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Maersk737
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 49):
Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 47):
Will this work for Boeing ? Just wa�t and see what Airbus will come up with, and we will do it better. Are You sure the potential costumers will wait?

Many did for Airbus and the A350...

Did what? I thought the A350 was a much bigger plane?

Cheers

Peter
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Stitch
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 50):
Did what? I thought the A350 was a much bigger plane?

Before Airbus went with the A350XWB, they told a number of customer to wait to see what they could come up with on the original A350. A number of airlines, including SQ, waited to see what the original A350 would become, then chose the 787, anyway. Alas, they found themselves so far behind other airlines that didn't wait that they now had to lease or buy 767s, 777s, A330s, and A340s to tide them over until they get the 787.

Yes, Airbus went larger with the "A350XWB", but that has now compelled some airlines who, even wanting the A350XWB, also wanted to buy the original smaller A350 and now have to go back and buy 787s. Airlines like QR, for example.
 
Maersk737
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
A number of airlines, including SQ, waited to see what the original A350 would become, then chose the 787, anyway. Alas, they found themselves so far behind other airlines that didn't wait that they now had to lease or buy 767s, 777s, A330s, and A340s to tide them over until they get the 787.

And you think the airlines will do the same mistake again?  Wink

Cheers

Peter
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Stitch
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 52):
And you think the airlines will do the same mistake again?  wink 

Airbus has benefited from lack of availability because of strong 787 sales. I see no reason why Boeing can't benefit from lack of availability because of strong A350 sales.
 
khobar
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:59 am

One has to wonder what Mr. Dixon is basing his statements on considering other airlines have been very public about the lack of information on the new aircraft. Airbus has been writing contractual performance guarantees into purchase agreements, though no one really knows what they are given QR's comments. Still, maybe this is what has Mr. Dixon excited? This on the heels of Dixon's bad-mouthing Boeing - I dunno, I wouldn't be too surprised at an A350 order and another follow-on order for A380's.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
Well I guess QF flies the 747 instead of the 777 for a reason, even though they were part of "Working Together" and that reason may very well negate the A350-1000 for QF, even though Dixon says he is looking at it, too.

Qantas flies the 744/744ER because they were available years before the 773ER and the 772ER wouldn't do the same job as the 747's.

As far as the 773ER at Qantas is concerned, it now falls between the twin stools of Qantas' commitment to the A380 and the new technology of the 787/A350.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Maersk737
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
Airbus has benefited from lack of availability because of strong 787 sales. I see no reason why Boeing can't benefit from lack of availability because of strong A350 sales.

The sales ain't that strong for the time being, but maybe you are right in the long run  Smile

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
The most important benchmark for QF is payload over range. That is why they pushed Boeing to build the 744ER because they needed that extra fuel to haul more payload. The 77W has an inferior payload over range profile then the 744 and 744ER, which is why airlines like QF and UA didn't buy it (and in QF's case, the 777 period) because they required what only the 744 can offer them at the time.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
Well I guess QF flies the 747 instead of the 777 for a reason, even though they were part of "Working Together" and that reason may very well negate the A350-1000 for QF, even though Dixon says he is looking at it, too.

Actually, Qantas were on the verge of purchasing the 777 about ten years ago (very very very close), but the reason they didn't had nothing to do with payload / range. The reason was the Asian Economic Crisis provided Qantas an opportunity to pick up 747-400 airplanes from Asian Airlines dirt cheap.

I'm sure that there is more to Qantas' reasons......

The A380/A330 buy a few years later pretty much sealed the fate of the 777 at Qantas.

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Shenzhen
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 54):
One has to wonder what Mr. Dixon is basing his statements on considering other airlines have been very public about the lack of information on the new aircraft. Airbus has been writing contractual performance guarantees into purchase agreements, though no one really knows what they are given QR's comments. Still, maybe this is what has Mr. Dixon excited? This on the heels of Dixon's bad-mouthing Boeing - I dunno, I wouldn't be too surprised at an A350 order and another follow-on order for A380's.

