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A340313X
Posts: 169
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:11 am

Sky news: Financial Times correspondant in Sao Paolo reports the pilot attempted to take off again after realising the aircraft would not stop. One of the A320's laning gear hit a taxi on the road by the airport and hit a caro terminal.

Also in this report: an aircraft skidded on the same runway since it's re-opening, presumably with little other incident. An emergency meeting of Government has apparently been called. The correspondant says that the re-surfacingwork on the runway was not complete.

[Edited 2007-07-18 04:13:18]
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 140):
Seems like everyone is blaming the airport operator for not grooving the runway. If I was reading the posts correctly, the runway was just repaved. If the pavement is asphalt, it cannot be grooved for several months after it was laid because it is still too soft and the saw blades will not cut correctly and gum up.

This doesn't clear INFRAERO on allowing operations on a runway that was closed down to begin with to make it safer to land on it during rain. The consequence of this action was the death (apparently and sadly) of around 200 people, and they even had a warning yesterday (the Pantanal aircraft that also skid, on the same runway).

Let's not forget, before the closure of CGH's rwy 17R/35L, 3 aircraft had skid of the runway (BRA, Gol and Varig), not to mention a business jet that could not stop.

In conclusion, R$ 18 million was spent, the grooving was not done due to the reason you mentioned above, but the runway as cleared for operations nonetheless, and DURING RAIN!......I think that spells out "negligence".
 
CO777DAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting PPSMA (Reply 67):
Hi everybody!

This is to try and give those who are not familiar with the area of the airport AN IDEA of where the A320 crashed!

Photo taken from Google Earth.

Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....
Worked Hard. Flew Right. Farewell, Continental. Thanks for the memories.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:17 am

I just wanted to say RIP to those involved, Its a terribly tragedy...

And i'm also very unhappy with the fact that neither, CNN, MSNBC or even Fox is even reporting anything on the story at this time....Only thing they're talking about is about that Pro Wrestler who killed his family, and something about a Guy who tried to kill himself in Wyoming....

Irregardless, I get my news from the BBC....

My Apologies and condolences to those involved.
 
D L X
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):

Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....

Ask the folks in Burbank that question too.
 
lostturttle
Posts: 134
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 139):
Some CNN.com clippings.

A Brazilian court in February banned large jets at the busy airport because of safety concerns, The Associated Press reported.But an appeals court overruled the ban, saying it would hurt business and that the safety problems did not warrant halting air traffic, according to AP.

Nice. Let the courts decide on aviation safety. But I'm sure there's more to the story.

Bloomberg February 11th 2004

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...news&tkr=TAMM4:BZ&sid=aVCsxPnejz3U


"Brazil's Ocean Air May Halt Flights on Sao Paulo Plane Ban

By Heloiza Canassa and Guillermo Parra-Bernal

Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Ocean Air Linhas Aereas Ltda., a Brazilian regional carrier, may halt flights at an airport serving Sao Paulo after a judge banned some jets there because of landing mishaps.

The judge's ruling may force Ocean Air to move the planes to other domestic destinations from the Congonhas city airport near Sao Paulo, Brazil's largest city, said German Efromovich, the carrier's controlling shareholder and chairman. The move would take at least 30 days, and Efromovich didn't give a cost.

''Following an orderly and well-planned strategy, we would have to halt operations,'' Efromovich said today at a Sao Paulo news conference. Ocean Air ''wouldn't have problems honoring its commitments. It's simply that the business wouldn't be viable.''

The order from Judge Ronald Carvalho Filho of the 22nd federal court in Sao Paulo comes less than two weeks before the carnival holiday, raising the possibility of delays and cancellations. He banned Fokker-100 and Boeing Co. 737-700 and 737-800 jets from the Congonhas airport after several cases of planes skidding on landing.

Brazil's aviation regulatory agency plans to appeal the decision, which takes effect Feb. 8"
 
TBCITDG
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:22 am

Ask the folks in AEP as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember the LAPA incident?
 
