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donzilasse
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:18 am

Lipe,

A MIA to CNF would be great for me however in the big picture I believe that a country of the size of Brasil probably will need 3 or 4 major hub cities. It is kind of rediculous to here the old story about only the Sao Paulo area and I truly believe that it is not a serious argument rather a competitive fight between Paulistas and others.

Lasse
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 50):
Lipe,

A MIA to CNF would be great

I couldn't agree more! I just mentioned in Contato Radar how I expect JJ to do that. Since new international flights to GRU are prohibited, I believe JJ will reduce GRU-MIA frequencies in order to run GRU-MAD and GRU-FRA flights. CNF-MIA and GIG-MIA would be created to replace previous GRU-MIA frequencies.
 
md94
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting GECMD11 (Reply 45):
can VCP be utlized ?

Exactly my question and/or point. VCP is only a little over an hour away from Sao Paulo, so why don't they use it more? Good highways all of the way in with easy access from the airport. The only problem would be the traffic, but that is bad all over Sao Paulo.
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
EDICHC
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 4):
My opinion is this is a knee jerk reaction, the runway lengh at CGH is not unheard of or extremely dangerous, all the airport needs is some improvements, like grooving and breakable concrete in overrun areas and the airport would be perfectly safe for most operations.

Perhaps these are the only improvements required, but until they are in place i would not call it a knee jerk reaction. I would call it prudence based upon hindsight.
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s.p.a.s.
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:58 pm

Just a small correction JJMNGR,

The Pantantal ATR did not skid off the runway at the end. It was landing on 17R and lost the centreline more or less close to the CGH VOR installation (close to taxiway C). Hardly at the end of the runway. And I was at my office (located at the airport) and saw it happening. So, I understand you frustration and anger, but let's keep to the facts.

Cheers

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
PPSMA
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:24 pm

Richard (JJMGR),

I would also like to welcome you back to the forum and say that I share your sadness for the loss of friends and co-workers and your anger with our corrupt politicians.

You and the whole TAM family can count on my support and my prays!

Um abraço,

Domenico (PPSMA)
Aviation is my thing!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Md94 (Reply 52):
Exactly my question and/or point. VCP is only a little over an hour away from Sao Paulo, so why don't they use it more? Good highways all of the way in with easy access from the airport. The only problem would be the traffic, but that is bad all over Sao Paulo.

As i comment, VCP can handle no more than 2 million people/year and the problem is that, you need to develop a lot more in terms of flights. TAM and GOL each one runs about 10 daily flights there, mostly to BSB, CWB, CNF and GIG. And as you said, it's far from São Paulo, on peak hours could be a 2h30 trip to downtown or South zone areas. Could work fine on weekends or off-peak, but could be a problem on peak hours. And if you know it's the only flight, as a leisure traveller you can leave earlier, but imagine a business traveller with meetings.

The short-term solution, and sole solution, is to handle the connections outside São Paulo. It could allow at least more comfort for those looking for São Paulo as O&D.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
JJMNGR
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting S.P.A.S. (Reply 54):
So, I understand you frustration and anger, but let's keep to the facts.

Pls allow me to correct something. I am not frustrated. Anger I agree.
There is no difference where Pantanal ATR lost the centerline. Fact is that it did and was due to wet runway. This is the fact.

Rgds,
 
MarioSPlane
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 56):
And as you said, it's far from São Paulo, on peak hours could be a 2h30 trip to downtown or South zone areas. Could work fine on weekends or off-peak, but could be a problem on peak hours. And if you know it's the only flight, as a leisure traveller you can leave earlier, but imagine a business traveller with meetings.

The short-term solution, and sole solution, is to handle the connections outside São Paulo. It could allow at least more comfort for those looking for São Paulo as O&D.

You´re absolutely right. Only people that don´t live here in Sao Paulo can think that VCP is an option for us. And you´ve been warning about the need to handle connections outside Sao Paulo for quite a long time.


JJMNGR, I´m glad you´re safe and I hope you can find peace soon.........
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 58):
You´re absolutely right. Only people that don´t live here in Sao Paulo can think that VCP is an option for us

Re VCP, On Googlemapls, what looks like a railroad track very close to VPC, is actually a railroad track? If VCP had a fast reliable rail link to Paulista or Brooklin areas, then VPC could be considered an option for Sâo Paulo.
BTW, I travel to Sâo Paulo a couple of times per year and I've experience traffic overthere.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MarioSPlane
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 59):
If VCP had a fast reliable rail link to Paulista or Brooklin areas, then VPC could be considered an option for Sâo Paulo.

