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John
Topic Author
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CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:20 am

CGH runway=6300 feet

SDU runway=4400 feet

Both of these airports handle 737/A319/A320 operations. So which runway would you consider DANGEROUSLY short?
I think the answer is obvious, but I realize there are other osbstacles affecting the operation at CGH, which demand immediate attention..

[Edited 2007-07-19 19:24:20]

[Edited 2007-07-19 19:25:26]
 
vbeltraJJ
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:25 am

Normally we don´t have A320 landing in SDU, just the A319 and B737.
 
John
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:59 am

Regardless, an A319 or 737-300 is still too big of an airplane to be operating from a 4400 foot runway!
 
mandala499
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:15 am

Let's start...
SDU=4400ft sea level
CGH[email protected] elev... this is equal to... 5000 - 5500ft at sea level?

SDU=Well grooved and has a nice drainage characteristics...
CGH=Recently resurfaced runway, when wet, damn slippery

Well, let's assume you slip up on your landing... and overruns...

SDU... you overrun, you take a swim.
CGH... you overrun, you fall off the edge and the aircraft breaks up and probably blow up too...

Scared of overrunning? OK, let's undershoot the approach...
SDU = You hit water or that short wall above the water onto the runway... gears and wings sheared off or you'd bounce and skip on the water onto the runway...
CGH = You hit the hillside... that is if you don't hit the approach light/ILS LLZ pylons... you'd die for sure if you grossly undershoot here...

Obstacles?
SDU=That big rock or that bridge... I'd make that turn of I don't wanna hit that cumulus granitus!
CGH=Buildings... buildings... buildings...

I'd wet my pants trying to stop in SDU, but in CGH, I'd wet my pants on the approach AND on the landing !

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 3):
I'd wet my pants trying to stop in SDU, but in CGH, I'd wet my pants on the approach AND on the landing !

PERFECT !

That's why since yesterday some Brazilian and Multi-national corporates forbidden their employees to use CGH as a destination or to do a simple connection.
Brazilian Government will force tomorrow a major reduction of about 100 daily flights at CGH... too late.

I use to say this at A.Net during more than two years, to more flights at CGH and too much concentration on São Paulo... and many people says that "airlines goes where the pax want".. now the pax want to go to other places and the airlines lost US$ 1 billion in market value... this is a HUGE price.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
dc10srule
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:50 am

Anyone know the largest aircraft that ever used CGH??

I personally flew in on a VASP A300 back in 1982 and I spoke to some CGH controllers who told me that periodically, TAM would ferry their A330 IN FOR MAINTENANACE. I'm curious about any other large aircraft that have operated there.

I've flown into and out of CGH a few times since 1982 and I'm wondering why these issues of poor drainage and slippery runways have only been a factor over the last 2 years or so. At least these issues weren't given so much media attention in the past as far as I recall.

Take Care!!
JA
Giggity-Giggity..!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 5):
Anyone know the largest aircraft that ever used CGH??

In the past some 767-200 also used the airport. I'm not sure about 763, but i remember an A332 landed just for exhibition
in November 27, 1998.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 4):
I use to say this at A.Net during more than two years, to more flights at CGH and too much concentration on São Paulo... and many people says that "airlines goes where the pax want".. now the pax want to go to other places and the airlines lost US$ 1 billion in market value... this is a HUGE price.

The air traffic concentration in Sao Paulo is due to the economic concentration in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

A contributing factor to the TAM accident is the systematic underinvestment in the airport infrastructure of Sao Paulo, leaving GRU half built and CGH clogged. Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need. Maybe if the money spent there had been spent at GRU we wouldn't have this tragedy.
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PPVRA
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 5):

I've flown into and out of CGH a few times since 1982 and I'm wondering why these issues of poor drainage and slippery runways have only been a factor over the last 2 years or so. At least these issues weren't given so much media attention in the past as far as I recall.

Because more recently a runway overhaul at CGH has been overdue, causing a few skiddings, but fortunately nothing tragic. The runway re-pavement just completed is to deal with that issue, but the grooving (runway drainage) has to wait sometime to be done.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FMAL
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
The air traffic concentration in Sao Paulo is due to the economic concentration in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

A contributing factor to the TAM accident is the systematic underinvestment in the airport infrastructure of Sao Paulo, leaving GRU half built and CGH clogged. Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need. Maybe if the money spent there had been spent at GRU we wouldn't have this tragedy.

Despite being from and living in Rio, I have to agree with you.

Mistakes and lack of investment from years back are all starting to show now. There has been consistent growth on Brazilian air travel for many years, but no actual investment on the infrastructure of the system and only palliative investments on new terminal buildings. More comfortable for the passenger, but the terminal could handle more passengers, the runways and patios not. Add to that a increase in air travel but a decrease in the number of aircraft, together with corroding quality of the aeronautical navigation infrastructure, lack of and also bad investments on the air space surveillance and communications, lack of investments on air traffic controllers, etc.

Its a recipe all to common in Brazil, unfortunately not restricted to aviation. A certain segment starts to develop, but eventually it stagnates, because the Government failed to make necessary investments on the infrastructure (be it transportation, education, fiscal issues, energy sector, etc) to accompany this growth and to allow the growth to continue.
 
AF086
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need.