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A340313X
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:24 am

Blue Elephant, sky news (UK) aer doing a better job than the bbc right now.
 
bravogolf
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:25 am

Two additional questions I would have about the repaving job. Is the runway crowned? Higher in the center than the sides? Does Brazil require the same asphalt mix that the FAA requires in the US. Could the type of mix used be creating a slippery surface?
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:29 am

Guys,

There is a A.net member (JJMNGR) who, according to some people here, works or at least worked at the very building that was hit by the A320

Any news from him yet?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:33 am

FMAL,

Not yet, i'm trying to reach some other JJ frieds in order to obtain his phone.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
777fan
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:35 am

CNN is going with "at least 200 dead" on the front of their website and is quoting rescuers as saying there doesn't appear to be anyway passengers could've survived. Ugh.



777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 162):
FMAL,

Not yet, i'm trying to reach some other JJ frieds in order to obtain his phone.

Felipe

Thanks Lipe, it would be great to find out that a fellow A.netter is safe.
 
Pu752
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 162):
Not yet, i'm trying to reach some other JJ frieds in order to obtain his phone.

Keep us informed please, thanks!
 
787EWR
Posts: 162
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:40 am

A very sad day. RIP to the victims and peace and strength to their loved ones.


I would imagine the airport will remain closed until such time as Brazilian authorities complete their investigation. Perhaps longer.

CNN reported that the main runway was closed for a period of time. During this time, were 737A320's banned from the airport?
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:44 am

QUESTIONSSSSSSSSSSS!

1. What time was the incident?

2. What will happen to Congonhas now? Closed indefinetely?

Hope JJMNGR is safe!
 
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Vasu
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:46 am

Story now prominent on BBC News website, but no mention on BBC News 24 Channel.

My thoughts are with the friends and families of the passengers  Sad
 
mrocktor
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):
Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....

It is actually well off to the left, as can be seen in the Google Earth picture in reply 67. The pilot aparently maneuvered significantly, perhaps trying to turn onto the taxiway at high speed. Had he gone straight ahead, there would have been a lot more space before hitting buildings (although he would be crossing heavy traffic avenues instead). A lose-lose situation any way you look at it, at that point.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):
Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....

Not trying to be flippant here but the answer would be "They assumed aircraft would use the actual runway". Also if you look at the Google Earth pic it is off to one side.

Quoting FMAL (Reply 153):
In conclusion, R$ 18 million was spent, the grooving was not done due to the reason you mentioned above, but the runway as cleared for operations nonetheless, and DURING RAIN!......I think that spells out "negligence".

Maybe. There is no way of knowing such information at this time.

Quoting A340313X (Reply 152):
Sky news: Financial Times correspondant in Sao Paolo reports the pilot attempted to take off again after realising the aircraft would not stop.

I am wondering where the correspondent's information comes from.

< speculation >
If the pilot starts braking and realizes the plane will not stop, it is way too late to initiate a go around. The best thing you can do is keep braking and try to steer clear of any obstacles. I find it hard to believe an experienced pilot would attempt a go around so very long after decision height.
< /speculation >
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BlueElephant
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting A340313X (Reply 159):
Blue Elephant, sky news (UK) aer doing a better job than the bbc right now.

Well thats good, but we don't get that much here either, All we get is stuff about Anna Nicole Smith's Death, and Paris Hilton getting out of Jail.


Does this mean now that The airport will close?..That'd be very dissapointing...
 
eddieho
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:52 am

Why do pilots attempt landing in "heavy rain".... why?????

(PS. I was on the Air France 358 plane cash - same thing, but everyone survived).
 
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Vasu
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 171):
Does this mean now that The airport will close?..That'd be very dissapointing...

Not sure about that, but BBC are reporting that it is now closed to 737-700, -800 and f100
 
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Vasu
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:55 am

 
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Vasu
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:56 am

Please ignore the above, I realised it was an old story!
 
Corsair1107
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:58 am

Very sad. Such senseless tragedies can touch so many lives. Prayers to the families.
Flown on: DHC-6/8, F100, B1900C, 717, 727, 737, 757, 767, 777, 319, 320, C152/172, E135/145, DC-9, MD-83/88 CL600
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 172):
Why do pilots attempt landing in "heavy rain".... why?????

(PS. I was on the Air France 358 plane cash - same thing, but everyone survived).

"Heavy rain" is a highly subjective term. Water in itself is not an issue, but traction on a runway is. Winds are much more of a risk factor in any case.

We have no way of knowing at this time if there are similarities with AF358.