Yes, it certainly could. The only problem is that brazilian authorities don´t know the meaning of 'fast' and 'reliable'. A rail link to Paulista or Berrini areas would imply intersection with the underground system. It would be great, but a venture like that demands a lot of time, money and another two terms which most brazilian authorities are incapable of understanding : planning and competence.

Without a link like this, VCP is two and a half hours (and a not so friendly cab fare) away from Sao Paulo.

About the track you saw, it might be a railroad. The whole Sao Paulo state is full of railroads, but most of them are outdated and innoperative.

Regards
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:01 am

Since the good the discussion that was being held in the new thread I had opened was deleted, I have to repost it.

The chaos at GRU yesterday morning was mostly TAM's, but it has evolved and we can now not differentiate anymore.
I have news from today morning:

GOL's flights out of GRU are fully booked until July 30th, so they don't need to stop bookings of flights to/from GRU as well.

TAM voluntarily suspended bookings of flights to/from GRU until the situation is normalized.

The ceiling of the arrival level has collapsed at VCP. Fortunately there are no injured.

Passengers at VCP are facing problems due to lack of flight handling equipment, which delays flights even more.

BA's flight 247 (LHR-GRU-GIG) couldn't land at GRU and had to divert to GIG. When it was tried to proceed flight to GRU, the flight had to divert to GIG once more due to bad weather conditions. Fortunately the flight could be completed and the 744 has just landed at GIG for the third time today.

CGH is still almost empty and is ironically the only airport not in chaos in São Paulo. The main runway is still closed. The grooving couldn't be started today due to rain. Actually the bad weather is making the authorities open and close the airport every other hour.
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:03 am

RAO is also closed since yesterday evening, because the runway was struck by lightning.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 59):
Re VCP, On Googlemapls, what looks like a railroad track very close to VPC, is actually a railroad track? If VCP had a fast reliable rail link to Paulista or Brooklin areas, then VPC could be considered an option for Sâo Paulo

It couldn't and i will tell you why !

About 8 years ago people try to resume the train service between Rio and São Paulo. At that time MRS Logistica (M means Minas, R means Rio, S means São Paulo, the three states where it runs business as the railroad main logistic network). As lines in Brazil as commented by Mario on reply#60 are outdated, cargo (where the money is on rail roads nowadays in Brazil) got priority over the passenger trains.
Considering São Paulo Metro Area, the subway service and the state railroad services are not compatible. To go to Paulista you need to take two lines, and on peak hours i doubt you can do this with a bag on some stations.

Another example, Bandeirantes Expressway (connects Campinas and São Paulo) was planned to keep a track in the middle of the road in order to allow an express train service in the future. Because of the huge traffic, the corporate that runs the road decided (and get the approval) to add an additional lane to the road... and guess what... on the space that should receive the railroad (off course, they gonna receive a fee from the railroad, but it's even less than the toll collected from cars and trucks, one of the most expensive in the world!).. now a US$ 2 billion project become a nightmare of several billions as it need additional space, bridges, tunnels... and 5 to 10 years.

To see how railroads are undeveloped, yesterday Rio government gives their ok to introduce a fast-train service between Rio and São Paulo. The bid is expected for 2008 and the first train will leave both Rio and São Paulo... by 2014.

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 58):
And you´ve been warning about the need to handle connections outside Sao Paulo for quite a long time.

And many people said i'm biased... Probably they realize how biased are their, and not mine, ideas only now. But i really like that Rio receive services just because of the hole it can do to the entire domestic system, not because it's impossible to handle them in São Paulo and in a sad situation like this (JJ3054).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 32):
That was incredible that he said that. He doesn't realize he offended the nation? I spent the last 3 years working in Angola and Nigeria. My wife was pissed when I compared to Brasil to Africa, now she understands my perspective. And she remembers all of the flights in Nigeria I took on companias that crashed for safety reasons.

Actually, its a she. Her credentials to be Minister of Tourism is nothing more than being a high profile PT (party in power now) politician without a job (since she lost the SP mayor elections). After this comment, she stopped using regular flights and now flies only on private planes, paid by me, LipeGIG, JJMNGR, PPSMA, and anybody you see on this forum with a Brazilian flag. This was for her personal safety after the "relaxa e goza" spectacle.

