more efficient method of panel manufacture versus barrels, in terms of optimized thicknesses.
The 787 is currently overweight, and the speculation is, it's because of the extra metallic mesh for lighting protection. At the moment the panels with lengthwise joints/aluminium frames combination, will actually save some weight.
Also, engineers design with cost in mind, and the current panel method fits the cost/production rate/performance targets perfectly. But I'm sure, as an engineer, you know that, right?
Oh, and about the marketplace having decided otherwise, 200 orders for the A350, 5 years before EIS suggest otherwise.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
More like the airlines, but they are also showing commitment to the panels approach, as well.

Airlines don't care about panels or barrels. If one aircraft is better than the other, that's what the airlines will buy, irregardless of the manufacturing method.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 46):
i still don't understand what technological advancements that will be made to allow the A350 to be so superior to the B787...what exactly will it have that will make it superior?

Size. The bigger the plane, the lower the CASM.

Quoting CruzinAltitude (Reply 49):
It is debatable that the Sonic Cruiser was a "smoke screen."



Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 50):
talktothehand Wrong - the Sonic Cruiser was a real program, not a smoke screen, and Boeing was not concealing their work on composite fuselages.

For what it is worth, when I joined BCA, it was on the Sonic Cruiser project. Alas, I was gone within a year (in the post-9/11 layoffs), but while I was there, I was working under the assumption we were serious about giving it a go.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 53):
Airlines don't care about panels or barrels. If one aircraft is better than the other, that's what the airlines will buy, irregardless of the manufacturing method.

True, but I am sure Boeing has been using the barrels as a reason why the 787 is at least better then the 767/A330/A340 and, so far, close to 50 airlines have been convinced.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 48):
flysherwood, you are a braver soul than i

I love how some people act like the A350 program is just getting off the ground. It has been going for almost 3 years now and they still DON'T have a frozen design?!?!?  banghead 

And yet, these same people insist that it is going to be superior? Why, because Mr. Leahy says so? Isn't this the same yahoo who only 3 years ago insisted that a "plastic" plane is not going to work? What a bunch of HORSE DUNG! There is no way that the A350 is going to be anymore than a very little bit more efficient, if at all, than the 787! 46 Airlines have staked their collective futures on that! And they know a hell of a lot more about aircraft than anyone here on A.net!  Yeah sure
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 52):
I believe they can get their deposits back on the grounds that Airbus is not building the plane that they contracted for, nor delivering it when they agreed to.

Sure; they can now, but rolling the clock back to when delivery of the original A350 first came into question they didn't have that option. The point was made to refute the idea that customers are eager to wait for the A350 rather than switch to the B787. Those original customers were happy with the A330 derivative and had no motive to switch to the B787 especially as the A350 offering improved while their contracted price remained fixed. By the time the XWB (and consequent delay) became official there was no longer an opportunity to switch to the B787 and meet the original delivery dates...those customers had to wait regardless - it wasn't by choice.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 54):
True, but I am sure Boeing has been using the barrels as a reason why the 787 is at least better then the 767/A330/A340 and, so far, close to 50 airlines have been convinced.

I couldn't agree more, but I'll ask you this question, do you think the 787 would be as successful if it had a pair of CF6s hanging, instead of GEnxs?
Also, do you think the 787 would be as successful if it didn't have a composite fuselage, but exactly the same performance characteristics as it's supposed to have now?

Even though I could be wrong, I don't think airlines have specialised composite engineers, so my guess is, it's the airline accountants that decide they want the 787, and they don't care how the airplane is made as long as it performs.

Anyhow, back to the topic, being 5 years late, Airbus HAS to make the A350 better than the 787, so until they're convinced they got it right, there's no reason to rush to the market.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 53):
If you were designing a pressure vessel where weight was at a premium a barrel would be better, the issue is, you're NOT designing a pressure vessel, you're designing an aircraft. A few extra bolts won't affect the aircraft's weight significantly. That weight will be offset by the more efficient method of panel manufacture versus barrels, in terms of optimized thicknesses.

First, an airliner IS a pressure vessel because it must be pressurized. Second, Boeing (or its subcontractors) has the ability to vary the thickness of the barrels just as well as with panels, so that advantage disappears. Third, the issue is not the weight of the bolts that is the issue so much as the weight of the flanges necessary to provide surface for the bolts. As to the weight issue, it is only the first six frames, and my understanding that they still meet the guarantees to the customers, just not the targets that Boeing had set. The lightning issue is bogus, as the lightning dissipation will not be helped by the aluminum frames; conduction is required on the skin, unless you'll accept blowing a hole in the fuselage. The panel approach will have exactly the same issue, and will probably be solved the same way.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 53):
Also, engineers design with cost in mind,

Quite true, but when your competitor is offering a superior product it behooves you to try and match, if not beat it.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 53):
Airlines don't care about panels or barrels. If one aircraft is better than the other, that's what the airlines will buy, irregardless of the manufacturing method.

