fiaz
Topic Author
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Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:05 pm

Hey guys

while i was looking at the home page picture, I seen a Lufthansa 767, and I started to think whether or not LH could of done even better by purchasing T7's. Yet, this aint a boeing vs airbus thread, but figures show clearly that T7 is a more efficient plane the 343 and the 773 is more fuel efficient than the 346. Maybe LH using the T7 on their current 343 routes would of helped them in terms of cargo yeilds aswell? Maybe?
Please dont start bashing me in terms of supporting Boeing, But its just a general question, and I want to see what you guys have to say about it. LH is a very large airline, seeing a T7 in LH livarly would of been great Wink

Fiaz
 
dalca
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:22 pm

Agreeing that it would look cool i doubt it will happen in the near future. LH is quite pleased with their A330/A340 fleet alongside their B747 fleet. The 3 types fill the LH routemap quite well and are always pretty full.

There might be a slim chance of Lufthansa Cargo buying the B777F in the future, not the near future though.
Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:25 pm

Nope.... I don't think so. There are plenty of successful airlines that run all Airbus fleets. While the 777 is great, it's not indispensable.
 
Feroze
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:32 pm

The Boeing 767 in question was leased for a short time from Condor. It was not a permanent addition to the LH fleet.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:46 pm

The 767 even was operated by Condor, and running to Australia.

Just looking into the numbers Lufthansa presented some days ago, their fleet decisions cannot be so wrong. Of course, Common a.netters saga wouldn't give an airline a chance that flies many Avro Jets, did not exchange the 737 classic by 737NG, keeps an A300 fleet, flies no 767/777 and does not line up for 787, is the biggest A340-600 operator, has A380 and 748i on order, does nor apply for LHR slots, has no PTV on every seat...

No, they do nor regret.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:05 pm

I think for LH, you are seeing probably the best example of what Airbus fleet commonality can do for you - with a small conversion course, your A319/A320/A321/A333/A343/A346 crews can be cross type rated as required. If you operate a big enough fleet of Airbii, you get big cost savings benefits not just in terms of crew, but also in terms of MX and parts trail inventories. This benefit offsets the slight fuel burn and payload vs range advantage the 777 would provide for most missions, although this is not as massive as some on here seem to think.

Bear in mind that LH Technik is certified to maintain a load of different types and engines (LH use the CFM56, V2500, Trent554 and Trent772 in its FBW Airbus fleet for this reason), so it suits them to operate all the Airbus types. They used to operate the A332 as well for a short time.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Leskova
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Feroze (Reply 3):
The Boeing 767 in question was leased for a short time from Condor. It was not a permanent addition to the LH fleet.



Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
The 767 even was operated by Condor, and running to Australia.

Later on, they also operated B767s leased from NG.

Nonetheless, no, I do not think LH regrets not buying any B777s.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:36 pm

Each airline buys aircraft based on business models that they operate within for specific markets. Apparently LH thought that the 777 was not a good choice for thier needs. There are plenty of other airlines that think differently, like Air France, which has a sizeable 777 fleet.
One Nation Under God
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
Later on, they also operated B767s leased from NG.

Nonetheless, no, I do not think LH regrets not buying any B777s.

Frank, as always, you're right on the mark... On the other hand, there is nothing that would prevent LH Cargo from ordering 777Fs in the near future, which has been widely rumored here and in other aviation circles. While a possibility, I believe they're more likely to buy 747-8Fs.

That said, I personally would not be surprised to see the LH Cargo livery on the 777F.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
EI321
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
Common a.netters saga wouldn't give an airline a chance that flies many Avro Jets

Airlines that operate the 146/ARJ tend to have reasons to - runway length and climb / decent angles etc. This is one reason why the aircraft suits WX very well.
 
GBan
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:20 pm

LH Posts 1billion EUR Profit In 1H2007 (by SailorOrion Jul 26 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Not that much reason to regret fleet decisions, I'd say...
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:17 pm

To draw any consequence from LH overall profits regarding the B777/A340 comparison makes little sense.
The A340 generally and the A346 in particular are a relatively low percentage of LH total fleet and the overall profit depends much more from good administration, load factors, financial soundness and other non A340 related factors !!

What could be said that with B777 the profit of LH probably would be even higher, but with the data available there is no way to quantify this.

aminobwana
 
Rj111
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Fiaz (Thread starter):
but figures show clearly that T7 is a more efficient plane the 343

Which figures are these? I've never to this day seen any.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 11):
The A340 generally and the A346 in particular are a relatively low percentage of LH total fleet

Though, they make up more than 50 percent of LH's longhaul fleet.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
columba
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Feroze (Reply 3):
The Boeing 767 in question was leased for a short time from Condor.

Nevertheless the Condor 767 carried LH´s customer code. LH leased 767s from Lauda and Condor in the 90s and earlier of this decade.

As nice as some new Boeings in LHs livery would be I doubt they regret not ordering the T7. They are very profitable with their A330/A340 fleet. In fact LH evaluated the 777-300 several times and decided against it. One time in favor for more A346s the other in favor for the 747-8I.
LH Cargo is also said to be interested in the 777F but will not order any new aircraft anytime soon. From what I have read they will convert older mainline 747s into freighters around 2010. It is rumored that a new cargo airline funded by LH and DHL will buy 777Fs, though, so there still is a chance for a 777-230F.
The 777 for LH mainline is out but I still have not given up hope for the 787 although I believe the A350 will be the aircraft of choice since LH always said the 787 is too small for them.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
enginebird
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 11):
What could be said that with B777 the profit of LH probably would be even higher , but with the data available there is no way to quantify this.

I personally doubt that it's that easy/straightforward to even make this claim, no matter how much you hate the 346, for whatever reason. The difference between the B777 and the A346 is not in economics total (which depends on many other factors: missions, mx/commonality etc.as well) but in fuel burn only. Customers, however, do not care about slight differences in fuel burn, they care about what they get for their money and I as a LH frequent flyer go out of my way (at least to a certain extent) to book flights on the A346 as I (like many of my colleagues) find the A346 much quieter/more comfortable than e.g. the AF 777s I also have to fly on a lot. So exchanging the 346s for 777s may not benefit LH all that much.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 15):

I personally doubt that it's that easy/straightforward to even make this claim



Quoting aminobwana (Reply 11):
probably would be even higher

Note that I said "probably".
This said, as not many passengers would have the choice between a B777 and A340 on a given route at a given time, the passenger gain because of a alleged comfort difference (the B777 is already very comfortable!) would be negligeable, so that the fuel burn will return to be the only issue for the Airline.

Fact is: the A340 has the Avian Flu  Wink from the Airlines acquisition point of view documented by the order flow. Therefore it is really useless to try to discuss this fact, as it is useless to state now that the B757 should not be discontinued !!

regards

aminobwana
 
dutchjet
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:40 am

This has come up before......and please lets try to avoid turning this into another A vs B situation:

1. LH has a large fleet of A340-600s......and it has placed several follow up orders for the type. Thus, LH must be satisfied with the type.

2. LH did take a long hard look at the 773ER, prior to its initial A346 order and also prior to placing followup orders for the A346. Many, many considerations are taken into account when aircraft are ordered.

3. In many respects, the 773ER is a better performing airplane than the A346, thats been discussed a zillion times here at a.net and probably even Airbus would admit to this fact.....why else would Airbus offer special deals/subsidies to potential A346 customers? BUT (and this is an important but) the A346 is certainly not a bad airplane and its not the fuel hog that some claim it to be, its a capable airplane that handles its missions quite well.

4. LH's longhaul fleet is mainly Airbus....when LH placed its initial A346 order to replace aging 747s and early build A342s, the commonality factor surely played a role and, at that point in time, the 773ER had yet to prove itself as the excellent airplane that it came to be. LH then placed A330 orders to expand its longhaul fleet....increasing its focus on Airbus for medium capacity longhaul airplanes. When it came time to place additional orders in the A346/773ER class, I know that LH did again look at the 773ER and thought long and hard about adding it to their fleet........but in the end it made little sense to introduce the 773ER and the decision was made to stay with the A346 and more were ordered.

5. Eventually, the A343s will go and LH will move to an efficient A333, A346,748I,A380 longhaul fleet......with 787s and A350s eventually joining the lineup.

6. And before we get into the political argument, remember that LH was the launch customer for the 748I.
 
CP744
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
wouldn't give an airline a chance that flies many Avro Jets, did not exchange the 737 classic by 737NG, keeps an A300 fleet, flies no 767/777 and does not line up for 787, is the biggest A340-600 operator, has A380 and 748i on order, does nor apply for LHR slots, has no PTV on every seat...



Quoting GBan (Reply 10):
LH Posts 1billion EUR Profit In 1H2007 (by SailorOrion Jul 26 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Does tend to fly in the face of what many members here exposes as disaster.

Of course, Germany hasn't exactly "run with the crowd" often. And this statement is NOT necessarily intended as a negative.
 
enginebird
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 16):

Fact is: the A340 has the Avian Flu Wink from the Airlines acquisition point of view

Well, obviously not for LH and some other airlines. 340s are comfortable planes that fit nicely into their fleet and seem to be rather economical for the missions LH assigns them to. They are also readily available, maybe that's even considered an advantage by many airlines that do order 340s.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 16):
fuel burn will return to be the only issue for the Airline

I'll try it one more time: fuel burn is not "the only issue for the Airline". Like it or not, but commonality, maintenance by LH Technik, crew assignment and many other factors are also relevant (for LH obviously even more relevant) than fuel burn alone and have to be considered. 777s are ok planes, but the do not "mop the floor with the 340s" as somebody suggested in a thread the other day.
 
LH498
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:44 am

One can conclude that it is not just about the plane, but how you use it.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Enginebird (Reply 19):
Fact is: the A340 has the Avian Flu Wink from the Airlines acquisition point of view

Well, obviously not for LH and some other airlines

Please note that I said "from the acquisition point of view" !!

Quote:
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 16)
fuel burn will return to be the only issue for the Airline



Quoting Enginebird (Reply 19):
I'll try it one more time: fuel burn is not "the only issue for the Airline

I agree that as I was discussing the comfort factor, I formulated badly. I should have written " Fuel burn will return to be more important for the airlines as the comfort factor you mentioned"

As already discussed in other thread, the only relevant more or less recent A340 order from LH was
precisely based on "other" factors as fuel burn !!
But this was an exception and even if other appear, does not change what I stated.
It is pefectly possible that if A340 are offered at very low price, so compensating the fuel burn issue, some additional orders could be booked. But such would only IMO happen if Airbus wants to do so on prestige grounds (which I hope Mr. Enders will not indulge with), as the slots could be used much better selling A330s

aminobwana
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
This has come up before......and please lets try to avoid turning this into another A vs B situation:

Pls. see my following posts after your Reply 17.

The only reason of this is to show the situation of the A340/A346, not any A vs. B issue

Further, nobody is saying that the A340 is a bad aircraft, there simply was a very serious planning mishap regarding the then future cost of fuel, in a small way compounded by COG issue reducing the payload by 5 Ton (I know that there are discussion regarding the latter issue, it is anyway not relevant for what we are discussing).

But again: the point is that the fact that from the sales point of view, nothing can be done !

aminobwana
 
AA777
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:13 am

LH just posted a billion dollar profit??? (as per the other thread)...... they must be doing something right!

-AA777
 
jacobin777
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:28 am

A346 is a great plane
+
A346 fits in LH's fleet
-----------------------------------
=
$$$ profits for LH.... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
LHSTR
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 23):
LH just posted a billion dollar profit??? (as per the other thread)...... they must be doing something right!

-AA777

Not a billion Dollar profit, but a billion Euro profit.
With the current exchange rate this should be somewhere close to 1.35 billion Dollar
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 23):
LH just posted a billion dollar profit??? (as per the other thread)...... they must be doing something right!



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
A346 is a great plane
+
A346 fits in LH's fleet
-----------------------------------
=
$$$ profits for LH....



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 13):
Though, they make up more than 50 percent of LH's longhaul fleet.

Gentlemen

Have you not read my initila Reply 11, which started this discussion ?? (and its follow up)

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 11):
To draw any consequence from LH overall profits regarding the B777/A340 comparison makes little sense.
The A340 generally and the A346 in particular are a relatively low percentage of LH total fleet and the overall profit depends much more from good administration, load factors, financial soundness and other non A340 related factors !!
What could be said that with B777 the profit of LH probably would be even higher, but with the data available there is no way to quantify this.

The profit of LH has very little to do with the A340, which is an important, but clearly minority part of LH
total fleet (the profit reflect the whole, not only the long distance, and the CASM being important for aircraft comparison, is only a relative a part of a integrated airline total costs)

Your argument I could reverse it telling that the profit was due to the B747-400 or the A300, which would be equally ridicule !! And that some years ago the results of LH were worse, it was the A340 fault !
And if US Air, with a nearly all Airbus fleet, was bankrupt from 2002-2005, was this Airbus fault ??

[b0You are all free to continue to make the apology of the A340, conveniently ignoring that airlines are not buying it any more, contrary to the B777. But of course: who are the airlines to make such decisions,???[/b]

aminobwana
 
olle
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:02 am

I billion € is now more then 1.38 Billion US dollar... That a few procentage can do so much... 30 million USD is money as well...
 
GBan
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 26):
The profit of LH has very little to do with the A340, which is an important, but clearly minority part of LH total fleet (the profit reflect the whole, not only the long distance, and the CASM being important for aircraft comparison, is only a relative a part of a integrated airline total costs)

B747-400: 30
A340-600: 17
A340-300: 28
A330-300: 10

Share of A340 is more than 50% in LH's longhaul fleet - clearly a minority? Care to guess where LH makes the profits?

You miss the point anyway (as usual). The question was: "Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?". You can argue as long as you want about fuel burn, fleet "minority" and sales numbers. The answer to the question this thread is about is very simple: There is apparently no reason why LH should regret their fleet decisions. The financial results show that they either knew what they were doing or that they had a lot of luck - both are valid reasons to be quite happy.

Don't panic, no one will draw the conclusion that the A340 in general is superior to the T7  Wink
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:09 am

1) As I stated, it is irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet. What is relevant how much it influences the overal results. Airlines with eactly the same fleet can have diametral opposite results. Which is the % of fuel costs of the total cost of LH ?? 15% ??? I really do not know.

2) When LH bought the main part of their A340, the oil prices were a fraction of the present ones. So
the decision could have been the right one.
When they bought the last 7, as I wrote in another thread, the argument of uniformity and of course also
price could have justified it. Possibly they also thought that the oill price will back down.
So, basically, as far as I and you know, there was nothing to regret.

3) The reason of my posting was, as this was the third or fourth thread were fanatics tried to deviate to downplay the drawbacks of the A340. My first words in my initial post Reply 11 were:

"To draw any consequence from LH overall profits regarding the B777/A340 comparison makes little sense"

And that is all what I tried to convey.

In short:
---------
My answer to the thread title could be

Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

I do not know. If would make little sense if they do, as the decision were right at the moment they were taken !!


aminobwana
 
bill142
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
I do not know. If would make little sense if they do, as the decision were right at the moment they were taken !!

So you think they are regretting it and all their problems could be solved by buying 777s? 1 Billion euro profit indicates to me that there aren't enough problems for LH to justify buying 777 which cost more to acquire then A340s and for LH the benfits of better economics may not outweigh the extra cost of acquisition. Even if you lease them, your lease payments are going to be more etc.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 30):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?
I do not know. If would make little sense if they do, as the decision were right at the moment they were taken !!

So you think they are regretting it and all their problems could be solved by buying 777s? 1 Billion euro profit indicates to me that there aren't enough problems for LH to justify buying 777 which cost more to acquire then A340s and for LH the benfits of better economics may not outweigh the extra cost of acquisition. Even if you lease them, your lease payments are going to be more etc.

I just said that I do not know if they regret it or not, but it would make no sense if they regret it. !!!
And of course, I agree with you that buy or lease B777 now would make even less sense

Therefore I do not understand your post. I would appreciate if you could clarify

regards

aminobwana
 
GBan
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
Which is the % of fuel costs of the total cost of LH ?? 15% ??? I really do not know.

If you don't know, why don't you look it up? (BTW, your guess is not far off!)

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
3) The reason of my posting was, as this was the third or fourth thread were fanatics tried to deviate to downplay the drawbacks of the A340.

Do you talk about yourself? I mean, when you say that the drawbacks of an aircraft have no influence on the financial results of the operator you are obviously downplaying those drawbacks, aren't you? If they are irrelevant they can't be that important after all.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting GBan (Reply 32):
I mean, when you say that the drawbacks of an aircraft have no influence on the financial results of the operator you are obviously downplaying those drawbacks, aren't you? If they are irrelevant they can't be that important after all.

I have not said they were irrelevant, but that they are not the only factor which determine if the airline is profitable or not. LH most probably would have been profitable even if instead A340s they would have flown B742 or MD11 !!!

Again: I repeat what I said initially: the fact that LH is profitable does not indicate the the A340 is more (or less) economical than the B777. My point is that trying to argue such is a apple and oranges reasonment!! But this does not mean it is irrelevant !! If flying B777 instead A340 the profit of LH would have increased $ or Euro 100M (This is only an example, to get a real figure a group of accountant would need to work a long time!), this certainly would be VERY important

And I also repeat: I certainly am not advocating that given the present situation, to substitute the A346 for B777 would be a good idea !!

