Can you believe this moron? Security would just confiscate it so he did TSA a favor and took it himself? Nice try as*hole!

http://www.wftv.com:80/news/13694007/detail.html

[Edited 2007-07-17 15:37:59]

Quoting SCXmechanic (Thread starter): Security would just confiscate it so he did TSA a favor and took it himself?

Why would security confiscate it? Or is this a bullshit excuse?

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 1): Or is this a bullshit excuse?

*DING DING DING* we have a winner!!

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 1): Or is this a bullshit excuse?

That's b.s. I've taken my iPod through security numerous times (and haven't even removed it from my carry-on) and never had a problem.

Nice try skipper!

bcoz

I'd like to know why they allowed this guy to fly! He stole someone else's property - is theft not a crime?

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 4): I'd like to know why they allowed this guy to fly! He stole someone else's property - is theft not a crime?

Because, at least in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty.

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 4): I'd like to know why they allowed this guy to fly! He stole someone else's property - is theft not a crime?

Yup...however, theft below a certain dollar amount is a misdemeanor.

I'd guess his employer would take more action than the FAA unless it was a felony...in which case flyboy's certificate status is subject to review  

Either way, the odds don't look good for a continued career in the cockpit at an airline. You wonder why someone who's "made it" in aviation makes such a dumb move here..."see nice I-pod, apply the five-fingered discount."  

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5): Because, at least in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty.

Hmmm... lets look at this. IPOD in pilots possesion. Admitted to having it. Admitted to stealing it. Why was he allowed to fly? I'd say admitting to having it, and having it in your possession is a pretty good guilty plea.

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 7): Hmmm... lets look at this. IPOD in pilots possesion. Admitted to having it. Admitted to stealing it. Why was he allowed to fly? I'd say admitting to having it, and having it in your possession is a pretty good guilty plea.

It's called due process.

I cannot believe what this world is coming to stealing ipods from security

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6): Yup...however, theft below a certain dollar amount is a misdemeanor.

Isn't it $300 in FL? Depending on the type of iPod, that pilot committed a felony.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5): Because, at least in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty.

Yet they stick you in jail awaiting trial. Often prosecutors will let you go free if you plead guilty, but make you stay in jail if you plead not guilty.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8): It's called due process.

Exactly   

Quoting Ilikeflight (Reply 9): I cannot believe what this world is coming to stealing ipods from security

Exactly.

He was Probably was over come with the opportunity to grab the ipod while the brilliant TSA folks were tearing apart my backpack and laptop battery pack looking for the ink pen they thought was something that had more than ink in it! .   

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8): It's called due process.

But when you admit guilt when found... you pass up all rights. You will still get your day in court, but theres no way you plead "NOT GUILTY". He'll still get hung like Jesus and they'll burn his job infront of his eyes.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8): It's called due process.

Quoting Analog (Reply 10): Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8): It's called due process. Exactly

Not exactly. He should have been arrested with probable cause ... just like we all would if we were caught stealing an Ipod from an Apple store. 'Due process' means he keeps his rights to explain to a judge in a court of law, and while waiting, sit in a cell for up to 3 days. Then he gets an attorney, sees a judge and gets bail or released. That's due process folks.


Jimbo

Talk about poor judgement.

A moment of greed will probably cost this guy his job at mesa and perhaps his career as a pilot.

Quoting Analog (Reply 10): Yet they stick you in jail awaiting trial. Often prosecutors will let you go free if you plead guilty, but make you stay in jail if you plead not guilty.

That isn't true. For a misdemeanor they write you a ticket and you go to court. If it is a felony you would be arrested and have to go before a judge, who would most likely release you without bail. They guy stole an iPod, he didn't murder someone or get caught with a bunch of drugs.

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 12): But when you admit guilt when found... you pass up all rights.

Admitting your guilt to someone does not mean you give up all you rights. Depending on the circumstances it might not even be admissible in court.

Is the pay at Mesa that bad?