My feelings: Didn't she make the pathetic statement? So why does she need to be spared from the consequences of her stupidity, and through the use of my tax money?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 35):
Very true. And it's also my point, lack of someone giving ORDERS. But imagine, ANAC (Our Aviation Agency) is managed by someone without expertise on the commercial aviation and as directors keep people connected (with interests) on TAM, GOL.... How to do changes can be made if the agency doesn't perform it's duties... how to change if Infraero instead of looking for good examples like SCL, prefer to use their "own" know-how. How to perform a good job if the government use contingency methods to not invest in radars, voice frequencies and others for the ATC. How to fly if we can't comply to the same government that fail on it's mission to organize the Brazilian Aviation ?

I pray for all Brazilians that on a daily basis need to fly... and now i'm sure, we're amateurs trying to become professionals just because we believe we are a huge country.

Felipe

On our criticism of this government, here at A.net, we are focusing on the aviation debacle that its inefficiency has caused. Should we go into other aspects of the government, we will be going on forever here.

But yes, how to trust the measures of a agency that can not cope with its task of regulating Brazilian Aviation if the people in charge of said agency have absolutely no idea of what the difference between a A320 or a A380? How to trust the willingness of a government to make positive changes if the president is absent, and seeks out to spare his affiliates or, as I like to call them, goons, at all costs, despite the flagrant examples of incompetence?

That's why I'm so angry. Brazil is such a great and rich country, but we let it go to waste in the hands of these corrupt bureaucrats that seek nothing else but personal wealth.
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting FMAL (Reply 64):
Brazil is such a great and rich country, but we let it go to waste in the hands of these corrupt bureaucrats that seek nothing else but personal wealth.

I think you should generalize and also have written Latinamerica. as the examples of government competence at those levels are very few.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FMAL
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 65):
I think you should generalize and also have written Latinamerica. as the examples of government competence at those levels are very few.

You have a point, look at Chavez, Morales, etc....
 
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donzilasse
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:54 am

FMAL

You said:
That's why I'm so angry. Brazil is such a great and rich country, but we let it go to waste in the hands of these corrupt bureaucrats that seek nothing else but personal wealth.


This was so right ! Brazil is a fantastic and great country with so many smart and nice people. All Brazilians deserves better than to have a bunch of corrupt and stupid people to disorganize their infrastructure. Lets at least hope that the victims of both the Gol and the TAM crash at least can accomplish that Lula and the rest of his goverment decides to make a change.

Lasse
 
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SAOAP
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:44 am

Hi folks,

I've been looking at the some recent threads and here are some of my thoughts...

São Paulo vs Rio: sorry, this is starting to get ridiculous. You can't simply transfer a flight which starts in São Paulo to Rio!!! Besides, if TAM, Gol, Ocean Air and Varig (i.e. all carriers!!!) choose to build their hub in São Paulo, not Rio, I'm sure there's a reason for it... If the majority of the foreign carriers also choose to fly to São Paulo as well, I’m sure there's also a reason for that! Yes, São Paulo has problems, but, let's face it, São Paulo is and will continue to be Brazil's financial center. I, and a whole lot of other people, don't see that changing anytime soon.

Considering the second issue, building VCP into one of São Paulo's main airports: it's already been said by some people around here; only someone who doesn't live/knows São Paulo can claim such an absurd idea. Campinas has a catchment area of it's own. Besides, there's plenty of space around GRU for a major new terminal to be built. The authorities just don’t see it (or want to).

Sorry for the outburst, I just don't want this to turn into another Rio vs. São Paulo thread. At the moment the business is in São Paulo. That won't change anytime soon and it's a fact. Rio can be built into a secondary hub (as much as MUC has been in Germany, it won't however replace GRU - or FRA for that matter) as it has been done for quite some time now. They are there to complement each other.

Cheers!

Marcelo
"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 67):
This was so right ! Brazil is a fantastic and great country with so many smart and nice people. All Brazilians deserves better than to have a bunch of corrupt and stupid people to disorganize their infrastructure. Lets at least hope that the victims of both the Gol and the TAM crash at least can accomplish that Lula and the rest of his goverment decides to make a change

Lets pray for a better future !

