Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
dellatorre
Posts: 865
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 2:50 pm

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 97):
You mean switching from GRU to VCP? Given an awesome incentive package by both INFRAERO and ANAC, I'm sure there'll be airlines which at least may start to discuss it.

I doubt it!!

I personally don't think that foreign airlines will want to move their facilities there. There is no infrastructure & equipments available to even handle the traffic from CGH.

Pax headed to SAO just won't be happy about having to go to VCP. They will eventually find a way of avoiding the airport, by connecting somewhere along the way to reach CGH or GRU.

An pax flying from SSA would rather change planes in GIG or CNF, than going straight to Campinas. Specially if u put in cosideration the high taxi fares & average 1h30 bus ride to downtown.
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 99):
Where is the press, why is she still there?

Speaking of taxes, try paying tax in 2 countrys. I don't get my moneys worth in either one.

The press actually came on pretty strong when she said it. To such extent that she apologized only a few minutes afterwards. But the damage was done. She went on to fly only on private planes as a means to avoid facing the crowds at the airports, and to avoid the risk of she being physically hurt by angry passengers.

I think there's only a handful of country where one can say "I pay my taxes, but I see the results"....

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 100):
I doubt it!!

I personally don't think that foreign airlines will want to move their facilities there. There is no infrastructure & equipments available to even handle the traffic from CGH.

Pax headed to SAO just won't be happy about having to go to VCP. They will eventually find a way of avoiding the airport, by connecting somewhere along the way to reach CGH or GRU.

An pax flying from SSA would rather change planes in GIG or CNF, than going straight to Campinas. Specially if u put in cosideration the high taxi fares & average 1h30 bus ride to downtown.

I agree. If a dependable network of transportation to and from VCP from São Paulo, I think VCP could be a option for the new airport in SP. Instead of building a new one, transforming VCP into a new airport, with larger terminals, new runways, etc, and foreign and national airlines would be keen to moving to the "new" VCP.

But, as it is, VCP is just not an option, unless its the one and only option (then everybody would lose, together).

How far is Malpensa from Milan, or Fiumicino from Rome, CDG from Paris, Heathrow from downtown London, Schipol from Amsterdam, and so on? But these airports offer many and dependable options for the passenger to arrive and leave the airport. VCP and GRU offers you a highway, more often than not with massive gridlocks, and no railway or subway connection.
 
MarioSPlane
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:45 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 94):
You can't possibily be serious! How can you compare the mid 1980s with 2007?!

Exactly.

Quoting Md94 (Reply 95):
grew up in Western Kansas and it was a 4 hour drive to ICT, 4 hour drive to DEN and a 7 hour drive to MCI. I believe many people think airports are always in a convenient place for everyone to go to, but they are not. A 2 hour drive is nothing for most people. Now I even have a 45 minute drive to MCI (which most people in the Kansas City area have at least a 30 minute drive because it is so far north of town).

Airport locations are not about convenience. It´s a matter of economics and I´m sure you know that. A 2 hour drive could be nothing for some people, not for most. We don´t have rush hours in Sao Paulo anymore. The traffic is always jammed, especially at the expressways connecting the city with roads like the one used to reach VCP. I respect what you say, but going to VCP is not just a matter of possible traffic hassle, but also a very expensive ride. VCP is perfect for people living in the fast growing cities nearby, like Sorocaba, that used to have to come to CGH or GRU. For these people, taking a plane in VCP is time saving for they avoid Sao Paulo traffic. And this kind of operation in VCP helps to ease some of the passengers traffic at GRU and CGH.

When I travel, I´m rarely on a tight schedule, and using VCP would be bad anyway. And it would be certainly a nightmare for someone with a CEO-like pace to keep with.

Regards
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 102):
When I travel, I´m rarely on a tight schedule, and using VCP would be bad anyway. And it would be certainly a nightmare for someone with a CEO-like pace to keep with.

 hissyfit   hissyfit 

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 102):
When I travel, I´m rarely on a tight schedule, and using VCP would be bad anyway. And it would be certainly a nightmare for someone with a CEO-like pace to keep with.

 hissyfit   hissyfit 

Quoting FMAL (Reply 101):
But, as it is, VCP is just not an option, unless its the one and only option (then everybody would lose, together).

 hissyfit   hissyfit 

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 94):
How can you compare the mid 1980s with 2007?! A lot has happened since then. Trust me, I work in the city and when I try to reach GRU to catch a flight to Europe (remember, most European carriers leave between 1500 and 2100) you tend to loose a half a business day (and surprise, surprise, it does make a huge difference).

 hissyfit   hissyfit 

Quoting SAOAP (Reply 94):
Another thing, please don't compare SAO to NYC or LON - there's a huge difference, just look at the traffic figures of the airports.