I disagree. After the traffic change at SDU when the flights were shifted to GIG (except the RJ-SP shuttle), GIG started to really need the second terminal. GIG now handles almost 9 million pax/yr which is more than what TPS1 can cope.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
The air traffic concentration in Sao Paulo is due to the economic concentration in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

Should be another country by your words, and you have to remember that São Paulo has been built with people from other countries... and from other states ... but remember that São Paulo is 33% of Brazil, not 100%. And there's 67% of GDP outside São Paulo. Thanks the government has a different opinion now after the problems became huge.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
A contributing factor to the TAM accident is the systematic underinvestment in the airport infrastructure of Sao Paulo, leaving GRU half built and CGH clogged. Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need. Maybe if the money spent there had been spent at GRU we wouldn't have this tragedy.

Because Brazil is the only country in the world where all airlines look to the same place. I imagine if all traffic in the US goes to NYC because it's the main business center, the most X or Y what should be the situation.. people in NYC complaining that the terminal 47 is not ready...

Even with such problems and the loss of 200 lives, i can't believe you are trying to say that because of economic you need to create terminals, airports in a single area. LIS-BSB service is another success, thanks to the fact passengers want options, but 66% of international flights goes to São Paulo and less that 50% of them stays in São Paulo...

You can complain against the government. But i should say to you, complain against people that forced all the country to connect thru São Paulo.

As i use to say, if SAO does not receive connections would be 50% lower, and will remain with flights to everywhere. But some people like the idea of a GIANT system, now they have to see less flights.

Remember that 1 pax in connection counts as 2.

Hope now places like NVT, JOI, RAO and others can take advantage of another destination.

I'm not against the power of SAO, i'm against the fact that if you need to go from NAT to DFW you need to go down and fly out of GRU. It's not necessary to run a NAT-DFW flight, but it's not necessary to have 7 GRU-MIA while the entire northeast keep only 1 weekly flight.

Felipe

[Edited 2007-07-21 20:25:17]
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Because Brazil is the only country in the world where all airlines look to the same place.

Absolutely not true. I don't have to go too far (Argentina, Mexico) to see a similar situation. Why is that? Because large cities such as Sao Paulo, Mexico City and Buenos Aires dominate a large share of the economy of their countries.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Even with such problems and the loss of 200 lives, i can't believe you are trying to say that because of economic you need to create terminals, airports in a single area.

We need to create conditions for economic development and air transport infrastructure is one item. Sao Paulo was starved of resources while Rio got a terminal it does not need. In a society that embraces capitalism, we don't build terminals in places airlines do not want to fly and order them to fly there. Airlines fly to Sao Paulo because that is how they can make money and that is how they serve well the higher paying travelers that make their flights feasible. Airlines are business that either make money or close down. This is basic economics.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
LIS-BSB service is another success, thanks to the fact passengers want options, but 66% of international flights goes to São Paulo and less that 50% of them stays in São Paulo...

How do you know LIS-BSB is a success? It can only be a succes if it makes money and even TAP does not know that yet.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
I'm not against the power of SAO, i'm against the fact that if you need to go from NAT to DFW you need to go down and fly out of GRU. It's not necessary to run a NAT-DFW flight, but it's not necessary to have 7 GRU-MIA while the entire northeast keep only 1 weekly flight.

How many people want to fly from Natal to Dallas every day? It is not zero but that is pretty close to the right answer.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Should be another country by your words, and you have to remember that São Paulo has been built with people from other countries... and from other states

When it comes to entertainment, wealth, shopping & high-paying jobs nowhere in Brazil comes close. Sao Paulo may not have the beach like Rio but the shore is a short helicopter ride away.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
I imagine if all traffic in the US goes to NYC because it's the main business center,

The US has critical mass and distributed wealth to function differently. 25 years ago US airlines had a single flight from Chicago to Europe. Today there are many. Some day Brazil will have better government that will stimulate faster economic growth and Brazil will have a decentralized air travel network too. But it is impossible to force it through - airlines will come back to Sao Paulo because that is the only way to make money.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
LAXspotter
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting John (Reply 2):
Regardless, an A319 or 737-300 is still too big of an airplane to be operating from a 4400 foot runway!

They dont have problem flying out of SDU, because the routes are much shorter and its mostly business traffic. That kind of statement i would expect from the News, with the right calculations an aircraft can safely operate from 4400ft, lets not try to sensationlize something that is already blown out of proportion. IMO, the TAM crash happened for one of two reasons, the aircraft landed way beyond the landing point or the reversers were not properly working. its always easy to just say that a runway is too short, but what the vast majority of the public doesnt know is that airlines are not playing a guessing game whether they can fly into or out of the runway, its all done thru calculations. However, an RTO at SDU would be cool to watch, LOL.

Quoting DC10sRULE (Reply 5):
Anyone know the largest aircraft that ever used CGH??

The A332 from TAM.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
PPSMA
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:30 am

Quote:
DC10sRULE reply5

Anyone know the largest aircraft that ever used CGH??

Back in 1982 VASP used their A300B2-200 to fly charters to AUA via BSB and MAO. Those birds did not have the range to fly non-stop to MAO, so our passengers had to endure a 8 1/2, sometimes 9hr-flight to the Caribbean ! Later on VASP employed those same birds on charters to MCO , again wiht multiple stops enroute (because of the then existing legislation, VASP could only fly charters as only VARIG, CRUZEIRO and TRANSBRASIL had the authority to fly international - politics, my friends, politics! ).