At least we still can pray and hope that Brazilians choose better the President in the future.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 68):
Considering the second issue, building VCP into one of São Paulo's main airports: it's already been said by some people around here; only someone who doesn't live/knows São Paulo can claim such an absurd idea. Campinas has a catchment area of it's own.

Just to experience the traffic jams from Sampa to VCP, at what time I should be on that road to see it by myself. I've seen bad traffic in Sampa and I've seen how many people actually fly helicopters from one place to another to avoid traffic. If Infraero builds up VCP, those who travel by helicopter won't mind, it's the rest of the people that will suffer.
In Europe there are airports like Hanh which advertise itself as FRA alternate (100Km away), given reliable road and rail (I must be dreaming here, but Brazilians should dream how they want their Sao Paulo to be) VCP could be an option for Sampa, not the local Campinas airport.
If Sampa airports are such a mess, better have 3 bearable small airport problems (CGH, GRU and VCP) than a huge GRU headache.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
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SAOAP
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 70):

3 airports for São Paulo are not an option. Considering that the traffic could be spread among CGH and GRU (given that GRU will also be expanded as it should with a new terminal - right now there is no need for a new runway, contrary to what many believe; a new terminal is THE issue at hand). VCP not an option either. Imagine trying to get there on a business day to catch an international flights to Europe or the States... You already loose half your day trying to reach GRU, imagine VCP... Not an option.

Besides, has anyone though what three airports would do the airliners??? Connections would be a mess... I will say it again: CGH is still a valid option. The airport needs a decent infra-structure, that's all.

Cheers!

Marcelo
"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 71):
You already loose half your day trying to reach GRU, imagine VCP... Not an option.

That is an over dramatization... At the most the drive from downtown Sao Paulo to Campinas is 2hrs 30 minutes in traffic. Hardly the 12 hours that you are referring to above... Funny also that when Lufthansa, Swissair, and other used to fly to Campinas people did not complain the way the people on Airliners.net are complaining about flights moving to Campinas.

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 71):
Besides, has anyone though what three airports would do the airliners??? Connections would be a mess... I will say it again: CGH is still a valid option. The airport needs a decent infra-structure, that's all.

There are a number of international cities with 3 airports or more in the catchment area..

London - City, Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, Stansted
Los Angeles - Burbank, LAX, Long Beach, Ontario, Orange County
Milan - Bergamo, Linate, Malpensa
New York - JFK, La Guardia, Newark, White Plains
Paris - Beauvais, Orly, Roissy
Washington D.C.- Baltimore, Dulles, National

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 68):
São Paulo vs Rio: sorry, this is starting to get ridiculous. You can't simply transfer a flight which starts in São Paulo to Rio!!! Besides, if TAM, Gol, Ocean Air and Varig (i.e. all carriers!!!) choose to build their hub in São Paulo, not Rio, I'm sure there's a reason for it...

Not all connecting traffic needs to be fed through Sao Paulo! What is this ongoing perversion of everything must go through Sao Paulo in Brasil? It makes sense for the Brasilian airlines to diversify there connecting options by using such cities as: Belo Horizonte, Brasilia, Rio de Janeiro, Salvador, Belem and so forth. Brasil does not revolve around Sao Paulo, it is the people of Sao Paulo that think Brasil revolves around Sao Paulo.

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 68):
Sorry for the outburst, I just don't want this to turn into another Rio vs. São Paulo thread. At the moment the business is in São Paulo.

Actually your statement is false. There is a reason that so many international airlines serve Rio de Janeiro. There is a demand for both business and leisure traffic in the Rio de Janeiro market. You are now seeing more and more airlines enter and enhance their presence in the Rio de Janeiro market. The old cliche of Sao Paulo being business and Rio de Janeiro being pleasure has eroded greatly over time.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
md94
Posts: 105
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
That is an over dramatization... At the most the drive from downtown Sao Paulo to Campinas is 2hrs 30 minutes in traffic. Hardly the 12 hours that you are referring to above... Funny also that when Lufthansa, Swissair, and other used to fly to Campinas people did not complain the way the people on Airliners.net are complaining about flights moving to Campinas.