You are right as they handle much more air traffic than Sao Paulo!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
MarioSPlane
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:45 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 88):
It is 99km from Jardim Paulista to Campinas or in miles 61 miles. I can tell you that is not that far of a distance as people around the World travel to airports that are not in their own town on a daily basis. For example people drive from Verona to Malpensa, people drive from Metz to Roisy, people drive from Sacramento to San Francisco, people drive from Toluca to Mexico City.

I don´t question your knowledge of Sao Paulo. And you are right about the distances. But going to VCP could mean a 45min or a 3 hour drive. As you´ve said in you reply, people drive these distances and that´s not what I´m complaining about. The thing is that driving from Verona to Malpensa or Sacramento to San Francisco is the opposite of driving from Sao Paulo to Campinas. And you can always tell the time you´re going to spend between Sacramento and San Francisco.

I have a great deal of respect for everything anyone posts here. And all I have to say is that I don´t think VCP is an option for people in the city of Sao Paulo as it is. VCP can´t hold much more flights than they´re already dealing with. Last week, they didn´t even have enough ground equipment to handle the diversions caused by the meltdown in Sao Paulo air traffic. I live in Sao Paulo since I was born, took many international flights in VCP when very young, and I´m not trying to teach anything to no one. I´m just giving a point of view from someone who has to deal with Sao Paulo traffic and lack of infrastructure in a daily basis.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 88):
know Sao Paulo fairly well as I have relatives that live in Jardim Paulista, Bela Vista, and Higienópolis

It´s nice you wrote Higienópolis the right way. I used to live there. Great place, hope you enjoyed it.


Regards.
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:20 am

Hi there folks,
this is my 1st post in airliners.net ever...and although we´re discussing such a unfortunate subject, i´m quite happy to see how many of you have grasped the implications of this last disaster, unlike most of our politicians and other gov´t top brass assmunches.

But in the end, what the heck did we expect?? Have you seen such crowded airports like CGH or GRU that don´t have absolutely NO access options? No trains, no subways, no nothing. I wonder how people even come down here. You may fly 1 hour, check out, catch a cab or bus and stay 4 hours stuck in traffic...what is this?

Brazil is just one fat 3rd world country where politics talk louder than life itself. Zillions of US$ in public money disappear every single year thru corruption, overpricing, plain theft if you want. And the basic of basics ain´t done at all, we barely have roads (most of them are just a stream of holes), railways are buried and now our air traffic goes to hell...

Now it´s scapegoating time here, but funny how no one talks about who authorised the insane building of houses and stores a bunch of meters from the airport...

Brazil can´t be called a "banana republic" because all bananas have been stolen long ago!

Cheers;
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:14 am

First of all, welcome to A.net SBBRTech! Always nice to see more Brazilians join in.

Now to the point of this post:

The municipality of Araçariguama, 45km from SP, has three areas about 5 times larger than CGH, each, that could support the third airport proposed for SP. According to the mayor, two of the areas belong to the municipality, and the third to the state - and none would require moving people. Moreover, the mayor stated that the lands are further away from the city center and thus wouldn't really affect the quality of life of the local residents.

Further, transportation infrastructure counts with the newly built western section of the "rodoanel", two highways nearby, and train lines for cargo. Also the municipality is near Sorocaba, an hour away from VCP.

http://br.noticias.yahoo.com/s/23072...uer-receber-novo-aeroporto-sp.html


I looked at the area on Google Earth and it doesn't seem to have the best geography, but if you don't need to move people, that's a lot of money you don't need to spend and a lot of ugly politics you avoid.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
incitatus
Posts: 3379
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 88):
It is 99km from Jardim Paulista to Campinas or in miles 61 miles. I can tell you that is not that far of a distance as people around the World travel to airports that are not in their own town on a daily basis.