I agree with this. The point is that the airlines also can appreciate the advantages of the barrel approach that promise to reduce maintenance requirements over the life of the aircraft over the panel approach. I have read credible reports that the Airbus engineers were unanimous in preferring barrels (as were the Boeing engineers when faced with the same decision) but were overruled by management because of the difficulty and cost of developing their own method without infringing on Boeing patents. It may not be true but it makes a lot of sense to me.
I will grant you that a panel CFRP plane beats an aluminum one hands down, and if nobody was building a barrel one I would be cheering it. But Boeing has proved it can be done, and Airbus is taking a lesser route. As to the sales, there are airlines that will buy Airbus if it is even close to competitive, just as there are airlines that will buy Boeing even if the competing Airbus is slightly better. There are also airlines that will snap up a bargain, and there is credible evidence that Airbus was selling the A350 at firesale prices. All this aside, I have no doubt that the A350 will be a more economical plane than anything else in the skies except the 787. But would it be even better if it had been made with barrels? Absolutely.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
wolbo
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:14 am

I don't believe the A350 will be moved significantly forward from 2013 but it wouldn't surprise me if the A358 and A351 will be delivered earlier than 2014 and 2015 respectively. Does it really take a whole additional year for each model to EIS after the A359? Given the threat of a possible Y3 or 787-10/11 it would be a smart move by Airbus to expedite this.
 
Joni
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 16):
787, nor the barrel composite structure, which provides for better structural integrity, lighter weight, and a more comfortable cabin, just to name a few

This isn't an undisputed fact, as Airbus has said the panels yield lower weight, since the thickness can be varied better according to need (upper & lower panels need to be thicker, the sidewalls can be thinner. Apparently the system Boeing's subcontractors use may also allow some kind of thickness variation, which may not be the same thing, however. ).

Also, the A380 has large composite pieces, so the idea that Airbus couldn't produce, or obtain, barrels is likely not the actual case.

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 16):
Does anyone honestly believe that EADS/Airbus will be able to outsource to the same extent that Boeing has done

Maximal outsourcing isn't a panacea, it also introduces risk and more difficult quality control requirements. Prudent outsourcing can be very useful, and I don't doubt that both Airbus and Boeing know these things and can outsource as much as they see fit.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Let's not forget that the smoke screen that was the 'Sonic Cruiser' hid a lot of composite research

I think Boeing was honestly trying to sell the Sonic Cruiser.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 34):
Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 15):
it is my opinion that eads is working very hard to deveop the technology to use barrels instead of panels.

Any reasoning behind these assumptions? Why would EADS work hard to develop the technology? What's stopping them from just contracting barrels out to Alenia for example?

This is my point as well. Airbus said they evaluated the barrels and wound up using the panels. The difference between them is probably minor, which can explain that the 2 companies wound up with different solutions.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:33 am

There are rumours that the long development time is due to the fact that engineering resources are also being used for the A320 successor which will see it's EIS in 2014-2015... Skilled engineers are somewhat scarce nowadays, so you need to make good use of them.

Cheers!  wave 
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TeamAmerica
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 57):
being 5 years late, Airbus HAS to make the A350 better than the 787, so until they're convinced they got it right, there's no reason to rush to the market.

The A350 only needs to be as good as the B787 in order to sell. The market for fuel-efficient mid-size airliners is huge, and Boeing cannot supply them all. At worst, if Airbus produces a comparable aircraft they will get orders based on availability - superiority is not required.

Quoting Joni (Reply 60):
This isn't an undisputed fact, as Airbus has said the panels yield lower weight, since the thickness can be varied better according to need (upper & lower panels need to be thicker, the sidewalls can be thinner. Apparently the system Boeing's subcontractors use may also allow some kind of thickness variation, which may not be the same thing, however. ).

This whole question is very much in dispute. Boeing does produce barrels with varying thickness, which calls into question the Airbus claim regarding the advantage of panels. Perhaps Airbus is saying that they need panels in order to achieve optimal thicknesses. More likely is that Airbus believes there will be an industrial advantage to producing and transporting panels rather than barrels, and that the claims regarding weight optimization and easy replacement of damaged panels are just rationalizations.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 58):
Second, Boeing (or its subcontractors) has the ability to vary the thickness of the barrels just as well as with panels, so that advantage disappears. Third, the issue is not the weight of the bolts that is the issue so much as the weight of the flanges necessary to provide surface for the bolts.

Unless you know something that I don't, you can't ramp up and down the inside skin surface when using it as a manufacturing datum. The only way to vary the skin thickness with the barrel method, is to vary the outer surface, but then you'll get a fuselage that looks like a ribbed condom. Maybe there are some ramps in the line of flight, but ramps required for barrel joints, door re-enforcings etc, that are across the line of flight, cannot be integrated during the barrel manufacture. if they did, then they wouldn't be able to slide the barrel out of the mandrel.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 58):
The lightning issue is bogus, as the lightning dissipation will not be helped by the aluminum frames; conduction is required on the skin, unless you'll accept blowing a hole in the fuselage.

The lightning issue is not bogus, Airbus has specifically designed the so called "aluminium cage" for that reason. Yes the panel will have some metallic mesh, but nothing like the 787. The charge will move through the frames and, surprise, surprise, the longitudinal joint straps.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
slider
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 61):
There are rumours that the long development time is due to the fact that engineering resources are also being used for the A320 successor which will see it's EIS in 2014-2015... Skilled engineers are somewhat scarce nowadays, so you need to make good use of them.

Not to be overly critical of Airbus in this regard, but this is exactly why Boeing took the tack it did with regard to the 787...they realize that the braintrust of building a great airplane is no longer the domain of ABC, Inc, but of numerous other companies.

If Airbus' engineering talent was/is pre-occupied, then that too is a strategic flaw for them.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 57):
I couldn't agree more, but I'll ask you this question, do you think the 787 would be as successful if it had a pair of CF6s hanging, instead of GEnxs?