Probably the mockup in Toulouse, as the article basically stated he was in France just a few days before Seattle. Honestly, these guys don't spend a whole lot of time comparing airplane types, and might not know the difference if they were given a picture of a 787 and a picture of an A350 in Qantas colors (they would have a 50 - 50 chance).

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TeamAmerica
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 56):
The sales ain't that strong for the time being, but maybe you are right in the long run

The sales race is only just beginning. Until now, Boeing could deliver aircraft sooner - today the earliest available slots are near enough to being equal. Granted that Airbus has surrendered a head start of about 500 orders, to fairly compare the aircraft in the market we need to watch what happens from here forward.

Part of the advantage Airbus has with the A320 is their ability to build them faster. As it stands, Boeing appears to have a similar advantage in availability with the B787. We endlessly debate the technical aspects of the A350, but I see the foremost issue facing Airbus to be the ability to build them in sufficient quantities and at a cost to compete with Boeing.

Industrialization is the great unknown, and likely is a huge factor in decisions such as the selection of panels over barrels.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
WAH64D
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 59):
The sales race is only just beginning. Until now, Boeing could deliver aircraft sooner - today the earliest available slots are near enough to being equal. Granted that Airbus has surrendered a head start of about 500 orders, to fairly compare the aircraft in the market we need to watch what happens from here forward.

Part of the advantage Airbus has with the A320 is their ability to build them faster. As it stands, Boeing appears to have a similar advantage in availability with the B787. We endlessly debate the technical aspects of the A350, but I see the foremost issue facing Airbus to be the ability to build them in sufficient quantities and at a cost to compete with Boeing.

Industrialization is the great unknown, and likely is a huge factor in decisions such as the selection of panels over barrels.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Very well put!
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jacobin777
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):

True, but we still see airlines adding 772ERs as their first type as well as doing 772ER add-ons rather then going to the 772LR, which is almost the same price once discounts are added. On the flip side, we also see airlines doing the opposite (AI, AC and DL, for example), so maybe it's a wash.

...one really doesn't see too many -200ER sales anymore.. crying ....just a few "top up" orders such as BA's, etc.....in fact, since January 2005, only 20 -200ER's have been ordered  crying  cry  while 39 -200LR's have been ordered  biggrin  as well as 77 -200F's being ordered  bigthumbsup 
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aussie747
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 34):
There is no reason Boeing cannot do both really. The 787-10 without major changes would suit a lot of airlines. However I think they will wait and see the final specs on the A350-900 and 1000 and they will then design 2 new 787 models with new undercarriage and wings to compete with those. Really they don't have to launch the program until 2010 or so because they could still get them out before Airbus can get the A350 into service.

However I suspect you will hear something around the same time as the A350 specs start to firm up. It makes the most sense after all. Once they commit to the plan they can start some preliminary work and let airlines know that they are working on a 300 seat or so version and a 330-350 seat version and will finalize the specs once the A350 is done.

I suspect you see 787-10 and 787-11 programs by the end of next year at the latest, though I am sure work is already being done on both internally.

Dixon was quoted he will make a decision next year one way or another. So if Boeing won't produce a 10ER as Qantas request it will go and order the A350-1000, just as EK will I suggest. The ball is in Boeings court, don't miss the boat guys. However as has been stated in the above posts this is a limited market. Its where they draw the line at ROI I guess
 
insiderinfo
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 11):
Hmm -

787 launched 26/04/04 - sales 677 in 3.25 years

XWB launched 01/12/06 - sales 170 in 0.75 years

does someone know many of the 170 are firm...and not LOI's and MOU's..?'

Boeing's count is over 700 firm this week..
 
WAH64D
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 63):
does someone know many of the 170 are firm...and not LOI's and MOU's..?'

Boeing's count is over 700 firm this week..

As of 6 July, 154 firm and 100 LOI/MOU, a possible but improbable 254 so far.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
insiderinfo
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 64):
As of 6 July, 154 firm and 100 LOI/MOU, a possible but improbable 254 so far.

so i guess the real deal is:

787 launched 26/04/04 - sales 700 in 3.25 years

XWB launched 01/12/06 - sales 154 in 0.75 years ..

don't quite think that's the same rate...

i think it's safe to say that Boeing are a litt;e ahead...

hopefully we'll start to see the Airbus orders get traction and the run rate increase with time...and maybe those 100 LOI/MOU's will be firmed up..at least the LOI's...fat chance of the MOU's...that's why they're MOU's right..!...a no penalty ticket out of the contract..!
 
WAH64D
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 65):
so i guess the real deal is:

787 launched 26/04/04 - sales 700 in 3.25 years

XWB launched 01/12/06 - sales 154 in 0.75 years ..

don't quite think that's the same rate...

i think it's safe to say that Boeing are a litt;e ahead...

I don't think its fair to compare the two in so far as orders over a given time period are concerned. It doesn't work like that or you'd have an exact set in stone number of orders to be expected every month. The B787 is now in prototype stage, the XWB is not yet even at design freeze, its doing exceptionally well so far.

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 65):
hopefully we'll start to see the Airbus orders get traction and the run rate increase with time...and maybe those 100 LOI/MOU's will be firmed up..at least the LOI's...fat chance of the MOU's...that's why they're MOU's right..!...a no penalty ticket out of the contract..!

The orders will continue to grow and on a personal note I would expect to see at least 550 orders at EIS. Remember that it is a larger aircraft and therefore is not expected to sell as many frames as B787.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:25 am

How much possibilities Airbus has to book an order from Qantas depend very much of the final outcome of the Le Bourget agreements you are addressing:

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 65):
Quoting WAH64D (Reply 64):
As of 6 July, 154 firm and 100 LOI/MOU, a possible but improbable 254 so far.

so i guess the real deal is:

787 launched 26/04/04 - sales 700 in 3.25 years

XWB launched 01/12/06 - sales 154 in 0.75 years ..

It is really very difficult make this comparison, as Airbus and Boeing use a very different ctiteria what orders areto be considered firm.

As you realize, Boeing has still not included Qantas, Qatar, Arkia etc., factually the only ones booked after 7/8 were Air Berlin and Alafco.

They neither booked the 22 frames from Aeroflot, contrary to what Airbus did.

This is a sound policy considering how fickle customers as QR and SU are, not to book orders before all the formalities are done and the advance paid !!!

And than, there is the issue of the QR order to Airbus, where the customer states that the provisional data received is not complete enough and declares that the agreement allows him to walk if the data received later is not satisfactory. Some consider this not a firm order. Another issue is how many of these 80 are eventually options. Nevertheless, I do no doubt that there will be a firmed up Qatar order, I am not so sure regarding the final firm qantities.

Anyway, I assume that in a few months, these issues will be clarified and then we can made comparisons.

best regards

aminobwana
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:54 am

Maybe in a year Dixon can say that about the A380s he bought... if he has gotten one by then (sorry -- couldn't resist).

Love how the execs try to wind up Boeing and Airbus to get a better deal for themselves. You'd think they would consider their share holders saying, "Hey dummy, then why didn't you order those last week!"

All these things are good or bad on paper. Until they do the proving flights... it's all paper perfomance. And,unfortunately, Airbus is lakcing a bit of credibility on paper promises... A380 projected EIS, A340 performance, etc.

Wonder where Dixon will get his GE engines for the A350? Airbus needs to back down and sort that one out... sniping at GenEx was not a good move.

Leahy is a smart guy and a great marketer. I am sure the A350 will sell.

Boeing was smart with 777-300ER. Subtle release (by other bench marks), exceed perfomance specs promised, then have Air France, in Airbus's backyard, certify the plane exceed their performance expectations. Will be interesting to see if the LR adds up to expectations after a year or so of operations.
 
insiderinfo
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:35 am

We are looking very, very carefully at the A350," Dixon said during the 787's roll-out in Everett near Seattle last week, adding: "There is no doubt the A350 now is a very, very good aircraft."

these comments are right on..it will be a very very good aircraft....the issue i think is confidence in getting it into service and meeting the spec's..that are not actually firm yet...

launched 2 years ago...before the a380 debacle..this jet would have sold like no jet before...airbus didn't help their situation with their approach to the resolution..and now this seems like a desperate bid to get back infront...i just hope they really take their time in building this plane right..

I can just imagine Airbus' future and the future of the A350XWB...if the A380 starts to have issues once in service...i prey thats not the case...
 
ikramerica
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:52 am

when evaluating the 787 vs. original A350, Dixon said it was very "close" and everyone took that to mean the products were nearly interchangeable and Boeing basically won on pricing. QF could have gone 'either way' according to some esteamed a.netters who claim to know everything about the inner workings of QF...

All that commentary seems to be so wrong at this point, all that puffery was just that, puffery, and the A350 needed to be redesigned soon after and the 787 has sold over 700 frames, over 1/2 of them since that point.

Now Dixon says similar things about the new A350X, and again, we are supposed to take his comments at complete face value instead of gamesmanship, when last time it was obviously gamesmanship?

The last A350 had to be "very very good" for QF to "almost" choose it over the 787 the first time, right? Otherwise, were they waffling about which "not so good" jet to order? Or were they inflating the Airbus product to put a scare into Boeing?

So is this new A350X "very, very more good?"

It probably is very good. QF is evaluating it, but all indications point to QF buying the 787-10, including the comments by Dixon saying they will! He has already said that the A380 and 787 represent the future of QF, and that means QF came to the conclusion they don't need a 77W sized aircraft.

I find it funny that the same people who used to say that all 744s can be replaced with A380s and nobody would want to downsize to a 77W are now saying things like QF needs an A350-1000 to replace some of the 744s that won't be replaced by A380s. Has the thinking on downsizing among this group miraculously changed because Airbus is now offering a suitable aircraft rather than just Boeing? Why is it that QF never needed the 77W but all of a sudden won't be able to do without a plane the size of the 350-1000?

History of QF's fleet and Dixon's comments tells us not to read too much into a QF A350X order any time soon...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
grantcv
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:20 pm

What about the A350 is remarkable? It does not have the full composite barrel fuselage of the 787, or the bleedless system. Its engine is a development of one of the engines for the 787, with the other engine currently unavailable. It competes more with the 777 than the 787, but with a narrower fuselage. All the economic comparisons I have heard have come from JL and seem based on funny math, so I disregard them as merely hyperbole. So I must be missing something. What is it about the A350 that pushes it to the forefront of technology? What frontiers does it extend to achieve new effeciencies? I am not looking for performance claims, I am wondering what there is behind those claims to back them up?
 
plunaaircanada
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:22 pm

lol this is like a cold war  duck 
 
aminobwana
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 71):
What about the A350 is remarkable?



Quoting Grantcv (Reply 71):
What about the A350 is remarkable?

That they are selling it in spite of all what you say, basing performance guarantee and incomplete provisional specs.

The reason is, aside pricing, because airlines want to help Airbus (but protecting their interest) to stay as a full competitor of Boeing. As Al-Bakr stated: if the specs finally are not satisfactory, he could walk, so he is protecting the interests of QR double-fold:
* If all goes well, it gets the B350XWB at the price of the 20-25% cheaper old A350; the delivery time gap is covered by the 30 B787 order:
* if not and he walks, he gets the 30 B787 first and exercise the option for other 30. So, he can only win and in worst case, not loose.
And if he does not need 80 A350 (assuming all are firm orders and none of them options ??) he has surly enough flexibility in his contract to cancel a part of it, or he could resell the excess.

regards

aminobwama
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 71):
What about the A350 is remarkable?

Forget all the bells & whistles.

(1) It uses CFRP wings (lest we forget that wings weigh more than a whole fuselage structure!), and co-cured CFRP fuselage skins & stringers. This, combined with its large size, give it excellent structural efficiency.

(2) It sports engines with a specific fuel consumption much lower than current generation engines, and likely a shade better than the Trent 1000 and GEnx-1B that are about to take flight on the 787. Having been optimized from the start, these will always be a shade better than a "tweaked" 787 engine where key dimensions and fundamental design parameters can no longer be practically (cheaply) altered. This gives it excellent propulsive efficiency.

(3) It has a large wing (larger than the 77W) designed with the latest CFD codes, which, while perhaps one size too large for the A358, will give the A350-1000 and a possible future A350-1100 excellent aerodynamic efficiency.

There you have it: structures, propulsion, aero... the three legs of the fuel efficiency stool, and at very high oil prices in a coming period of great environmental concern, the key drivers of CASM. The A350-1000 will look just like a 77W, fly just like a 77W, but use roughly 15-20% less fuel on any given mission. Its fuel burn and CASM will be the best of any Airbus, period (including that big whale-shaped one). It is possible that airlines will take notice of this.
 
797charter
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 68):
All these things are good or bad on paper. Until they do the proving flights... it's all paper perfomance. And,unfortunately, Airbus is lakcing a bit of credibility on paper promises... A380 projected EIS, A340 performance, etc.

.



Which target missed the A340???



.
Keep it clear of the propellers
 
Maersk737
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting 797charter (Reply 75):
Which target missed the A340???

I would like to know that too ?

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
BestWestern
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 73):

The reason is, aside pricing, because airlines want to help Airbus (but protecting their interest) to stay as a full competitor of Boeing. As Al-Bakr stated: if the specs finally are not satisfactory, he could walk, so he is protecting the interests of QR double-fold:
* If all goes well, it gets the B350XWB at the price of the 20-25% cheaper old A350; the delivery time gap is covered by the 30 B787 order:
* if not and he walks, he gets the 30 B787 first and exercise the option for other 30. So, he can only win and in worst case, not loose.
And if he does not need 80 A350 (assuming all are firm orders and none of them options ??) he has surly enough flexibility in his contract to cancel a part of it, or he could resell the excess.

Source please.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Wsp
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft

Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 77):
Source please.

 shhh  If you looked closely you could read all that in Al Baker's eyes  eyepopping  during the signing ceremony.
 
797charter
Topic Author
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:38 pm

.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 73):
airlines want to help Airbus (but protecting their interest) to stay as a full competitor of Boeing

and buy 80 planes to "help" Airbus ???  banghead   banghead   banghead 
I do not hope that you believe this yourself!



.
Keep it clear of the propellers
 
AvObserver
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:28 pm

Quoting 797charter (Reply 75):
Which target missed the A340???

Just speculation on my part but maybe he's referring to the early weight and service issues that initially dogged the A340-600 model; recall that Airbus really had to work to get weight out of the wing structures and that Virgin Atlantic suffered a fair number of teething issues for being a launch customer. Or it could be a reference to the higher specific fuel consumption of A340-500/600 against competing 777-200LR/300-ER models due to their quad-engine architecture OR to the resulting relative disappointing sales performance of those models.

The A350XWB on paper appears poised to erase the recent A340 models' woes with world-beating performance, however I still think Airbus should have gone for the much less-labor intensive barrel fuselage design to keep the XWB's costs down. And with the value of the Euro continuing to rise over the dollar, Airbus may end up wishing it had outsourced more of the A350 construction out of Europe to cheaper labor markets, even if politically unpopular. However, they can't afford another big delay in this program so the current design will likely largely stand, except for more airline-driven tweaks. It won't really matter much in the end that the XWB doesn't break as much new ground as the 787 if it delivers on its promises. I expect, however, to see Airbus use the barrel method on their next all-new model, whenever that will be, especially if XWB customers maintain concerns over potential maintenance issues with the panel construction approach.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 74):
There you have it: structures, propulsion, aero... the three legs of the fuel efficiency stool, and at very high oil prices in a coming period of great environmental concern, the key drivers of CASM. The A350-1000 will look just like a 77W, fly just like a 77W, but use roughly 15-20% less fuel on any given mission. Its fuel burn and CASM will be the best of any Airbus, period (including that big whale-shaped one). It is possible that airlines will take notice of this.

Very informative Post thanks, you always learn something new at a.net.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 80):
. I expect, however, to see Airbus use the barrel method on their next all-new model, whenever that will be, especially if XWB customers maintain concerns over potential maintenance issues with the panel construction approach.

I agree, the next model will be barrel. IMO they decided for panels because lowest Risk . At the moment Airbus takes it time to make the A350 and be 99,9% sure it will be delivered on time. As you said they cant afford further delays. Their timetable is pretty conservative and this explains all.

However not all customers maintain concerns and even its not barrel, it will have much lower maintenance intervals then planes flying today.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
vfw614
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:02 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 32):
Availability is bound to be a major factor.



Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 59):
We endlessly debate the technical aspects of the A350, but I see the foremost issue facing Airbus to be the ability to build them in sufficient quantities and at a cost to compete with Boeing.

Very well said.

Technical details, the magnitude of orders etc. are discussed here ad nauseam again and again, but only a few folks here take into consideration that with only two manufacturers around a sales bonanza for one of them - for whatever reason - will be helping the other to sell its product because of availability issues. It is obviously assumed in most of these threads that an airline can buy a plane like a can of soda, with every type being available in the required quantities at a delivery date set by the customer. In real life, of course, it is not.

And as things are, not every airline is able to say "Well OK, then let's wait for another five years and continue using our knackered kerosene guzzlers". Advantages one design has may very well be overshadowed by the fact that an airline is unable to replace its existing fleet at the desired dates.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 69):
i just hope they really take their time in building this plane right..

What about designing the A/C 6 (!) years before EIS where Boeing takes 4 years. It's 50% more so we can say they take their time, no ?

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 69):
I can just imagine Airbus' future and the future of the A350XWB...if the A380 starts to have issues once in service...

That won't happen (99.9% sure). The A380 is tested over and over again, in every possible scenarios, including in real airline ops configs, the delays provided the time to do it.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 74):
There you have it: structures, propulsion, aero... the three legs of the fuel efficiency stool, and at very high oil prices in a coming period of great environmental concern, the key drivers of CASM. The A350-1000 will look just like a 77W, fly just like a 77W, but use roughly 15-20% less fuel on any given mission. Its fuel burn and CASM will be the best of any Airbus, period (including that big whale-shaped one). It is possible that airlines will take notice of this.

You put it in a different light. Welcome to my RU list.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 80):
And with the value of the Euro continuing to rise over the dollar

Expect it to have an end eventually, and reverse.
 
Joni
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 68):
Love how the execs try to wind up Boeing and Airbus to get a better deal for themselves.

But one has to wonder, how effective these statements are in actual discussions with the manufacturers.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 80):
Just speculation on my part but maybe he's referring to the early weight and service issues that initially dogged the A340-600 model; recall that Airbus really had to work to get weight out of the wing structures and that Virgin Atlantic suffered a fair number of teething issues for being a launch customer. Or it could be a reference to the higher specific fuel consumption of A340-500/600 against competing 777-200LR/300-ER models due to their quad-engine architecture OR to the resulting relative disappointing sales performance of those models.

Somehow that's not the impression I get. I get the impression the writer erroneously claimed the A340 would have missed performance guarantees given by Airbus. Judge for yourself:

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 68):
All these things are good or bad on paper. Until they do the proving flights... it's all paper perfomance. And,unfortunately, Airbus is lakcing a bit of credibility on paper promises... A380 projected EIS, A340 performance, etc.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:30 pm

Honestly, I don't really expect Dixon to say "every night I get down on my knees and thank the Lord Almighty I bought the 787 instead of the A350".

He may actually do that, mind you, but I don't expect him to admit it to the press...  duck 

Even EK, as much as it praises the 77W in the press, still always makes sure to carp about the price somewhere in those comments to keep Boeing "honest". Big grin
 
trex8
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 70):
when evaluating the 787 vs. original A350, Dixon said it was very "close" and everyone took that to mean the products were nearly interchangeable and Boeing basically won on pricing. QF could have gone 'either way' according to some esteamed a.netters who claim to know everything about the inner workings of QF...

I thought the pundits at the time were talking more about the 787 being available earlier than cheaper.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 77):
Source please.

The sources are mostly declatations of Al-Bakr himself. widely posted within the Forum

The consequences on the future are obviously my educated interpretation.

Quoting 797charter (Reply 79):
and buy 80 planes to "help" Airbus ???

If you think that with your ironic simplistic phrase you destroy my arguments, I beg to difer ! Of course, you are free to think that my assessment that Al-Bakr is acting as a clever businessman covering all bases is wrong

The facts are that he is buying, assuming that the 80 A350 are all orders and non are options, a total of 110 aircraft, plus 30 options with Boeing

And I said very clearly that whilst the helping Airbus by ordering the A350 is surly a factor (I add: not because he is a nice guy, but because Qatar has an substantial investment there), this order, if things go well, would be an excellent deal for QR, (price 350XWB = price of the old 350), but if Airbus fails, he will be able to cover his needs with the 30+30 B787 (I add: should he need more, he could order these later).
So, comparing these deals with a hypothetical straight order for only B787, he would gain a lot in the first case and not loose anything in the second.

aminobwana

,
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 86):
I thought the pundits at the time were talking more about the 787 being available earlier than cheaper.

Likely a mix of both. QF certainly got an excellent price per frame, but many folks seem to forget that with 115 frames, you need a lot of high-margin ancillaries. Spares, Electronic Flight Bags (EFBs), a number of 787 simulators and all the training and support staff that go with them, probably a nice Gold Care contract for the entire lot, etc. etc. That can all amount to a nice seven to eight figures of additional profit per frame.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 84):
Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 68):
Love how the execs try to wind up Boeing and Airbus to get a better deal for themselves.

But one has to wonder, how effective these statements are in actual discussions with the manufacturers

Very little, probably none. . But we should not sub-estimate the capability of each manufacturer to know if the customer is speaking seriously with the other, which if so, obviously would have an impact.

Then: why are they playing this declaration game ?? A cynical answer would be:

Public enhancement of their negotiation ability !! If on the end they get a good deal, they could state that this was achieved by their clever negotiation tactics !

aminobwana
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 70):
when evaluating the 787 vs. original A350, Dixon said it was very "close" and everyone took that to mean the products were nearly interchangeable and Boeing basically won on pricing. QF could have gone 'either way' according to some esteamed a.netters who claim to know everything about the inner workings of QF...

Well, if you look back at the original 787 QF order threads on here, there are links to articles from The Australian newspaper from the QF CEO stating that both Airbus and Boeing had similar pricing, then at the last minute both dropped their prices (adding a week to the announcement) and when that was done, both prices were similar, but Boeing came out better. It was stated at the same time that both aircraft were very similar in terms of what they were promising.

Whether that was just a public line or not, we'll never know - though do remember that at the time the A350 in its original form was going to happen - we didn't know at the time that it'd be cancelled and replaced with a totally new aircraft...
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Maersk737
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 87):
The sources are mostly declatations of Al-Bakr himself. widely posted within the Forum

Please Aminobwana, is this really the best you can come up with?

Peter

[Edited 2007-07-14 17:55:31]
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
CO787EWR
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:52 am

So I am confused here, so OF says they are looking at A350-1000 because Boeing is not offering a plane in this section right?

What I really dont get it this 787-10ER vs. 787-10 debate, what is the difference i know that the ER should have a higher MTOW/. Is Boeing trying to "put off" building a 787-10ER because it will kill off the 777 right?

Thanks for trying to clear this up for me
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 70):
The last A350 had to be "very very good" for QF to "almost" choose it over the 787 the first time, right? Otherwise, were they waffling about which "not so good" jet to order? Or were they inflating the Airbus product to put a scare into Boeing?

Airbus were in the game at Qantas due to the price they were offering their airplane. Over 20 million cheaper, with engines whilst Boeings offer was without.

I think that this is what made it a close decision, not the airplane characterisitics themselves.

Cheers
 
khobar
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 91):
Please Aminobwana, is this really the best you can come up with?

What part of his comments are you trying to contend? Otherwise it looks like you are engaged in a petty personal attack.
 
Maersk737
Posts: 660
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 94):
Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 91):
Please Aminobwana, is this really the best you can come up with?


What part of his comments are you trying to contend? Otherwise it looks like you are engaged in a petty personal attack.

Nope Big grin

The source he came up with, was very vague, if you ask me, and you did  Wink

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 91):
Please Aminobwana, is this really the best you can come up with?

The are surly many other, but this comes directly from the horses mouth. See Topic "Qatar Airways Frustrated By Lack Of Airbus A350 XW" for a lot of more detail

aminobwana
 
Maersk737
Posts: 660
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:37 am

RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 96):
Quoting Maersk737 (Reply 91):
Please Aminobwana, is this really the best you can come up with?

The are surly many other, but this comes directly from the horses mouth. See Topic "Qatar Airways Frustrated By Lack Of Airbus A350 XW" for a lot of more detail

Ok, but can't find the horse who said: I want to help Airbus, and that is why I buy the these A-birds?

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2990
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:24 am

The A350 may well be a very good aircraft if they can finally agree on the final design. Though right now is is simply an aircraft on paper or an AutoCad file on one of Airbus engineer's laptop.

The 787 has already been built whereas the A350 is still working out the details of its design.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 8):
I suspect they are eyeing the A350-1000 as a possible replacement for the 747-400's that wont be replaced by the A380.

So this rules out a Qantas 747-8I order? A 747-8 would look nice in QF colors......Hmmm on second thought QF livery isn't that spectacular...
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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Stitch
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RE: Dixon: "A350 Now Is A Very, Very Good Aircraft"

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 92):
What I really dont get it this 787-10ER vs. 787-10 debate, what is the difference i know that the ER should have a higher MTOW/. Is Boeing trying to "put off" building a 787-10ER because it will kill off the 777 right?

Right now, Boeing cannot offer a 787 with an MTOW greater then 560,000lbs because that is all the undercarriage can support.

With the 787-9 having an MTOW of 540,000lbs, a longer 787-10 only has 20,000lbs of MTOW to play with, and part of that is going to be taken by the extra fuselage length, plus the seats and interior fittings, and the passengers themselves, plus their baggage. If the weight of all that exceeds 20,000lbs, then the 787-10 has to unload fuel, which impacts range. Even if the whole thing comes right to 20,000lbs and a 787-10 can fly with the same fuel-load as a 787-9, it won't be able to fly as far because some of that fuel will be burned just getting the extra 20,000lbs into the air and moving along, especially since the engines will likely need a slight thrust-bump themselves.

And even then, MTOW won't actually be 560,000lbs - maximum taxi weight will be. So actual MTOW will be around 2000lbs less as the fuel needed to taxi into position and accelerate to V2 is burned off.

So Boeing is quoting a range for the 787-10 roughly equal to the 777-200ER and A340-300. That should be plenty good for most 772ER and A343 customers, but some - notably QF and EK - want even more to allow them to service twin-engine routes that currently require a 77L, but with something more efficient.

And that is going to require an MTOW greater than 560,000lbs for the 787-10 to perform and that is going to require some not-insignificant re-work.

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