At the same time, TR operated their B767-200 3 or 4 x a week to MCO via MAO. I remember watching them taxi onto 35R and spool up for 5/10 secs before releasing the brakes - what a thrill ! Those big birds drawed a lot of attention!

Last, but not least, I remember once a Lockheed C-141 Starlifter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-141_Starlifter) made a scary landing, with those noisy Pratt & Whitney TF33-P-7 and used up every inch of that runway to slow down !

Great times then!

Cheers,

Domenico
Aviation is my thing!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
Absolutely not true. I don't have to go too far (Argentina, Mexico) to see a similar situation. Why is that? Because large cities such as Sao Paulo, Mexico City and Buenos Aires dominate a large share of the economy of their countries.

Mexico: There are dozens of cities with services to US and Caribe and many people travel thru US hubs.
Argentina: Bs Aires is the capital and 65% of the country, also located north, is the main port and the main touristic city. Seems like Brazil ?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
Sao Paulo was starved of resources while Rio got a terminal it does not need. In a society that embraces capitalism, we don't build terminals in places airlines do not want to fly and order them to fly there.

Rio needed that terminal at that time. But political decisions took traffic from Rio at the time they move domestic flights to SDU from GIG. Without domestic service Rio begin to lost international flights to GRU, What's your point ?
In one year Brazil will lost 10 mm pax... not because people stop flying, but because they use to do connections. And the country will fly better, including São Paulo. You can't say SAO is starved of resources at time they impose a model that proved to be wrong. US$ 750 million in three days has been lost...

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
How do you know LIS-BSB is a success? It can only be a succes if it makes money and
even TAP does not know that yet.

Read the news. Advance bookings are doing very well. I think that if a flight goes bad (like AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ GRU-SCL overnight, G3 GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM) it faces reduction, plane downgrade or even be discontinued.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Should be another country by your words, and you have to remember that São Paulo has been built with people from other countries... and from other states

When it comes to entertainment, wealth, shopping & high-paying jobs nowhere in Brazil comes close. Sao Paulo may not have the beach like Rio but the shore is a short helicopter ride away.

And the winner is ? What's your point ?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
But it is impossible to force it through - airlines will come back to Sao Paulo because that is the only way to make money.

Say this to TAP, Air France, Delta and some others... they seems to be making money not only on the powerfull Sao Paulo. GRU is a place that many make money and some not... AM GRU-MEX daylight, AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ GRU-SCL overnight, G3 GRU-SCL and GRU-LIM... or even to TAM and they can explain why they need a domestic network in GRU in order to feed their international flights.

The point on this discussion is the runways of CGH and SDU, and you come with a kind of Rio vs São Paulo never end discussion. I'm sorry Incitatus, but the government decided to reduce the number of connections in São Paulo CGH. They do not prohibited any one to visit the city.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
The point on this discussion is the runways of CGH and SDU, and you come with a kind of Rio vs São Paulo never end discussion. I'm sorry Incitatus, but the government decided to reduce the number of connections in São Paulo CGH. They do not prohibited any one to visit the city.

Please go back and read your own reply #4. Indeed one of us veered off the intended topic.

When it comes to reducing connections at CGH, that is good for Sao Paulo. It will make CGH safer. It will result in a bigger domestic schedule at GRU, easing domestic-to-international connections. That will be great for all of Brazil because it will increase international travel options and convenience. That will be great for Sao Paulo because it will make it more attractive to longhaul service.
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C010T3
Posts: 1956
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

Don't make me laugh. Entrepreneurial spirit and relatively better run than many parts of the country.... Those comments don't even belong in this forum.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
Sao Paulo was starved of resources while Rio got a terminal it does not need. In a society that embraces capitalism, we don't build terminals in places airlines do not want to fly and order them to fly there. Airlines fly to Sao Paulo because that is how they can make money and that is how they serve well the higher paying travelers that make their flights feasible. Airlines are business that either make money or close down. This is basic economics.

Rio needed a second terminal before São Paulo needed a third. The plans from the eighties were absolutely right. But the fact is that it was invested, but the infra-structure was not used. That was the situation in both GIG and GRU. But the fact is that TAM started using CGH as its main hub and other airlines followed. That was wrong and should have been stopped by DAC at the time. GRU was built exactly to make it a regional airport. It was CGH the factor that stopped the investment in GRU's third terminal and not GIG. Your argument that airlines wants to fly to where the passengers want to fly to is flawed, when you take GIG in consideration. GRU would have grown much faster if it weren't for CGH. Why on earth did GRU take so long to reach its capacity? Because it only did, when CGH was way beyond capacity. GIG's is even worse in the comparison. SDU drained everything, mostly through CGH. So why CGH success? I have to say. When I look back, I can say CGH operations were only so successful, because of Rio. SDU's location is even better than CGH's and only there it was possible to combine both "economic powers" (like you say). SDU cannot handle operations to places so far away.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
When it comes to entertainment, wealth, shopping & high-paying jobs nowhere in Brazil comes close.

Very disputable and again, that does not belong here.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
When it comes to reducing connections at CGH, that is good for Sao Paulo. It will make CGH safer. It will result in a bigger domestic schedule at GRU, easing domestic-to-international connections. That will be great for all of Brazil because it will increase international travel options and convenience. That will be great for Sao Paulo because it will make it more attractive to longhaul service.