I hope that I have explained myself in a objective and courteous form, if you do not agree, please reply
likewise. Thanks in advance

aminobwama
 
columba
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 33):

I think you and the others mean basically the same. LH would also be very profitable if they had a fleet of 777-200s and 777-300ERs rather than A340-300s, A330-300s and A340-600s.
AF has both 777s and A330/A340s and is one of the best run companies around and makes good money, too.
I think the point some members try to make here is that despite of a huge A340-600 fleet you can not only compete with all the airlines that fly 777-300s instead but if you use them wisely and in addition to a great A340-300 and A330-300 fleet can be even more succesful than the competitioners using the 77W on similar routes.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
As I stated, it is irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet. What is relevant how much it influences the overal results. Airlines with eactly the same fleet can have diametral opposite results. Which is the % of fuel costs of the total cost of LH ?? 15% ??? I really do not know.

I disagree with you here. It is not irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet.
LH is making most of their money on long distance routes. They have a huge competion on the domestic and European market with Air Berlin, Ryanair and Easyjet so the profit on those routes is not that big as it used to be 10 years ago.
The A340 (-300 and -600) is the backbone of their key business and very relevant for their success.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:32 pm

how much MORE profitable would LH be had it invested in superior twinjet aircraft capable of granting higher returns on the relative mission profiles upon which this airline places the 2ndrate-in-nearly-all-applications A340?

its all speculation, but the point being, LH decided that, given all information THEY have, the 777 is not worth it for them. otherwise you would see it in LH's fleet now. why? because LH have proven to have a clue, they make alot of money and know how the industry works, they are allied with another forerunner of the industry being SQ, and you can bet that there is a decent information flow between the two. SQ operates ALOT of 777s and LH decided against swapping out 340s for 777s. one could think that the possibly "longer leg" mission profile of SQ implies that there is a need for a sufficiently long avg triplength to justify the investment, but this is of course all speculation, especially since SQ did not change their ULH 345 for 777LR.

so given all the factors, from aquisition cost to fuel cost to maintenance cost to commonality savings to pax/cargo considerationgs, lufthansa has decided, with certainly VASTLY more information about REAL numbers on both planes, that buying 777s will not give them a sufficient return of investment to justify the introduction of the type.
would they have decided differently if all planes had been available at same dates? possibly but not certainly.

lets not forget that LH is profitable in the REAL world and not all things that seem to play a HUGE factor amongst forum wars play an equally big role and factor in real, profitable ops.
10=2
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
As I stated, it is irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleetWhat is relevant how much it influences the overal results
----
I disagree with you here. It is not irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet.
LH is making most of their money on long distance routes.

Could be we can agree not calling irrelevant the percentage, but that on the end the only thing that matters is how much the A340 impact the overall results ???

And the overall results are impacted more than by the fuel costs or CASM of the aircrafts by factors
as general salary levels (not only flight personnel), management and organization efficiency, sound finances (i.e. minimum interest expenses), accurate and realistic planning et. etc., last but certainly not least by political problems as 9/11 (which erased abruptly all the LH profit 2001)
As an example, the Alitalia disaster discussed under another topic certainly is not substantially caused
by aircraft related issues !!

As I wrote a while ago in another post: fuel cost and CASM are a VERY important factor as a absolute
figure, but are not the sole and often not dominant cause of profits or losses. Therefore, the latter are not a reflection of the performance of a given aircraft.

regards

aminobwana
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 29):
As I stated, it is irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet. What is relevant how much it influences the overal results. Airlines with eactly the same fleet can have diametral opposite results. Which is the % of fuel costs of the total cost of LH ?? 15% ??? I really do not know.

I disagree with you here. It is not irrelevant how many percents the A340 is of the long distance fleet.
LH is making most of their money on long distance routes. They have a huge competion on the domestic and European market with Air Berlin, Ryanair and Easyjet so the profit on those routes is not that big as it used to be 10 years ago.
The A340 (-300 and -600) is the backbone of their key business and very relevant for their success.

A340 = large portion of fleet
+
A340 = large portion of revenues
+
A340 = competitive acquisition costs, commonality, m/x, etc.
-----------------------------
=
right decision for LH =  dollarsign profits for LH = happy LH = more A346 orders for LH = happy Airbus.. Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
A340 = large portion of fleet
+
A340 = large portion of revenues
+
A340 = competitive acquisition costs, commonality, m/x, etc.
-----------------------------
=
right decision for LH = profits for LH = happy LH = more A346 orders for LH = happy Airbus..