Probably not.  Smile

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 57):
Also, do you think the 787 would be as successful if it didn't have a composite fuselage, but exactly the same performance characteristics as it's supposed to have now?

In general, yes, but as SEPilot noted, the maintenance and longevity benefits CFRP brings to the airlines is a more important factor then the sheer weight benefits CFRP offers.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 57):
Even though I could be wrong, I don't think airlines have specialised composite engineers, so my guess is, it's the airline accountants that decide they want the 787, and they don't care how the airplane is made as long as it performs.

I disagree, in that I believe the accountants are taking into account (forgive the pun) the total benefits CFRP brings to the table. If CFRP was just about weight, Airbus wouldn't have gone to it with the A350 because they (or, more precisely, their marketing department) swore Al-Li would be as light. But those accountants saw the savings in reduced heavy maintenance checks and less time in the hangar and more time in the air that CFRP brought and that helped drive their purchasing decisions.

Quoting Joni (Reply 60):
Also, the A380 has large composite pieces, so the idea that Airbus couldn't produce, or obtain, barrels is likely not the actual case.

Airbus' familiarity with large composite (GLARE, etc.) panels and structures as used on the A380 may be the reason why they want to use it on the A350. It's a technology they understand and are familiar with, so the risks are lower.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
One should remember that when the A350 enters it's design freeze in October 2008, that will give Boeing up to five years (assuming a Q4 2013 EIS) to both follow the A350 and incorporate "block improvements" into the 787 based on in-service data coming back from the airlines.

It would be a mistake to assume the 787 will remain a static, unchanging design for it's life that once Airbus benchmarks, can easily be exceeded.

There was a news item I saw where Boeing is working on reducing the design cycle time for new aircraft from 18 months to 6 months. If they do that, what does that say to the timeline for the A350? And more to the point the replacement for the B737 class of aircraft??

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Let's not forget that the smoke screen that was the 'Sonic Cruiser' hid a lot of composite research that meant that Boeing could truly catch Airbus off guard with the 7E7/787 and make it look like they had a short development time.

That's the most paranoind thing I've heard in years. To belive that, you'd have to believe that Airbus and everyone who worked there just fell off the turnip truck and were completely uninformed about developments in the industry vis a vis their competitors.

Look. The reason that Airbus was caught napping was not with some kind of Mohammed Ali rope a dope deal like you're suggesting here. It's a lot simpler.

The reason Airbus got caught napping is they were otherwise occupied designing Big Porky, a/k/a the A380, and they actually did not believe that Boeing could build an airliner using monolithic CFRP fuselage construction.
When the facts started to come out that it would actually happen, then we got the first version of the A350 with Ole Swampgas hisself saying that if it burned more fuel they'd just write the operators a check. Then we got the second version of the A350, which was rejected by the market. Now we have the third version, set to arrive in 2013 if Airbus stays on task, and it still isn't the technological equivalent of the B787 or anything near it. It's a lukewarm response to a red hot technological throwdown..

Secondly, maybe some people inside Airbus were smart enough to see it coming but the people who are running the show didn't believe it could happen or were otherwise occupied scraping the bottom of the barrel to get money for the A380 program.

When the history of Airbus in the last ten years is written, it will say that they squandered opportunity after opportunity to take the forefront in development of new construction technologies and they had a flawed understanding of the world air transport market, even while those technologies were taking shape right under their noses and that market was moving away from their model of how it ought to work..

It will say also that the causes were primarily, a lack of leadership at the top, a narrow minded view of what the world is about, a huge investment in a project that is the answer to a question nobody asked, and a certain continental disbelief that the competition was capable of anything more than making carbon copies of obsolete aircraft. When these things were indeed understood at Airbus, the history will say that five precious years had elapsed.

Quite simply, they took their eye off the ball, and they consistently discounted the competition's technological ability. Airbus is starting to sound a lot like the British motorcycle industry in the early seventies, for heaven's sake.

[Edited 2007-07-10 22:55:48]
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 63):
Unless you know something that I don't, you can't ramp up and down the inside skin surface when using it as a manufacturing datum. The only way to vary the skin thickness with the barrel method, is to vary the outer surface,

Kaneporta1, you can repeat your propaganda ad infinitum, you're wrong, and you know it. The 787 barrel *is* ramped on the inside, e.g. around the doors cut-outs. There are respective 'negative' ramps in the IML mandrel.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 62):
The A350 only needs to be as good as the B787 in order to sell.

Right, but 'as good as' what? 787 Release 2008 or 787 Block-xx Release 2013?
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Let's not forget that the smoke screen that was the 'Sonic Cruiser' hid a lot of composite research that meant that Boeing could truly catch Airbus off guard with the 7E7/787 and make it look like they had a short development time.



Quoting BigJKU (Reply 23):
Airbus was busy mucking around with the A380 which will be the last major mostly aluminum airliner built. In the process they learned how to make bigger parts and not much more.

Boeing mucked around with the Sonic Cruiser and sold none of them. But they started the process of learning how to build planes in a new revolutionary way.

This is the situation in a nutshell, Airbus will have its hand's full with a 2013 delivery date.

