|Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.
There is no doubt EK
are doing a QF
in order to "screw" the successful tenderer as low as possible.
|Quoting PM (Reply 7):
How amusing that the A350 is now being used as a stick to beat the 787 with! How the wheel turns...
You would have to say that Boeing and EK
are in the best position here. With nearly 700 units sold to nearly 50 different customers and a strong income stream about to start they can well afford to go low to win this one. Should Airbus win this cut throat contest they will be wondering whether it was worth it. Like QF
whichever way it goes EK
will be the winner only Boeing is in a better position whether they win or lose.
|Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
As the natural replacement for the 77W is the A350-1000, it is almost a given EK will go for this plane at some point in time as its CASM is so much better
It always amuses me how excited the Airbus clan get over the A350-1000. Airbus began the widebody twin era with the A300 only they were short on range and the 767ER models eclipsed them at their own game.
Airbus responded with the A330 which is a damn fine plane but a little short on range. With this model they promoted the A330 as medium range
and the 4 engine A340 as the long range option (dare I say it "4 engines 4 long haul)
Boeing in probably one of their smartest moves in the last 15 years trumped Airbus by taking a 'punt' in the development of high thrust engines required for design missions. The 77W and even the 772ER epitomise everything that Airbus didn't do. They did not have a long range large payload capable twin capable of mixing it with the 772ER and C market versions.
Airbus whilst lost amongst A380 development and problems did not even see the 787 coming and when they did they readily dimissed the threat and by their own admission were well and truly caught napping.
There first serious response did not measure up to 787 and the market clearly told them so.
|Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
If they woudn't have trust in Airbus, do you think they'd have placed 2 follow up orders for more A380s this year alone?
I think EK and Airbus' relation is perfectly fine: Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem, but they have overcome them and the plane itself definitely lives up to the expectations of its customers, so much even EK is clearly thrilled with it (just read the comments and look at their recent orders).
But you conveinantly forgot to mention the "dog" and this is the bitter pill that EK
must swallow. I remember very clearly EK
ordering the A346 and all the fanfare that went with it. EK
had huge plans for A346 and in fact they also order some 77W (leased). EK
had concerns about 77Ws hot and high performance, not enough thrust etc.
As everybody now knows the 77W beat performance targets and killed the A346 stone dead. EK
never took any of the A346 and refused point blank to take them. They have since ordered truckloads of 77W along with many other RR
powered 777 airlines who have also embraced the GE
I believe it was this predicament that caused Airbus to rethink their A350 stratergy. They were on a hiding to nothing going head to head with the mega successful 787. They also had to deal with the amazing success of 77W as well as the 787. The 787/777 combo was killing them. In 2005 777 killed A340 154 to 15 which translates to a TEN thanks SNATH)
to 1 drubbing.
I believe Airbus has postioned the A350 in about as good a position as they can although it is a difficult task to optimise a plane capable as a 77W but also against the 787-8. Take note that the 30 787 for QR
may indicate that they may have aimed a little high (why else would QR
order 787 as well as A350) Also the of the 700 odd 787s sold the majority are the smallest version and to a large number of customers as well. People seem to forget that one of the big selling points for 744 was RANGE. You needed one to do Singapore Europe nonstop period end of story. Then came the 772ER and that started to do to the 744 what the 767 did to the 747 Trans Atlantic market. Soon a 788 will be able to do the same long range journeys that were once the exclusive domain of the largest Jets and with lower CASM and proportionately far better freight carrying ability over 744/A380. Remember that CASM is only better (sometimes) if you can fill the damn plane. It is no coincidence that Airlines have been progressively downsizing over the last few years and there is a market for a limited number of A380s in certain markets
Boeing is well position to garner a larger share of customers and then grow them into larger derivatives as they are developed. Airbus were in the same position with the A330 but it never developed into the long range twin that the 777 became and hence a lot of customers operated A330/777 side by side. The 787/A350 will be a similar situation excepting that the 788 will be able to perform any long range mission the A350 can and the plans of some of the new 788 operators will be interesting indeed!! The 787-10 to a certain degree has been a victim of its smaller sibling success. Boeing don't need offer one yet they are content to wait a little longer to see what Airbus are offering or guaranteeing would be more the point. The barrel versus panel approach will be interesting but I suspect the normal engineering chronological order for these would have been panels first and then later barrels but time will tell thats for sure. I believe Airbus have gone for panels to keep development time and cost down. This has been and will be debated in other threads.
I remember a chart posted not that long ago that showed the 358 359 3510 all with around 8500nm range. This is the problem that EK
may have with the A350, it sound great looks great but the engineering department still have to engineer the promises. They don't have to look back far to remember the A346 debacle.
One thing is for sure they know what they want they are just playing games to get the best possible price. The biggest problem for Airbus is that the A3510 may or may not out do the 77W. It should be because its 10 years newer!!! arriving 10 years after 77W. Even if the A3510 is better I doubt in current specs it will have the physical payload uplift(95K powerplants) the 77W will continue to sell well in the interim because the A3510 is still 7 odd years away just like the A330 continues to sell well despite the technological advances of the 787 because it is still a damn good plane and available relatively quickly.ame will apply to the 77W in 2011 12 and 13
[Edited 2007-07-19 17:39:24]