GRU will only marginally absorb CGH operations. GRU cannot handle so much extra traffic. If it does, it will be chaotic and we will have a new CGH. The only thing that should be done at GRU is to start nonstop services to destinations that are not served from there, like JOI, SLZ, RBR and many others. VCP shouldn't be forced to grow, since it is now the only airport in São Paulo that can absorb diversions. What will happen if it is congested too? Let operations at CNF and GIG grow to healthy levels again (for the respective economies) and we should all be happy. Why has São Paulo's growth always has to be in detriment of others? There enough crippled economies all over the country, because of this silly concentration. Brazil is a Federative Republic. Do not forget about that! It has never been a centralist and centralised country like France and Argentina, so back off with your Buenos Aires comparison. Let's not give in to the people that want to make our country what it is not. We are all witnesses that it is not working. Stop pretending it is.
 
incitatus
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
GRU will only marginally absorb CGH operations. GRU cannot handle so much extra traffic. If it does, it will be chaotic and we will have a new CGH.

Actually not. As is, GRU can support more traffic. Per Infraero GRU has about 160 thousand movements per year. Some airports with similar runway layout have many more. Orange County Airport, CA (SNA) for example, has two non-independent parallel runways and has about 350 thousand movements per year. SNA has all this traffic even though is has strict curfews with no ops between 11pm and 7am, which GRU does not have.

As for gate space, currently GRU has fewer than 200 regularly scheduled daily departures and 24 gates and 24 remote stands. Remember GRU has extended busy hours with arrivals from Europe starting at 4:30am and departures to the US sometimes after midnight. With a very conservative assumption of 8 departures per gate and 6 departures per remote stand GRU can handle 300 departures.

Lines do get very long sometimes but those are bottlenecks that can be solved by adding staff.

Conclusion: GRU can easily absorb an extra 100 departures per day.

I do not expect GIG, BSB or CNF to see major schedule additions if CGH is restricted.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
Why has São Paulo's growth always has to be in detriment of others?

It has never been. In particular when it comes to air traffic, Rio continues to suffer the consequences of 40 years of economic decline. According to Infraero, SDU and GIG had 4.2 million pax between January and May 2003, corresponding to 14.8% of the country. In Jan-May 2007 they handled 5.4 million pax, or 11.8% of the country.

Sao Paulo's share of traffic held steady at 32% between 2003 and 2007. It has not grown as a share of the country in the past four years. Sao Paulo did Ok, Rio did badly, the rest of the country did very well.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
Neo
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
The air traffic concentration in Sao Paulo is due to the economic concentration in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

Hahaha.. Please.. what world are living in? Air traffic is concentrated in SP just because the airlines and DAC want it to be so. They have all through the last decade created the monster SAO is today, as it was too convinient to just add more flights and channel all traffic through CGH and GRU, despite the unadequate conditions.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need. Maybe if the money spent there had been spent at GRU we wouldn't have this tragedy.

Are you saying GIG does not need Terminal 2? It is hetic today in the busiest hours, I can't imagine how tragedy it would be without it.

Rgs,

Neo
 
incitatus
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Neo (Reply 19):
Air traffic is concentrated in SP just because the airlines and DAC want it to be so.

Air traffic is concentrated in Sao Paulo because that is how airlines make the most profit. Sao Paulo has the greatest share of traffic and the greatest share of high paying traffic. It is easy to resort to non-economic arguments (the DAC wants it.... really?) or try to make the airlines look capricious, but these arguments are hollow.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
dellatorre
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:01 am

OK. Here we go again. The SP vs Rio dispute always get a little carried away in this Forum....

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
The air traffic concentration in Sao Paulo is due to the economic concentration in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

A contributing factor to the TAM accident is the systematic underinvestment in the airport infrastructure of Sao Paulo, leaving GRU half built and CGH clogged. Meanwhile Rio airport GIG has a terminal it does not need. Maybe if the money spent there had been spent at GRU we wouldn't have this tragedy.

I have to disagree with you in some parts here. Firstly, São Paulo is not better run than any other parts of the Country. Mainly Southern States in Brazil and even in Centro Oeste region are just as good or even better run than SP. I don't think that gives it an advantage in the economic aspect.

Anyways, on the other hand, you are correct when saying that São Paulo has been put aside regarding investments in airport infrastructure. IF we compare any other city in the world that ranks in the class of São Paulo, we can say the Brazilian city lacks in many areas, specially in transportation in general.

Guarulhos Airport is a joke when compare to others in Europe, North America, Asia & even in Brazil. The airport was badly planned & developed, consistent fog limit the airport operational capacity. The Terminals weren't properly conceived, an viable link to the city's transport system basically is non-existant, many buildings and houses (mostly favelas) are already surrounding the airport, and son on...

Looking at recent airport developments in Asia, makes me wonder what is up with IFRAERO???? Regardless of how much more traffic SAO PAULO could handle, IMHO, it's still remains and will be the gateway to Brazil. Thus for, it deserves a modern airport that can live up to Brazil's aspirations... The media is given all the attention to CGH right now, for the obvious reasons, but they are also forgetting about GRU., which is far from being a decent airport. GIG T2 is way beyond it. Unfortunately, Rio is not as attractive to airlines as São Paulo.

INFRAERO's power needs to be weakened urgently, and administration of Brazilian main airports given to private investors which could run them as or more profitable than INFRAERO, and most importantly, without corruption, money deviations and proper investments.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
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RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 21):

I have to disagree with you in some parts here. Firstly, São Paulo is not better run than any other parts of the Country. Mainly Southern States in Brazil and even in Centro Oeste region are just as good or even better run than SP. I don't think that gives it an advantage in the economic aspect.

Anyways, on the other hand, you are correct when saying that São Paulo has been put aside regarding investments in airport infrastructure. IF we compare any other city in the world that ranks in the class of São Paulo, we can say the Brazilian city lacks in many areas, specially in transportation in general.

Guarulhos Airport is a joke when compare to others in Europe, North America, Asia & even in Brazil. The airport was badly planned & developed, consistent fog limit the airport operational capacity. The Terminals weren't properly conceived, an viable link to the city's transport system basically is non-existant, many buildings and houses (mostly favelas) are already surrounding the airport, and son on...

Looking at recent airport developments in Asia, makes me wonder what is up with IFRAERO???? Regardless of how much more traffic SAO PAULO could handle, IMHO, it's still remains and will be the gateway to Brazil. Thus for, it deserves a modern airport that can live up to Brazil's aspirations... The media is given all the attention to CGH right now, for the obvious reasons, but they are also forgetting about GRU., which is far from being a decent airport. GIG T2 is way beyond it. Unfortunately, Rio is not as attractive to airlines as São Paulo.

INFRAERO's power needs to be weakened urgently, and administration of Brazilian main airports given to private investors which could run them as or more profitable than INFRAERO, and most importantly, without corruption, money deviations and proper investments.

Thank you! And welcome to my RR list!
 
dellatorre
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
Air traffic is concentrated in Sao Paulo because that is how airlines make the most profit. Sao Paulo has the greatest share of traffic and the greatest share of high paying traffic.

No it is not!! It is the easiest way for the airlines to make the most profit.. but far from the only one. There is where INFRAERO, DAC or whatever regulating agency should have came in, and effectively limited the number of flights to SAO. This would force the airlines to put a little effort, think out the box (SP) and create new routes, hubs to estimulate air traffic in other regions, preventing the current chaos at CGH and GRU.

Why are there no non-stop, POA-SSA, POA-REC, CWB-SSA, POA-CNF, CWB-CNF? No traffic.. WRONG!!! Look at the connections...without it SAO wouldn't be half of what it is. No will to invest and develop alternative traffic distribuition corridors...MOST LIKELY.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
It is easy to resort to non-economic arguments (the DAC wants it.... really?) or try to make the airlines look capricious, but these arguments are hollow.

Really?..Let's see...

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
Sao Paulo has more economic prowess and more entrepreneurial spirit and is relatively better run than many parts of the country including Rio.

It is kind of hard to beat that!!!

Rgs,

Neo
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 23):
here is where INFRAERO, DAC or whatever regulating agency should have came in, and effectively limited the number of flights to SAO.

With all due respect, the answer is not more government control. It's no government control of the industry at all. The answer is open skies; domestic and international open skies. TAM and GOL are some of the best run airlines in the world, they can compete with anyone.

I refuse to enter the parallel debate.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 7):
A contributing factor to the TAM accident is the systematic underinvestment in the airport infrastructure of Sao Paulo, leaving GRU half built and CGH clogged

100% correct, there is no doubt that the underlying factor of Brazil's aviation crisis is the complete neglect of Sao Paulo's airport infra-structure representing years of under-investment.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
Conclusion: GRU can easily absorb an extra 100 departures per day.

I do not expect GIG, BSB or CNF to see major schedule additions if CGH is restricted.

I could not agree more with you. I am sure that flights will move mainly to GRU which will absorb the lion's share of CGH flight cancelations. In addition, with more flights in GRU, the airport will become even more attractive for airlines because of enhanced domestic connections.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
It has never been. In particular when it comes to air traffic, Rio continues to suffer the consequences of 40 years of economic decline. According to Infraero, SDU and GIG had 4.2 million pax between January and May 2003, corresponding to 14.8% of the country. In Jan-May 2007 they handled 5.4 million pax, or 11.8% of the country.

Sao Paulo's share of traffic held steady at 32% between 2003 and 2007. It has not grown as a share of the country in the past four years. Sao Paulo did Ok, Rio did badly, the rest of the country did very well.

Thanks for the interesting and very well informed data.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
Air traffic is concentrated in Sao Paulo because that is how airlines make the most profit. Sao Paulo has the greatest share of traffic and the greatest share of high paying traffic. It is easy to resort to non-economic arguments (the DAC wants it.... really?) or try to make the airlines look capricious, but these arguments are hollow.

Traffic is in Sao Paulo because airlines make money more there; GRU is certainly one of the world's best performing airports, especially high-yielding O&D makes Sao Paulo very attractive.

Rgs,
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
With all due respect, the answer is not more government control. It's no government control of the industry at all. The answer is open skies; domestic and international open skies. TAM and GOL are some of the best run airlines in the world, they can compete with anyone.

I refuse to enter the parallel debate.

I think you're confusing things. When there is no capacity in either CGH and GRU, new flights should be prohibited. It may sound unjust, but São Paulo's government should have pressured Infraero before it got to this. Now it's too late. Flight restrictions should come to immediate effect.
 
vbeltraJJ
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:13 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):

As our friend said in the post I quoted, our main airlines can compete with others in the world with a correct development of a open skies politics. Brazil is huge and has lots of places where airlines can make money also. As we can see nowadays, there so many companies that are moving their headquarters or main facilities to northeast that we should develop a hub for international flights in that region. Despite that, we see that the south of the country has also great acquisitive power so that we could think about adding some international flights arriving and departing from there. So, enough about Rio x São Paulo issue and let´s think about some "solutions" for a country called Brazil.

Cheers
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 27):
As our friend said in the post I quoted, our main airlines can compete with others in the world with a correct development of a open skies politics. Brazil is huge and has lots of places where airlines can make money also. As we can see nowadays, there so many companies that are moving their headquarters or main facilities to northeast that we should develop a hub for international flights in that region. Despite that, we see that the south of the country has also great acquisitive power so that we could think about adding some international flights arriving and departing from there. So, enough about Rio x São Paulo issue and let´s think about some "solutions" for a country called Brazil.

Cheers

Amen!
 
John
Topic Author
Posts: 1257
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 1999 10:47 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:16 pm

hmmm....This thread really did take on a life of it's own, didn't it?  Confused
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting John (Reply 29):
hmmm....This thread really did take on a life of it's own, didn't it?

I'm sorry, but it's hard, even with such kind of accident to people realize that one country with almost 200 million people can't rely on a single area. Now delays, delays. And there's people that still says that because of economic power, even without available land or immediate resources they need to fill one airport just because it's important to say that Brazil has a big airport.... during 10 years they put all people travelling from south to north to make a stop in a single city, and now complain against the others... my god!
I use to fly NYC-RIO every month, and since may i begin to fly thru ATL on the way to Rio. I'm happy now.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
Posts: 3379
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 26):
I think you're confusing things. When there is no capacity in either CGH and GRU, new flights should be prohibited.

The confusion lies in the fact that there is plenty of capacity at GRU.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 23):
Why are there no non-stop, POA-SSA, POA-REC, CWB-SSA, POA-CNF, CWB-CNF? No traffic.. WRONG!!! Look at the connections...without it SAO wouldn't be half of what it is. No will to invest and develop alternative traffic distribuition corridors...MOST LIKELY.

Notice for example POA-BSB exists and has existed for many years. Same for CWB-BSB.

There might be not enough traffic for the bypass flights you mentioned. One cannot count the number of passengers per day in a market and assume all passengers would choose a nonstop flight if it were available. Passengers have airline preference and time of day preference. Even if 200 people a day want to go POA-CNF it does not mean a 737 will do well. That flight may only draw 60 or 70 passengers of the total market. Maybe - just maybe - something like EZE-POA-SSA-REC could be sustainable in the Brazilian summer. But then the attractiveness of the EZE-SSA market may just nullify the need to stop in POA.

In regards to my comment about Sao Paulo's entrepreneurial spirit and economic prowess, it is in the statistics. What would you like to attribute Sao Paulo's success compared to the rest of Brazil? Specially when compared to Rio, which used to be #1? I deal with people's performance emotions on a daily basis and it is human nature to attribute other people's success to luck, dishonesty or negating factors as opposed to plain hard work. The truth is airlines want to fly to Sao Paulo because lots of offices of large companies are there - not only in the capital but in Sao Jose dos Campos, Campinas, Sorocaba and other cities in the vicinity. Those offices are not in Natal. Why is this truth so painful? I've refrained from replying to the teasers on my comment in reply 7, but maybe we should go to non-av and create a thread on the reasons for Sao Paulo's larger share of the economy and consequentently of air service. It will be an enjoyable discussion since I've only actually lived in Sao Paulo briefly and spent my life declining offers to work there.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
The confusion lies in the fact that there is plenty of capacity at GRU.

Is there, really? GRU handled 15.759.181 passengers last year. Do you know GRU's capacity? Do you know the passengers projection for the current year?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):

Notice for example POA-BSB exists and has existed for many years. Same for CWB-BSB.

Who mentioned BSB???

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
In regards to my comment about Sao Paulo's entrepreneurial spirit and economic prowess, it is in the statistics. What would you like to attribute Sao Paulo's success compared to the rest of Brazil? Specially when compared to Rio, which used to be #1? I deal with people's performance emotions on a daily basis and it is human nature to attribute other people's success to luck, dishonesty or negating factors as opposed to plain hard work. The truth is airlines want to fly to Sao Paulo because lots of offices of large companies are there - not only in the capital but in Sao Jose dos Campos, Campinas, Sorocaba and other cities in the vicinity. Those offices are not in Natal. Why is this truth so painful? I've refrained from replying to the teasers on my comment in reply 7, but maybe we should go to non-av and create a thread on the reasons for Sao Paulo's larger share of the economy and consequentently of air service. It will be an enjoyable discussion since I've only actually lived in Sao Paulo briefly and spent my life declining offers to work there.

São Paulo is truly the land of opportunity. I going to move there right away. Real estate must be a real bargain around CGH these days. I going to make a fortune!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
Notice for example POA-BSB exists and has existed for many years. Same for CWB-BSB.

Two daily flights ?!? It's for sure an alternative, but takes care of POA-BSB demand only. One POA-BSB in fact it's a leg on BSB-POA-EZE flight.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 31):
The truth is airlines want to fly to Sao Paulo because lots of offices of large companies are there - not only in the capital but in Sao Jose dos Campos, Campinas, Sorocaba and other cities in the vicinity

So build airports closer to them ! Prepare SJK (in fact it's funny that G3 will run GIG-SJK probably because Embraer shareholders are 55% from a closer state.. ), improve VCP, and prepare Sorocaba and other airports. As you state that São Paulo is a world class city, should use better world class examples.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:43 am

ANAC's president just stated live on national television that GRU does not have the capacity to absorb CGH's traffic!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 34):
ANAC's president just stated live on national television that GRU does not have the capacity to absorb CGH's traffic!

But probably we have people that believe that a second floor can be added to runways and terminals in one month.

I'm sorry but i feel pain for those who need to use GRU in the near future. Be ready for a nightmare. And as mostly flights will be delayed, situation on other airports will be even bad also. Brazil will lost investment, congress, seminars, events... JOBS!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
But probably we have people that believe that a second floor can be added to runways and terminals in one month.

I'm sorry but i feel pain for those who need to use GRU in the near future. Be ready for a nightmare. And as mostly flights will be delayed, situation on other airports will be even bad also. Brazil will lost investment, congress, seminars, events... JOBS!

Felipe

Indeed! We have to fight now for GIG's order. The completion of T2 must start right away, so that there is space for the much needed renovation of T1, not to mention the fact that GIG will become G3's main hub.
 
User avatar
TR763
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:07 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
Indeed! We have to fight now for GIG's order.

This has really become a SP x Rio right!!!!
Come on guys, you are forgetting about lots of other cities that have the potential to be good hubs!
REC, SSA, MAO.... The CO/N/NE airports should have a more careful look from the airlines - due to the distance, these people are the most affected by having to connect in the southeast to go everywhere else, in my point of view.

We have to fight to put an order in this mess that our country is C010T3!! And not only for a city or an airport!!
I´m really sorry, you criticise the ones that are only pro-SP (which are very wrong), but you are doing the same with this statement!
Or I just misunderstood what you tried to say, but I don´t think it´s the case.

No one here said about the conditions of SDU runway, if it is as poor maintained as the ones in CGH, or whatever related to the main purpose of the topic. And I´m not the most adequate person to talk about it, so, if someone has these answers, please give them, even in respect to John, the thread starter!

Rgs!
TR763
Image
Picture by Justin Cederholm at MCO.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting TR763 (Reply 37):
Come on guys, you are forgetting about lots of other cities that have the potential to be good hubs!
REC, SSA, MAO.... The CO/N/NE airports should have a more careful look from the airlines - due to the distance, these people are the most affected by having to connect in the southeast to go everywhere else, in my point of view.

Agree Hoanes, and this is my point also.
I never asked just for one city, i always advocate about not to concentrate on a single city, neither talk that another is a solution, here or at Contato Radar.

But although the problem, we know the solution isn't easy, but they come with historical details or economic comparison. Strong or not, the fact is that there is no airport and won't be during 5 years. A Solution need to be find out and the obvious one is that if Brazil want to grow, need to be in other directions.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting TR763 (Reply 37):
We have to fight to put an order in this mess that our country is C010T3!! And not only for a city or an airport!!
I´m really sorry, you criticise the ones that are only pro-SP (which are very wrong), but you are doing the same with this statement!
Or I just misunderstood what you tried to say, but I don´t think it´s the case.

What? You totally misunderstood me. I was just reinforcing the fact that people like me and Lipe, who really care about GIG, will have now to fight in order to keep GIG a pleasant airport. That includes writing letters and e-mails to Infraero, ANAC, State Government and uncoutable ministries, so that things get done at GIG. Not because we have physical space, it means that everything is shining and new for the passengers to come. GIG will probably be the airport with the most instant growth in the whole process (if ANAC does its job to limit GRU's growth in its capacity), so we must watch was is being done there in order to prove that the changes are for the best. I have to quote FOE's slogan for this case, "Think Globally, Act Locally". We can use "nationally" instead of "globally" in our case. It is imperative that people understand that just because SAO is in desperate need of a terminal, that others should be neglected. Actually, I see BSB in an even worse position than SAO. Everything I was trying to say was that the passengers that are going to be welcomed to connect at GIG should find the best conditions possible and that does not include the current problems GIG is facing, like reduced Federal Police staff, food court monopoly, T2 half incompleted, T1 parts deactivated, T1's molding walls, T1's and T2's leaking ceiling and so on. We don't the situation here to become chaotic.
 
incitatus
Posts: 3379
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 32):
Is there, really? GRU handled 15.759.181 passengers last year. Do you know GRU's capacity? Do you know the passengers projection for the current year?

Please go back to reply #18. GRU's runways are underutilized. So are its gates. The capacity problems that GRU has show up only at the peak hours with late night international departures.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 34):
ANAC's president just stated live on national television that GRU does not have the capacity to absorb CGH's traffic!

If you feel ANAC's president is a reliable source of information, go ahead and believe it.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 36):
Indeed! We have to fight now for GIG's order.

This carioca "bairrismo" is even funny. Air service follows the economy, not the other way around. The way to get more air service at GIG is not to force airlines to serve it. It is to have an economic environment that is conducive to business. It is to have tourist attractions that are can be visited with adequate public safety. It is to have a large middle class that has not moved to Miami yet. Rio is left wanting on all of those currently. The potential for Rio as a tourist/congress destination is enormous. It is yet to be realized though.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 39):
We can use "nationally" instead of "globally" in our case. It is imperative that people understand that just because SAO is in desperate need of a terminal, that others should be neglected.

That comes across as "think locally" because the driving force behind your case and Felipe's is to benefit Rio. The relative difference for the rest of country between connecting at GRU or GIG is nil.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
Please go back to reply #18. GRU's runways are underutilized. So are its gates. The capacity problems that GRU has show up only at the peak hours with late night international departures.

You should spend a whole day at GRU for a change.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
That comes across as "think locally" because the driving force behind your case and Felipe's is to benefit Rio. The relative difference for the rest of country between connecting at GRU or GIG is nil.

Be my guest and connect through GRU.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
If you feel ANAC's president is a reliable source of information, go ahead and believe it.

Well, if you think you are good source of information, then you should try to help the government. Why don't you write them about your cause? I'm sure they will be amused with your attempt to convince them to make GRU's traffic increase beyond 20 million passengers per year, when its capacity is only 16,5 million. People will be surprised to know that GIG's capacity is 15 million passengers per year, while only 9 million came thorough its gates last year.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
This carioca "bairrismo" is even funny. Air service follows the economy, not the other way around. The way to get more air service at GIG is not to force airlines to serve it. It is to have an economic environment that is conducive to business. It is to have tourist attractions that are can be visited with adequate public safety. It is to have a large middle class that has not moved to Miami yet. Rio is left wanting on all of those currently. The potential for Rio as a tourist/congress destination is enormous. It is yet to be realized though.

You are funny. Have you tried stand-up comedy?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 39):
really care about GIG, will have now to fight in order to keep GIG a pleasant airport. That includes writing letters and e-mails to Infraero, ANAC, State Government and uncoutable ministries, so that things get done at GIG. Not because we have physical space, it means that everything is shining and new for the passengers to come.

You're right, GIG might turn into a GRU in the future.

That said, Infraero and the government have no choice but to invest in GRU right now, and heavily, too, to undo everything that they decided not to do in the past in detriment of that airport. And that will cost Infraero money they don't have, and there will be little to no funding available except for absolute necessities to airports elsewhere.

You care about GIG, I care about GRU too.

[Edited 2007-07-25 20:38:20]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 40):
That comes across as "think locally" because the driving force behind your case and Felipe's is to benefit Rio

Sorry but i think you get me wrong. My focus is against the excess focus on São Paulo. END of discussion. If you don't agree, no problem. And it's funny "driving force behind...to benefit Rio", seems i'm ANAC Director or TAM/GOL high staff.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
That said, Infraero and the government have no choice but to invest in GRU right now, and heavily, too, to undo everything that they decided not to do in the past in detriment of that airport. And that will cost Infraero money they don't have, and there will be little to no funding available except for absolute necessities to airports elsewhere.

No question about it! That's why i think Infraero should invest the money they do have in GIG, VCP and CNF for immediate necessities. I am not talking about expansion. Please, don't get me wrong. The money for GRU should come directly from the Treasury.
 
dellatorre
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:44 am

On thing I gotta say about this whole Airport capacity talk. VARIG!! VARIG!!! VARIG!!!

It's unacceptable that this shrunk airline keeps it's check in counters and terminal facilities empty when all of the other ones could be utilizing this space for better accomodation ad handling of their pax, specially right now, under this chaos.

For instance, GOL, and most importantly, their pax are stuck with old and crappy T1 in GIG, while RG keeps all those facilities to themselves in T2. The same goes on in GRU, with RG taking the majority in T2.

Not to mention the phantom facilities and skeleton aircrafts that belong to VP and TR.

Anyways, gotta love those TV show hosts and reporters coming up with all sorts of probabilities and resons for the accident. Watch out TAM, otherwise the world awarded A320 is going to become the next F100.... Cant u guys feel it coming??? Just today, the press reported one incident with one of JJ's A320 that had a part (gauge lead I guess) from the fuselage of the right engine that came off during it's flight and had to land in Londrina for unschedule maintenance... Another one was going to take off when an warning light showed up in the panel and the pilot decided to abort the take off.
All os those incidents, that happen every day with any sort of airline, are being put as something life threatning!!

Before this whole crisis, the media didn't give a damn about those incidents, but now they've blown it out of proportion...

Sometimes is impossible not to laugh at such "accusations".
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

RE: CGH Vs SDU (runway Lengths)

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 45):
On thing I gotta say about this whole Airport capacity talk. VARIG!! VARIG!!! VARIG!!!

It's unacceptable that this shrunk airline keeps it's check in counters and terminal facilities empty when all of the other ones could be utilizing this space for better accomodation ad handling of their pax, specially right now, under this chaos.

For instance, GOL, and most importantly, their pax are stuck with old and crappy T1 in GIG, while RG keeps all those facilities to themselves in T2. The same goes on in GRU, with RG taking the majority in T2.

The thing with the counters are actually CADE's problem. They are the one's blocking the whole thing. If they approve the acquisition, I guess RG will have the freedom to pass them to G3. Before that, they must keep the operations separate in case the acquisition is not approved. CADE should be pressured to approve the acquisition right away, because that is blocking RG-G3 integration, which could ultimately reduce the network problems.

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