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nickbbu
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Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:46 pm

I was checking the airlines that operate this route, and it seems that only DL, AA, UA, CO and AC offer direct flights between NYC and YMX / YUL. And even so, the prices are quite high, more than 300 $ rt.
For a flight from NYC to CHI you pay less than 200 $ rt, even if the distance is more than double of that between NYC and YMX, 740 miles compared to 335 miles.
A cheaper way would be to fly B6 from JFK to BTV, and then take the bus.

Why there is no LCC operating on this route? And what are the reasons behind these high prices?

Nick
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Cory6188
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
DL, AA, UA, CO and AC offer direct flights between NYC and YMX / YUL

To be entirely honest, 5 airlines flying a route doesn't seem that limited to me....I can think of plenty of other airports with significantly less service than that.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
Why there is no LCC operating on this route?

It is an international route, so there are additional expenses due to governments regulations (immigration, customs, authorities...) LCCs generally avoid situations with extra expenses (hence their designation as Low Cost Carriers).

$300 RT does not sound all that expensive for an international flight to me. Supply and demand. I'm sure that if all the airlines you mentioned were making huge profits on their NYC-YUL flights, then other airlines would have hopped into the market long ago.

Please remember that the USA and Canada are not a single aviation market like the EU.

If you want to take the bus from BTV, then by all means.

[Edited 2007-07-14 16:18:24]
 
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northstardc4m
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:20 pm

reason #1: taxes and fees... there are more for flights to this great white land (from both the US and Canada, fees for flights crossing the border are about 50% higher than domestic flights)... example AC fare:

Fare Summary
Passenger Type Adult
Flight 1 - Departing airfare (Tango Plus) 133.00
Flight 2 - Returning airfare (Tango Plus) 133.00
Navcan and Surcharges 15.00
Taxes, Fees and Charges
Canada Airport Improvement Fee 15.00
U.S.A Transportation Tax 31.64
U.S Agriculture Fee 5.24
Canada Security Charge 7.94
U.S Passenger Facility Charge 4.72
Canada Quebec Sales Tax (QST #1000-043-172) 1.19
Canada Goods and Services Tax (GST/HST #10009-2287) 18.24
September 11 Security Fee 2.62
U.S.A Immigration User Fee 7.34
Total airfare and taxes before options (per passenger) 374.93
Number Of Passengers 1
Grand Total - Canadian Dollars $374.93

Total Fare: $266CAD
Total Price: $374.93CAD
Difference: $108.93CAD on taxes and fees...

reason #2: demand types, much of the traffic NYC-YUL is business related, so airfares in the super cheap discounted classes don't occur as much as more leisure/VFR routes... especially in the summer time. Like it or not, Montrealers just don't seem to want to visit the US by air... alot of them drive: If you want to fly to Montreal cheap from NYC, fly to BTV and drive... thats about the only option.

Also, and this will get me flammed, Montreal just isn't that big of a market. Toronto is the major market in eastern Canada and you'll often find cheaper flights there. LCCs operating within Canada have a hard time working into Montreal: Westjet isn't really an LCC anymore and couldn't make YYZ-NYC work, much less YUL-NYC, CanJet couldn't make it work and pulled scheduled flights, JetsGo went bust... and so on. JetBlue, Southwest have both scoffed at the costs of flying to Canada, Frontier is making a go of it out west but thats a different market. PeoplExpress was about the only "LCC" to ever make an extended attempt of flying to Montreal from the NYC Area... and thats why CO flies that now.

$266CAD isn't bad... about $255USD right now. For a "legacy" carrier on a secondary route thats about the same as in the US.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
JRadier
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
For a flight from NYC to CHI

One flight is domestic, the other is international.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montrea

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
JetBlue, Southwest have both scoffed at the costs of flying to Canada,

I believe JetBlue has considered flying to Canada - unlike Southwest, they're very enthusiastic about international destinations. It's just that, as you point out, NYC-Montreal is just not that big of a market, and they can tap some of it using BTV.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
LCCs generally avoid situations with extra expenses (hence their designation as Low Cost Carriers).

Have to disagree - I don't think there's anything in the LCC concept that precludes cross-border flying. Many US non-network carriers happily fly internationally: JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit, and Sun Country all have significant cross-border activity, and only the lack of Open Skies with Mexico keeps them from adding to these quickly. Only Southwest has really seemed to explicitly reject cross-border flying, and recent hints have suggested that this may change in the near future.