Pilots do not (or at least should not) just "wing it". They follow very detailed procedures and if it is deemed safe they can go for a landing The Captain has the last word but he or she cannot just defy company and authority regulations. It's either safe or it isn't. And "heavy rain" doesn't by definition make landing unsafe. If landing in "heavy rain" was not safe, a lot more flights would have to divert every day.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ebs757
Posts: 620
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:02 pm

cnn reporting everyone on the plane dead and 24 people on the ground dead. Very sad.. What negligence on the airports part. My sincere condolences.
Viva la Vida
 
allstarflyer
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):
Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....



Quoting D L X (Reply 156):
Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):

Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway? so sad....

Ask the folks in Burbank that question too.

And O'Hare - there's a Thornton's beyond the end of 32L on Wolf Rd.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
ilikeflight
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:07 pm

My condolences to the families of the lost ones and may they R.I.P
Think Different
 
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Acey
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 154):
Why would someone build a gas station near the end of a runway?

Not every day does an airplane come ripping through said gas station. Not saying it's perfectly fine, but there are probably lots of airports with gas stations near the runway, keep in mind also that this was slightly off the runway centerline as well according the the images. There are huge fuel farms at several US airports. If a plane hit one of them and subsequently exploded, would we complain and say there shouldn't be fuel stored at the airport?
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
san747
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Ebs757 (Reply 178):

cnn reporting everyone on the plane dead and 24 people on the ground dead. Very sad.. What negligence on the airports part. My sincere condolences.

Wow! It really saddens me to hear that... I'm not sure of the entire story, I've been skimming through the replies, so if anyone could kind of paraphrase what happened...

Thanks,
san747
Scotty doesn't know...
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Ebs757 (Reply 178):
What negligence on the airports part.

Again, there is no way of knowing anything like that at this time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pu752
Posts: 450
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:12 pm

12 people dead on ground, folha.com.br stated.
 
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Acey
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting San747 (Reply 182):
I've been skimming through the replies, so if anyone could kind of paraphrase what happened...

From what I understand, the plane tried to land in heavy rain, runway was just over 6,300 feet long, went off the end, crossed a highway at the bottom of a hill, ploughed through a building. 175 or so on the plane, reported to be no survivors, and also a dozen or more dead on the ground. Several sources have reported at least 200 total fatalities.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
MPLSflyer
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm

MPLSflyer
 
LipeGIG
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 163):
CNN is going with "at least 200 dead" on the front of their website and is quoting rescuers as saying there doesn't appear to be anyway passengers could've survived. Ugh.

It's a kind of situation that i'm trying to avoid but the situation seems to be the same as WTC plane crashes. Not so many fuel, but some... an oven during more than 5 hours... no one can survive in a situation like that.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 169):
It is actually well off to the left, as can be seen in the Google Earth picture in reply 67. The pilot aparently maneuvered significantly, perhaps trying to turn onto the taxiway at high speed. Had he gone straight ahead, there would have been a lot more space before hitting buildings (although he would be crossing heavy traffic avenues instead). A lose-lose situation any way you look at it, at that point.

If we remember the position of the Pantanal ATR yesterday incident, i could imagine that something closer would happen to PR-MBK. Pantanal was lucky and the grass help to stop... TAM as we know.. was not that lucky.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
MPLSflyer
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:17 pm

MPLSflyer
 
khobar
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting Corsair1107 (Reply 176):
Such senseless tragedies can touch so many lives.

Unfortunately, accidents all too often make perfect sense, once the facts are understood. We can only hope that the causes are identified and the proper lessons learned which may actually save lives down the road.
 
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Acey
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 187):
the same as WTC plane crashes. Not so many fuel, but some

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, but this plane was in the process of landing after what can be assumed to have been a normal flight, accordingly it would have had the normal quantity of fuel for a landing. All four 9/11 flights were cut well short before making their transcontinental journeys, and had tens of thousands of pounds of fuel remaining. The fuel added to the catastrophic nature of the fires at the Trade Center. Did fuel play a part here? Well, I'm not even going to say anything because no one knows anything yet...we'll just have to wait and see.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
cubastar
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 181):
Not saying it's perfectly fine, but there are probably lots of airports with gas stations near the runway, keep in mind also that this was slightly off the runway centerline as well according the the images.

