onaclearday
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DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:30 am

Article in the 07/30/07 edition of the Denver Post: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6496074
 
Kohflot
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:41 am

So is F9 leasing gates on the C concourse because they're bursting at the seams or to keep them out of the hands of someone else?
Ask why..
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:44 am

This doesn't sound like much more than any other airport's normal expansion. But, it is interesting DEN is planning on only $196M to replace cracked runway and taxiway panels. These cracks and full block failures began to show up almost as soon as DEN opening in 1995. I see they got no where in their suit against the original contractor(s) who actually built the runways and taxiways, and used substandard concrete.
 
airfrnt
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 1):
So is F9 leasing gates on the C concourse because they're bursting at the seams or to keep them out of the hands of someone else?

F9 does not have any gates on C concourse. Additionally, most of the gates on C are actually "owned" by the city, and leased out on shorter order.

C will be getting 33 additional gates - 23 RJ gates (like what they just finished constructing in B) and 10 additional mainline gates.

I stopped by the new regional jet complex on A and was very impressed by it. Outside of the celing which was left open, the entire building felt like a very cohesive portion of B concourse.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
This doesn't sound like much more than any other airport's normal expansion. But, it is interesting DEN is planning on only $196M to replace cracked runway and taxiway panels. These cracks and full block failures began to show up almost as soon as DEN opening in 1995. I see they got no where in their suit against the original contractor(s) who actually built the runways and taxiways, and used substandard concrete.

This is a bit of a urban legend, as the massive payouts, and possible damage that the media screamed about never occurred. They keep a eye on the condition of the concrete, but there has not been any major issues.

Some additional bits, it looks like F9 is still working on taking over CO's gates on A. It's a bit more important because the CO gates are hooked into the international area at DEN. Any of F9's gates could be expanded to be International, but why spend money when you don't have to.

DEN is upgrading the baggage system, enough said.

DEN also is adding two more covered garages, the first one coming online at the end of the summer. When DEN opened they anticipated a 60/40 split between connecting and O&D traffic. Instead the numbers are 60% O&D to only 40% connecting. Hence more garages are needed. DEN's main terminal will be adding a hotel as well as a light rail line that will connect to the Denver metro area, the DTC, Boulder and Longmont. Discussions are underway to let people check in remotely at Union Station in downtown Denver.

The master plan has been changed to reflect the growth in regional jets. Regional jet terminals are planned for the end of Concourses B and C for right now, and possibly A depending on the success of Lynx.

Everything below is rumored, I haven't been able to verify with a second source:

DEN has had discussions with JAL, ANA and various Chinese carriers and UA about starting direct asian traffic. The question really isn't if, more when and who.

LH is happy with their two international routes out of den, but significantly less happy with the hot/high performance of the 340s during the summer.

The CO deal is still moving forward, but very slowly. F9 is threating with building their own hanger, or moving their MX to a close in city. CO wants a omnibus deal that includes their leisure space, equivalent space on Concourse C, the hanger, etc.
 
ScottB
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Kohflot (Reply 1):
So is F9 leasing gates on the C concourse because they're bursting at the seams or to keep them out of the hands of someone else?

Officially it would certainly be the former, but based on what Frontier management has done in the past, it's probably the latter. Before early 2006, there had been several vacant gates available on the C concourse, but Frontier was persistent (and ultimately successful) in obtaining the gates being used by United for Ted on the A concourse -- claiming that they needed those specific gates for growth. Now, they need two gates on C when the airport has been willing to build gates for them on A (in exchange for long-term leases)? Especially considering that unless the airport shuffles C concourse airlines, they're going to get gates at opposite ends of the concourse?

Personally, I think it's a smart short-term strategy for Frontier, since it will essentially cap Southwest's expansion at DEN to the currently-planned 56 daily departures (from 5 gates) until the new gates are completed. It keeps WN out of some of the obvious non-stop markets like DEN-LAX/BUR/ONT, DEN-SFO/SJC, DEN-SAN, DEN-STL, DEN-SAT, or DEN-PDX -- at least for a year or two. Longer term, ten gates will open up once the concourse expansion is completed, and it is self-evident that Southwest will lease some of them if they want to continue to expand from DEN.

I'm not sure I understand the point of adding commuter gates to the C concourse unless they think some of the current C tenants plan to use them; moving Great Lakes out to C will free up space for Lynx, but it also complicates connections for passengers using the codeshare between Great Lakes and Frontier. I'd think that it would be more customer-friendly to extend the existing regional concourse connected to A.

[Edited 2007-07-30 20:09:00]
 
as739x
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):

Lakes moving to the C concourse is rumor I read on their pilot chat forum.


ASSFO
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DIA
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
F9 does not have any gates on C concourse. Additionally, most of the gates on C are actually "owned" by the city, and leased out on shorter order.