Some facts:

The Farnbourough introduction of the Al-Li A350XWB mark 1 was slated with a late 2012/early 2013 target date

Christian Streiff, the man they should have kept to run Airbus and who is the architect of the Power 8 program that will evenually be approved, said Airbus was 10 years behind Boeing, and he was in a position to know the whole picture

The conclusion of all of this is that Airbus has to go a long way production and engineering wise to meet a 2013 schedule that is already VERY aggressive. They are not just engineering a new product, they are engineering new management and production systems, which Boeing had been working on for years before the 787 with the Sonic Cruiser. they are 10 years behind Boeing like Christian Streiff said, which is why they can't build a barrel fuselage by 2013. Going for 2013 with a composite fuselage - something they steered away from until last November- they are adding a mere 6 months to their original XWB mark 1 schedule - plus trying to match Boeing in subsystems, is going to be a huge challenge.

Airbus has learned much from the A380, but they are significantly behind in several key areas, so 2013 with an almost there design is what they will be able to offer. Airbus needs to find a way to make hay with the A380, which is where so much of its strategic investment went. So Boeing will dominate the middle market and Airbus will dominate the passenger VLA. Airbus may still find a good way forward with the A380, and they need to.
 
olle
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:25 am

Sometimes organisations need shakeups. Success is the most nice and you get a false feeling of security.


The history might also tell that the crisis in Airbus gave it the opportunity to change management and address internal problems.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 67):
Kaneporta1, you can repeat your propaganda ad infinitum, you're wrong, and you know it. The 787 barrel *is* ramped on the inside, e.g. around the doors cut-outs. There are respective 'negative' ramps in the IML mandrel.

That's the first time I've heard the barrel is ramped. My question is then, how do the remove the barrel from the mould tool? I've never seen a mandrel, I always assumed they slide the section out. Since you seem to know more, please enlighten me.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
flysherwood
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 65):
It will say also that the causes were primarily, a lack of leadership at the top, a narrow minded view of what the world is about, a huge investment in a project that is the answer to a question nobody asked, and a certain continental disbelief that the competition was capable of anything more than making carbon copies of obsolete aircraft. When these things were indeed understood at Airbus, the history will say that five precious years had elapsed.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

And until they fix things, starting at the top, their development programs will be big fat question marks! It is important that people realize that in a ultra-competitive market, "you snooze, you DIE". And am I saying that Airbus is doomed, absolutely NOT. But if the much needed changes in management procedures are not implemented soon, they may face a future of being an "almost ran". The difference between Boeing and the troubles they experienced a few years back and the problems that Airbus faces now is simply the fact that Capital markets were not going to wait for Boeing to figure out what to do over 10 years. They had to fix things and fix them immediately or face a run on their stock. The question remains, what is Airbus going to do to save themselves?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 70):
The question remains, what is Airbus going to do to save themselves?


  • Sell and deliver A320s and A330s by the skip-load to generate revenue as fast as possible in as continual a stream as possible to fund operations and development.
  • Seek outside investors for the same purpose.
  • Ramp A388 production as quickly as possible to start paying off the program costs.
  • Examine A388 customer in-service data to improve the model and attract new customers for it.
  • Continue to refine and define the A350 to secure additional customers and orders.
  • Start removing ineffectual management layers.
  • Increase R&D spending on both new projects and new technologies to remain competitive.
  • Examine and begin to address production inefficiencies within their current structure ("Power 8").
  • Probably a lot more things I am not thinking of...
 
flysherwood
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 71):
Sell and deliver A320s and A330s by the skip-load to generate revenue as fast as possible in as continual a stream as possible to fund operations and development.

Seek outside investors for the same purpose.

Ramp A388 production as quickly as possible to start paying off the program costs.

Examine A388 customer in-service data to improve the model and attract new customers for it.

Continue to refine and define the A350 to secure additional customers and orders.

Start removing ineffectual management layers.

Increase R&D spending on both new projects and new technologies to remain competitive.

Examine and begin to address production inefficiencies within their current structure ("Power 8").

Probably a lot more things I am not thinking of...

For the aviation world in general, I really hope they succeed. Because having a big imbalance between the only two major players is not healthy for anyone but the shareholders of Boeing in the short term. In the long term, even they would suffer.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 59):
Apparently the system Boeing's subcontractors use may also allow some kind of thickness variation, which may not be the same thing, however. ).



Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):

Unless you know something that I don't, you can't ramp up and down the inside skin surface when using it as a manufacturing datum. The only way to vary the skin thickness with the barrel method, is to vary the outer surface, but then you'll get a fuselage that looks like a ribbed condom.

The mandrels are ramped to account for the changes in thickness, and they are not one piece; they are disassembled from inside the barrels after they are cured. Boeing is able to make any variation in skin thickness at any point that they want. Their automatic tape laying machines can start and stop on command; they do not need to lay continuous strips.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):
The charge will move through the frames and, surprise, surprise, the longitudinal joint straps.

But how does it get to the frames? If lightning strikes a nonconductive surface it tends to blow a hole in it. If there is a conductor underneath it will blow through to it. The surface still has to be conductive to avoid damage, and then you need a conductive path to the frame, which can be provided by the fasteners. But I do not see how you can avoid damage without a conductive skin in the event the strike occurs between frames, or not directly on a fastener.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
romeokc10fe
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:27 am

I just saw a report on CNN Europe that said Airbus and GE are in a tiff about something, that could delay the program!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Romeokc10fe (Reply 74):
I just saw a report on CNN Europe that said Airbus and GE are in a tiff about something, that could delay the program!

Lots of discussion in this forum about the tiff, though it likely will not delay the program.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Romeokc10fe (Reply 74):
I just saw a report on CNN Europe that said Airbus and GE are in a tiff about something, that could delay the program!