It is true that there seems to be a reluctance to LCCs going to Canada, though. I think part of this is that Canada doesn't have as many "secondary" airports as the US, and what ones it does have don't have pre-clearance facilities, so there's fewer opportunities for LCCs that use the secondary-airports concept. Air Canada has emerged from restructuring as a very intense competitor, and WestJet has moved into the US market as well - a lot of the US-Canada market is seasonal, moving Canadians to and from the southern US in the winter, and the Canadian airlines have a natural marketing advantage there.

(I also wouldn't be surprised if JetBlue has a reluctance to go head-to-head with WestJet, since WestJet is a major customer for their LiveTV subsidiary.)
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 5):
I believe JetBlue has considered flying to Canada - unlike Southwest, they're very enthusiastic about international destinations. It's just that, as you point out, NYC-Montreal is just not that big of a market, and they can tap some of it using BTV.

LCC traditionalyl have not done well in transborder mkts.. Both J7 and PE flew to YMX/YUL but did poorly. WestJet and CanJet dropepd LGA and Canjet dropped MDW. I thin k the fees and taxes negate the cost savings a LCC can offer
 
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STT757
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
Why there is no LCC operating on this route?

LCC's would be competing against Cars and buses, most folks in the NYC area who vacation in Montreal drive. Montreal and Quebec is hugely popular year round tourist destination for NY/NJ residents, most drive. My wife and I last went to Montreal in 2002, the fares were all high so I went on Hotwire and got a real good deal on AA/Eagle from JFK. JFK is further for us in Central Jersey than EWR or LGA but it was much cheaper than flying from EWR or LGA.

Also one of the most scenic passenger train journeys in the US is Amtrak's Adirondack which travels between NY Penn Station and Montreal, this trip is especially scenic during Autumn.

Love Montreal.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
U.S Agriculture Fee 5.24

Whatever next:

Lord Mayor Annual Buffet Contribution: $2153,0000(0000000).
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jetbluefan1
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
Canada Airport Improvement Fee 15.00

Um I think that's sort of nuts. Toronto has the some of the highest landing fees in the world. Why don't the airports just fund their own projects?

JetBluefan1
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 1):
To be entirely honest, 5 airlines flying a route doesn't seem that limited to me....

Inasmuch as CO/DL and AC/UA operate in legalized collusion, in reality, the field of competitors is narrowed to 3 airlines. Even so, it would seem to be enough to make the market at least somewhat competitive, despite the lack of LCC competition.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 3):
reason #1: taxes and fees...

 checkmark  There are even more tax categories typically added to fares between the U.S. and Canada than on flights between the U.S. and Mexico. Nonetheless, the tax bite paid by pax on the former is generally somewhat less than the latter.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
$300 RT does not sound all that expensive for an international flight to me. Supply and demand.

Even without taking supply and demand into consideration, a very reasonable and realistic fare in the NYC-Montreal market. That some would consider it unduly high simply illustrates how totally irrational and corrupted airline pricing has become, which has created an unrealistic perception among the masses that anything higher than $99 each way is a ripoff.



Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 9):
Why don't the airports just fund their own projects?

What could be more equitable than for users (ie pax) to fund commercial airport projects through payment of reasonable Airport Improvement Fees (Canada) and Passenger Facility Charges (U.S.) and for the airlines to add their fair share through landing fees and gate leases etc?
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 10):
What could be more equitable than for users (ie pax) to fund commercial airport projects through payment of reasonable Airport Improvement Fees (Canada) and Passenger Facility Charges (U.S.) and for the airlines to add their fair share through landing fees and gate leases etc?

Passenger Facility Charges in the U.S. are either $3.00 or $4.50 depending on the airport. Isn't $15 sort of ridiculous?

JetBluefan1
 
UN_B732
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:08 pm

I can say that lots of people on jetBlue's NYC-Burlington flights are making the drive up to Canada, and to a limited extent, folks on Delta's flights.
That's how they catch the market.
-A
What now?
 
MrFord
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:10 pm

If you get lucky, most of the time, CO offer their wee-end specials on YUL and YQB from EWR.
Normally 106$ plus taxes, around US145$ total for an ERJ ride. It's a good deal for a week-end in Quebec, me and a lot of my coworkers here in NYC take those flights to go back there!

But for the rest of the time, it is more expensive. Keep in mind that fares originating from Canada are normally higher, especially now, and for a comparison, either the direct YQB-EWR on CO or the connecting one from AC run around 600-700$ pretty much all year... for an 8 hour drive, it must worth it hehe.
"For radar identification throw your jumpseat rider out the window."
 
IPFreely
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
And what are the reasons behind these high prices?

Supply and demand -- it's the height of tourist season in Montreal. I just flew DSM-YUL and YQB-DSM last week, with 3 weeks advance purchase, and the fare was $925. I've made the same trip for less than $300 in the winter in the past year.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
Passenger Facility Charges in the U.S. are either $3.00 or $4.50 depending on the airport. Isn't $15 sort of ridiculous?

Well in the US many airports receive money from the federal government whereas in Canada the federal government takes away money from the airports. The money to pay the Canadian government rent needs to come from somewhere.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:18 am

It's not just New York that has this problem. Here in Chicago, flights to Toronto routinely price out around $200-$250. Flights to Montreal are always $350-$400. Granted, we've got only two carriers on the ORD-YUL route, but I'm always left scratching my head and the huge price differential.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 15):
Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 11):
Passenger Facility Charges in the U.S. are either $3.00 or $4.50 depending on the airport. Isn't $15 sort of ridiculous?

Well in the US many airports receive money from the federal government whereas in Canada the federal government takes away money from the airports. The money to pay the Canadian government rent needs to come from somewhere.

US FAA regulations limit PFCs to a maximum of $4.50, and not more than 2 such charges per one way trip and 4 such charges per round trip (even if your trip involves more than 2 airports with PFCs in each direction). There are no such limits in Canada as far as I know. Current AIFs in Canada are listed below:
http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/common/flights/pop_surcharge.html

The Canada AIFs are not high compared to what you pay at many airports in Europe and in many other parts of the world. On many low fares within Europe, especially if you're connecting in each direction and using several airports, the total of all the fees/taxes is often more than the fare itself.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
The Canada AIFs are not high compared to what you pay at many airports in Europe and in many other parts of the world.

Mexico's equivalent of the AIF/PFC is the international departure tax, which is typically $20-25.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 15):
Well in the US many airports receive money from the federal government whereas in Canada the federal government takes away money from the airports. The money to pay the Canadian government rent needs to come from somewhere.

As for the "high" Canadian AIF fees, keep in mind that pax entering the U.S. from Canada pay, in addition to PFC tax(es), a total of $12.00 (US funds) in immigration taxes. There are no such separate/additional taxes added to airfares paid by pax entering Canada from the U.S. even though the first stop for all pax upon entering Canada from the U.S. is immigration and customs.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:07 am

My standard response: Damn those airlines for trying to cover their costs and make a profit. The nerve!
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:56 am

I recently drove to Burlington VT from Montreal and flew B6 to JFK.

I wouldn't bother doing so again in the future.

I ended up paying close to $300 U.S. roundtrip and wasted 5 hours driving and at the border lineup. If you add the cost of the gas and wear/tear on my car it probably cost me more than non-stop from YUL-JFK anyway. I managed to find free parking but I'm not sure that is always the case.

There's only a handful of flights to choose from to JFK from BTV via B6 as awell.

I felt scammed when all was said and done.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 20):
I felt scammed when all was said and done.

Scammed by whom? Sounds like nothing more than a case of failing to count the total costs of a choice you made for yourself. Is it possible to scam one's self? Wink Or, in other words, a case of "live and learn."

I myself have, at times, considered similar fly-drive options only to conclude that it generally costs less to bite the proverbial bullet and pay a higher fare to get from where I want to begin my trip to my actual destination.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montrea

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 20):
I felt scammed when all was said and done.

Does B6 advertise in Montreal. They don't actively market BTV as a gateway to Montreal on the website - the word "Montreal" doesn't appear at all on its route map, and a keyword search of the press release section back to 2003 only shows it showing up once - as a WestJet destination when WestJet announced they were contracting for LiveTV installation.

Interesting that it took you so long - Mapquest shows Montreal - BTV as a little under 2 hours.
How bad was the delay at the border?
Or is Mapquest just unrealistic?
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:39 pm

Renting a car in BTV, driving, crossing the border: I am not surprised it takes so long. Driving from NYC to YUL is 8 hours, if one respects the speed limits (very few do, I know). And the Amtrack service maybe offers stunning panoramas, but it is slow and uncomfortable (count 10 hours too). So I much prefer flying. I believe that if reasonable fares were offered to YUL, the air traffic would increase. Most of the flights are operated by regional jets, only AC has airbuses on most flights to LGA.

Thus I agree that this market is cornered by three airlines (AC with some airbuses and regional jets, CODL and AA with regional jets). When there is competition, return fares can be under $200, and airlines still make money, as seems to happen to YYZ, I am sure there is a case for a LCC link, since regular airlines are keeping the offer tight and the prices high.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 21):
I myself have, at times, considered similar fly-drive options only to conclude that it generally costs less to bite the proverbial bullet and pay a higher fare to get from where I want to begin my trip to my actual destination

You'll never be a Skybus customer then, I take it?  biggrin 
If they ever fly to BTV, I'd expect to see it listed as both "Montreal" and "Ottawa"

Seriously, I've heard many times about Montrealers driving to BTV to avoid high fares/taxes to US destinations, and thought it was a viable option. Of course, I thought the drive would take 2 hours, not 5. "Scammed" might not be the right word, but "disappointed" would be a fair analysis.
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:10 am

My drive was 2 hours plus about half an hour at customs each way for a total of 5 hours round trip.

Scammed was the wrong word, mislead would be better. The reason I say mislead is that there have been a number of articles in the YUL/Canadian media that suggest it is way cheaper to drive/fly to the states via a northern U.S. city as oppossed to flying non-stop from Canada to the U.S.

I now realize that these "press releases" were probably prompted by the Burlington chamber of commerce, JetBlue, Burlington airport administration officials etc. etc.

It was not cheaper. It took way longer than flying direct from YUL.

I drove to upstate NY last saturday morning. The U.S. customs checkpoint at Champlain took over an hour to traverse. Good luck to the new Plattsburgh international airport with long, unpredictable delays like that.

Long haul flights via BTV are no better because to go anywhere other than NYC you have to transfer at JFK. This exposes you to even more waiting and possible missed connections while the prices are often not as cheap as you may expect either.

Live and learn is right.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 24):
If they ever fly to BTV, I'd expect to see it listed as both "Montreal" and "Ottawa"

In all seriousness, how long until they announce IAG for Buffalo/Toronto/Rochester/Syracuse/Utica?  Wink
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
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exFATboy
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montrea

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 25):
My drive was 2 hours plus about half an hour at customs each way for a total of 5 hours round trip.

I actually thought you meant 5 hours one way. 5 hours round-trip shouldn't have been a surprise - Mapquest pegs downtown Montreal to BTV at just under 2 hours. The Burlington Airport website says 2 hours, and JetBlue does not market BTV as an alternative for Montreal, so I don't think it's fair to say that they were instigating this.

But over the years I have seen a couple of articles on CBC and CTV's websites mentioning Montrealers driving to BTV to try to save money, so I can see where that might have come from, especially in the gap between the AC-Canadian merger and the spread of WestJet to the East.

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 26):
In all seriousness, how long until they announce IAG for Buffalo/Toronto/Rochester/Syracuse/Utica?

Funny you should say that - just after I posted my Skybus quip, I was looking at a route map and remembering an article I read about IAG trying to attract scheduled service (here it is!), and the whole "how would Skybus market Niagara Falls" thought hit me, same as you. Heh.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:11 am

Well in the US many airports receive money from the federal government whereas in Canada the federal government takes away money from the airports. The money to pay the Canadian government rent needs to come from somewhere.

While the first point is true, money that comes into the airport in the form of Airport Improvement Fee revenue can only be used for capital projects. Rent is covered out of other forms of revenue, such as aeronautical revenue (landing fees) and non-aeronautical revenue (ie retail, concessions).
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:43 am

I can't imagine that many people wanting to go to Montreal from NYC to make 5 carriers worthwhile!  Wink
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Nickbbu (Thread starter):
For a flight from NYC to CHI you pay less than 200 $ rt,

You are not really trying to compare Montreal with Chicago are you?  Confused
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
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RE: Why So Few And Expensive Flights NYC - Montreal

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:00 am

I can't imagine that many people wanting to go to Montreal from NYC to make 5 carriers worthwhile!

Montreal and New York have a long standing historical business and social connections. While Montreal has been overtaken by Toronto as a business center, it still is Canada's second largest city and a major Canadian business center. Many in Montreal's ethnic communities who trace their roots back to the early-mid part of the 20th century also share relatives in the Big Apple as both were big magnets for immigrants from Italy, Portugal, Greece, Eastern European Jews, etc... Montreal and New York both have sizeable fashion centers, etc..

But don't rely on the anecdotal tales (which are always misleading). Look at the numbers. Montreal-New York was the number 4 O&D trans-border market in 2005 and New York Montreal's biggest U.S. market.

#1 - New York-Toronto
#2 - Los Angeles-Vancouver
#3 - Los Angeles-Toronto

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