Answer:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):
I think it's a smart short-term strategy for Frontier, since it will essentially cap Southwest's expansion at DEN to the currently-planned 56 daily departures (from 5 gates) until the new gates are completed. It keeps WN out of some of the obvious non-stop markets



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
LH is happy with their two international routes out of den, but significantly less happy with the hot/high performance of the 340s during the summer.

Those poor A340s...always getting picked on.  Wink
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
ScottB
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
Lakes moving to the C concourse is rumor I read on their pilot chat forum.

Did you read the Denver Post article?

Quote:
DIA's bond prospectus says commuter carrier Great Lakes Aviation is expected to move from its current location on Concourse A to the new commuter terminal on Concourse C by Jan. 1, 2009.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
F9 does not have any gates on C concourse. Additionally, most of the gates on C are actually "owned" by the city, and leased out on shorter order.

The article mentions:

Quote:
Frontier also is in the process of leasing two available gates on C for use beginning in September.

Frontier's expanding air service means it needs all the gates it can secure at DIA, said company spokesman Joe Hodas.
 
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
DEN's main terminal will be adding a hotel as well as a light rail line that will connect to the Denver metro area, the DTC, Boulder and Longmont.

I'm amazed just how much a modern hub needs the hotel in the airport. Add to that there is a strong need for a mini-conference center in the airport too. Now if only DEN would have free wireless internet! Grrrr....

When does the light rail open? I'm a big fan of rail to airports. Yes... I'm well aware that in the US we max out at 25% of the O&D traffic arriving by rail. Why? I don't know. I just take it as a correlation and think urban planning should keep it in mind. Now when will LAX get rail? (sigh... don't answer, I already know that the current "political leadership" will never do it).

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
DEN has had discussions with JAL, ANA and various Chinese carriers and UA about starting direct asian traffic. The question really isn't if, more when and who.

I agree the question is when. But when could be 2012 (no later. The 787 will be a boon to strong hubs like DEN.)

Once DEN has better connections to the other major hubs of the world... it will grow even quicker (due to businesses transferring to Denver).

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as739x
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):

Yep!

From article "DIA's bond prospectus says commuter carrier Great Lakes Aviation is EXPECTED to move from its current location on Concourse A to the new commuter terminal on Concourse C by Jan. 1, 2009"

Expected doesn't mean set in stone

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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:05 am

Sounds more like just maintance and shifting to me , but Expansion? I think that is the last thing that DEN needs right now. Its already a 5.2 billion dollar airport that has prooved to be way to expensive to operate out of. DEN just has not turned into the airport it people had dreamed up its great if you love to loose money and operate in a non-stop fare war.

Either F9 will go down or WN will close DEN operations there isn't enough room for both. UA has to be loosing money at DEN its in a non-stop fare war. Hence the fare war is why F9 posted ANOTHER quarterly loss when almost everyone else is making money again. I think i heard that F9 has also burned thru its cash reserves? anyone heard that?

Dont get me wrong i think its a beautiful airport and i love connecting thru there but at 5.2 billion dollars it better start to make money for an airline operating from there. Anyone have any ideas how anyone can make some money out of such a beautiful airport? I think we all know the almost comical way that almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong with building, planning DIA but in case heres a great and amusing article on it from back in the day http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/950213/archive_011346.htm


Heres an interesting article on another thing to go wrong at the denver airport now even the promised train seems to be way over budget. anyone heard any new news on this? Its a few months old but a few billion over budget?? This sounds like the airport that ended up more than double its original estimates in cost
http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/?page=details&id=6902&t=Archive

[Edited 2007-07-30 21:15:08]

[Edited 2007-07-30 21:17:25]
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):
but based on what Frontier management has done in the past, it's probably the latter.

I disagree with that very strongly. And even when say "it is a smart move", you see it as Southwest oriented.

Frontier needs the gates. The only two gates available are are on C. What else should they do?


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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
I disagree with that very strongly. And even when say "it is a smart move", you see it as Southwest oriented.

Frontier needs the gates. The only two gates available are are on C. What else should they do?

Good point. Case-in-point: Many people saw UA's use of A gates as a way to stop F9 from expanding...we all saw that this was not the case.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Sounds more like just maintance and shifting to me , but Expansion? I think that is the last thing that DEN needs right now. Its already a 5.2 billion dollar airport that has prooved to be way to expensive to operate out of. DEN just has not turned into the airport it people had dreamed up its great if you love to loose money and operate in a non-stop fare war.

Welcome to ten years ago. The airport has been paying off bonds at a accelerated rate, and now have a A+ rating which makes credit cheaper, and has dropped landing fees significantly. As for it somehow being "proven" to be too expensive to be operated out of, what do you call UA, F9 and WN's large operations out of the airport? As far as what people dreamed about, Denver wanted a airport that wasn't the cause of every air traffic mess, more reliable, and frankly not such a dump.