The choice of examples was not the best. People travel a lot more than 60 miles to get to an airport, but that is not an endorsement to locating airports 60 or miles away from the center of the metro areas that are intended as their primary markets. Highlight primary. Like any big city, Sao Paulo needs a large airport in the vicinity of the urban area. Far away airports are surrounded with controversy, look at KUL or Montreal Mirabel. If Brazil is bound to have a single longhaul hub, then maybe VCP could be it, but that does not seem to be the hope of most Brazilians who long to have their local airports full of foreign carriers.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 107):
f Brazil is bound to have a single longhaul hub, then maybe VCP could be it, but that does not seem to be the hope of most Brazilians who long to have their local airports full of foreign carriers.

If the hope of many Brazilians is to have their local airports full of foreign carriers, then is mainly ANAC with some INFRAERO help the ones who could see that happen. See how TP is present in several Brazilian airports and wishing to get into a few more. I dare to say, that given the opportunity AA, CM and LA would surely welcome ANAC invitation to fly to CNF, BSB, SSA, FOR, REC, BEL, POA and CWB. If after the "invitation", those 3 airlines don't feel it's time to fly to those airports, that'll be their problem and won't be able to complain that ANAC doesn't allow them to add more flights to Brazil.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 104):
And you can always tell the time you´re going to spend between Sacramento and San Francisco.

It depends on a few factors:

Time of Day
Type of Weather
Sports Events

That can make the trip from 1.5 hours to 2.45 hours and so forth. By far the two worst parts are the Bay Bridge, and the end of the Bay Bridge to SFO.

Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 104):
It´s nice you wrote Higienópolis the right way. I used to live there. Great place, hope you enjoyed it

I love it!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8522
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 108):
If the hope of many Brazilians is to have their local airports full of foreign carriers, then is mainly ANAC with some INFRAERO help the ones who could see that happen. See how TP is present in several Brazilian airports and wishing to get into a few more. I dare to say, that given the opportunity AA, CM and LA would surely welcome ANAC invitation to fly to CNF, BSB, SSA, FOR, REC, BEL, POA and CWB. If after the "invitation", those 3 airlines don't feel it's time to fly to those airports, that'll be their problem and won't be able to complain that ANAC doesn't allow them to add more flights to Brazil.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

The best incentive we can give for that to become true is not to invest in brand new airports, but to actually allow airlines to fly there. Sounds like a duh but it's what is happening. There's no point in building an awesome airport if no one is allowed to add more flights to the country, or at least not without hurting their operations elsewhere.

Airlines don't fly to cities because they have pretty airports.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:32 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:41 am

Just seen in the news that federal deputies are attempting to prove that ANAC´s board of directors are underskilled and too incompetent to do the job.
ANAC is a regulatory agency and its directors have mandates, but since the President can´t just sack them, they gotta resign....
Yeah right.
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 108):
See how TP is present in several Brazilian airports and wishing to get into a few more. I dare to say, that given the opportunity AA, CM and LA would surely welcome ANAC invitation to fly to CNF, BSB, SSA, FOR, REC, BEL, POA and CWB

2Travel, the fact is that ANAC never become an agency as should be. They could begin bid for routes like Northeast, South, North, BSB, CNF and even some to GIG.. but they just allow more concentration.
TP were a very satisfactory example of how a good policy could work very well, you just need to impose some limits. People use to say that Airlines are looking for money, yes they are.

But there isn't anything worst than leave the market for your competitors or even no route to assign for a plane.
Lack of decision to force new destinations!

Even on decisions (see my Reply#82) on short term procedures (and as stated by AirSpare, need not to forget long term measures), ANAC fail to do something.

Seems the Directors should resign during the next week.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
AF086
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:45 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 112):
Seems the Directors should resign during the next week.

The president asked "kindly" for ANAC's board to resign, seems that all but one director is willing to leave. But I guess that this person will leave as well.

Things are bit (to say the least) cloudy at brazilian aviation.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: TAM Creating Chaos At GRU

Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting AF086 (Reply 113):
The president asked "kindly" for ANAC's board to resign, seems that all but one director is willing to leave. But I guess that this person will leave as well.

Things are bit (to say the least) cloudy at brazilian aviation.

And guess who's refusing? Denise Abreu herself, perhaps the greatest moron of them all. She's the one who made statements right after the Gol accident that would be better for all if she just kept quiet.

Her fantastic qualification for the job is being a political affiliate of José Dirceu, former all powerful Minister of Lula who got canned after it became too obvious that he was the mentor and head of a corruption scheme that paid off congressmen to vote in favor of the government.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if she really refuses to leave. Of course Dirceu is working this out on the background.....

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos