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MeridianBUF
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:59 am

http://www.estadao.com.br/cidades/not_cid20162,0.htm

9 survivors, not sure if from plane or ground. Either way not good.

Brasilian bureocracy and politics is a shame. They make the whole place not only look bad, but even manage to make it bad, at the expense of many lives.

But at least they fill their pockets nicely...no grooves on runway = more money for the 'decimo terceiro'...what a shame.

Photos:
http://www.estadao.com.br/interativi...ia/ShowGaleria.action?idGaleria=38

[Edited 2007-07-18 03:00:57]
 
legoguy
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:02 am

TAM reporting 176 onboard the flight according to CNN  Sad

It seems to vary between 174 and 176 onboard the flight.

CNN just mentioned 200 dead as said by the firefighters at the scene.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 99):
The building collapsed...

Has the entire building collapsed?

I am so pissed off right now.....I feel that a lot of people within INFRAERO and the government are responsible for this, but what pissed me off is that if the History of Brazil has thought us anything, is that these people will not be held accountable for their actions (or lack of action).

I really hope for the best for the families of the passengers and the workers of the building.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:03 am

Think the crew could have touched down a little far down the runway and ran out of concrete in the rain?

Air France in Toronto??
Southwest in the snow at MDW??
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
richm
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 97):
MSNBC is looking at the red a white lettering that reads "TAM Express" and stating that it's the fuselage and that there must be many survivors........I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think they're seeing the fuselage. Didn't the impact happen at a building marked as "TAM Express"?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19815779/

I think you're right. The TAM Express logo which can be seen in the footage, looks more like a building. Also, the aircraft in question appears to have a slightly different colour scheme, and it does not appear to feature "Express" as part of its logo.

[Edited 2007-07-18 03:04:45]
 
vbeltraJJ
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:07 am

TAM Express we can see is part of the building. The only part of the fuselage we can see is the tail.
 
Pu752
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:08 am

my god I just found out, lets hope we can have a good amount of survivors.
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting RichM (Reply 105):
I think you're right. The TAM Express logo which can be seen in the footage, looks more like a building. Also, the aircraft in question appears to have a slightly different colour scheme, and it does not appear to feature "Express" as part of its logo.

Guys, the TAM Express logo indeed is that of the building, the building that was hit is the TAM cargo Depot at CGH...the news here report that firemen fear that most likely we are looking at no survivors, unfortunately
 
TBCITDG
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:12 am

What a day!

The topic of conversation every time I went past this airport was "such a location?!?" "what if something where to go wrong?"

My thoughts go to everyone affected.
 
DAL1044
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:15 am

Video on CNN is saying the local fire dept is saying 200 dead. I pray they are wrong about such a large number .
 
AlexPorter
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 15):
If it was MBK then this would be an very interesting photo !

Apparently the photo doesn't exist anymore? Searching for it doesn't turn it up either. What the heck is going on with that? Did they snatch it away?
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:22 am

Sad Sad day guys  Sad My prayers are with all the families

Here are some notes I've been hearing (please correct if I'm wrong):

- Some rain, not that bad
- Runway was not complete after it had been closed for about 2 months for repairs
- A320
- About 175 passengers
- Probably no survivors
- The pilot tried to take off once again
 
TBCITDG
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:25 am

Deaths have just been confirmed on CNN.
It has become Brazil's worst air traffic disaster.
 Sad
 
Pu752
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting DAL1044 (Reply 110):
Video on CNN is saying the local fire dept is saying 200 dead. I pray they are wrong about such a large number

I just heard that too, I hope this wont become the newest word accident in brazilian history.
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:28 am

Out of curiosity, how long did it take before Constantino Jr. addressed the press on Gol's accident?

The news is full of people complaining that both TAM and INFRAERO have not provided any info and not indicated the passenger list yet.
 
skoker
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting Dudubsb (Reply 60):
It is interesting to see how TAM is dealing with the accident. They just updated their web page: "Information on the "incident" in Congonhas" (free translation from Portuguese). I'm not sure if "incident" has the same meaning in English, but we usually use "incident" in Portuguese for minor or accessory events.