They have gotten that in spades. Even with the back to back blizzards this year, DEN is still in the top ten for reliability of departures and arrivals, and (last I looked) had a better record then ORD, ATL and LAX.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Either F9 will go down or WN will close DEN operations there isn't enough room for both.

That's your opinion. I rather suspect that WN may launch a bid for F9 at some point, but everytime some one predicts doom for F9, they have been proven wrong. I think consolidation will eventually be a factor here.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
. UA has to be loosing money at DEN its in a non-stop fare war

Which is of course why they are expanding their DEN footprint (oh... wait a minute).

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Hence the fare war is why F9 posted ANOTHER quarterly loss when almost everyone else is making money again

Really. So B6 hasn't had problems lately? So the LCC's are not challenged across the board by reformed legacies?

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
I think i heard that F9 has also burned thru its cash reserves? anyone heard that?

You heard wrong... Or at least, you heard what you wanted to hear. F9's financial position has been improving lately, although they took a small hit this quarter.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Dont get me wrong i think its a beautiful airport and i love connecting thru there but at 5.2 billion dollars it better start to make money for an airline operating from there.

You keep quoting that 5.2 billion number as if it were still 1995. And ignoring that for a long time it was UA's most profitable hub. Last I looked more then half of that debt has been paid off (I believe the number stands at around 2.2 billion)

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
I think we all know the almost comical way that almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong with building, planning DIA but in case heres a great and amusing article on it from back in the day http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar...6.htm

Ahh. you really do think that is' still 1996.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Heres an interesting article on another thing to go wrong at the denver airport now even the promised train seems to be way over budget. anyone heard any new news on this? Its a few months old but a few billion over budget??

How on earth is this even slightly related to DEN? It's not run by the same government agency, not related at all to airport costs (this is all RTD costs) and is in fact due to the insane spike in fuel, copper and concrete costs.

I would strongly suggest you join the rest of us in 2007 and look beyond the SLC in your nick at the airport that is routinely lauded as the most efficient and well run airport in the nation.
 
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
Welcome to ten years ago.

Thank you for the reply to SlcDeltaRUmd11 post from another century. Anyone living in the Denver metro/Front Range knows the growing pains of an airport bursting at the seems. If the airport wasn't paying off its debt, if service wasn't being expanded by F9 or WN or UA, I would think his post would of made sence.

I just did have the facts to find quickly to respond.  

[Edited 2007-07-30 21:54:22]
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klwright69
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:21 am

So what is going to happen to the CO Presidents Club when they move to concourse C?

I remember for years CO really dug their heels in and refused to move to C, despite pressure from the city to do so.

I remember that big CO sign there as you entered concourse A, right as you got off the train.

It made sense long ago for CO to stay near customs on A since they had the LGW flight. Contrary to what some think, the CO's LGW flight did in fact operate out of the new airport for a short while, although it was only once a week, on Mondays. They obviously did this in order to decide what to do with it. It was flight 34 out of DEN and still flight 34, but now out of IAH. CO's big P-Club and Concourse A location are vestiges of their past at Denver.
 
DIA
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Jmy007 (Reply 14):
If the airport wasn't paying off its debt, if service wasn't being expanded by F9 or WN or UA

To add:

**As the 5th-busiest airport in the nation, and an unprecedented 47.3-million pax in 2006, DIA led the country with the largest passenger increase in the country; representing a hefty 9.1% increase over 2005.

Current changes:
+ A new 525 hotel is a "go" (just SE of the terminal, but connected nonetheless) completion by 2010
+ A new 200-room hotel and retail center on the piece of land SE of DIA's Conoco station
+ Widening of Pena to three lanes (design is complete)
+ Major improvements and upgrades (of various stuff...including parking structures/lots/roads/drainage facitlities are on the way...for completion before the 2008 Demeocratic National Convention here in Denver

And these are just landside!

Airside includes a whole gammit of other things...most of which a.netters already know of...so I'll withold repeating.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):

When does the light rail open?

According to RTD's website, the line from downtown Denver to DIA will open in 2014 with an estimated travel time of 40 minutes from downtown to DIA...
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ScottB
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
I think i heard that F9 has also burned thru its cash reserves? anyone heard that?

No, they have not. Their cash reserves are down somewhat year-over-year, but Frontier continues to have a healthy cash position.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 10):
Expansion? I think that is the last thing that DEN needs right now.

Virtually all (if not all) gates at DEN are leased, and the parking facilities are consistently full. The airport absolutely needs expansion projects targeted at the areas which demand expansion.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
And even when say "it is a smart move", you see it as Southwest oriented.