I don't think that it will cause a delay for the program. GE is saying they aren't going to develop a new engine just for the A350XWB. But Rolls Royce is on board.
 
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PM
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 37):
So why do you put a Japanese flag?

Because I live in Japan. I believe that's how quite a few posters choose to interpret the field in 'Profile' where it says "Country" (not, note, "nationality").

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 37):
Why not be honest about your citizenship?

I wasn't aware I was being dishonest.

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 37):
utter contempt

Uh? On the basis of one brief post above?! It was you I was taking a swipe at; not 300 million people or an entire nation. Boy, I really have trod on your toes and no mistake!

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 37):
you as a European can teach American History and that is not a problem.

Doesn't appear to be. Why would it?

So I guess you won't be putting me on your RU list... Sad
 
kellmark
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting PM (Reply 77):
So I guess you won't be putting me on your RU list

How could you guess so easily?
 
aminobwana
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 76):
I don't think that it will cause a delay for the program. GE is saying they aren't going to develop a new engine just for the A350XWB. But Rolls Royce is on board.

I am not sure. Possibly GE will develop an engine jointly for A3510 and B7811. I assume that the design must be adequate to allow both alternatives RR and GE, and if the GE data comes very late, it could delay the aircraft !!??
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 73):
The mandrels are ramped to account for the changes in thickness, and they are not one piece; they are disassembled from inside the barrels after they are cured

I didn't know that their mandrels can be disassembled from inside. Thanks for the info.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 73):
But how does it get to the frames?



Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):
Yes the panel will have some metallic mesh, but nothing like the 787.

There will be a light thin metallic mesh that will be responsible for transferring the charge to the aluminium cage.

I think this thread has gone way out of topic.

Goodnight.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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glideslope
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
As things stand, there is no indication that the A350 will enter service before its current date of 2013.

IMO, 2013 will be very difficult to meet. I'm still going with 2015 EIS. I expect an early 09 Design Freeze, not late 08.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 81):
IMO, 2013 will be very difficult to meet. I'm still going with 2015 EIS. I expect an early 09 Design Freeze, not late 08.

Is late 08 design freeze, or just configuration freeze. IE freezing it to "2 engines, 2 wings, 1 tail, etc, etc,"
 
grantcv
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:03 am

Airliner generations seem to be spaced a dozen years apart - give or take. The Boeing 787 marks the start of a new generation of airliner and is the result of a dozen years of technology development by Boeing. The fact that the 787 development cycle is a short four years doesn't really account for the full effort - the 787 is the result of Boeing's technology advancement since the 777. Airbus, on the other hand, spent a lot of their energy since the A330/A340 on pushing the A380. Way back in the 1990's it was the A3XX and it took a very long time to get launched - and now it has taken a very long time to get developed. But for all that effort, it didn't build up Airbus' technology base to the same extent Boeing has advanced. Then, with success, Airbus got cocky (due to a certain American involved) and dismissed the 787 as Boeing's attempt to copy the A330. That arrogance was a huge mistake for it squandered time. Now Airbus has to do what it can in the next six years to try and develop their next generation of technologies. But the problem is that in trying to develop a new generation of technologies in half the time, the result is a generational half step (or maybe a little more - but not a full generation - no bleedless technology or composite barrel fuselage) and the result arrives half a generation late.

The good news for Airbus is that they are now on a path to stop falling technologically behind - and the pains they have suffered should help erase some of the arrogance which led to their recent missteps. The bad news is that they aren't really catching up. Boeing isn't going to stand still and wait for them. Boeing too will have moved forward a half generation or so in the coming six years. We will only know how mended Airbus is when we see what happens when the A320 and 737 are replaced. Will Airbus lead the way, match Boeing, or trail from behind?
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:13 am

ok- so if a new powerplant is possibly not being developed and if aluminum is not the most advance material to use for building an aircraft. then as a person who ain't an engineer- I just don't see how the 350 can be superior to the 787. as a matter of fact if this is being built several years after the 787 with today's technology then it would actually be inferior wouldn't it? Flysherwood, I would have to agree with you. I think you've nailed in on the head. Now you I can understand!
 
qfsis
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:15 am

Early ???

You mean like the A380 ???

 duck   rotfl   duck 
 
Dougloid
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 73):
Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):
The charge will move through the frames and, surprise, surprise, the longitudinal joint straps.

But how does it get to the frames? If lightning strikes a nonconductive surface it tends to blow a hole in it. If there is a conductor underneath it will blow through to it. The surface still has to be conductive to avoid damage, and then you need a conductive path to the frame, which can be provided by the fasteners. But I do not see how you can avoid damage without a conductive skin in the event the strike occurs between frames, or not directly on a fastener.

Aluminum or not, anyone who's ever worked on an airplane that was struck by lightning will tell you that there will be arcing and burns at every joint from ingress to egress.

I worked on a Merlin one time that had been hit by lightning. The number 2 prop was hit, and it slung off enough metal from the prop to put craters in the copilot's windshield. The charge traveled through the engine, magnetizing every ferrous part and arcing at every bearing surface. The charge exited out the tailcone of the engine, traveled down the rear spar, into the fuselage and out the static discharger at the tailcone of the aircraft.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
elvis777
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:21 am

Howdy all,

I jsut got back and dont have time to add to the discussion (or answer questions directed at me) but I found this link which might add a bit more to my idea that eads is working on monolithick parts....Actually it kid of dismisses my point......

Peace

Elvis777

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/archives/117843.asp
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:43 am

Also interesting that Mr. Wallace confirmed JL called Boeing's process "old fashioned":

Quote:
BTW: I have been asked a number of times if John Leahy, the Airbus sales chief and chief commercial officer, when I asked him at the air show about Hazy's concerns, told me that Boeing's one-piece barrel approach was "old fashioned.'' That was from a direct quote. I have it on tape.

Guess we can finally put that one to rest.
 
romeokc10fe
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:35 am

This is interesting, no big deal but interesting

Airbus pulls video of A350 XWB in customer liveries due to factual error
By Barbara Cockburn

Airbus has been forced to pull its promotional video of A350 XWB customer liveries from its website after Flight International highlighted to the company that two of the featured carriers - United Arab Emirates-based Emirates Airlines and Etihad Airways - have not announced orders for the twinjet.

Airbus pulled the video from its website because it depicted customer liveries including Etihad and Emirates, even though the UAE-based airlines are currently evaluating the twinjet along with the Boeing 787 to complete their fleets.

Customers featured in the video that have placed orders of the aircraft include Finnair, Singapore Airlines, Pegasus and Kingfisher.

An Airbus spokesman blamed the error on an external supplier which it had contracted to produce the video, and said that there were no plans to announce A350 XWB orders for either of the UAE carriers.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tomer-liveries-due-to-factual.html
 
NAV20
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 87):
I found this link which might add a bit more to my idea that eads is working on monolithick parts....Actually it kind of dismisses my point......

Not sure that it does dismiss it, Elvis777.   There's always a 'tolerance' in the early stages of any design - sometimes as much as 5% each way on the key issues like performance, cost, etc. It's very possible that the top people at Airbus have made promises based on the '105%' performance figures but are constantly being told by the designers, as design work proceeds, that it's looking more and more like 95% if they are required to use what can be described as 'old-fashioned' construction methods (with apologies to Leahy  ).

All the signs are that something is causing a big rift at the top of EADS - and that 'it,' whatever it is, will shortly precipitate further big changes, very possibly including the demotion of Gallois and the elevation of Enders to sole CEO:-

"EADS’s main private sector shareholders have agreed in principle to a single management structure in which Tom Enders, the German co-chief executive officer, would head the company, according to a report in the International Herald Tribune.

"Under a plan to streamline EADS, the newspaper said that the chief executive would be named by DaimlerChrysler, the leading German shareholder, and the chairman of EADS would be chosen by Lagardère together with the French State. Sources close to the negotiations between EADS shareholders said: “A French-German entente has been reached . . . it is a done deal.”

"The deal is expected to lead to the appointment of Mr Enders as sole chief executive of EADS, with fellow chief Louis Gallois to remain as head of the Airbus unit."


http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ors/engineering/article2045693.ece

It's pretty certain that if Enders does take charge there will be changes - and those changes may well include a decision that Airbus has no option but to follow Boeing's lead and develop and employ all-composite construction for all future products, including the A350.

[Edited 2007-07-11 05:25:59]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
insiderinfo
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:40 pm

okay guy's...

i'm not sure just hw much Airbus really wants the A350 to be a 787 competitor....they'll likely use the concept...copy some of the design and technology concepts and then launch their version of the 777 Dreamliner. hence the A350 XWB..before boeing gets a replacement NG777 out...

why try to catch up to a boat you've already missed..?....almost 700 orders...hard to catch up 5 years later...

in 2013 many many airlines will be looking at starting to replace the 973 777's that have been order upto today...by the time the life cycle is over for the current 777...my gues boeing will have gotten 1400 or so orders....

Airbus will likely be trying to position the A350 to become the replacement aircraft of choice for 777 customers from 2013 onwards...granted some will retire earlier....not too many but some...hence BA small 777 orders...just to replace most aged aircraft because they don't have much choice for a completely new aircarft right now....


The 767 picked up 779 orders ...and it's pretty much done....i'd rather design for a 1400 frame replacement market than a 779 replacement market.

Yes Airbus may be also marketing the A350 as a dreamliner competitor....rightfully so...it takes some of the attention off the dreamliner.....maybe even put some airlines on the sidelines...and slow 787 orders down...that was all a clever ploy....and it seems to have worked....somewhot...and I say somewhot....WHY...

let's look at the amount of a350XWB orders..original a350 are all essentially VOID..

so you'll notice that most of the orders are actually MOU's...being a lawyer...i'll assure you that MOU's have NO legal binding..infact almost never even require a deposit....most original A350 orders were orders...since then ..conversions and recent orders have been mostly MOU's...that's beacuse Airbus pushed most airliners to sign..with no consequences....(expect for maybe lose some face when the program doesn't eventually fly).......and i'm sure they gave a pretty incenetive to help them agree to ...it was just to rally support for the aircarft..and help in the case of gaining approval from the investment community to back the project...and support of other carriers..

Also...come on think about it....how could any airline even place a firm order for an aircraft ($200m) that doen't even have a firm design...no hard specifications.....nothing..infact..today no more than a few pictures and a concept...yes they may have millions of blue prints...but nothing official enough to warrant an order...put yourself in the airlines shoes..would you order a car off a blueprint with no performance garantees

no carrier has hinged their future growth plans on the a350 orders simply due to the fact that they cannot risk the programme not taking off...or a fiasco like the A380.....excpet for maybe QR....who are somewhat showing their concerns by also ordering the 787 and securing options....for an aircraft they know they can defeintly get...


let's not forget the A350 isn'tt a dome deal by any means...not even firmly specified yet...
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 91):
why try to catch up to a boat you've already missed..?....almost 700 orders...hard to catch up 5 years later...