I also do not see the difference between spending 2 hours in traffic inside Sao Paulo going to GRU/CGH or spending 2 hours in traffic to reach VCP.
72?, 732/3/7/8/9, 763/4, 772/3, 744, 787, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/8
 
C010T3
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
Not all connecting traffic needs to be fed through Sao Paulo! What is this ongoing perversion of everything must go through Sao Paulo in Brasil? It makes sense for the Brasilian airlines to diversify there connecting options by using such cities as: Belo Horizonte, Brasilia, Rio de Janeiro, Salvador, Belem and so forth. Brasil does not revolve around Sao Paulo, it is the people of Sao Paulo that think Brasil revolves around Sao Paulo.

Actually your statement is false. There is a reason that so many international airlines serve Rio de Janeiro. There is a demand for both business and leisure traffic in the Rio de Janeiro market. You are now seeing more and more airlines enter and enhance their presence in the Rio de Janeiro market. The old cliche of Sao Paulo being business and Rio de Janeiro being pleasure has eroded greatly over time.

You are completely right! I couldn't agree more. Welcome to my RR list!
 
tonytifao
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:18 pm

IMO, TAM does have a big fault on all of this. Invest money in facilities, in IT, etc.

They can't even setup a seat map for passengers with confirmed tickets on their website! Create online checkin. Add more checkin kiosks.

Their checkin agents takes about 30 min to check one person in sometimes.

Government is also at fault. How much does it cost do add 5 xray machines? Those lines to are huge at GRU.
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
Brasil does not revolve around Sao Paulo, it is the people of Sao Paulo that think Brasil revolves around Sao Paulo.

Neither Brazil revolves around Rio de Janeiro, it's the people outside Brazil that think Brazil revolves around Rio.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 76):
Neither Brazil revolves around Rio de Janeiro, it's the people outside Brazil that think Brazil revolves around Rio.

I dont think I said Brasil revolves around Rio de Janeiro or Cariocas....

I made the following two statements:


Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
There is a reason that so many international airlines serve Rio de Janeiro. There is a demand for both business and leisure traffic in the Rio de Janeiro market. You are now seeing more and more airlines enter and enhance their presence in the Rio de Janeiro market. The old cliche of Sao Paulo being business and Rio de Janeiro being pleasure has eroded greatly over time.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
Brasil does not revolve around Sao Paulo, it is the people of Sao Paulo that think Brasil revolves around Sao Paulo.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 76):
Neither Brazil revolves around Rio de Janeiro, it's the people outside Brazil that think Brazil revolves around Rio.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 77):
I dont think I said Brasil revolves around Rio de Janeiro or Cariocas....

Nobody has ever said that on this forum. 2travel2know must be underestimating your knowledge about Brazil.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:43 am

I think it's time to focus on the subject of this discussion and not go over to a Sampa VS Rio debate or what is the image most foreigners have of Brazil (Brazil is like Rio, the country is run from Rio).
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
zvocio79
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:33 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:46 am

the Govs of Brazil and Argentina must definately do something to improve safety on the airspace and airports.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Zvocio79 (Reply 80):
the Govs of Brazil and Argentina must definately do something to improve safety on the airspace and airports.

So now we are talking about Argentina?

I dont think the question is about aviation safety in Brasil.. In fact the question is reliant upon the overcrowded conditions at Brasilian airports, and the lack of runway and terminal overhaul.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 75):
Government is also at fault. How much does it cost do add 5 xray machines?

Tony i made i suggestion to Infraero and ANAC: WHY we need to double-check on X-Ray passengers using connections thru CGH, GRU and GIG ? They replied... " Some airports do not keep X-Ray staff all times "
With this statement you can see how Brazil drives aviation.. instead of upgrade the entire system, they took a very necessary equipment, that could improve the quality of the entire airport (in the cases i mentioned) to handle just temporary connecting pax, and even WORST, that in 99% of the cases, already has been screened.

I would also suggest:

- Lower Infraero charges for new international routes outside São Paulo
- Lower Infraero charges for selected NEW domestic city-pair services except São Paulo
- Immediate acquisition of ILS Cat IIIb for GRU, GIG, POA and CWB
- Immediate acquisition of ILS Cat II for MAO, BSB and CNF
- End of minimum fare for international routes outside GIG/GRU/BSB
- Airlines should incentive remote check-in and automated check-in (Tam and Varig should grant extra FF miles)
- Begin discussions to END the notorious crazy division between international and domestic flights. Airlines should
grant the list to Brazilian Authorities in a digital way, passengers flying abroad need to present documents for
Safety Team at boarding time, disembark and boarding taking place at same level (reducing the huge investment
needed for new airports/terminals). This should allow more flexible operations on places like GIG and GRU.