Frontier needs the gates. The only two gates available are are on C. What else should they do?

I do, because it is a 180-degree turn from their past position with respect to facilities on the A concourse being the only acceptable ones for them to use for expansion. Moreover, as of last week, Frontier has no additional new mainline aircraft coming into the fleet until February -- so the reason they need new gates in September would be what?

If it were really just about needing the gates for future growth, we'd see additional gates being planned for the A concourse in concert with leases on C concourse gates for the short term. But we're not seeing any more gates planned for A, which is what would be ideal in terms of maintaining customer convenience and what would be consistent with their past position regarding using available gates on C.

I'm not exactly certain why taking business decisions with the presence of Southwest in mind is considered a pejorative? I think it's a smart blocking strategy to contain them for a couple of years until Lynx is contributing to the bottom line.
 
jmy007
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 17):
According to RTD's website, the line from downtown Denver to DIA will open in 2014 with an estimated travel time of 40 minutes from downtown to DIA...

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/ec_1

From what I have heard in the media, and from Fast tracks, the link between DIA and Downtown would be heavy commuter rail, rather than light rail. 40 minutes seems an awful long time to get to downtown!
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klwright69
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:18 am

If I recall correctly that when they built Denver International it had fewer gates that the old airport. I found this amazing. An expansion is over due.
 
ScottB
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 12):
Many people saw UA's use of A gates as a way to stop F9 from expanding...we all saw that this was not the case.

I disagree. We did see Frontier attempt a number of point-to-point routes from LAX -- ostensibly because they didn't have the facilities they needed to expand at DEN. I think United gave up its A concourse gates for two reasons: (1) the airport finally made them an offer that gave them what they wanted in terms of facilities and finances and (2) the entry of Southwest into DEN blew apart the "let's contain Frontier" strategy.
 
ATCme
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:35 am

So I'm not an expert or anything (by any means), but if DEN is expanding or just expanded all the concourses for commuter jets, why not just build a commuter concourse D? I heard that they planned enough space for a D and an E concourse, it makes sense to me!
From my limited view, I believe Denver was an extremely well planned airport when built, but somehow is lacking in planning and layout now with the expansions and all. Being the OCD type of person I am, I would have loved to have a complete plan for airport, runways, terminals, garages, and concourses for a fully built and fully expanded airport, before anything was built. Thats just me though.
Anyway, Denver is still my favorite airport (especially if they were to add a panorama viewing deck like Schipol) and I am lucky to get to fly out of there every time I fly somewhere.
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onaclearday
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:41 am

AirFrnt, thanks for the great response to the posting by SlcDeltaRUmd11. Strange how some people simply deny reality these days....  smile 

[Edited 2007-07-30 23:49:04]
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
Moreover, as of last week, Frontier has no additional new mainline aircraft coming into the fleet until February -- so the reason they need new gates in September would be what?

They have several new E70's coming in - by the end of the year the Republic fleet will be 11 as against the (old) maximum Horizon fleet of 8 plus 1, and it continues to grow. They prefer to use gates instead of hardstand for those aircraft.

Additionally, there is to be a ramp up in international flying, and, at certain times, the only international gates are well-used. At times Frontier has been able to use those gates for domestic flights, but now the international use must be protected.

That ramp-up begins in October/November. Taking the C gates in September - to get used to 'em - would seem reasonable to me.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
I do, because it is a 180-degree turn from their past position with respect to facilities on the A concourse being the only acceptable ones for them to use for expansion.

It was only because of that stubborn-ness that they got the A gates. Just about everyone was telling Frontier to commit to the A extension - which Mr. Potter simply would not do as long as United had those A gates.

He won. He got the A gates without having to incur the cost of the (more expensive) leases for the extension.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
But we're not seeing any more gates planned for A,

The plans for new A gates exist, in two variants. The C expansion takes priority for two reasons - (i) so that OAL's can get some gates at DEN and (ii) (Mr. Kelly has said) because of Southwest.

Moreover, moving Continental to C solves at least one part of the problem on A - international. Or contributes to solving it.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
I'm not exactly certain why taking business decisions with the presence of Southwest in mind is considered a pejorative?

When it is presented as the only reason, then yes, I see it as a pejorative.

I think it would be a very dangerous game for Frontier to take those C gates simply as a blocking move. It may well be a side benefit, but it is still dangerous. Some people on other boards are very concerned as to what Southwest's reaction to it may be - if it is seen as a blocking move.

But this has been an open secret for some time - the rumor of was discussed here months ago. If we know about it, then I'm pretty sure the airlines at DIA do. So if it were only a blocking move by Frontier, Southwest could easily have taken those gates and blocked Frontier.

Thus I come back to the original question - Frontier needs gates. The only gates available are on C. What else should Frontier do?

mariner
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mkorpal
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting ATCme (Reply 22):
So I'm not an expert or anything (by any means), but if DEN is expanding or just expanded all the concourses for commuter jets, why not just build a commuter concourse D? I heard that they planned enough space for a D and an E concourse, it makes sense to me!
From my limited view, I believe Denver was an extremely well planned airport when built, but somehow is lacking in planning and layout now with the expansions and all. Being the OCD type of person I am, I would have loved to have a complete plan for airport, runways, terminals, garages, and concourses for a fully built and fully expanded airport, before anything was built. Thats just me though.
Anyway, Denver is still my favorite airport (especially if they were to add a panorama viewing deck like Schipol) and I am lucky to get to fly out of there every time I fly somewhere.
ATCme spin

There are two reasons against that. First, it makes more sense to have the regional carriers as close to their respective legacy carriers as possible. Having the regional facilities at the end of existing concourses does just that. Second, it would cost significantly more to build a separate concourse.

As for the plan, I know they have a definite plan. From what I remember, it is happening as it should. I think they were planning on concourse extensions at around 50 mil per year, which they are at now, and a new concourse at around 70 mil, which they will be at in about 5 years. Or, at least that is how I remembered it.
 
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
They have several new E70's coming in - by the end of the year the Republic fleet will be 11 as against the (old) maximum Horizon fleet of 8 plus 1, and it continues to grow.

But...the Jet Express fleet (Horizon + Republic) was already 11 at June 30 -- so there is no net growth through year-end. Moreover, in June 2006, F9 had 17 gates at DEN and 62 aircraft (mainline + Jet Express). Today they have 22 gates at DEN and 71 aircraft (again, mainline + Jet Express) -- and they are also flying more point-to-point service. They are now significantly less crowded than they were a year ago (over 10%).

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
Additionally, there is to be a ramp up in international flying, and, at certain times, the only international gates are well-used. At times Frontier has been able to use those gates for domestic flights, but now the international use must be protected.

If F9 ramps up international flying on a constant fleet size, the amount of domestic flying will necessarily shrink.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
It was only because of that stubborn-ness that they got the A gates. Just about everyone was telling Frontier to commit to the A extension - which Mr. Potter simply would not do as long as United had those A gates.

So what does this say about all those pronouncements that only gates on A were suitable for Frontier's purposes?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
Moreover, moving Continental to C solves at least one part of the problem on A - international. Or contributes to solving it.

It does -- but only if CO goes along with the deal. My guess is that the City will have to let CO out of its lease on the hangar, build a suitable Presidents Club on C, pay for moving expenses, and give CO comparable terms on new gates out on C. I suspect that the City might require Frontier to take over the lease on said hangar with a fairly long term.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
I think it would be a very dangerous game for Frontier to take those C gates simply as a blocking move. It may well be a side benefit, but it is still dangerous. Some people on other boards are very concerned as to what Southwest's reaction to it may be - if it is seen as a blocking move.

I think that Southwest is going to do whatever Southwest wants to do in the long term, whether or not Frontier takes gates as a blocking move. No, it wasn't a secret -- Frontier's quarterly report states that they plan to lease two preferential use gates on C.

The jet fleet (mainline and Jet Express) isn't growing between now and year-end -- so I simply do not buy the argument that the gates are needed for "growth." We can agree to disagree.
 
kingcavalier
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
The jet fleet (mainline and Jet Express) isn't growing between now and year-end -- so I simply do not buy the argument that the gates are needed for "growth."

Oh, but it is a valid argument. Don't forget about the 10 Q400's.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
So what does this say about all those pronouncements that only gates on A were suitable for Frontier's purposes?

It says why should Frontier pay for an extension on A at the time when Ted had plenty of room to move over to B?
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
 
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mariner
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
But...the Jet Express fleet (Horizon + Republic) was already 11 at June 30

With more coming in. The contract is for 17. Horizon was for 8 plus 1.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
If F9 ramps up international flying on a constant fleet size, the amount of domestic flying will necessarily shrink.

Um - Republic has rights for several of the international routes. On domestic flying, the E170's can, if necesary, use hardstand. They can't do that for international.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
So what does this say about all those pronouncements that only gates on A were suitable for Frontier's purposes?

A successful negotiating tactic?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
It does -- but only if CO goes along with the deal. My guess is that the City will have to let CO out of its lease on the hangar, build a suitable Presidents Club on C, pay for moving expenses, and give CO comparable terms on new gates out on C. I suspect that the City might require Frontier to take over the lease on said hangar with a fairly long term.

That may all be true. Since the Continental move to C is published in the DIA prospectus, I assume DIA has grounds for saying it.

