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stlgph
Posts: 11184
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 44):
Is this a riddle ???

No. Just a suggestion that if this is a problem, let's shut down aviation in general, close up the message board and all go home.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
If there are rules for helicopters, do such rules allow private entities to chase cars in middle of a city,
endangering anybody ??

Do us all a favor and quit posting this line of thought, this is an aviation thread. If you want to make the argument go start it in non-av since you obviously have no clue about the actual way helecopters operate in controlled airspace.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 50):
No. Just a suggestion that if this is a problem, let's shut down aviation in general, close up the message board and all go home.

To compare a B737 approaching the airport with helicopters indulging in a wild chase is really a strech !
There are risks in anything, but the amount of this risk is what counts !

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 51):
Do us all a favor and quit posting this line of thought, this is an aviation thread. If you want to make the argument go start it in non-av since you obviously have no clue about the actual way helecopters operate in controlled airspace.

Of course, you supposedly know all the rules. I do not ! But I certainly know what should NOT be allowed andthis we are discussing. If you think that all what happened here was OK and can be repeated, you possibly contribute with your attitude, if accepted by other, to the next accident. Are you confortable with this thought ?

aminobwana
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 52):
Of course, you supposedly know all the rules. I do not !

Then do a Google search and educate yourself before slinging accusations and being disrespectful to the poor souls that lost their lives today.



I have scattered ashes of a friend killed in a crash out of a News helecopter so yes, I know that aviation is not without accidents, I think many people on A.net spend too much time complaining about IFE and getting the "whole can" while no one realizes just how safe modern aviation truly is compared to other things in life.


Everything in life is a risk, including waking up in the morning, as STLGph so nicely stated, if you want to be afraid of your shadow, then by all means that is your right.

[Edited 2007-07-28 01:07:18]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 52):
But I certainly know what should NOT be allowed andthis we are discussing.

You have a point, to a limited degree, but we can't just enact a new regulation that states mid-air collisions are prohibited or otherwise not "allowed." Nor does the FAA "control" everything regarding an aircraft's movement. Aircraft (of all types) use visual (versus ATC-provided) separation all the time, and there's nothing inherently unsafe about it, as long as rules and procedures are complied with. I think you can agree with the notion that neither pilot woke up this morning thinking they were going to have a mid-air, and, accordingly, that something occurred such that perhaps one/both lost situational awareness that led to the collision. Maybe a mechanical issue? Who knows at this point, but the NTSB will investigate.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 53):
Then do a Google search and educate yourself before slinging accusations and being disrespectful to the poor souls that lost their lives today.

Pls. do not use the old tactic to hide responsibilities behind compassion to the dead. The best service we can perform to their memory is avoid a repetition !!

Quote:
Everything in life is a risk, including waking up in the morning, as STLGph so nicely stated, if you want to be afraid of your shadow, then by all means that is your right.

To accept reasonable risks, is OK and any intelligent person does so. To incur totally unnecessary provocation of fate is a ill conceived "machismo" if you are directly affected. To support that somebody else do so, ot to put third parties in danger, is irresponsible.

Remark that even ultra-high risks are acceptable, but only as long there is a valid reason, as the astronauts of Apollo 13 !!

aminobwana
 
doug_or
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
It would be better if you support your insolence with some facts !If there are rules for helicopters, do such rules allow private entities to chase cars in middle of a city,endangering anybody ?? And lawsuits are certainlly not the way to a perfrct society, but a sentence which put out of business airresponsible TV station would help !!

Here is a fact, its not a new one, but: helicopters are controled, the same as any oither small aircraft.

Light fixed wing aircraft do most of the traffic watch duty in this country.

Nothing the TV stations did was irresposible, unless you're going to make the claim that they shouldn't have dispatched the copters to film the chase (just like any other local TV station in the US that has copters would do).

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
Are you telling me seriously that the tower is able to survey two helicopter flying between buildings, chasinga vehicle on the ground and much less to do anything for their safety ??

The tower was most likely not involved. They would probably be controled by the approach control facilities for Phoenix, who would monitor them via radar. In situations like this they would almost certianly have been asked to "maintain visual speration from traffic", just like any other aircraft would.


Please Aminobwana, it is readily apparent that you have disturbingly little idea what you are talking about. Stop before you embasrass yourself further. If you are curious about the way something works, ask, but don't spout off and make crazy accusations based on ill-informed conjecture. If your profile age is accurate I'm shocked.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 48):
I find it kind of amazing that something like this hasn't happened before now, given the growing number of media outlets with helicopters, and the close proximity they often find themselves operating within. I've seen more than one police helicopter pilot quoted as saying (in effect) that these sudden media sorties to cover breaking stories can be something of an aerial circus at times.

I agree. The Fox 10 pilot said there were a total of 5 helicopters covering this chase. Those would be ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and the independent station. That's quite a few choppers for the event, and amazing it has not happened before.
I love ASO!
 
Flighty
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:33 am

RIP guys. Glad no member of the public was hurt.

Personally, I am surprised this does not happen more often. The pilots are overtaxed by their reporting duties. Why not carry a reporter along, so the pilot can concentrate on flying.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 54):
You have a point, to a limited degree, but we can't just enact a new regulation that states mid-air collisions are prohibited or otherwise not "allowed." Nor does the FAA "control" everything regarding an aircraft's movement. Aircraft (of all types) use visual (versus ATC-provided) separation all the time, and there's nothing inherently unsafe about it, as long as rules and procedures are complied with. I think you can agree with the notion that neither pilot woke up this morning thinking they were going to have a mid-air, and, accordingly, that something occurred such that perhaps one/both lost situational awareness that led to the collision. Maybe a mechanical issue? Who knows at this point, but the NTSB will investigate.

What you say is reasonable. You cannot forbid collisions. Nor can you enforce rules when two crafts are
chasing a car in moddle of a city. What I simply advocate that totally unnecessary activities as such chases for publicity and similar to be forbidden. Its the same as races between two cars in middle of the general traffic are forbidden and led to crriminal charges if an accident occur !!
Of course, chase by police are necessary and therefore must be allowed as a necessary risk !

Can you agree with this ??

aminobwana
 
stlgph
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 52):
To compare a B737 approaching the airport with helicopters indulging in a wild chase is really a strech !
There are risks in anything, but the amount of this risk is what counts !

Passenger planes go down more than helicopters collide.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Flighty
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 48):
Without a CVR or DFDR to work from, the NTSB will have their work cut-out for them.

The last words (and live footage) from both choppers were captured live on television. Also, there is a photo of both in free-fall. Eyewitnesses in other choppers. They will be able to reconstruct things pretty closely.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 58):
The pilots are overtaxed by their reporting duties. Why not carry a reporter along, so the pilot can concentrate on flying.

Doesn't the fact that each helicopter had -two- people aboard "suggest" that they indeed did?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JetBlueAUS
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:46 am

First off, I am very sorry that this accident occured. However, Aminobwana, your argument is becoming ridiculous.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
It would be better if you support your insolence with some facts !

Oh great, another one of these comments... "Helicopters colliding? They shouldn't have been where they were at the time of the accident. Are you implying at all helicopters are inferior? Do you have facts? A source? I think your opinion is silly. You need to have something to back it up other than your uneducated opinions. I know everything."
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
stlgph
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 62):
Doesn't the fact that each helicopter had -two- people aboard "suggest" that they indeed did?

Correct. The pilot flies along with a photographer and or a reporter/photographer.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
azhobo
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:52 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 42):
As far as criminal charges go... I would imagine that the felony murder law in Arizona for high speed chases is intended to prosecute fleeing drivers in situations where the actual police cars crash due to high speed in direct pursuit.

Right and Wrong. This case is certainly covered, but also others. If during the police chase these things happen, the man fleeing from the police can be easily found guilty of murder....

Police car in pursuit kills a bystander.
The criminal hits a bystander and kills them.
A civilian car (not in pursuit) swerves to move out of the way and kills someone.

It is the same as armed robbery that results in death. You dont have to be the triggerman or even carry a gun or even be in the vicinity of the actual killing (waiting in the get away car) to be charged with first degree murder in AZ and most states.
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:48 am

This is awful, thankfully seems to be quite rare among choppers.
Can a heli pilot get so used to those chaotic chases and forget about the other guys airborne ?
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
twinotter
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):
To make a simple diagram:

Prosecution case for guilt: Felony pursuits are newsworthy -> Media response is expected -> deaths occurred during media response.

Defense Strategy: The media response was not a predictable outcome of this sort of crime. Therefore, the deaths can not be attached to the crime.



If I was in this defendants shoes... I'd be looking for some plea agreements.

If you could get a jury to buy that radical line of reasoning, sure. If I was on the jury and a prosecutor tried to pull that, I would laugh out loud.

Consider an equivalent hypothetical situation. Suppose Mr. Libby had committed a felony in Arizona instead of Washington, and news reporters racing to cover his felony had an accident and were killed. Would you be cheerleading for a murder charge against him?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 59):
Can you agree with this ??

No, I can't. See below.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 59):
What I simply advocate that totally unnecessary activities as such chases for publicity and similar to be forbidden.

What you're failing to grasp here is that everyone (subject to rules, regulations, and procedures) has the right to use the airspace. You can't take an accident and retroactively conclude that someone was doing something that they "shouldn't" have been doing.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 59):
Its the same as races between two cars in middle of the general traffic are forbidden and led to crriminal charges if an accident occur !!

No, it's not the same. The helicopters weren't "speeding" or "racing" or otherwise breaking any rules, as far as we know at this point. They appear to have been using the airspace legally, and it matters not whether their mission was to cover the chase, or transport a reporter from A to B so they could cover a story at B.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
OB1504
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 58):
Personally, I am surprised this does not happen more often. The pilots are overtaxed by their reporting duties. Why not carry a reporter along, so the pilot can concentrate on flying.

Isn't there a pilot and a reporter on board for this reason?
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 64):
Correct. The pilot flies along with a photographer and or a reporter/photographer.

Yes, I know. I made my comment to the other gent who said:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 58):
The pilots are overtaxed by their reporting duties. Why not carry a reporter along, so the pilot can concentrate on flying.

There's that pesky context thing again...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 56):
"maintain visual speration from traffic",

-----------
If your profile age is accurate I'm shocked[/quote]

For your info: I am now 76 !! And as you are under 25, I am not shocked by what you state here, but as
you must be familiar with Superman's X-Ray vision, only he would be able to control what the copters were doing inside a city street.
And even if it were possible: what could be done to correct any situation in middle of such a chase ??

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 56):
Nothing the TV stations did was irresposible, unless you're going to make the claim that they shouldn't have dispatched the copters to film the chase (just like any other local TV station in the US that has copters would do).

Now you are on the right track !! As other a-netter state, ther were 5 copter involved !!!! Is this not outrageous and it would be ridiculous, if not because of the consequences
Of course all TV station do so in such cases, and this precisely must be stopped !! I By punishing one, other will become more careful. Do you agree this is reasonable, even if unlucky for the Phoenix stations ?

aminobwana
 
stlgph
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 70):

And it's also a job duty thing.

Often times, the reporter/photographer on board, if you listen closely, is also able or aware of what is going on with the piloting of the helicopter ... you'll hear them break away from a sentence or two and give a "Roger" or a flying command, then come back to script/story/etc. etc. It's a good tag team system that has probably kept accidents such as this from happening earlier.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 55):
To accept reasonable risks, is OK and any intelligent person does so. To incur totally unnecessary provocation of fate is a ill conceived "machismo" if you are directly affected. To support that somebody else do so, ot to put third parties in danger, is irresponsible.

This is again your assuption that they were flying "pumped up on Testosterone and attitude" rather than professionally while obeying all FARs. The pilots involved had EXCELLENT reputations, your comments are insulting and in very poor taste.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
GulfstreamGuy
Posts: 633
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 1999 6:30 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:12 am

I think these are the two helicopters involved..




http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/Gulfstream1/n123tv.jpg

GulfstreamGuy
"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. " -Jimmy Buffett
 
MDorBust
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 67):
If you could get a jury to buy that radical line of reasoning, sure. If I was on the jury and a prosecutor tried to pull that, I would laugh out loud.

So you don't think it's a reasonable assumption to say that news media will send helicopters to cover police pursuits?

Really?

You really actuall believe that and aren't just making stuff up to further an easily discredited position?

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 67):
Suppose Mr. Libby had committed a felony in Arizona instead of Washington, and news reporters racing to cover his felony had an accident and were killed. Would you be cheerleading for a murder charge against him?

You do realize that the death has to occur DURING THE CONDUCT OF THE FELONY?

It doesn't count if it's a press realease several weeks later.

So to carry your example to the only possible parallel to this case. If Mr. Libby was driving that truck today, yes, I would support the same charges against him.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
av8rphx
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:26 am

The 3TV helo involved was actually N613TV
 
User avatar
chrisnh
Posts: 4135
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RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:30 am

The 'easy out' is to blame one of the pilots. But I sure hope the BLAME rests squarely with TV station management, who create a 'culture of pressure' to 'get the story' and 'get the footage.' By necessity, a car chase means following essentially a mouse in a maze. You can't simply tell the Ch 3 chopper to hover a mile away while Ch 15 gets to hover right over the truck. They both want to be on top of the action, and you can be sure that the management (News Director or somesuch pin-head) wants that, too.

In a never-ending push to be 'top-dog' in a market and to hold on to a dwindling number of viewers, local news stations do STUPID, STUPID things.

I blame TV station management for this 'culture of pressure.' Of course, the stations in PHX are all circling the wagons and actually blaming the guy who stole the truck for the helicopter crash.

I hope-hope-hope the top management at these stations get lynched.
 
twinotter
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 75):
So you don't think it's a reasonable assumption to say that news media will send helicopters to cover police pursuits?

Really?

Sure, but it is also reasonable to assume some TV viewers will have a fatal heart attack precipitated by watching the felony. Are you going to include them in the murder counts?  

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 75):
You do realize that the death has to occur DURING THE CONDUCT OF THE FELONY?

It doesn't count if it's a press realease several weeks later.

I think you are really grasping here, but I will play devil's advocate. Back to the hypothetical: suppose one of Mr. Libby's interrogators in Arizona was so shocked by his felonious perjury that he dropped dead of a stroke. Clearly you would press for a murder charge in that case, no? :P

I think this line of reasoning is silly and would fail miserably in court.

[Edited 2007-07-28 02:41:15]
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 69):
Quoting Flighty (Reply 58):
Personally, I am surprised this does not happen more often. The pilots are overtaxed by their reporting duties. Why not carry a reporter along, so the pilot can concentrate on flying.

Isn't there a pilot and a reporter on board for this reason?

No. There were no reporters aboard, only pilots and cameramen. That is from the death reports.

Edit: For example, in the ABC15 aircraft, pilot/reporter Craig Smith was giving a live spoken report on TV while flying his chopper. Cameraman Rick Krolak also died.

[Edited 2007-07-28 02:53:26]
 
N2DCaves
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 7:49 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:43 am

A bit of perspective from someone who has been doing this job for a long time...and possibly some answers to questions posed previously.

http://www.wavy.com/global/video/pop...ews&d1=198167&LaunchPageAdTag=News - Breaking News&activePane=info&playerVersion=1&hostPageUrl=http%3A//www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp%3FS%3D6850948&rnd=49519279
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
 
Flighty
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 78):

I think this line of reasoning is silly and would fail miserably in court.

I agree with you. The only way they might try it is to construe the TV choppers as honorary cops. Then, when cops get killed chasing you, I can see how that goes on your record. But in this case, no, these guys just simply died doing their job. It's as simple as that. Dangerous job, you die sometimes. It's sad but true.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 56):
Nothing the TV stations did was irresposible, unless you're going to make the claim that they shouldn't have dispatched the copters to film the chase (just like any other local TV station in the US that has copters would do).

Dispatching helicopters to cover a simple car chase was irresponsible. The only reason they do it is for ratings, not because it's newsworthy.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 57):
I agree. The Fox 10 pilot said there were a total of 5 helicopters covering this chase. Those would be ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and the independent station. That's quite a few choppers for the event, and amazing it has not happened before.

Plus the police choppers, but they would be at a lower altitude, if present.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 61):
The last words (and live footage) from both choppers were captured live on television. Also, there is a photo of both in free-fall. Eyewitnesses in other choppers. They will be able to reconstruct things pretty closely.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 62):
Doesn't the fact that each helicopter had -two- people aboard "suggest" that they indeed did?



Nope - the pilots were the reporters.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 64):
Correct. The pilot flies along with a photographer and or a reporter/photographer.

See above

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 69):
Isn't there a pilot and a reporter on board for this reason?

See above.

Pic of helos coming down: http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/commphotos/view.php?id=69124

From: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0727coptercrash27-ON.html

In the moments before the crash, the pilot from KNXV-TV (Channel 15), Craig Smith, was on the radio with the pilot from KTVK-TV (Channel 3).

The inherent danger and periodic confusion of covering a police chase was clear even though you could only hear one side of the radio transmission.

Pilot Craig Smith is heard asking his photographer and talking to the pilot of Channel 3.

“Where's 3?”

“How far? Oh, jeez.”

“3, I'm right over you. 15 on top of you.”

“I'm over the top of you.”


All very, very sad.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4378
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:06 am

Oh man, this is so so sad. It is beyond sad that lives were lost in this. I hope the jerkoff that was involved in the pursuit was shot by police. He obviously tried to ram the police officer in the video right before the collision.

May those reporters and pilots rest in peace. Hopefully more can be done to prevent something like this from happening again.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 73):
This is again your assuption that they were flying "pumped up on Testosterone and attitude" rather than professionally while obeying all FARs. The pilots involved had EXCELLENT reputations, your comments are insulting and in very poor taste.

Please read again what I wrote. I am blaming the TV stations, not the Pilots and you must already have realized that. Again: do no try to hide the responsability of the Stations by accusing me and other to be irrespetuous to the pilots, Obviously the made a mistake, inavoidable if after a certain No. of such tasks, so they are not to blame.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 77):
The 'easy out' is to blame one of the pilots. But I sure hope the BLAME rests squarely with TV station management, who create a 'culture of pressure' to 'get the story' and 'get the footage.' By necessity, a car chase means following essentially a mouse in a maze. You can't simply tell the Ch 3 chopper to hover a mile away while Ch 15 gets to hover right over the truck. They both want to be on top of the action, and you can be sure that the management (News Director or somesuch pin-head) wants that, too.

In a never-ending push to be 'top-dog' in a market and to hold on to a dwindling number of viewers, local news stations do STUPID, STUPID things.

I blame TV station management for this 'culture of pressure.' Of course, the stations in PHX are all circling the wagons and actually blaming the guy who stole the truck for the helicopter crash.!

I agree and this is also my posiition, somewhat softer told, but in essence the same. Nevertheless, this should be a lesson for pilots too, in the sense not to accept such assignments!

Of course, the Stations will get the best lawyers, paid with the support of their industry, hopefully the authorities will be strong-willed enough not to yield nor accept settlements!

And the guy who stole the truck should be punished as a thief, not because uninvited reporters where chasing him. This would be the same if a voyeur who climbed on a tree to look at a bathing girl falls down and his mother blames the girl for being so cute !! Really !!!

aminobwana
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Coz (Reply 23):
This occured within class B airspace, shouldn't these choppers have been assigned separate altitudes by PHX ATC?



Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
Are you telling me seriously that the tower is able to survey two helicopter flying between buildings, chasing
a vehicle on the ground and much less to do anything for their safety ??



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 56):
helicopters are controled, the same as any oither small aircraft.



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 56):

The tower was most likely not involved. They would probably be controled by the approach control facilities for Phoenix, who would monitor them via radar. In situations like this they would almost certianly have been asked to "maintain visual speration from traffic", just like any other aircraft would.

OK people here's how things are handled in PHX tower: IIRC, The ground controller, yes GROUND, handles the helicopters on a discreet frequency reserved for choppers only. Though the ground controller does have a radar display, this is NOT how they identify them (since they only show up as blips), the controller relies on position reports/visual acquisition of the choppers. The helicopters are responsible for their own separation, the only thing the choppers need to ask for is for clearance to fly over or cross the runways at PHX. If farther out they would be talking to whatever Class D airports they're close to (SDL,DVT,FFZ etc)

I know this because I did a tour of PHX tower 2 years ago and I I specifically asked this. I'm sure the procedures are the same with the new tower.

Sad news indeed.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 78):
Sure, but it is also reasonable to assume some TV viewers will have a fatal heart attack precipitated by watching the felony. Are you going to include them in the murder counts?

Good luck proving that what he saw on TV brought on the heart attack.

However, it has been upheld that people at the sceen of the crime that die of heart attacks can be counted for Felony Murder.

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 78):
I think this line of reasoning is silly and would fail miserably in court.

Yes. Your line of reasoning is silly and would fail miserably in court.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 81):
I agree with you. The only way they might try it is to construe the TV choppers as honorary cops.

What?

That doesn't even make sense.

There is no requirement under any Felony Murder statute that I have ever seen for the victim to be a member of law enforcement.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 81):
...these guys just simply died doing their job. It's as simple as that. Dangerous job, you die sometimes. It's sad but true.

And when there is felony criminal activity involved, someone gets charged with Felony Murder. Simple as that.

Really. This thread and the other one on Felony Murder are sad testimonies to just how little people know about the laws they live under.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
crjflyer35
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:26 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:21 am

Link to eyewitness picture seconds before impact......Warning, Distubing.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...elicopters-collide,0,6696686.story

By the looks of the picture, Chopper 15 (on the right) clipped Chopper 3 and seperated the tail....

I watched this live here in Phoenix, and I'm still shocked.....truly a sad day for Phoenix and the News / Aviation industry.



Also, the suspect is in custody after a standoff with police in the West Valley. He was apprehended with SWAT and tear gas, according to local news.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:26 am

quote=Khobar,reply=82]Dispatching helicopters to cover a simple car chase was irresponsible[/quote]

certainly

Quoting Khobar (Reply 82):
the pilots were the reporters

And this is the top of irresponsability. So, the pilot must combine his responsability as such with his desire as reporter to produce interesting news !! Of course, they are only human !

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 83):
May those reporters and pilots rest in peace. Hopefully more can be done to prevent something like this from happening again.

More MUST be done, not to do it is equivalent as complicity after the fact.

aminobwana
 
GulfstreamGuy
Posts: 633
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 1999 6:30 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:33 am

I "borrowed" this picture from visitingphx.com. Thanks

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/Gulfstream1/phpn613tv.jpg

GulfstreamGuy
"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. " -Jimmy Buffett
 
twinotter
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 86):
And when there is felony criminal activity involved, someone gets charged with Felony Murder. Simple as that.

Really. This thread and the other one on Felony Murder are sad testimonies to just how little people know about the laws they live under.

Hehe, well this point won't be hard to determine. Wanna make a bet as to whether "someone gets charged with Felony Murder" ?  Smile

Follow it for us and report back when charges are filed!
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:38 am

Quoting TwinOtter (Reply 90):
Hehe, well this point won't be hard to determine. Wanna make a bet as to whether "someone gets charged with Felony Murder" ?

Follow it for us and report back when charges are filed!

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/27/helicopter.crash/index.html

Quote:
Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris said the chase began when police received a report of a stolen vehicle and began pursuing a suspect, who eventually abandoned that vehicle and stole the white truck that was being chased at the time of the chopper collision.

The suspect later bailed out of that vehicle and barricaded himself in a house, where he was captured by SWAT officers who stormed the residence, police said.

Phoenix police Sgt. Joel Tranter said the man was treated at a hospital for several dog bites before being booked into jail.

The police chief said the suspect will likely face criminal charges for the deaths in the helicopter crash.


"I think he will be held responsible for any of the deaths from this tragedy," Harris said.

"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 88):
More MUST be done, not to do it is equivalent as complicity after the fact.

If they were following the proper rules and regulations pertaining to the flight (which it appears they were), exactly what more "must be done"?

You can't regulate why they flew--you only can regulate how they flew.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4378
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Crjflyer35 (Reply 87):
Link to eyewitness picture seconds before impact......Warning, Distubing.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...elicopters-collide,0,6696686.story

That picture is horrifying. It reminds me of the pictures of the PSA 727 in a nosedive over SAN. How chilling.  Sad
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 86):
And when there is felony criminal activity involved, someone gets charged with Felony Murder. Simple as that.

Really. This thread and the other one on Felony Murder are sad testimonies to just how little people know about the laws they live under.

That's an insult to people who were actually killed by murderers.

If this law is to be applied, it should be a Felony Endangerment / Felony Murder case against the TV station management. These pilots were assigned a job so reckless, the job caused their deaths.
 
twinotter
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 91):
The police chief said the suspect will likely face criminal charges for the deaths in the helicopter crash.

Yes, I know. Time will tell if "Felony Murder" (your insistent charge, over and over, so don't try and flip-flop now  Smile) charges are filed, so let us know! Please keep us informed.  Smile
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4378
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:54 am

The video from Channel 15 is chilling beyond belief. The reporter goes, "Oh jeez", and then for a split second while the newsroom reporter talks, you can hear what sounds like a scream or a groan coming from the chopper reporter.


Can the news stations chat with eachother and determine altitude separation? I am beginning to think that the pilots were focused on the police pursuit perhaps, and failed to keep visual of other traffic. I could be wrong, but it seems like a strong possibility.

What gives me peace is knowing that the clown in the police pursuit will have to live with that guilt for the rest of his life. I doubt he can be charged for the accident, but it will be in his mind for the rest of his scum bag life. It never pays to run from the police, and sadly today we had another tragedy.

I think we will see some new rules regarding news choppers here. I support a change, as I think an accident like this was bound to happen eventually. California is infamous for having tons of news choppers in the air chasing along. What a sad outcome.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 84):
Please read again what I wrote. I am blaming the TV stations, not the Pilots and you must already have realized that. Again: do no try to hide the responsability of the Stations by accusing me and other to be irrespetuous to the pilots, Obviously the made a mistake, inavoidable if after a certain No. of such tasks, so they are not to blame.

No you are not, nice try, is this an admission that you were being disrespectful? NOTHING you first posted alludes to the station, you said " the right to fly copters withour any control"

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 38):
I ask: who gives the press the right to fly without any control copters in middle of a city, endangering the crews and more importantly, anyone on their way (persons, buildings, E-lines) , making noise, without any benefit for anybody except feeding the often sick curiosity of the public ??
Why small aircraft operations are strictly regulated, not so helicopters ??



Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
If there are rules for helicopters, do such rules allow private entities to chase cars in middle of a city,
endangering anybody ??

Again no mention of the station management, I think that you are trying to back peddle by picking up on someone else's argument about the stations asking for arial coverage, and it's quite transparent.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 47):
I will add that hoping that the pilots a good professionals is no substitute for an irresponsible behavior
of the TV stations allowing such.

again, mentioning the pilots.

You need to seriously try to think rationally for one second and realize that the pilots do not have the station managers yelling in their headphones "Closer, closer", they are flying according to their duties as PICs always.

To infer that the pilots were acting irresponsibly is still shameful, Please stop your hateful, nonsensical posts.

These pilots were consummate professionals that had done this exact type of flying for as much as 17 years, drop it ,you're out of line here.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2256
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:55 am

I think everyone needs to step back for a moment and remember that barely 6 hours ago, four very well respected members of the Phoenix news media passed away in a horrible accident witnessed by many. Their family, friendes and co-woerkers are suffering from the loss... yet the most profound thing you can come up with is if they should have even been there or not....

Quoting Khobar (Reply 82):
Dispatching helicopters to cover a simple car chase was irresponsible. The only reason they do it is for ratings, not because it's newsworthy

So there's nothing newsworthy about a guy ramming a Phoenix Police car, stealing a truck, leading police through downtown streets on a Friday lunch hour, and along the path of a multi-BILLION dollar city project?

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 77):
Of course, the stations in PHX are all circling the wagons and actually blaming the guy who stole the truck for the helicopter crash

I just spent the past hour or so watching the local news (since I'm here in Phoenix after all). I saw nothing blaming anyone for it. Nothing but tributes to the stations employees who lost their lives in this horrific accident. Which channel are you watching over there in New Hampshire where they've said anything like that?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 71):
Now you are on the right track !! As other a-netter state, ther were 5 copter involved !!!! Is this not outrageous and it would be ridiculous, if not because of the consequences

You act like this is the first time 5 news choppers plus one Phoenix PD chopper have been in the same area. A couple years ago I was working in a high rise on Van Buren right by Sky Harbor. An America West 737 was coming back to the airport with a tire or hydraulic problem. Past the end of the runway you could see all the news choppers lining up to cover the landing. This happens all the time, probably every day. This was an accident, it could have happened anywhere to anyone. Lets all pray it doesn't happen again.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 71):
For your info: I am now 76

Age does not equal wisdom.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: 2 Helicopters Collide In Phoenix AZ

Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 15):
Could the person driving the car, thus starting all this, be charged for thse deaths?

I hope not, he after all did not induce the helicopters to follow him. He should be charged for what ever crime he did commit, but murder or manslaughter is not one of those crimes!

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