A LOT of airports (particularly close-in airports) have gas stations at or near the airport perimeter. Right here in Dallas, Love Field (DAL) has several gas stations located between the end of runways 13L/R. Go a mile (or less) south of the end of the runways and you have numerous gas stations located in the direct routes of departure. Just a fact of life.
 
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Acey
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 191):
A LOT of airports (particularly close-in airports) have gas stations at or near the airport perimeter. Right here in Dallas, Love Field (DAL) has several gas stations located between the end of runways 13L/R. Go a mile (or less) south of the end of the runways and you have numerous gas stations located in the direct routes of departure. Just a fact of life.

Exactly, you're confirming my point. The others were criticising the fact that CGH, BUR, and ORD had a gas station near the end of the runway. As with all crashes, there's probably going to be a number of factors coming together to cause the catastrophic nature of the crash, and a gas station being there is perhaps one of them.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 158):
Ask the folks in AEP as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember the LAPA incident?

I was just about to post this as well. When airports are located in the middle of populated areas there is little margin for error. The LAPA accident was almost the same, except that in that case the plane was not landing but was taking off and did not manage to gain altitude and went straight down the rwy and crossed a major avenue until it finally crashed into a golf course. Luckily the LAPA plane missed a nearby gas station.
As someone mentioned earlier downtown located airports have advantages, but the disadvantages are too big of a risk IMO. Airports need to be as far away as possible from dense population. Remember the other TAM accident? RIP to the victims  Sad

regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8524
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:41 pm

Not again. . .  Sad

Hope JJMNGR is safe.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cubastar
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 192):
Exactly, you're confirming my point

Absolutely! After I posted, I thought perhaps you might misunderstand what I said. Obviously, you didn't. Thanks.
 
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donzilasse
Posts: 214
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RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:47 pm

Lipe, as always a pleasure to talk to you even if this is a tragic moment for everyone.

Did they land towards the big street today and did they actually cross the street to the TAM Express building. I thought from TV Globo that this must be the case.

It is a tragic day and it is just so unnecessary! If just Infraero would have improved the conditions at CGH this would not have had to happen!

When they awhile ago banned some other airline temporary with 737,2 a.s.o. nothing was said about the Airbus. I thought at that time that this was strange. Could it possibly also be some corruption involved here?

May all the now deceased passangers and crew rest in peace and lets hope that finally the Brazilian goverment will take the necessary steps to make the nations busiest airport safe for travellers, aircraft crews and neighboring residents. This is just a tragic fiasco which shows the incompetens of Infraero and the Brazilian goverment.

Lasse
 
Milesdependent
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 5:27 pm

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 187):

It's a kind of situation that i'm trying to avoid but the situation seems to be the same as WTC plane crashes. Not so many fuel, but some... an oven during more than 5 hours... no one can survive in a situation like that.

Huh?

With the WTC crashes the planes were absolutely packed with fuel, as the crashes occurred at the start of trans-con flights.
 
san747
Posts: 4361
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 190):
Did fuel play a part here? Well, I'm not even going to say anything because no one knows anything yet...we'll just have to wait and see.

If it hit a gas station, fuel very much played a part here... the aircraft fuel may not have so much, but hit a gas station with a plane and I can imagine fuel of some sort (car or plane) is going to be involved in any negative incident...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
elvis777
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:23 am

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:54 pm

Howdy all,

It is indeed a tragic event. Here is to those that take to the skies and to their families....

This does appear to be similar to the WN 737 that skidded of the runway at LAS. I believe it was raining and the bird came to a stop within 50 meters of a gas station. I believe that was a pilot error and the two in command were promtly let go by WN....It is too early to tell here, after grieving the business of accident investigation will start and we will soon get an answer but..... there are some similarities

Peace

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
dudubsb
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:11 am

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:54 pm

According to the Commander of the Brazilian Air Force, tower employees have confirmed that the aircraft landed on the correct segment of the runway, but somehow did not manage to reduce its speed. They are now trying to find the black boxes to confirm this information. Government officials speculate whether the accident was caused by the runway or by some problem with the aircraft. More infos at http://uolpolitica.blog.uol.com.br (in Portuguese).

In time: Globonews is telling that 27 bodies have already been recovered...
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: TAM Plane Crashed In CGH

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:58 pm

Sad to hear this happened. My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

[Edited 2007-07-18 06:00:11]

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