Otherwise, I smell lawsuits.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
I think that Southwest is going to do whatever Southwest wants to do in the long term

I have never said otherwise.

mariner
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CALMSP
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:46 am

we certainly have no interest in moving to C.....there are certain advantages where we are right now that we would like to keep.
 
BA
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
DEN's main terminal will be adding a hotel as well as a light rail line that will connect to the Denver metro area, the DTC, Boulder and Longmont.

Light rail was ruled out last year. The line will be heavy rail and just last week RTD voted on electric instead of diesel.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
F9 is threating with building their own hanger, or moving their MX to a close in city.

I really hope that F9 builds their own hangar at DEN. The question is: With the expansion of C, where in the heck are they going to build it?? I remember reading in a thread that I created asking about the F9 hangar that the CO hangar was being lease out, as we know. But then I also recall somebody saying that the CO and UA hangars would be torn down to pave the way for something. I forgot what it was. (runway expansion or C concourse expansion??)

I suggested putting the hangars on the west side of the airport and name it 'Hangar Row'.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
CarsAir04
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 29):
there are certain advantages where we are right now that we would like to keep.

A good comment. I am sure, even if Frontier had thoughts of blocking Southwest in, they also had to think of all the logistics of having some gates on C.
One: Connecting flights. What flights would operate from C that would make the most sense for any connecting traffic.

Two: Just like Ted on A, Frontier will have to have a certain number of flights a day to keep the gates. If they had thought the gates on A would have been sufficient, I am sure they would have been their first choice. That was a main arguement to getting the Ted gates on A, that United was using them the bare minimum, just to keep Frontier from expanding.

Three: The bridge as an option instead of the train. 2 options to get to the main terminal.

With all the new aircraft, Q400 and E170's, I am sure they will make as much use out of all their gates until the time comes that DIA decides to expand A. Until then, they seem to have run out of room. And DIA was probably glad to be able to lease out those gates again.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 29):
we certainly have no interest in moving to C.....there are certain advantages where we are right now that we would like to keep.

While I agree that CO would prefer to stay just where they are right now in A, whether or not CO does move from A to C will depend upon other factors. If CO can terminate some of its existing obligations at Denver in return for moving to C and, as a bonus, get a very good deal on new gates and have the airport pick up the costs of building a new Prez Club and doing the interior installation of the new gates, CO will think long and hard about the move.

Whatever decision is made by CO at Denver will be made by the lawyers and the accountants.
 
ScottB
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
But...the Jet Express fleet (Horizon + Republic) was already 11 at June 30

With more coming in. The contract is for 17. Horizon was for 8 plus 1.

And the "more coming in" is well after September, when the new gates are to be leased.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
If F9 ramps up international flying on a constant fleet size, the amount of domestic flying will necessarily shrink.

Um - Republic has rights for several of the international routes. On domestic flying, the E170's can, if necesary, use hardstand. They can't do that for international.

That may well be true, but the mainline + Jet Express fleet is still flat through year end.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
So what does this say about all those pronouncements that only gates on A were suitable for Frontier's purposes?

A successful negotiating tactic?

Yes it was...and it also wasn't entirely truthful given that gates on C seem to be acceptable now.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
That may all be true. Since the Continental move to C is published in the DIA prospectus, I assume DIA has grounds for saying it.

Typically there's a bunch of boilerplate language saying "there can be no assurances..."

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 27):
Don't forget about the 10 Q400's.

Will they use hardstands or gates?

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 32):
Two: Just like Ted on A, Frontier will have to have a certain number of flights a day to keep the gates.

That's fairly simple to accomplish; you just reduce utilization on other gates if necessary.

Honestly, I don't get why the concept of Frontier gate-squatting is so controversial! It's a good business move because it keeps WN from getting new gates for a couple of years! They can't explicitly say "we're taking these gates to keep Southwest from getting them" because the airport is required by Federal regulation to reallocate underused gates to airlines which request them and to enforce minimum use restrictions in new gate leases. If it makes people happy to think that taking the last two gates on the C concourse is just a coincidence, well, I guess I shouldn't waste my breath.
 
N353SK
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 32):
Connecting flights. What flights would operate from C that would make the most sense for any connecting traffic.

I can't think of any situation that is "optimal" that involves F9 running any flights out of C (for F9 at least). The obvious (but possibly incorrect) choice for flights from C would be ones that are heavy O&D, to minimize connections between A and C. But this runs the possibility of angering the local (and lucrative) pax who don't want to go all the way out to C, which while still a fine facility, is pretty dismal compared to DEN's other terminals.
 
ShannoninAMA
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:19 am

Dumb question.....But is F9 Snagging up these gates so no one else gets them? Or does this mean they will be expanding? Ive been curious as to how much lynx and F9 mainline will grow in the next few years  Smile



Shan Big grin
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User avatar
mariner
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
And the "more coming in" is well after September, when the new gates are to be leased.

DIA is, not surprisingly, one step ahead of me, because I had not heard September, but slightly later in the year.

In any event, if is going to happen, I don't see the point of delaying it.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Yes it was...and it also wasn't entirely truthful given that gates on C seem to be acceptable now.

Hmmm? Mr. Potter's postion was - and is - that he will not enter into long term leases for new gates, if old gates are available.

I am sure they don't particularly want to go to C - but I would guess that gates on C are cheaper then any new built gates. And there are no other gates presently available.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
Typically there's a bunch of boilerplate language saying "there can be no assurances..."

Yes, indeed. Even so, I doubt DIA would state things in a prospectus that have no basis in truth.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):
DEN's main terminal will be adding a hotel as well as a light rail line that will connect to the Denver metro area, the DTC, Boulder and Longmont.

It looks like the rail line will only connect DIA to downtown Denver, from which, once all the FasTracks lines are done, then you can connect to Boulder, the DTC, or Longmont...while a direct train line from DIA to Boulder would be awesome, it'll never happen, not enough traffic to justify it...the AB bus line that currently serves the route is funded in part by CU student fees and the route is in constant danger of being eliminated or heavily reduced...
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CarsAir04
Posts: 140
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 38):
nt danger of being eliminated or heavily reduced

It seems all the lines are in danger of this at some point or another. The west route has been or talk has been that they will reduce the number of lines/trains. I think everyone would really like to have the line out to DIA first, rather than, i believe the 2nd or 3rd line to be done coming up. As it stands, it should connect DIA to downtown, as well as go south to the DTC area. It will be great for everyone, especially the business people coming to Denver for those meetings in the large office areas, DTC, Downtown,and others.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 15):
So what is going to happen to the CO Presidents Club when they move to concourse C?
I remember for years CO really dug their heels in and refused to move to C, despite pressure from the city to do so.
I remember that big CO sign there as you entered concourse A, right as you got off the train.

CO wants some sort of equivalent space.

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 15):
It made sense long ago for CO to stay near customs on A since they had the LGW flight. Contrary to what some think, the CO's LGW flight did in fact operate out of the new airport for a short while, although it was only once a week, on Mondays. They obviously did this in order to decide what to do with it. It was flight 34 out of DEN and still flight 34, but now out of IAH. CO's big P-Club and Concourse A location are vestiges of their past at Denver.

Yep. The position of second carrier at DEN has been filled by F9. WN is trying to see if they can force a return to the days where DEN triple hubbed.

Quoting ATCme (Reply 22):
So I'm not an expert or anything (by any means), but if DEN is expanding or just expanded all the concourses for commuter jets, why not just build a commuter concourse D? I heard that they planned enough space for a D and an E concourse, it makes sense to me!

Primarily because airlines want their RJ and mainline as close together as possible. It's cheaper infrastructure wise to expand the concourses then to build new ones.

Quoting ATCme (Reply 22):
Being the OCD type of person I am, I would have loved to have a complete plan for airport, runways, terminals, garages, and concourses for a fully built and fully expanded airport, before anything was built. Thats just me though.

They did it, and I had (I think I deleted it accidentally) a copy of it. Basically it called for each of the terminals to be expanded to the west and east before adding concourse D. That's changed a bit because of the need for carriers to have RJ terminals which limit the eastward expansion of the aircraft. The Hotel, the expansion of the main terminal, Pena widening, new hangers are all in there. IIRC, DEN has room to grow out all the way to G if they really wanted to  Wink

Of course, main terminal expansion would be a issue.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 31):
I really hope that F9 builds their own hangar at DEN. The question is: With the expansion of C, where in the heck are they going to build it?? I remember reading in a thread that I created asking about the F9 hangar that the CO hangar was being lease out, as we know. But then I also recall somebody saying that the CO and UA hangars would be torn down to pave the way for something. I forgot what it was. (runway expansion or C concourse expansion??)

There is more then enough space to put it just about anywhere. The UA terminal will have to be torn down when the build E, if they ever do.

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 38):

It looks like the rail line will only connect DIA to downtown Denver, from which, once all the FasTracks lines are done, then you can connect to Boulder, the DTC, or Longmont...while a direct train line from DIA to Boulder would be awesome, it'll never happen, not enough traffic to justify it...the AB bus line that currently serves the route is funded in part by CU student fees and the route is in constant danger of being eliminated or heavily reduced...

Correct. Sorry for the terminology mistake.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 40):
The UA terminal will have to be torn down when the build E, if they ever do.

You mean, UA's hangar, not terminal.  Wink
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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ADent
Posts: 1054
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):

C will be getting 33 additional gates - 23 RJ gates (like what they just finished constructing in B) and 10 additional mainline gates.