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 68):



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 77):



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 78):



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 79):

I will just say now that we need short term measures to help Brazil.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8524
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Md94 (Reply 52):
Exactly my question and/or point. VCP is only a little over an hour away from Sao Paulo, so why don't they use it more? Good highways all of the way in with easy access from the airport. The only problem would be the traffic, but that is bad all over Sao Paulo.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
That is an over dramatization... At the most the drive from downtown Sao Paulo to Campinas is 2hrs 30 minutes in traffic. Hardly the 12 hours that you are referring to above... Funny also that when Lufthansa, Swissair, and other used to fly to Campinas people did not complain the way the people on Airliners.net are complaining about flights moving to Campinas.

2 hours and 30 min, plus 2-3 hours ahead of time = 4.5-5 hours. That's at least half of your working day!

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 72):
Brasil does not revolve around Sao Paulo, it is the people of Sao Paulo that think Brasil revolves around Sao Paulo.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. I want more direct traffic for the entire country, but economics - right now - dictate otherwise. Part of the reason is lack of competition, due to national protective legislations. Another reason is that you can offer pax a lot more frequencies to *anywhere* in the country flying through a hub, be it GRU or GIG, or any other hub. Yet another reason is how it's an expensive industry to get in, which is harder for start-ups, which is further made impossible by outrageous taxation levels in the country. Lack of investments (and plenty of incompetency) by Infraero and such agencies limits the amount of capacity and increases the costs for everyone.

And remember, Infraero has been using a lot of money they raise from SAO and RIO to pay for improvements elsewhere.

[Edited 2007-07-26 20:42:29]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 83):
2 hours and 30 min, plus 2-3 hours ahead of time = 4.5-5 hours. That's at least half of your working day!

Again, no one was complaining about this when Lufthansa, and Swissair were flying from Campinas.. What is the difference now.. Not everyone in Sao Paulo lives in Marumbi, in Jardim Paulista, in Bela Vista, or so forth..

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 83):
Part of the reason is lack of competition, due to national protective legislations

Lack of Competition???

Ocean Air, GOL, Pantanal Linhas Aéreas, TRIP Linhas Aéreas, BRA Transportes Aéreos, TAM Linhas Aéreas, VARIG, TAM Mercosur, WebJet Linhas Aéreas, Passaredo, America Air, Air Minhas, Abaeté Linhas Aéreas, TAF Linhas Aéreas, NHT Linhas Aéreas, Rico Linhas Aéreas, and so forth..

There are many airlines in Brasil, you cannot say there is a lack of competition in Brasil. That could have been said a few years ago, but certainly not now!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 83):
Yet another reason is how it's an expensive industry to get in, which is harder for start-ups, which is further made impossible by outrageous taxation levels in the country.

If that was the case Ocean Air, GOL, Pantanal Linhas Aéreas, TRIP Linhas Aéreas, WebJet Linhas Aéreas, BRA Transportes Aéreos and a number of others would not be flying, and would have never been started!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 82):
- Lower Infraero charges for new international routes outside São Paulo

This is something ANAC shoud take notice too. ANAC should be more flexible in granting international routes to Brazilian airports that aren't GRU or GIG.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 85):
This is something ANAC shoud take notice too. ANAC should be more flexible in granting international routes to Brazilian airports that aren't GRU or GIG.

This is a point that PPVRA has mentioned as well. There is a staunch protectionism of the Brasilian market on all fronts. The US airlines are limited to serving Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, while the Brasilian airlines can offer service from a number of other destinations. I think the upcoming year we are going to be seeing new service to Recife, Salvador, Manaus, and Fortaleza. It is a given that in order to stump the smothering at GIG and GRU there needs to be a sensible distribution of service from all parts of Brasil, not just two gateways. It is senseless to have to fly from Manaus to Sao Paulo to fly to New York.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
PPVRA
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 84):
Again, no one was complaining about this when Lufthansa, and Swissair were flying from Campinas.. What is the difference now.. Not everyone in Sao Paulo lives in Marumbi, in Jardim Paulista, in Bela Vista, or so forth..

4.5-5.5 hours wasted of a whole day. And if you must ask what the difference is, you don't know SP.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 84):
Lack of Competition???

Ocean Air, GOL, Pantanal Linhas Aéreas, TRIP Linhas Aéreas, BRA Transportes Aéreos, TAM Linhas Aéreas, VARIG, TAM Mercosur, WebJet Linhas Aéreas, Passaredo, America Air, Air Minhas, Abaeté Linhas Aéreas, TAF Linhas Aéreas, NHT Linhas Aéreas, Rico Linhas Aéreas, and so forth..

All very small but GOL and TAM, and both are based in SP. Pretty much none of the others fly international anyway.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 87):
4.5-5.5 hours wasted of a whole day. And if you must ask what the difference is, you don't know SP

I know Sao Paulo fairly well as I have relatives that live in Jardim Paulista, Bela Vista, and Higienópolis

It is 99km from Jardim Paulista to Campinas or in miles 61 miles. I can tell you that is not that far of a distance as people around the World travel to airports that are not in their own town on a daily basis. For example people drive from Verona to Malpensa, people drive from Metz to Roisy, people drive from Sacramento to San Francisco, people drive from Toluca to Mexico City. It is not uncommon. To be so dramatic as to say it takes the whole day has much room to be desired. Simple knowledge of Sao Paulo would tell you to get from Jardim Paulista to Campinas takes anywhere from 1.30 hours to 2.30 hours. The higher number is with traffic involved. If people need to they will drive. The only people that seem to be so bothered with Campinas as an alternative to GRU and CGH are the people here on Airliners.net.

By no means am I saying that Campinas is as convenient as LIN, LCY, or LAS. What I am saying is that the people cannot dictate what airports the airlines fly into and out of. At current people are paranoid to fly into or out of Congonhas. I can attest to that as relatives of mine were due to fly to FLN over the weekend and opted out of it and decided to drive down to Paraty instead. Indeed a rapid rail link would help Campinas for the long run. In the meantime you have an airport people are paranoid of, and another airport that is near gridlock, and busting at the seams. An alternative airport needs to be looked at, and there is no reason that airport should not be Campinas.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 87):
All very small but GOL and TAM, and both are based in SP. Pretty much none of the others fly international anyway.

This is what you wrote...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 83):
Part of the reason is lack of competition, due to national protective legislations

That is why I replied with the list of airlines.. The use of the term international was non-existent!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 86):
The US airlines are limited to serving Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, while the Brasilian airlines can offer service from a number of other destinations.

That is not true. There is a frequency limitation which the US airlines have reached, but there is nothing stopping them from flying elsewhere. US airlines fly 91 weekly frequencies to GRU and only 14 to GIG.
 
2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 86):
The US airlines are limited to serving Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, while the Brasilian airlines can offer service from a number of other destinations.

ANAC didn't limited U.S. airlines to only fly to GRU and GIG, U.S. airlines choose to allocate all their bilateral frequencies to those 2 Brazilian airports. ANAC also allows them to tag-on to selected Brazilian airports, but the only tag-on they do is GRU-GIG.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 89):
That is not true. There is a frequency limitation which the US airlines have reached, but there is nothing stopping them from flying elsewhere. US airlines fly 91 weekly frequencies to GRU and only 14 to GIG

What I meant is that with the current limited frequencies the US airlines have they cannot serve the other markets. It was my fault for poorly wording the statement that I was making..


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 67):
FMAL

You said:
That's why I'm so angry. Brazil is such a great and rich country, but we let it go to waste in the hands of these corrupt bureaucrats that seek nothing else but personal wealth.


This was so right ! Brazil is a fantastic and great country with so many smart and nice people. All Brazilians deserves better than to have a bunch of corrupt and stupid people to disorganize their infrastructure. Lets at least hope that the victims of both the Gol and the TAM crash at least can accomplish that Lula and the rest of his goverment decides to make a change.

Lasse

Thank you for your kind words Lasse. I just read today that a group o Media people are starting a campaign of "1 minute of silence for Brazil". Not only for the victims of the TAM and Gol tragedies, but for the entire country, one who is suffering from urban violence, collapse of public services, etc. Finally people are starting to wake up and to realize the decay that this government is bringing to our nation.

I am yet to see a group of more corrupt and inept people to occupy our Federal Government. I hope I never see anything like this again in my lifetime or that of my (hopefully) future kids, starting 2010.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 91):
What I meant is that with the current limited frequencies the US airlines have they cannot serve the other markets.