The 787 / 777 / A330 / A350 medium widebody market is forecast to be 5000 to 6000 aircraft over the next 20 years. For perspective, consider that Boeing has yet to build its 3000th widebody aircraft, ever. It is a staggeringly large market, much larger than Boeing could ever hope to fill all by itself. A 700-order head start is daunting, but certainly no reason to pack up and go home. IMHO Airbus need only come up with a competent design to sell 1500 - 2000 units over the lifetime of the program.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 57):
All this aside, I have no doubt that the A350 will be a more economical plane than anything else in the skies except the 787.

If you figure this assumed 'exception' of yours on the basis of the panels vs. barrels issue, I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. There is little evidence at this point in time to determine with any certainty which will be the more economical plane.
 
elvis777
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:02 pm

Hi Nav20,

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 90):
"The deal is expected to lead to the appointment of Mr Enders as sole chief executive of EADS, with fellow chief Louis Gallois to remain as head of the Airbus unit."

Yes I had heard about the proposed deal to make enders the CEO of eads and Gallois the airbus guy. This may be a bit too much to swallow for Sarkozy as he has restated his goals to push for more french control and has set forth an aggressive (state sponsored) aerospace agenda. But perhaps it will come to pass.

And if it does and enders wants to impose his will - might gallois not become unhappy? What will happen if he starts to go against the wishes of enders.... Does enders have the autority to can gallois if push comes to shove? Interesting times!

Also, I think that there might be a group within eads engineering beavering away at the whole barrel thing and IF performance or maintenance requirements are falling a teensy bit short Perhaps the barrel guys will be called upon and they will have to cowboy up and deliver on the barrel design and hence the possible delay (2015??). Interesting times indeed!

Peace

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
insiderinfo
Posts: 73
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RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:19 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 92):
The 787 / 777 / A330 / A350 medium widebody market is forecast to be 5000 to 6000 aircraft over the next 20 years.

Again guys...!!!!..YES 787/777/330/350 a 6000 frame market....but let's not put them in the same category...that's my point...

787/330 one market worth 2500 to 3000 frames .....777/350 another market worth 2500-3000 frames...

now look at the market position....700 orders ahead in a 2500- 3000 plane market with the 787...and my opinion is that in the next few months...the gap will grow further in Boeing's favor.....

Finally...EVERYONE....during your discussions...never forget..MOU's have NO value(okay...maybe very little...and I mean very little)....alot less value than options and slots even....
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 15):
Does anyone honestly believe that EADS/Airbus will be able to outsource to the same extent that Boeing has done, what with the politics in Europe?



Quoting Kellmark (Reply 15):
Also, when Airbus really goes for the state aid that they desperately need to make this thing go, there will be a real dog fight over that as well.

There-in is the problem. Since EADS has indicated that state aid will be required, I bet its safe to say that this state aid will have some serious requirements on jobs: which could further delay the power8.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
Let's not forget that the smoke screen that was the 'Sonic Cruiser' hid a lot of composite research that meant that Boeing could truly catch Airbus off guard with the 7E7/787 and make it look like they had a short development time.

I do believe that the SC was a serious effort, but the price of gas which has more that tripled killed it off.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 26):
then started prattling on about the Sonic Cruiser which everyone knew would never fly

see above

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 29):
It seems to me the complete lack of "options" in the recent contracts for any airbus indicates that they would rather have as many "firm" orders than to have contracts that have penalties for not taking frames.

This could very well be the case. It all seems highly improbable to me; these are probably few strings attached orders with WA (walk away clauses) by the new investors (Qatar etc.)

Quoting PM (Reply 31):
I've been to more American States (40) than most Americans I know and I teach American History.

Hey, I've been to all 51 states, including the really big one just above Michigan  stirthepot 

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 33):
there is no reason to claim barrels are better than panels or vice versa.

Kane, I remember a while back when you started doing flip-flops on the 350 Rev. 1 wing claiming it was the best way to go. I seriously think you don't believe what you are saying, but are trying to throw up a smoke screen. We're onto you  Smile

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 52):
At the moment the panels with lengthwise joints/aluminium frames combination, will actually save some weight.

I know you'll be coming back and reporting the truth in a few months or so  Wink .

I know it, you know it, and I know that you know that I know you know it  Smile

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 52):
Oh, and about the marketplace having decided otherwise, 200 orders for the A350, 5 years before EIS suggest otherwise.

Try 200 orders almost 3-years after launch, and you'll see the numbers are less inspiring, especially for a plane that is to serve a huge market.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 52):
Airlines don't care about panels or barrels.

Apparently, SUH, founder of Airbus's largest customer thinks otherwise.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 61):
The A350 only needs to be as good as the B787 in order to sell.

I'd even go a little farther. If its almost as good it will still do well. Just look at the 772/330 stats.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):
Unless you know something that I don't, you can't ramp up and down the inside skin surface when using it as a manufacturing datum.

It is not that hard at all. You are assuming a fixed mandrel cross section, which in fact is not the case, and moreover the mandrel is composed of multiple sections.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 80):
I didn't know that their mandrels can be disassembled from inside. Thanks for the info.

There ya go....