The FAA *could* get involved. To qualify for an ATPL, the FAA requires someone of "good, moral character". Surely this could be grounds for a review, if not outright revocation. If he's an FO without an ATPL, he may never be eligible for the cert.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 15): That isn't true. For a misdemeanor they write you a ticket and you go to court. If it is a felony you would be arrested and have to go before a judge, who would most likely release you without bail. They guy stole an iPod, he didn't murder someone or get caught with a bunch of drugs.

People are arrested every minute for misdemeanour charges. Tickets are usually for infractions, not misdemeanours, as in traffic violations.

Do you really think if you went into Best Buy, stole an IPOD, ran out of the door, got caught by a police officer ... they'd write you a ticket and send you on your way?


Jimbo

Could the station manager or some other company official at JAX have refused to let the aircraft leave? Obviously it presents a customer service issue because an already late flight would have had to have been delayed even further or canceled. However, on the other hand, it would seem to me to be good customer service to ground a pilot who just admitted to stealing a $300 piece of electronic equipment from a passenger (on his airline or another).

bcoz

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 18): Do you really think if you went into Best Buy, stole an IPOD, ran out of the door, got caught by a police officer ... they'd write you a ticket and send you on your way?

Depends on the value of the item you stole. I don't know what the threshold is between a misdemeanor and a felony, but yeah, they would let you go with a ticket. I imagine there are lots of variables in play here, where you got caught, your record, things like that.

If you Google "ticket for shoplifting" you will see lots of examples.

Also, traffic violations can also be misdemeanors, where you are given a ticket. Just ask Paris Hilton.

No company will tolerate an employee stealing from it's customers.

But would a PAX be allowed to fly with the excuse "my plane is 15 minutes late?". I doubt it.

What a knob, he probably has psych issues to exhibit this kind of behavior. To bad ANCFlyer wan't there...   

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 15): That isn't true. For a misdemeanor they write you a ticket and you go to court. If it is a felony you would be arrested and have to go before a judge, who would most likely release you without bail. They guy stole an iPod, he didn't murder someone or get caught with a bunch of drugs.

Maybe not for an iPod, but for serious crimes it sometimes happens that people are given the choice to plead guilty and go free (perhaps with a fine and/or probation) or to plead not guilty and stay in prison awaiting trial (high bail or remand). It happens mostly to poor people, as they cannot afford bail.

And, as I said earlier, it seems that stealing an iPod could be a felony in Florida.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 20): I don't know what the threshold is between a misdemeanor and a felony, but yeah, they would let you go with a ticket. I

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 20): you Google "ticket for shoplifting" you will see lots of examples.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether it's a felony or not, whether you can be arrested. You can be arrested for a felony or a misdemeanour.

I Googled as you asked, and found many examples of arrests also, for $39 lobsters, and $79 IPOD shuffles.

IMO he should be treated like anyone else caught stealing the same thing, and I think he got off very lightly.

I guarantee if you were a passenger and did the same thing at security, you wouldn't have been on that flight.

Jimbo

Yes, but you can also be arrested and just get a ticket.

Just because you get arrested does not mean you will go to jail. It is also important to remember that many times lesser felonies are knocked down to misdemeanors.

I am not defending what the pilot did, just defending the rights we all have as citizens of the US!

What I'm wondering is why this F/O wasn't replaced in JAX. Yeah, maybe there wasn't another F/O available, but I would think that this one's mind could have easily not been 100% focused on flying his trip, and instead thinking about how badly he had screwed-up his own career; how this might his very last flight; how he was going to explain this to his wife/sig other, etc...

[Edited 2007-07-17 19:06:40]

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 16): Is the pay at Mesa that bad?

Poverty is the root of crime. And at 15-20k a year, crash pad rents left and right, college tuiton paybacks, flight school credits etc.... I'm not saying he did....but I'd understand!   

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 24): just defending the rights we all have as citizens of the US!

..and those rights diminish very quickly when you commit a crime.


Jimbo

oops....double post

Jimbo

[Edited 2007-07-17 19:41:55]

That's so stupid - he jeopardized his career over a stupid iPod.
-A

Could it be that they let the pilot go because (1) no charges were filed [yet], (2) the victim did not wish to make more of a deal of having his iPod lifted than to just get it back, or (3) the pilot isn't about to just vanish into thin air (*) and, if someone wants to press charges, the authorities will know where to find him.

* Does Mesa Airlines actually fly so high that they get into "thin" air? I heard the crew members all get nose-bleeds if they go above 20,000 feet. (hehehe)

TSA with iPod stories.

Almost had a Nano yoinked a few summers ago at LAX.

I had the Nano in a clear case and they 'had' to run it through their machine no less than 4 times!

I put my shoes back on and some TSA nublet told me to have a nice day as I was standing their waiting...

I then raised my voice and asked for the iPod back. He laughed quietly and said sorry, after retrieving it from behind their screening desk.

I didn't bother to file a complaint.   

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 4): I'd like to know why they allowed this guy to fly!

Because Mesa has a pilot shortage, perhaps?

Quoting IcLCY (Reply 16): Is the pay at Mesa that bad?

Yes.

-Mir

Quoting Bcoz (Reply 3): That's b.s. I've taken my iPod through security numerous times (and haven't even removed it from my carry-on) and never had a problem.

Oh, it's even worse than that. I had my iPod in my pocket when I flew last time, and I got nothing from it. Of course, I had to send it through the x-ray along with my wallet and everything else, but it wasn't really scandalous or anything.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 15): That isn't true. For a misdemeanor they write you a ticket and you go to court. If it is a felony you would be arrested and have to go before a judge, who would most likely release you without bail. They guy stole an iPod, he didn't murder someone or get caught with a bunch of drugs.

You certainly seem to be defending the fact this guy committed a crime. Misdemeanor or not, it's STILL a crime. I certainly hope the police follow through with this and the iPod owner files charges. Just because the guy is a pilot does give him the right to be above the law. Don't let your moderator status go to your head there Click.

Personally, I would not care to entrust my safety to a person flying an airplane who is a thief. He should choose which is the more lucrative career and stay with it.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2007-07-18 02:29:08]

Quoting Clipperno1 (Reply 26): Poverty is the root of crime. And at 15-20k a year, crash pad rents left and right, college tuiton paybacks, flight school credits etc.... I'm not saying he did....but I'd understand!

Unfortunately Clipperno1, according to my Criminology texts, that's far from the truth. Crime is a complex study, and there are many factors that could precipitate a criminal action. There are millions of people, throughout the world, living in abject/absolute poverty who never commit a crime ... just the same way as there are very wealthy people (a certain media-baron comes to mind) who do commit crimes ...

Just goes to show how low today's airline industry service standards have fallen ...

Some TSA dude was all over my iphone in SFO the other day. I don't think he wanted to yank it but he messed with it for 5 minutes putting it through the x-ray machine 3 times. Yikes...

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 8): It's called due process.

The airline probably should have suspended his ass right away.

It would have been funny if the passenger he stole from was on his flight. That would make for a pretty interesting experience if the passenger was told who stole the iPod.

It's the ease with which something can be stolen from you while passing through security that make me put all of my valuables, such as my wallet, watch, or cellphone (really, anything metallic) into my carry-on bag, which I then lock, before joining the line. It makes for a faster pass through the checkpoint, since I only have to put my bag into the conveyor and not have to worry about getting a bin for everything else.

If the bag needs to be inspected, I've often seen it done in front of the passenger, reducing the chances of theft on the screener's part. If the bag needs to be taken away from me, I use a TSA lock, and my valuables are always at the top of the bag, so it's easy to notice if they're missing when they return my bag to me.

KInda off the topic a bit but what I do when I go through security is shove all my valuables (nice watch. billfold and anything else small that could walk off;, all the way up in the tip of my shoe before anyone can see it. That gets run through the x-ray and security can see it but no other prying eyes..

Even if someone did they would have to pick up the shoe and shake it out. Works great and I've yet to lose anything. I guess you learn a few tricks when you work at the airport and have to deal with the security daily. It really gets to be a drag.

Its funny working as an airline mechanic and qualified to certify an aircraft for CATIII but yet my leatherrman is deemed a threat. I have many many things in my tool box that could be useful as a weapon not to mention having complete access to all parts of the aircraft. Makes me just shake my head.

Although I do hear that there is legislation to make mechanics exempt from some of the more intense secuirty checks. For example, now I can't even bring my tools to work unless I take them to aircargo, drop them off and have them "shipped" to my workplace by the cargo runner. So much for taking some tools home to do any work around the house...

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Quoting Bcoz (Reply 19): Could the station manager or some other company official at JAX have refused to let the aircraft leave? Obviously it presents a customer service issue because an already late flight would have had to have been delayed even further or canceled. However, on the other hand, it would seem to me to be good customer service to ground a pilot who just admitted to stealing a $300 piece of electronic equipment from a passenger (on his airline or another).

Since the officer decided not to make an arrest, I don't imagine a station manager would ground the flight for this incident, if a station manager even has that authority. If we're to take the article at face value, it seems as though the police officer involved simply made a decision that the inconvenience caused to scores of airline passengers by making an on-the-spot arrest outweighed the need for swift justice. If I were the cop, I probably would have slapped the cuffs on and whisked him away to jail immediately--you don't get a ticket for stealing in my book--but this officer apparently had consideration for the passengers in mind. No doubt this guy is in trouble and I'd fire his arse right away if I were his chief pilot; Nobody with that level of integrity needs to work for me.

...but since I don't take articles at face value, let there be an investigation and if necessary, a prosecution.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23): My point is that it doesn't matter whether it's a felony or not, whether you can be arrested. You can be arrested for a felony or a misdemeanour.

In fact, you will be taken to jail if you choose not to sign the promise to appear when you've been pulled over for speeding. Traffic violations aren't "infractions" everywhere; they are Class C Misdemeanors in many places (Texas for example). They are criminal offenses for which you may request trial by jury. When you're pulled over and issued a citation, you're essentially "arrested" (although they spare us the formality of handcuffs, etc). In lieu of going to jail, you'd sign the promise to appear and are released pending trial. Haven't you seen on some tickets that say, "Signature of Arresting Officer"?

[Edited 2007-07-18 06:20:11]

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 41): If I were the cop, I probably would have slapped the cuffs on and whisked him away to jail immediately--you don't get a ticket for stealing in my book--but this officer apparently had consideration for the passengers in mind. No doubt this guy is in trouble and I'd fire his arse right away if I were his chief pilot; Nobody with that level of integrity needs to work for me.

Agreed! No question.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 41): Haven't you seen on some tickets that say, "Signature of Arresting Officer"?

Sure! My comments were to those that appeared to imply that a misdemeanour was a lesser offence and just 'deserved' a ticket. Many have spent a night or two in jail for just a misdemeanour or less.

Jimbo

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5): Because, at least in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty.

Quote from news article:

"Newton was in the cockpit of United Express Flight 7332 when officers found him and asked him to deplane, according to the police report.

Newton admitted to having the iPod in his possession, the report said. He claimed he took the iPod because he said it would just be confiscated by airport employees, according to the report.

Newton, on police order, returned to the cockpit, retrieved the iPod and handed it over to police, the report said. But because his flight was 15 minutes late, police allowed him to continue on, the report said."

He admitted stealing it - and was caught red handed - and the police retrieved the iPod from his bag. I'd call that proven guilty.

Furthermore, the stress of that situation would have (or at least SHOULD have) rattled anyone - why was he allowed to fly in that condition?! I know if a captain got busted for that kind of thing on one of MY flights - I would have been MORE than happy to wait for a new crew.

What an ass (the pilot - not you Royal!!). Takes a stupid iPod, gets caught, and when he arrived he can see it's out on the news. There goes his job - and his career. Was it worth it?!

He'll be serving burgers at McDonalds soon (they better just keep him in the kitchen and not on a cash register).

Drew

On a side note, and I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID WHAT-SO-EVER, if Mesa paid their pilots an above poverty salary he may have been able to just buy one! I am surprised they let him fly, but if they didn't that would be punishing the other passengers as well.

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 44): On a side note, and I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID WHAT-SO-EVER, if Mesa paid their pilots an above poverty salary he may have been able to just buy one!

If you don't condone it, then what was the purpose of saying what you said  

A direct implication would be that he wouldn't have done it had he been paid a higher salary!

.... and don't tell us that isn't what you meant ... pleeeeeze.


Jimbo

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 4): I'd like to know why they allowed this guy to fly! He stole someone else's property - is theft not a crime?

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5): Because, at least in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty.

Hey Click, yeah, you're right, he's technically not guily until proven innocent. And due process, etc, etc. I totally agree with you. Every man deserves his day in court...

BUT, in THIS scenero, would your thoughts change?:

Let's say I'm the pilot going through security, and I notice that in the grey bin next to mine, which just happened was the bin containing YOUR belongings, is a one-of-a-kind Andrew Klein AeroClassics 1:400 model, personally signed by said Klein as being the 1st of only 2 made (for grins we'll call it a BOAC 707 with a rare British Airways sticker or something like that - and Klein has the other...) which you had happened to pay way to much money for on eBay, about the same as you'd pay for an iPod, and I thought, "Hey, this is going to get confiscated by TSA anyway, so I should take it because those TSA guys have no idea what they have here," and then I put it in my briefcase, and proceed to my filght.

You notice upon exiting the security area that your model is missing. You want to know where the hell your model is. It has a lot of value to you. Its yours, and you want it back. The "authorities" review the tape of the security area and see that there is evidence that I have taken your model.

During this examination of the security tapes, I have proceeded to my aircraft, and am in the middle of flight prep. I am stopped prior to my departure by the "authorities" on suspicion of theft of the said highly-vaued Klein-signed model. I'm asked to deplane the aircraft for questioning. After a brief interrogation, I admit to taking the model, and upon your insistance cough up the model. I then offer the excuse that "this thing was going to get confiscated by TSA anyway, so I should take it because those TSA guys have no idea what they have here", and am allowed to depart as my flight is now at least 15 minutes late.

So, now you have your priceless Klein-signed model...and I'm allowed to continue with my flight, and the passengers of my flight are not "incovenienced." Everyone is happy, lets go about our day...

But then you find out that I am the pilot of the aircraft you are scheduled to fly on..."whoa, wait a minute here...this guy just stole my Klein model...he shouldn't be allowed to fly..." You are now flying in an aircraft with a pilot who has just been accused of theft of property. Theft of your Klein model.

Due process or not, ticket for a misdomener or arrest for felony, does it really matter? Would you entrust your life on a flight with a pilot who is accused of stealing your property? Shouldn't have the "authorities" or the airline grounded this guy until more investigations were performed? Due process will take its course, and either he will be found guilty or innocent. But there has to be a process. It seems to me that the in this case the process was cut short.

What's the difference between a pilot being accused of suspicion of theft and a pilot being accused something worse, like of being drunk? Would you continue on a flight with a pilot who was accused of being drunk without more investigation into his abiltity to fly?

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 44): On a side note, and I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID WHAT-SO-EVER, if Mesa paid their pilots an above poverty salary he may have been able to just buy one! I am surprised they let him fly, but if they didn't that would be punishing the other passengers as well.

I totally agree with this statement! Had the kid been paid what he should have for flying 50 greedy people around he wouldnt have had the heed to steal an Ipod. Like urban crime, you have to look deeper than just the suspect. How would you feel if you were making 18,000 a year? Think about it? A McDonalds manager makes twice that and if he/she messes up what happens...someone's food is wrong or the books dont add up...what happens if a pilot messes up? 50-500 people die...then you blame the pilots "How could he have messed up, he is stupid...etc..." Sometimes I wonder about humanity these days....

Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 47): Like urban crime, you have to look deeper than just the suspect. How would you feel if you were making 18,000 a year? Think about it?

There are no excuses for stealing. I wouldn't fly for Mesa, but even if I did, I wouldn't steal a passenger's stuff.

-Mir

I guess they really do pay crap at MESA