"Incident" in US English means the same as "event" or occurrence. Both a plane crashing into an ocean and a flight running out of Diet Coke are considered to be "Incident"s in our language.
 
miaskies
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:28 am

According to CNN.Com broadcast...

200 People fatalities, as of right now no survivors from the flight; fatalities include people on the ground.

My prayers to all the families/friends of all passengers, TAM Employees, TAM Crew on Board and everyone else.

Fico com Brasil neste dia de luto
Crosscheck Complete :)
 
SBN580
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Speedbirdie (Reply 21):
And Cue Armchair CEO.. Right on Time...

Speedbirdie, the early evidence is on the lack of grooving in the runway. Here of all places, we will discuss this. Most of us are not trying to be armchair CEOs. We have genuine interest in our interest in the industry. We also want to know so that these types of incidents might be avoided.

Upon hearing about this, my thoughts went back to when I lived in Los Angeles County, California. The incident at BUR when the Southwest 737 went off the end of the runway and onto Hollywood Way, feet from a Chevron gas station. So close to real disaster.

BTW all, Miles O'Brien reported on CNN that the plane may have tried to get airborne again when the real estate started running out. This might explain why it ended up where it did vis a vi the airport area map. Perhaps it stalled or just did not get enough lift. Very sad.

[Edited 2007-07-18 03:32:35]
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
AirSpare
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting MeridianBUF (Reply 101):
Photos:
http://www.estadao.com.br/interativi...ia=38

I think these photos sum it up. Images from hell.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
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A340313X
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:31 am

bbc news 'up to 200 people may have died' from a brazilian news centre.
 
heliflyerPDC
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:31 am

I pray for survivors, and my condolences to the victims and their family and friends.
grtz PDC
 
Pu752
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 112):
- The pilot tried to take off once again

wow, I find this hard to believe
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting DAL1044 (Reply 110):
Video on CNN is saying the local fire dept is saying 200 dead. I pray they are wrong about such a large number .

According to CNN, this has been confirmed ... This is very bad.
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:33 am

Unfortunately, this was an announced tragedy, that could have happened anytime. Many aviation specialits in Brazil are reporting the runway, which had recently undergone resurfacing repairs, was reopened with incomplete works of grooving on the ciment paved runway, that would allow appropriate water channeling out of the runway while under heavy & consistant rain conditions.

If indeed this is the cause of such horrendous accident, that will be many government staff to blame.
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:33 am

Will all flights be transfered to GRU today and tomorrow? How is this taking care of?
 
LGA777
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 111):
Apparently the photo doesn't exist anymore? Searching for it doesn't turn it up either. What the heck is going on with that? Did they snatch it away?

Not sure if the site removed it or the photographer did, was a great shot of same aircraft, same airport, same runway, same conditions, lots and lots of spray being blown by the reversers, I believe shot in March 2007. And just want to add my RIP and condolonces to all effected famlies and to all TAM employees worldwide and especially at CGH.

Regards

LGA777
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 112):
- The pilot tried to take off once again

A go around then? It is possible but I think it's too early to say for certain unless someone heard it on the radio.

Note that the following is not speculation, just explanation of go around concepts. I'm not saying this is what happens. I am saying that I find it unlikely an experienced pilot would initiate a go around after committing to a landing.

There is a concept called "decision height". At this point in the approach the pilot flying needs to decide whether to land or go around. This decision height depends on many factors including the category of the approach. After this point the aircraft is committed to a course of action. A decision to go around after decision height has passed is typically unwise unless there is something like another aircraft on the runway. Once brakes have been applied, going around is even more unwise.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
dellatorre
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 120):
Another classic and unforgiveable example of Brazil and putting the cart before the horse. Now almost 200 more lives are lost and there are no American Embraer pilot to blame for it this time. Let us see if anyomes head rolls for this one.