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 62):
The lightning issue is not bogus, Airbus has specifically designed the so called "aluminium cage" for that reason. Yes the panel will have some metallic mesh, but nothing like the 787. The charge will move through the frames and, surprise, surprise, the longitudinal joint straps.

I think the "almuminum cage" is a bunch of baloney. You'll still need mesh to get current from the skin to the aluminum frame. Don't forget, the aluminum frame will be fiberglass coated to prevent galvantic corrosion of the aluminum, and so the electric path to the cage could be tricky. Furthermore, its almost exactly what is in the 787, (i.e. metal stringers running along the lenght of the AC), so don't expact major weight savings there.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 80):
There will be a light thin metallic mesh that will be responsible for transferring the charge to the aluminium cage.



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 65):
The reason Airbus got caught napping is they were otherwise occupied designing Big Porky

 rotfl  Expect flamage and deleted posts for your arrogance  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 65):
Ole Swampgas hisself saying that if it burned more fuel they'd just write the operators a check

 rotfl 

Quoting Romeokc10fe (Reply 89):
An Airbus spokesman blamed the error on an external supplier which it had contracted to produce the video, and said that there were no plans to announce A350 XWB orders for either of the UAE carriers.

Now that is indeed interesting. I expect that this was a "strategic leak" on Airbus's part to steal some thunder from the Dreamliner celebrations. Nice move; and I mean that sincerely.

iwok
 
insiderinfo
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:43 am

RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 94):
Try 200 orders almost 3-years after launch, and you'll see the numbers are less inspiring, especially for a plane that is to serve a huge market.

WHAT 200 ORDERS.....??????

I'll repost this paragraph.....

let's look at the amount of a350XWB orders..original a350 are all essentially VOID..

so you'll notice that most of the orders are actually MOU's...being a lawyer...i'll assure you that MOU's have NO legal binding..infact almost never even require a deposit....most original A350 orders were orders...since then ..conversions and recent orders have been mostly MOU's...that's beacuse Airbus pushed most airliners to sign..with no consequences....(expect for maybe lose some face when the program doesn't eventually fly).......and i'm sure they gave a pretty incenetive to help them agree to ...it was just to rally support for the aircarft..and help in the case of gaining approval from the investment community to back the project...and support of other carriers..

Also...come on think about it....how could any airline even place a firm order for an aircraft ($200m) that doen't even have a firm design...no hard specifications.....nothing..infact..today no more than a few pictures and a concept...yes they may have millions of blue prints...but nothing official enough to warrant an order...put yourself in the airlines shoes..would you order a car off a blueprint with no performance garantees

no carrier has hinged their future growth plans on the a350 orders simply due to the fact that they cannot risk the programme not taking off...or a fiasco like the A380.....excpet for maybe QR....who are somewhat showing their concerns by also ordering the 787 and securing options....for an aircraft they know they can defeintly get...

let's not forget the A350 isn'tt a dome deal by any means...not even firmly specified yet...
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 93):
This may be a bit too much to swallow for Sarkozy as he has restated his goals to push for more french control

Agreed, Elvis777 - but Sarkozy is not in a position to dictate anything, he only controls 22.5% of the voting rights, same as Daimler-Chrysler. Even he has to 'deal rather than steal.' If he gets to appoint the Chairman he retains ultimate control, in theory anyway; the Chairman rather than the CEO has the final say under the Articles.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 93):
And if it does and enders wants to impose his will - might gallois not become unhappy?

You bet!  Smile

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 93):
Does enders have the autority to can gallois if push comes to shove?

If he gets to be CEO, yes, bien sur, jawohl. As you say, interesting times........

On his track record, Enders is the best businessman among them. The day-to-day 'split' between the two CEOs has been that Gallois (previously Forgeard) mainly runs Airbus, and Enders runs the military side. Enders quietly turned the military side from a loss to a profit a couple of years ago; just as well, it's only the military profits that are keeping EADS afloat at present.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 93):
I think that there might be a group within eads engineering beavering away at the whole barrel thing and IF performance or maintenance requirements are falling a teensy bit short Perhaps the barrel guys will be called upon and they will have to cowboy up and deliver on the barrel design

That's the (distinct) possibility that we both recognise.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 93):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 90):
"The deal is expected to lead to the appointment of Mr Enders as sole chief executive of EADS, with fellow chief Louis Gallois to remain as head of the Airbus unit."

This is announced and denied continuously during the last week,the last denial by EADS as of today:

http://www.avionews.com/index.php?co...1076629&pagina_chiamante=index.php
"EADS: no nominations for the board yet"

Further the German Government through its Chancellor insists that the shareholder pact, with mutual veto rights in the Board by the French and German groups must be maintained, which obviously would restrict very much the actions both of the CEOs of EADS and Airbus

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/...AT001820_RTRIDST_0_EADS-MERKEL.XML
Franco-German balance must remain at EADS-Merkel

Hopefully, these problems can be ironed out during the Chirac/Merkel summit and a real effective solution agreed, including the financing problem.

Then, A350 problems as the barrel/panel issue could be really addressed .

aminobwana
 
azhobo
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:52 pm

RE: Will The A350 Be Introduced Early?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 37):
How ironic. You seem to make a living teaching about a country for which you seem to have utter contempt. And your attitude about Americans seems to be that they cannot know anything about European politics, but yet you as a European can teach American History and that is not a problem.

Seems unnecessary. And by the way you can find many american university professors who have complete contempt for everything american.

HOBO

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos