bullpitt
Topic Author
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MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:56 pm

MAD is now the 4th largest airport in Europe and closing in on AMS. Do you guys thing we can be 3rd by the end of next year? Growth is over 13%.  cloudnine   praise 
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
jamincan
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:02 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't AMS the fourth largest after LHR, CDG and FRA? If that is the case, is MAD now the fifth largest in Europe, or has it already overtaken AMS?
 
bullpitt
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:12 pm

It has overtaken AMS and hopefully will soon overtake FRA. MAD 19.982.200 paps from Jan to May AMS 18.133.400 FRA 20.862.000
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
migair54
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:41 am

wonderful news for MAD,

With the new bases for Ryanair, Easyjet and Vueling MAD is going to grow really fast, IB opening some new routes and more to come.

after the new terminal 4 is operative there are lot of space to grow. last time i was there terminal 3 were almost empty. i dont understand why UX and JK didn't grow more.

some more data about MAD airport:

-Iberia (8.719.000), Spanair (t2.464.034), Air Europa (1.897.754), Air nostrum (712.419), Easyjet (684.357), Vueling (613.440), Ryanair (396.382), Air France (320.032).

-A320 (4.609.879), B737 (2069820), A321 (1.989.310), A319 (1.763.846), A343 (1.127.770).....................A346(754.893)................B763 (313.162), A332 (302.705).

-Spain (9.002.690), Italy (1.273.084), France (1.246.186), UK (t943.975), Germany (904.824), USA (541.980)........Argentina (401.544)..............Mexico(331.329).

-BCN (t2.088.442), PMI (686.093), AGP (616.154)................ Fiumicino (474.499), CDG (462.723), Heathrow (437.792), Orly (433.692)......EZE (401.544)..........MEX (192.891).



this info is from JAN to MAY.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:28 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but Madrid seems to be better designed airport for growth in terms of operation capacity than AMS, definetely FRA and LHR?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:53 pm

Hopefully MAD will get a DFW flight on either AA or IB soon to connect the OneWorld hubs
 
wdleiser
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:19 pm

Is Madrid Slot restricted?

I believe Frankfurt will be able to grow a lot more if they can finally build a new terminal where former Rhein/Mein was on the opposite side of the airport.
 
Joost
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 4):
Correct me if I'm wrong but Madrid seems to be better designed airport for growth in terms of operation capacity than AMS, definetely FRA and LHR?

MAD has just opened a new terminal set (T4 and T4s (satellite)), to allow major growth; IIRC T4 and T4s can handle up to 40MPA (can anyone confirm), about the same as T1, 2 and 3 together. So the airport capacity has basically doubled. They have also added 2 new runways, so they now have 4 and can handle 120 simultanious movements per hour. Therefore, they now can easily grow beyond AMS and FRA.

AMS is mostly politically limited. There are plans for a second terminal for 25-30MPA; the current terminal buidling can be expanded a bit more for over 50 MPA. AMS has a limited number of slots available, altough there are quite some left, especially as the government decided to increase the allowed number of flights by 20%, which is a very good increase. The declared capacity will IIRC be around 650.000 movements for 2008, whereas it's currently limited to IIRC 525.000 (which are not all used yet, but will likely be reached around 2008, 2009).

FRA is also politically limited and, when capacity would be not a bottleneck anymore, the airport will be able to grow very fast; there is so much demand that just cannot be catered currently. The same, of course, goes for LHR.
 
PanHAM
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:35 pm

One of the Fraport board members said in a recent speech that MAD and AMS will overtake FRA soon, so it is really no surprise.

Both MAD and AMS have far more capacity and since MAD has a lot of domestic traffic it is rather logic that they will move up to the # 3 position in Europe. It remains to be seen what impact the HSR lines to BCN and other centres will have on the overall figures.

FRA will grow once again after the 4th runway is opened.There are some political qurastion marks over that, for instance the state elections in January 08. Should the Socialist candidate win, we might as well bury all future plans for FRA. Fact is, all the growth that would normally take place in FRA is shifted to Munich right now. Cargo growth will shift to Leipzig.

FRA is the bad example, where NIMBYs combined with a reluctant and inefficient political leadership and laws that are against the peoples interests spoils the future potential of a market.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
paneuropean
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:50 pm

Congratulations Barajas !!....... We have expecting it for a while, that sooner or later MAD would take over AMS, still the year is not over yet, however with an average growth of 13% up till now, they are definitely going to beat us....

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 3):
-Iberia (8.719.000), Spanair (t2.464.034), Air Europa (1.897.754), Air nostrum (712.419), Easyjet (684.357), Vueling (613.440), Ryanair (396.382), Air France (320.032).

-A320 (4.609.879), B737 (2069820), A321 (1.989.310), A319 (1.763.846), A343 (1.127.770).....................A346(754.893)................B763 (313.162), A332 (302.705).

-Spain (9.002.690), Italy (1.273.084), France (1.246.186), UK (t943.975), Germany (904.824), USA (541.980)........Argentina (401.544)..............Mexico(331.329).

-BCN (t2.088.442), PMI (686.093), AGP (616.154)................ Fiumicino (474.499), CDG (462.723), Heathrow (437.792), Orly (433.692)......EZE (401.544)..........MEX (192.891).

These figures do show us that growth at MAD is mostly due to LCC. Domestic travel is also a very large part of pax numbers. Of course the Netherlands is so small, there hardly is any domestic demand.

Besides Holland will probably move most charter and LCC flights to Eindhoven, Rotterdam and the the future airport Lelystad. This also counts for the flights at Hahn in the Frankfurt area. Eventually it does show that transfer traffic at AMS is much more important at AMS and FRA as it is at MAD, except for flights from Latin America. I wonder how long this growth at MAD will continue ?

Hopefully this new Dutch government will give Schiphol some more room for growth. But for now Barajas is quite a success story......


 Wink
 
F27Friendship
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:40 pm

good thing to hear that in Spain they don't mind complaints too much and keep on growing!

Here we have 5 runways, only to be able to spread the "noise pollution". Imagine how much flights we could take in theory, when you realize heathrow only has 2 runways
 
HT
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:44 pm

Congrats, MAD !   

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 9):
Besides Holland will probably move most charter and LCC flights to Eindhoven, Rotterdam and the the future airport Lelystad.

I doubt that RTM and EIN will grow in terms of flights and pax considerably in the near future. Aren't these two airports "blessed" with even heavier political constraints than AMS ?

LEY, as present, is very far from being able to host a single charter or LCC flight.The necessary infrastructier ismply isn't there: the current runway at 4000 ft / 1200m is way too short, apron space is limited, there is no terminal to speak of. It is simply a GA airport at present.

Apart from the location offering some space to build a airport from scratch, almost every single bit of infrastructure needs to be built from scratch. This includes IMO also a rail link rconnecting to the present rail line from Almere to Lelystad (the city) and also I foresee that motorway A6 (from Amsterdam / Wesp / Muiden) would need to be upgraded to 6 lanes as the current 4 lanes (2+2) even today are hardly able to cope with traffic at times. This upgrade to 6 lanes definitely would be needed between the junction of A27 and exit Lelystad (along with a cloverleaf interchange at Lelystad).

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 6):
I believe Frankfurt will be able to grow a lot more if they can finally build a new terminal where former Rhein/Mein was on the opposite side of the airport.

Like PanHam said, FRA currently is suffering from a serious lack in runway capacity, especially for landings rather than for take-offs. Reason is that parallel runways 07/25 are too close to eachother and runway 18 is available only for take-offs. Runway 26L listed in some charts actualy is runway 25L with a displaced threshold in order to fly staggered parallel aproaches while trying to minimize the negative effects of wake turbulances from the other a/c.

While the present terminals are making good use of its capacity, additional terminal capacity can be added much easier than building a new runway. T1 is foreseen to get a new pier. A new terminal complex is planned to be built in the position of the former USAF-complex to the south of the field.

Overall, at present FRA looks like the looser when being compared to MAD, AMS and CDG.
LHR is too special to be a included in this comparison.
-HT

EDIT::

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):
Here we have 5 runways, only to be able to spread the "noise pollution". Imagine how much flights we could take in theory, when you realize heathrow only has 2 runways

And a 6th runway is planned for AMS ...

[Edited 2007-07-15 11:46:56]
EDIT-2: Stupid me: AMS already officially has 6 runways. The new one planned (in parallel to the Kaagbaan) would become #7, unless another one gets closed.

[Edited 2007-07-15 11:49:18]
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
rootsair
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
MAD has just opened a new terminal set (T4 and T4s (satellite)), to allow major growth; IIRC T4 and T4s can handle up to 40MPA (can anyone confirm), about the same as T1, 2 and 3 together. So the airport capacity has basically doubled. They have also added 2 new runways, so they now have 4 and can handle 120 simultanious movements per hour. Therefore, they now can easily grow beyond AMS and FRA.

yup and the airport is made to handle up to about 70 mio PAX a year

Great news for Barajas



[Edited 2007-07-15 11:49:59]
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Joost
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 9):
Besides Holland will probably move most charter and LCC flights to Eindhoven, Rotterdam and the the future airport Lelystad.



Quoting HT (Reply 11):

I doubt that RTM and EIN will grow in terms of flights and pax considerably in the near future. Aren't these two airports "blessed" with even heavier political constraints than AMS ?

Indeed. RTM is locked since 2004, and it's not likely at all that it will get any growth in the forseeable future. The airport is just too much into densely populated area.

I expect EIN to see some growth. This year, resposability for all airports except AMS and LEY will be transferred from national to regional governments. The city of Eindhoven and the province of North Brabant want the airport, and are very actively communicating with the surrounding population to enable growth. However, it will not be a second Schiphol and not even as big as HHN will be in the next 20 years.

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 9):
Hopefully this new Dutch government will give Schiphol some more room for growth.

They have already given the extra 100.000 something slots!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):

Here we have 5 runways, only to be able to spread the "noise pollution". Imagine how much flights we could take in theory, when you realize heathrow only has 2 runways



Quoting HT (Reply 11):
And a 6th runway is planned for AMS ...

Next to noise spreading, winds tend to vary more at AMS than at LHR. Changes in the ATC regulations in order to enable simultanuous operations from the Polderbaan and Zwanenburgbaan will help too.

Quoting HT (Reply 11):
LEY, as present, is very far from being able to host a single charter or LCC flight.The necessary infrastructier ismply isn't there: the current runway at 4000 ft / 1200m is way too short, apron space is limited, there is no terminal to speak of. It is simply a GA airport at present.

Of course. But the political process to expand the airport is going pretty fast, especially for the Dutch means. (environmental impact reports, different governments with shared responsabilities, etc; for what I can see pretty comparable to Germany). The national government really backs to project, regional governments are quite convinced, the money is all there, the drawings are all there. The assignment for spatial usage has been adapted to allow a larger airport. The current minister for Transport Eurlings is supporting the project. Okay, it should have been ready in 2008 (it won't be), and currently talks are 2012, and it will get delayed another 2 or 3 years, but I really expect it to be there in 2014.

The new terminal will be built here: http://www.schiphol.nl/_lelystad/por...20&bmUID=1184467311971&bmLocale=nl

Quoting HT (Reply 11):
Apart from the location offering some space to build a airport from scratch, almost every single bit of infrastructure needs to be built from scratch. This includes IMO also a rail link rconnecting to the present rail line from Almere to Lelystad (the city)

For the coming 10 years, the airport will not get a dedicated rail station. However, there are quite advanced plans for a new railway station Lelystad South at the junction of the railway and the N302, and a bus shuttle, possibly on a dedicated bus track, right to the airport. Equiped with a traffic light priority system, it's realistic to drive it in 10 minutes.

Go to http://maps.google.nl and find the route from larserdreef to luchthaven lelystad for an impression.

Quoting HT (Reply 11):
and also I foresee that motorway A6 (from Amsterdam / Wesp / Muiden) would need to be upgraded to 6 lanes as the current 4 lanes (2+2) even today are hardly able to cope with traffic at times.

They already need it now, Lelystad airport or not  Smile They actually need another link A6-A9 but this is a very sensitive political subject as we speak.

The roads to the other side of the country (N302 to Harderwijk, connecting to the A28, have been upgraded in the last 3 years and offer ample capacity, only slightly limited by the road that goes through Harderwijk.
 
dellatorre
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 2):
It has overtaken AMS and hopefully will soon overtake FRA. MAD 19.982.200 paps from Jan to May AMS 18.133.400 FRA 20.862.000

If you don't mind me asking, what is the source for those numbers???
 
bullpitt
Topic Author
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:01 pm

Hi Dellatorre

El Pais, One of Spain daily news papers Yesterday. I don't have it here with me to quote their originall source.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
767-332ER
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Thread starter):
MAD is now the 4th largest airport in Europe and closing in on AMS. Do you guys thing we can be 3rd by the end of next year? Growth is over 13%

As a frequent user of the airport (and hence someone whom has contributed to MAD's increasing passenger counts), I have some issues that I would like to bring up to the table:

-We cannot (and shouldn't) go on figures that is based on 5 months worth of data. The media sources are usually ones to jump on these types of stories, without any regard to industry trends (seasonal), which could impact the flows of traffic. For my local airport (ATL), which has been the world's busiest passenger airport since 1998, we have seen press released by Chicago media sources quoting these sort of things in the past. Once particular example was in 2006, when by June, ORD had "overtaken" ATL in aircraft operations. By the end of the year, ATL had overpassed ORD and claimed the title once again. As MAD currently stands, they only have around 1.8 million more than AMS in the first 5 months of the year; this is a margin of difference that could be overtaken in just once of the summer months.

-MAD's traffic, as it has been pointed out, is mainly domestic (when compared to AMS and FRA). For the northern hemisphere, the summer travel months (May, June, July, Aug) are the heavy months for international travel and we all know that this means the overwhelming usage of hub-and-spoke airlines. IB is a hub-and-spoke airline, however, their network is not as vast as LH and KL. This could have some interesting outcomes in influencing the year-end numbers.

-MAD does have a strong O&D market and Spain pulls from a large Destination market in the summer (sunseekers, beachgoers, etc...etc...), and most of this traffic has to go through MAD (and to a limited extent BCN).

-Tying into my afformentioned point, Openskies with the U.S. could have a negative impact to MAD, as the U.S. carriers in particular will probably choose to open up new, direct routes to destinations such as VLC, SVQ, AGP, all of which current U.S. travelers from/to Spain have to fly via MAD.

In the end, I would not be surprised if MAD continued the heavier traffic figures to overtake AMS, but there are numerous factors that could certainly influence the year-end figures. MAD still has numerous efficiency issues to work out and as long as there is an option to get non-stop to my final destination, and avoid MAD, I will choose to do so.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
lijnden
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:32 pm

Amsterdam and Frankfurt are limited by political will and very high in taxes and fees for both passengers and airliners. Some of these restrictions are also created in Brussels to favour the billions spend in high-speed trains to limit air traffic within a 500 km radius. As far as limits, both AMS and FRA still have room for more flights if they become like MAD a 24 hours airport and open up to more cargo flights.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAD-ORF
 
migair54
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:09 pm

hi Dellatorre

hi Bullpitt

El Pais is the source but also you can check in Aena web page. Aena is the authority in Spanish airports and air navigation.

MAD&c=Page&MO=0〈=EN_GB" target=_blank>http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?ci...eName=MAD&c=Page&MO=0〈=EN_GB

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 4):
Correct me if I'm wrong but Madrid seems to be better designed airport for growth in terms of operation capacity than AMS, definetely FRA and LHR?

of course it is. in MAD there are lot of space to grow.
check in the photo that between the runways 15/33 you can build new terminals. and with this 4 runways there is no limit about movement. one month ago i went to the Ministerio de Fomento and i saw a future model of MAD and there was a new terminal just by the new one, it was similar with a satellite between runways.

https://www.airliners.net/uf/536934626/middle/1184507973MeA9AO.jpg



Madrid "area" will have a new airport soon, Madrid Sur (Ciudad Real), is the first private international airport in Spain. it will start operation in 2007. they will offer a high speed train connexion with Madrid in 45 minutes and Cordoba 50 minutes.

this airport wants to attract cargo, charter service, some maintenance companies, long term parking area.
more info (http://www.donquijoteairport.com/english/index.htm)

IMO no one is going to move from MAD to there, really is pretty far from Madrid. Maybe some cargo operators but no passenger service.
 
bullpitt
Topic Author
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:41 pm

Hi 767-332ER

As far as I know the growth figures compare the same period from the year before so there is no doubt about the trend, another thing is will this hold all through the year. You, and most people will not transit if the opportunity is there, but this applies to all airports. The fact is MAD is the gateway to Europe from Latin America (Not the only one but a very important one). With regards to T4 I think it's a great airport, and one of the best in the world.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
paneuropean
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting HT (Reply 11):
LEY, as present, is very far from being able to host a single charter or LCC flight.The necessary infrastructier ismply isn't there: the current runway at 4000 ft / 1200m is way too short, apron space is limited, there is no terminal to speak of. It is simply a GA airport at present

You seem to be informed very well, therefor I am surprised about this issue, as most of us (Dutch a.netters) know that LEY has very big plans to enlarge the runway and build a totally new terminal (4 mill. pax).
There is a link on www.schiphol.com that tells you all about LEY's plans...

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 18):
of course it is. in MAD there are lot of space to grow.
check in the photo that between the runways 15/33 you can build new terminals. and with this 4 runways there is no limit about movement. one month ago i went to the Ministerio de Fomento and i saw a future model of MAD and there was a new terminal just by the new one, it was similar with a satellite between runways.

I transferred through MAD once on my way to LIM in 2001. I wasn't impressed by the old terminal. Is it going to be demolished?.

The photo's I have seen of T4 show a much larger and better terminal. IMHO I don't really like the colours of the interior, however this is just personal an I probably have to see it.....At least it was a good architect
 
Joost
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 20):
and build a totally new terminal (4 mill. pax).

Initially 2 mpax. The Planologische Kernbeslissing (spatial designation) allows for 4 mpax, though.
 
migair54
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 20):
I wasn't impressed by the old terminal. Is it going to be demolished?.

No, It is having improvements works, this terminal is very very old and needs a really big improvement.
 
HT
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:20 am

Okay, going slightly off-topic here, but LEY is a foreseen supplement to AMS.
Or should this be continued in a new thread ?

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
The new terminal will be built here: http://www.schiphol.nl/_lelystad/por...le=nl

Thanks for the link.
In there it is stated that the existing runway shall be extended to 2100 meters but the width is supposed to stay at 30m (100ft).
Is that wide enough, especially when factoring in that the runway's northeast to southwest orientation at times will be subject to sidewinds from up to 90 degrees (wind frequently blowing from West to Northwest at considerable strength) ?
Even though it would have meant to build a completely new runway, one in orientation 27 would be more flexible to use with the prevailing winds. However, such an orientation would result in a/c flying over Lelystad and that, of course, surely would be even heavier opposed by the people affected.

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
The roads to the other side of the country (N302 to Harderwijk, connecting to the A28, have been upgraded in the last 3 years and offer ample capacity, only slightly limited by the road that goes through Harderwijk.

Copy that. Driving through Harderwijk in the afternoon can result in light traffic files.
I frequently used A6 and N302 as an alternative route to the east (to Germany) when there was still construction going on past Muiderport on the A1. Even though it isn't a faster ride (and also a longer one) I prefer to drive rather than "enjoying" stop-and-go on the motorway. On one occasion a colleague of mine used the A1 all the way from Weesp while I drove via A6 and N302 and I actually saw him passing when I re-joined the A1 at Kootwijk (afrit 18).

Quoting Joost (Reply 21):
Quoting Paneuropean (Reply 20):and build a totally new terminal (4 mill. pax).
Initially 2 mpax.

What would be the total investment to bring LEY to a status to handle 2 million pax ?
Would it be worth the investment ?
LCC's tend to pay rather low landing charges etc., thus meaning that any investment probably will need a long time to repay (unless the investment made is of strategical use ...).

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
For the coming 10 years, the airport will not get a dedicated rail station. However, there are quite advanced plans for a new railway station Lelystad South at the junction of the railway and the N302, and a bus shuttle, possibly on a dedicated bus track, right to the airport. Equiped with a traffic light priority system, it's realistic to drive it in 10 minutes.

Indeed, it would not make too much sense to invest in a rail line for max. 2 mio pax a year.
The bus link you mentioned should work quite well. Plus, NS xould continue to run all their trains into Lelystad (downtown) rather than having to split ops between downtown and the airport ...

Quoting Joost (Reply 13):
This year, resposability for all airports except AMS and LEY will be transferred from national to regional governments.

Could this move also see some flights being operated out of ENS which, to my taste, is heavily underestimated.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 16):
Openskies with the U.S. could have a negative impact to MAD, as the U.S. carriers in particular will probably choose to open up new, direct routes to destinations such as VLC, SVQ, AGP, all of which current U.S. travelers from/to Spain have to fly via MAD.

These destinations have no premium market at all, so it might be an option for charter airlines or seasonal services but I highly doubt a year round service by a legacy carrier could be established.

Let's take the example of BCN where neither DL, CO, US have been able to substain a daily flight year round.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
bullpitt
Topic Author
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:04 pm

Hi all

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 24):
Let's take the example of BCN where neither DL, CO, US have been able to substain a daily flight year round

This statement (witch is very true) along with the one made by 767-332ER

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 16):
Openskies with the U.S. could have a negative impact to MAD, as the U.S. carriers in particular will probably choose to open up new, direct routes to destinations such as VLC, SVQ, AGP

shows how those outside of Spain ignore fundamental facts of the real situation within Spain.

What I mean is that outside of Spain BCN is a city that sell itself very well but the fact is, that MAD is more important Financially, Industrially and Politically and the numbers are there. To all other Spanish cities it will be very difficult to maintain direct services, In fact I doubt very much any company will establish direct services to any city apart from MAD and BCN and even BCN has difficulties maintaining an all year round direct service.

My  twocents 
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Joost
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 25):
To all other Spanish cities it will be very difficult to maintain direct services

Similar to many other European countries: there is a large amount leisure/VFR/2nd house Intra-European traffic to many secondary destinations, but intercontinental traffic is a whole different story.

Look at France, for example. There are quite some links from many non-Paris airports to other European airports, most notably the UK, but also Germany, The Netherlands, etc. However, intercontinental traffic is all to Paris, except for the DL flight to JFK. Attempts for intercontinental traffic from LYS failed. Italy, roughly the same story. Intercontinental flights are mainly on FCO and MXP, although DL has a presence in PSA and VCE. US only flies seasonal to VCE, EuroFly is low-frequency.

For Spain, I'd not be too surprised to see some low-frequency or seasonal services to other cities, but no more than that. The British/Germans/Dutch/Scandinavians fly to AGP for the sun, but the Americans have Florida for that.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 18):
Madrid "area" will have a new airport soon, Madrid Sur (Ciudad Real), is the first private international airport in Spain. it will start operation in 2007. they will offer a high speed train connexion with Madrid in 45 minutes and Cordoba 50 minutes



Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 18):
IMO no one is going to move from MAD to there, really is pretty far from Madrid. Maybe some cargo operators but no passenger service.

Don't you think some LCC's can move their MAD op's to Ciudad Real looking for cheapier fees? Considering some LCC's are marketing REU or GRO as Barcelona, they might do the same on MAD. Less than an hour on a train is not that much, a lot of cities have airports far beyond that.
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bullpitt
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:56 pm

Hi UPPERDECKFAN

One thing is what they say and another is reality, yes in theory ther airport is less than one hour on a AVE but if you take into consideration how many trains will be stoping at the airport and what are the chances you will get a train close to your arrival time?. On top of that you (the passenger) will have to pay for that train so in the end, will they be able to offer cheaper fares that those companies operating to MAD once you add the train fare to your flight?.

IMHO I don't think this airport has much of a future, but as I always say time puts everthing in it's own place.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
enginebird
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:34 pm

Congratulations MAD.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
FRA is the bad example, where NIMBYs combined with a reluctant and inefficient political leadership and laws that are against the peoples interests spoils the future potential of a market.

Whose people's interests? It depends on the people you are talking about. I live/work 30km east of FRA and have to endure the noise of approaching aircraft every 60-90 seconds on about 75% of the days of the year, i.e. as I speak now. Politics has to take all people's interests into account and a rapidly growing multi-runway 24 hour airport is not necessarily in the best interest of the huge number of people living in the vicinity of FRA. Why shouldn't people from MUC, HAM and Berlin not fly to their destination from their home airport but via FRA?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Should the Socialist candidate win

There is no "socialist" candidate. If anything there is a "social democratic" candidate who has, by the way, not chance of winning the election.

Quoting Joost (Reply 7):
all the growth that would normally take place in FRA is shifted to Munich right now. Cargo growth will shift to Leipzig.

Munich is a "boomtown", Bavaria is an economically extremely strong region, so there is nothing wrong with growth there, it's not all due to growth restrictions in FRA.

And, it makes a lot of sense to not overburden FRA with cargo flights but shift some major cargo operations to the grossly underused Leipzig airport. A truckload of taxpayer money (mostly "Solidaritaetszuschlag") was spent there and and is not being used as much as one would like. Why would the cargo have to go through FRA?
 
PanHAM
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 29):
Whose people's interests? It depends on the people you are talking about. I live/work 30km east of FRA and have to endure the noise of approaching aircraft every 60-90 seconds on about 75% of the days of the year, i.e. as I speak now. Politics has to take all people's interests into account and a rapidly growing multi-runway 24 hour airport is not necessarily in the best interest of the huge number of people living in the vicinity of FRA. Why shouldn't people from MUC, HAM and Berlin not fly to their destination from their home airport but via FRA?

I am frequently enough in the Gelnhausen area to know that you don't get the full amount of inbound traffic even when 25R/L are in use since a lot of the traffic coming in from the west turns to the 10 nm final over Hanau. The traffic you have is about 1500m / 5000 ft. high, oif you would live in Neu Isenburg or Raunheim you might have a reason to comlpain. Aviation and related industries are by far the biggest source of employment in the Rhein/Main area. Poltics are about to put that at risk because they seem to be unable to increase the amount of slots available.

High employment rates are in everybody's interest, also for people whose jobs are not related to airline business. Further stay woith the facts, FRA is not 24hrs now and with the extension, there will be a few movements between 11pm and 5 am only, those flights which are delayed and about 10 cargo movements which cannot be placed into another time frame. That's hardly anything to anny anybody, especially since these flights will be with aircraft producing far less noise than what is on the market today - i.e. T7F or 747-8F vs MD11. Street traffic is more annoying than that.

With your interest in an airline community netweork, you should know that FRA is w world hub and not only for people flying from HAM or MUC via FRA to their destination, but for people from all over the world to all over the world. Exactly that business ,model is what piuts tons of money into the region every day.

The new runway for landings only will not only improve the number of slots available and provide badly needed capacity, it will also spread the noise more evenly. You might even get less landing noise once the new runway is build. BZW, I live under a departure rtoute and get 747s about 1000 - 1200 meters above my house. No complaints. It is usually maximal 90 mins in a row.

.

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 29):

There is no "socialist" candidate. If anything there is a "social democratic"

with her it's no differnce

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 29):
ho has, by the way, not chance of winning the election.

I keep my fingers crossed for that.

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 29):
Munich is a "boomtown", Bavaria is an economically extremely strong region, so there is nothing wrong with growth there, it's not all due to growth restrictions in FRA.

Southern Hesse is an extremely strong economical region as well. The north is leveling the average for the state's figures. MUC airport has added to the attractiveness of the Munich region tremendously. One good thing about the delay in getting runway# 4 at FRA is that this has boosted MUC because LH needs the capacity there. They have shifted their original plans only a couple of years ago, initially MUC was not intended to become an intercont hub as well. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:46 pm

Hi speed train (AVE) to Barcelona and Valencia will hurt domestic traffic from/to MAD, but in the long run I think MAD will keep growing but at a smaller rate than these days. Long haul should increase as Madrid becomes more and more a big city politically and financially.

Of course the comparison with Frakfurt, London and Paris is not 100% fair since all these cities have multiple airports.

One of the things that catches my attention is how there is no curfew at MAD when all the major european airports have it? There are several scheduled flights to/from MAD between 2300 and 0500.
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enginebird
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
you don't get the full amount of inbound traffic even when 25R/L are in use since a lot of the traffic coming in from the west turns to the 10 nm final over Hanau.

Well, at busy/most times of the day (e.g. yesterday evening, this morning etc.) we get a continuous stream of planes and certainly don't need more than we already have. Check STANLEY-track and you will see that *all* planes currently arriving go over Gelnhausen and Langenselbold (3000-6000ft).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
Further stay woith the facts, FRA is not 24hrs now

I didn't say it is 24hrs now, but somebody else in the thread suggested that 24hr operation would be one way to increase capacity. I usually wake up around 5:00 from the first widebodies arriving from America and elsewhere. We should not place a busy night operation in the middle of a very densely populated area.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
With your interest in an airline community netweork, you should know that FRA is w world hub and not only for people flying from HAM or MUC via FRA to their destination, but for people from all over the world to all over the world.

I am well aware of that. But your posting sounded like we need FRA to grow faster at the expense of the other major airports in Germany. There is nothing wrong with a slower growth at FRA, especially as long as we develop other airports around the country to give the majority of the population convenient access to air traffic as opposed to forcing them to travel to FRA first.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
Quoting Enginebird (Reply 29):

There is no "socialist" candidate. If anything there is a "social democratic"

with her it's no differnce

Well, this is an English based forum and for many people here, especially Americans, "socialist" is a very powerful insult. I am no big fan of her either, but "socialist" just isn't what she is.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
initially MUC was not intended to become an intercont hub as well. .

MUC has a huge number of people living around the airport, i.e. as a temporary Hesse with southern roots I see it as a blessing rather than a curse that LH shifted some international operation to MUC. -- What we really need now is another major airport in the north.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):

High employment rates are in everybody's interest

With the oil prices constantly increasing (with no end in sight) and international terrorism growing, I do, by the way, not believe the aviation industry to be the most important force on the job market of the 21st century. And even now, the economic impact of aviation on the Rhine-Main-region are frequently blown totally out of proportion.
 
PanHAM
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 32):

I am well aware of that. But your posting sounded like we need FRA to grow faster at the expense of the other major airports in Germany. There is nothing wrong with a slower growth at FRA, especially as long as we develop other airports around the country to give the majority of the population convenient access to air traffic as opposed to forcing them to travel to FRA first.

There is only one potential secondary hub poutside FRA/MUC and that is DUS. With the growth of Air Berlin, LH may eventually base 3 A330s there from 2008. Check focus online, there is an article about it. Neither HAM nor BER can sustain long distance flights other than the spoke to hub flights offered by CO and DL. Economics of scale simply dicate to concentrate on few central locaqtions.
.

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 32):
I am no big fan of her either, but "socialist" just isn't what she is.

That's a matter of opinion., I say she is. In any case, she's be bad for the further development of FRA

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 32):

MUC has a huge number of people living around the airport, i.e. as a temporary Hesse with southern roots I see it as a blessing rather than a curse that LH shifted some international operation to MU

The population base of the metro areas is about the same. Based on the catchment area, the natural primary hub must be DUS. That was ruled out in the 60s because of the population density. That shows how politics screw up business, happens all the time. We would not need the 4th runway at FRA now if they had not made that stupid compromise in the late 70s to build a runway 18 instead of making it 25 L/C/R .

.

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 32):

With the oil prices constantly increasing (with no end in sight) and international terrorism growing, I do, by the way, not believe the aviation industry to be the most important force on the job market of the 21st century. And even now, the economic impact of aviation on the Rhine-Main-region are frequently blown totally out of proportion.

I don't take such a negative point of view. More,many businesses outside aviation locate in the FRA metro region because of the airport.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Elagabal
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:58 pm

Is it just me, or isn't there some kind of poetic justice in taking (virtually) all of Flevoland and paving it over?  Wink
LPL-Lelystad international: I can't wait!!
 
ualcsr
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:29 pm

I've heard some rumours from a couple of friends at UA that MAD will be the next "Capital to Capital" destination. I know UA flew there back in the early 90s but don't know why the route was discontinued. Was it just poor yields?
 
sandrozrh
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:52 pm

Impressive growth. Not too long ago, MAD was still smaller than ZRH

On a sidenote, does anybody have/know of a list of which airlines use which terminals at MAD? The official website isn't of much help.

Edit: nevermind, found one  Smile

[Edited 2007-07-16 16:53:53]
 
flysherwood
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 6):
former Rhein/Mein was on the opposite side of the airport.

Have they closed Rhein/Mein Airbase?
 
PanHAM
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 37):
Have they closed Rhein/Mein Airbase?

errhhh- yes. In 2005 that was! Officially Dec 31,2005 but the last C-17 lifted off October 2005 - check the database here, there are pictures on file. There have been a few occasional diversions from Ramstein, but nothing much any more.

Not only is the AB closed, almost all the buildings are gone, demolished to make room for the future T3.

Over 50 years of history vansihed like the haze.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 35):
I've heard some rumours from a couple of friends at UA that MAD will be the next "Capital to Capital" destination

If it happens it'll very bad timing on UA.........IB just started 5xweekly MAD-IAD last month
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incitatus
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:41 am

In ten years my guess is that CDG will be number one in passenger traffic in Europe. LHR will be second. MAD will be third. FRA will be fourth and AMS will be fifth.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
migair54
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 36):
On a sidenote, does anybody have/know of a list of which airlines use which terminals at MAD? The official website isn't of much help.

T-4 is for Iberia and one world members, also Vueling, iberworld.

T1 is for non UE flights, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeromexico......

T2 and T3 are for Air Europa and Air Comet(except intercontinental flights), Easyjet, Ryanair, and all Skyteam and Star Alliance.

i hope it helps.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
In ten years my guess is that CDG will be number one in passenger traffic in Europe. LHR will be second. MAD will be third. FRA will be fourth and AMS will be fifth.

well, With the new terminal T-5 in LHR and 2012 olimpics, for me LHR will be the king of Europe for long. CDG second. and MAD is the third, FRA and AMS.
 
HT
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
In ten years my guess is that CDG will be number one in passenger traffic in Europe.

Making an extrapolation from the current ops at CDG and the waiting queues before take-off, I have my doubts that CDG will be able to add considerable numbers of flights to their exisiting runway system (at least if they maintain their current way of operation).
Any plans for an additional runway at CDG ?
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
PanHAM
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:55 am

Which rank FRA will have in 10 years depends on the 4th runway. If that is build, there will be 40 additoonal slots per hour which will be taken up very fast, starting with the peak times.

With 4 runways, FRA will be in the top 3, simply because of it's by far more powerful hub carrier. The present Terminal layout easily handles the 55 Million, T1 will be extended and at T2 construction to connect with the C section of T1 is under way. Plus T3 giving additional capacity of about 25 Million, the infrastructure could handle up to 100 Million pax p.a. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
r2rho
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:56 am

T4 at MAD is excellent and world-class, but the old terminals simply can't be helped, refurbishing or not. The best thing to do would be to demolish and rebuild them, but I guess that's a bit too costly to do right now that they've recently undergone an expansion, and there are other airports that may need the money more right now. A good idea would be to keep them in service until another satellite terminal is built sometime in the future to replace them. In any case, with T1,2,3 operating well below their capacity right now, flying through them isn't as bad as it used to be. In fact it's quite alright.
 
ualcsr
Posts: 381
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 39):
If it happens it'll very bad timing on UA.........IB just started 5xweekly MAD-IAD last month

Respectfully disagree. I think it would be excellent timing. While IB has the obvious advantage from MAD, UA has a huge following in NoVA and DC. What's wrong with a little competition?
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1040
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 45):
Respectfully disagree. I think it would be excellent timing. While IB has the obvious advantage from MAD, UA has a huge following in NoVA and DC. What's wrong with a little competition?

Also respectfully, I agree that competition is great since it can result in better fares and better service but I have to disagree on your statement that it would be "excellent timing".

How being a step behind competitors can be called "excellent"?
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
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SailorOrion
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:44 pm

MAD will pass AMS this year, and FRA no later than 2009.
T4 is truly a great place, but T1-3 could really need a complete rebuild, but maybe they'll get it eventually.

The biggest question for me is how MAD is going to cope with the ATC problems? The Madrid sector is a major contributor to delays all over Europe.

Data (total delay in minutes):

Full Year 2006:
1. Madrid (LECM): 1.6 million (that's 10% of ALL European delays, or 3 minutes of delay per minute.)
2. Paris (LFFF): 1.5 million
3. London (EGTT): 1.1 million
....
9. Frankfurt (EDFF): 692.000
...
12. Munich (EDMM): 590.000

April 2007:
1. Madrid (LECM): 172 000 (that's 15% of all delays)
...
18. London (EGTT): 18 194
...
20. Langen (EDFF, ex Frankfurt): 14 178
...
25. Munich (EDMM): 7991

May 2007 data isn't looking any better ...

Where is the bottleneck in LECM anyway?

SailorOrion
 
migair54
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 27):
Don't you think some LCC's can move their MAD op's to Ciudad Real looking for cheapier fees? Considering some LCC's are marketing REU or GRO as Barcelona, they might do the same on MAD. Less than an hour on a train is not that much, a lot of cities have airports far beyond that.

Hi UPPERDECKFAN.

the problem with Madrid-Sur is that this airport is 220 KM from Madrid, (GRO-BCN =90) (REU-BCN=100), and 45 minutes is a high speed train, this train is very expensive, it doesn´t make sense save 40%u20AC in a flight if you have to pay later for the train, 220km by bus is more than two hours and inside Madrid traffic could be 3 easily.

T1 and maybe T2 are very old. and maybe they need to be demolished, but T3 is ok. it´s much better than the other 2.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
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RE: MAD To Overtake AMS And FRA Here We Come

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 48):
the problem with Madrid-Sur is that this airport is 220 KM from Madrid, (GRO-BCN =90) (REU-BCN=100), and 45 minutes is a high speed train, this train is very expensive, it doesn´t make sense save 40%u20AC in a flight if you have to pay later for the train, 220km by bus is more than two hours and inside Madrid traffic could be 3 easily.

I would not call it 'very expensive'. In general train travel is very cheap in Spain compared with other EU countries like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Scandinavia.

If Ryanair flies to Madrid Sur and it is marketed as Madrid people will fly there as they do to Hahn etc. And I think Ryanair passengers are now even used to pay more for the train into London than for the flight in itself. So why shouldn't that work in Madrid.
But I agree, if RENFE charges 100Euro or a 3 hour bus ride is offered it might not work. But if the train return ticket costs around 40Euro as Stansted express people will buy Ryanairs 20Euro tickets to Madrid without doubt.

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