I stopped by the new regional jet complex on A [I think you meant B here-AD] and was very impressed by it. Outside of the celing which was left open, the entire building felt like a very cohesive portion of B concourse.

What about the exposed cinder block? The monitors jutting out into the hallway? The podiums are much nicer (color plasmas) than the main concourse (red LEDs). I'll admit it is nice (and much nicer than mobile home like structure on the other side) - but it doesn't seem 'very' cohesive to me.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2173
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 42):
The monitors jutting out into the hallway? The podiums are much nicer (color plasmas) than the main concourse (red LEDs)

They have started replacing all of the screens at DEN with plasmas.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 20):
If I recall correctly that when they built Denver International it had fewer gates that the old airport. I found this amazing. An expansion is over due.

In the original planning stages, DIA was going to cater to large hubs for (original) F9, CO, and UA, and rumor of a potential new hub for AA, IIRC. When building commenced, only UA remained with a hub. In additiona, some other large players in DEN (Stapleton) went bankrupt: BN, TW. Western had a larger presence in DEN prior to moving hub operations to SLC. MarkAir, then WestPac II attempted small hubs at DEN or DIA, but went out. On top of that, there seemed to be a larger flock of commuter airlines with more flights to the mountian and plains towns. Since then, hub needs have caught up again.

Quoting ATCme (Reply 22):
From my limited view, I believe Denver was an extremely well planned airport when built, but somehow is lacking in planning and layout now with the expansions and all. Being the OCD type of person I am, I would have loved to have a complete plan for airport, runways, terminals, garages, and concourses for a fully built and fully expanded airport, before anything was built. Thats just me though.

As has been said above, master plans as you suggest do exist. Would you expect otherwise for multiple billion dollars?? I remember seeing them in the press (AW&ST and Denver Post, for instance). Multiple concourses past C, extensions east and west on each of these when needed, doubling the size of the Jeppeson terminal in a southward direction, plus more runways in the present pinwheel orientation. I don't know details of the current plans, but it would seem that they are following the master plan. Then again, in 15 intervening years, plans can need an update.

-Rampart
 
PExDCA
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 34):
and it also wasn't entirely truthful given that gates on C seem to be acceptable now.

Or perhaps it was truthful... remember, that was THEN. This is NOW. Circumstances and business plans are fluid and change frequently.
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 44):

In the original planning stages, DIA was going to cater to large hubs for (original) F9, CO,

I believe that F9 and CO where pretty much merged by the time the discussions where really moving on the new airport.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 44):
and rumor of a potential new hub for AA, IIRC.

AA has talked about it three different times, however, out of all of the carriers, the one that I don't think it makes any sense at all is AA.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 44):
Then again, in 15 intervening years, plans can need an update.

The plan was updated earlier this year.
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
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RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
When does the light rail open? I'm a big fan of rail to airports

Amen to that! Here in Chicago having both airports linked by the 'el It's cheap, often is quicker than a cab if the traffic is a mess, is safe and since both lines terminate at their respective airports it's hard to go wrong when you arrive.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 13):
I rather suspect that WN may launch a bid for F9 at some point

I don't see this happening as WN would be buying a lot of incompatible equipment and be a huge investment for little more than gate space. B6, assuming they can get their house in order, seams more logical.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 47):
I don't see this happening as WN would be buying a lot of incompatible equipment and be a huge investment for little more than gate space. B6, assuming they can get their house in order, seams more logical.

WN has already stated that they don't beleive equipment choice would be a issue. In their words "we figured out how to go from a non-Boeing fleet to a all-Boeing fleet"

One of the things that WN has talked about is that they want to do more short-haul and less transcons. DEN plays perfectly into that since it's the middle point of a awful lot of transcon routes.The question in my mind is if WN can be profitable with three different airlines competing. Given their success at LAX and MDW, I think the answer to that is yes, but they still may end up making a bid, especially with how cheap F9 is.
 
rampart
Posts: 1800
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: DEN Expansion Plans/Changes For CO And F9

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 46):
I believe that F9 and CO where pretty much merged by the time the discussions where really moving on the new airport.

Of course, I should have remembered that. At any rate, fewer gates needed than original Stapleton.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 46):
AA has talked about it three different times, however, out of all of the carriers, the one that I don't think it makes any sense at all is AA.

Wasn't this also the time that AA was setting up hubs in RDU, BNA, and SJC? A discusion for another thread -- I'm curious about the other two times you mention -- but I could imagine them wanting a more western hub, but wisely seeing that DEN would have presented too much conflict for what it offered.

You probably recall that TWA also had a very brief and minimally fortified attempt at a hub in Stapleton, early 90s or late 80s, I'm trying to remember.

-Rampart

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