I agree, but you must see that TAM is the only Brazilian airline flying to the US with 35 frequencies if I'm not mistaken. Our government is put in a very delicate position concerning liberalizing frequencies to the US, since it would be difficult for Brazilian airlines to compete. It's surely protectionism, but it's the price everybody must pay for letting VARIG collapse.
 
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SAOAP
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 84):

You can't possibily be serious! How can you compare the mid 1980s with 2007?! A lot has happened since then. Trust me, I work in the city and when I try to reach GRU to catch a flight to Europe (remember, most European carriers leave between 1500 and 2100) you tend to loose a half a business day (and surprise, surprise, it does make a huge difference). Yes, VCP isn't that far away if there's no traffic but you know well enough that it's not the case. Another thing, please don't compare SAO to NYC or LON - there's a huge difference, just look at the traffic figures of the airports.

Another important issue: as far as I know none of the European carriers are even thinking about switching it's ops from VCP to GRU. For some I know at as a fact. It's not even an issue open to discussion. Listen, this is not an issue Rio vs São Paulo. It's simply a fact that right now, the business is in São Paulo. Yes, Rio has potential and yes, I'm positive Rio will keep growing, but you can't simply transfer the traffic from one moment to the next. The issue at hand is that São Paulo's airports must be improved asap.

Best,

Marcelo
"When it's dark enough, you can see the stars" - Charles A. Beard
 
md94
Posts: 105
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 am

I grew up in Western Kansas and it was a 4 hour drive to ICT, 4 hour drive to DEN and a 7 hour drive to MCI. I believe many people think airports are always in a convenient place for everyone to go to, but they are not. A 2 hour drive is nothing for most people. Now I even have a 45 minute drive to MCI (which most people in the Kansas City area have at least a 30 minute drive because it is so far north of town).

Until they fix the problems in Sao Paulo I think VCP is a good solution.

Maybe they should set up direct "express" bus service from Sao Paulo to the airport that leaves every hour, or something similar.

Sadly, I think these two air tragedies are slowly opening up the rest of the world's eyes to the political struggles in Brazil.
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2travel2know
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Md94 (Reply 95):
Maybe they should set up direct "express" bus service from Sao Paulo to the airport that leaves every hour, or something similar.

Any Express bus between VCP and anywhere posh in Sao Paulo itself (Paulista, Broklin, Jardins) would take from 1:15h to 2:50h depending on the day and time of day.
A suggestion would be to have trains (yes trains) go non-stop from VCP (looks like there's a rail track close to airport) to somewhere attractive + convenient in Sao Paulo every hour or so. I'm very curious where the rail that passes next to VCP ends-up in Sao Paulo, but haven't been able to find reliable info (even in Portuguese) on the net.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
2travel2know
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 94):
Another important issue: as far as I know none of the European carriers are even thinking about switching it's ops from VCP to GRU. For some I know at as a fact. It's not even an issue open to discussion.

You mean switching from GRU to VCP? Given an awesome incentive package by both INFRAERO and ANAC, I'm sure there'll be airlines which at least may start to discuss it.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
PPVRA
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 96):
I'm very curious where the rail that passes next to VCP ends-up in Sao Paulo, but haven't been able to find reliable info (even in Portuguese) on the net.

If we are looking at the same thing (track tangent to the west of the airport property), I tried tracking it on Goolgle Earth and it led me towards the west, away from SP. There's a blurry area down the track but it still didn't look like there could be anything there that could lead it to SP.

edit:just west, not NW

[Edited 2007-07-27 02:24:46]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
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RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:44 am

FMAL, thank you for the correction. My wife told me by messenger, not many details about it.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 82):
I would also suggest:

Short term measures are surely required, but if that is the only thing done, we'll be back in the same spot soon. Reality may dictate a new airport such as done in Denver.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 83):
pay for improvements elsewhere.

I always liked the airport at NAT, open, spacious and bright. Plus you get to taxi by the tweety birds. I wasn't able to understand the logic of a new one, go figure.

Quoting FMAL (Reply 64):
Didn't she make the pathetic statement?

Where is the press, why is she still there?

Speaking of taxes, try paying tax in 2 countrys. I don't get my moneys worth in either one.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish

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