What a ridiculous statement.
 
sampa737
Posts: 463
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 am

I've heard via CNN that flights will be rerouted to GRU, Sao Jose dos Campos, Campinas, Santos. There's no way one airport could handle all that traffic, is there? I live not 5k from CGH and always wondered if this thing could happen. 200 dead as of 10:30pm local time. God bless those working through the night to save possible survivors. Terrible day in this great country.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 am

Just read that yesterday there was an incident with a PANTANAL aircraft. It too went off the runway after landing in the same airpoirt. Can any one elaborate?
 
TUNisia
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:39 am

Larry King on CNN just said at least 200 confirmed dead. RIP  Sad

TUNisia
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 120):
Another classic and unforgiveable example of Brazil and putting the cart before the horse. Now almost 200 more lives are lost and there are no American Embraer pilot to blame for it this time. Let us see if anyomes head rolls for this one.

A bit premature to be assigning blame wouldn't you say? All we know for sure at this point is that a plane crashed and there's a rather nasty fire. For all we know a meteor could have crashed through the windshield and killed the pilots.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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clickhappy
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting LGA777 (Reply 127):
Not sure if the site removed it or the photographer did

The shot was removed at the request of the photographer.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting PU752 (Reply 123):
wow, I find this hard to believe

"We saw the plane go straight down the runway. It didn't manage to stop and went into the avenue. It went by so fast that we thought it was taking off," Barros said.

Maybe this is where the "take-off" attribution came from? Or maybe the plane really was trying to take off again.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 124):
According to CNN, this has been confirmed ... This is very bad.

What could be confirmed? Nothing at this point could be confirmed, certainly not the number of dead.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 125):
Unfortunately, this was an announced tragedy, that could have happened anytime. Many aviation specialits in Brazil are reporting the runway, which had recently undergone resurfacing repairs, was reopened with incomplete works of grooving on the ciment paved runway, that would allow appropriate water channeling out of the runway while under heavy & consistant rain conditions.

You are not really suggesting that this was an accident waiting to happen?
 
777fan
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 132):
Larry King on CNN just said at least 200 confirmed dead. RIP

I'm normally suspicious of anything that comes out of his mouth (he's practically senile) but CNN's site now reports the Sao Paolo FD as saying "at least" 200 are dead. Goodness...


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
LGA777
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 134):
The shot was removed at the request of the photographer

Thanks for the info Clichappy.

LGA777
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:46 am

Any news on JJMNGR ?

I pray for the 200 people dead on the worst day of Brazilian Aviation.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:47 am

Some CNN.com clippings.

A Brazilian court in February banned large jets at the busy airport because of safety concerns, The Associated Press reported.

But an appeals court overruled the ban, saying it would hurt business and that the safety problems did not warrant halting air traffic, according to AP.


Nice. Let the courts decide on aviation safety. But I'm sure there's more to the story.


"When you fly into Congonhas airport, it is like you are literally flying past people's living rooms in apartment blocks," Hennigan said. "Then you land on the runway. It is completely surrounded by the central part of Sao Paulo city. This is not an airport out on the edge of the city. This is right in the city."

I don't buy this as a "reason" by the way. Kai Tak was perfectly safe despite 747s whizzing past skyscrapers, wicked crosswinds and a visual turn very late in the approach. Despite what the news media says, pilots don't miss the runways that way. Overruns, on the other hand...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bravogolf
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:48 am

Seems like everyone is blaming the airport operator for not grooving the runway. If I was reading the posts correctly, the runway was just repaved. If the pavement is asphalt, it cannot be grooved for several months after it was laid because it is still too soft and the saw blades will not cut correctly and gum up.
 
vbeltraJJ
Posts: 56
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:49 am

Nope, no news from him. I have a friend who is on a hospital near my house but he is unreachable right now. This guy worked near JJMNGR but we can not talk with him right now.

Let's pray for the best news so far...
 
ltbewr
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:51 am

It is a sad day for aviation in Brazil and now they have had their 2 most deadly accidents in their history in less than 1 year. That this accident was on the anniversary of TWA 800 JFK-CDG is a bad coincidence. Let all hope for many survivors from the buildings and the aircraft.
One thing I notice is that there is only 100 meters between the end of the runway and the airport property line in the accident site and that there are public roads and buildings just beyond the fence. It reminds me of the WN incident at MDW that ran out of a short runway in bad conditions (snow, ice) and hit a car on a nearby road killing a child pax in the car. Too bad there wasn't the space at the end of the runway like with the AF A345 incident at Toronto that despite the flight going beyond the runway, everybody survived with only minor injuries.
Clearly heads at the airport authoity should roll for their part in this accident, especially if the lack of grooved payment are proven a factor in it.
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:54 am

Do you guys think the pilot tried to turn the plane to the left so he wouldn't go straight into the small cliff? Is that where that cliff/incline is located in Congonhas?

Here is the pic

http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/SaoPaulo/foto/0,,11173669,00.jpg
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:39 am

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 140):
Seems like everyone is blaming the airport operator for not grooving the runway. If I was reading the posts correctly, the runway was just repaved. If the pavement is asphalt, it cannot be grooved for several months after it was laid because it is still too soft and the saw blades will not cut correctly and gum up.

Thanks for the info BG. After a little search, I found an article in O Globo [subscribers and in Portuguese only], where a regional manager for Infraero states almost exactly what you said. The new pavement was indeed asphalt, but he said they were going to wait only 30 days before starting the grooving (which would be done at night).
Let's go Pens!
 
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A340313X
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:01 am

Sky news (UK) reports the Governor of Sao Paolo has confirmed that rescuers believe no-one could have survived.

How awful.
 
HNLtrades118
Posts: 31
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:01 am

My God, what a horrible tragedy, especially in the wake of the Gol 1907-Embraer disaster last year.

Thanks to all who posted information, but I can't help but feel a little like a vulture, so curious about this kind of calamity. My sympathies go out towards all involved.

~jon
"Do not wait for extraordinary circumstances to do good action; try to use ordinary situations." -Sam Rayburn
 
Pu752
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 143):
Do you guys think the pilot tried to turn the plane to the left so he wouldn't go straight into the small cliff? Is that where that cliff/incline is located in Congonhas?

Too early, but probably the pilots didnt have total control of the plane if it skidded off the rwy. Hard to know.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 102):
CNN just mentioned 200 dead as said by the firefighters at the scene.

CNN is the only one saying this currently, it seems.

Quoting DAL1044 (Reply 110):
I pray they are wrong about such a large number .

 checkmark 

Quoting N710PS (Reply 120):
no American Embraer pilot to blame for it this time

Huh?

Quoting Khobar (Reply 135):
What could be confirmed? Nothing at this point could be confirmed, certainly not the number of dead.

Agreed. BBC, FoxNews, Bloomberg and Reuters all report lower numbers of injured/fatalities, or, at least, haven't reported with certainty the number of dead like CNN has (although, now, BBC has changed it's story to say they fear "scores of people" dead).

-R
Living the American Dream
 
Eirules
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:05 am

So very very sad. May all of the victims rest in peace and may all of our thoughts be with their family & friends at this time
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 140):
Seems like everyone is blaming the airport operator for not grooving the runway. If I was reading the posts correctly, the runway was just repaved. If the pavement is asphalt, it cannot be grooved for several months after it was laid because it is still too soft and the saw blades will not cut correctly and gum up.

Good info. And furthermore, it's not like the absence of grooving comes as a surprise at the moment of landing. These things are well known and documented, and thus influence landing calculations.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
gomuppets
Posts: 52
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:10 am

Saw an article in the NY Times about it, but the heading was a bit misleading:

"Passenger Skids Off Runway in Brazil"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/18/wo.../18brazil.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

clearly they mean passenger plane, but before i clicked the link and saw what the story was about, i had some funny imagery in my head.

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