If you look at my Reply to Columba above and my former posts, I am agreeing with you that there was nothing wrong with LH past decisions and obviously that LH has good results.

But you should agree with me that what I say above has no demonstrative value regarding comparison of fuel consumption and CASM of the A346 versus B773ER !!

aminobwana
 
NW748i
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:40 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting DALCA (Reply 1):
There might be a slim chance of Lufthansa Cargo buying the B777F in the future

I recall hearing that LH has already signed up for a batch of 748s... Was this bad info that I received?

Addendum:

I just found an article at: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2006/q4/061206a_nr.html. This mentions the 748i, but I still recall hearing that LH was getting the freighter also...

[Edited 2007-07-30 16:33:59]
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
philzh
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 10:22 pm

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 32):
Do you talk about yourself?

 rotfl 
(With all due respect, of course... )
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 38):
But you should agree with me that what I say above has no demonstrative value regarding comparison of fuel consumption and CASM of the A346 versus B773ER !!

..its obviously a well known fact the B773ER offers better CASM "pound for pound" versus the A346...but I don't think LH has any regrets purchasing the A346.. no 
"Up the Irons!"
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 41):
But you should agree with me that what I say above has no demonstrative value regarding comparison of fuel consumption and CASM of the A346 versus B773ER !!

..its obviously a well known fact the B773ER offers better CASM "pound for pound" versus the A346...but I don't think LH has any regrets purchasing the A346..

As I repeatedly stated that the LH decisions were justified and as the CASM differences were compensated by uniformity (especially when buying the last 7 units) , price and other consideration, LH should not have regrets.

Therefore we agree on both counts!!

best regards

aminobwana

[Edited 2007-07-30 18:50:54]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 42):
Therefore we agree on both counts!!

.....we finally agree on something... praise 

Regards... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:03 am

The narrower and lighter A343 burns less fuel (in gallons) than the 772ER in most missions.

It also carries less payload. The A343 seems to work great for LH.

The A346 is another matter, but it's a pleasure to see it fly, so that is worth something.
 
User avatar
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5392
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 12):
Which figures are these? I've never to this day seen any.

The following table is useful information...

http://theaviationspecialist.com/300-400_seat_drm.gif
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:58 am

Does AA regret buying MD80s instead of 737s?

The combination of availability, selling price/package, and many other factors made that the right decision for AA.

Same for LH. A340s were available before the 772ER. A346s were available before 77W. A346 slots are easier to come by then 77W's. Crew commonality. Lower price. Maintenance commonality.

Put all of these together and the fuel burn advantage of the 777 (particularly when the decision was initially made with oil at $30/bbl), and I can very well see the A340 being the right answer for LH. Similarly the 777 was the right answer for AF.

With $70 oil could the calculations have been different? Yes. Different enough to swing the deal? Possibily. Is the A340 decision a disaster making LH not-competitive? Of course not. Do they regret it? I doubt it.

I see one major issue with the A346 order. Resale price will suck if oil remains abouve $70/bbl.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
philzh
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 10:22 pm

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 45):
The following table is useful information...
http://theaviationspecialist.com/300...m.gif

Very informative, thanks for the link.

I was especially thrilled to learn that Airbus manufactures not only the A340-600 WV000, but also the 777-200ER, 777-200LR and the 777-300ER, while Boeing has taken up production of the A340-300 and A340-500 WV000.

I hope Aminobwana and our various 77x-nicknamed friends as well as Zeke will still be able to sleep after learning this somewhat rather shocking* news!

* at least to this uninformed outsider
 
gbfra
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:50 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:40 am

I suppose the answer to the question of this thread is: No, they do not regret.

But for a simple reason which is far away from the endless discussions about the merits of the B777 and/or the A340:

Companies usually do not look back. Their execs are busy thinking about the future, and this is what they are paid for. There is absolutely no sense for an exec in endlessly musing about decisions made by his predecessor(s). LH had a look at the B777 more than once and they decided against it. Point.

It is far more important for them to think about the A350 and/or the B787, and that's what they are doing. The rest is simply history. (Except for the freighter where the B777F might come in. But this is another subject because it concerns the future, too, and not the past.)
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
User avatar
A340313X
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 9:03 am

RE: Is LH Regretting Not Buying Any 777's?

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:49 am

Just one point. How many A340s are sitting around unused? Precisely 0.

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