Carpethead
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KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:50 pm

Surprised nobody has picked up on it, but a new 4,000m runway will finally commence commercial operations.

- First landing will be JL 728 from BKK with scheduled time of 0625. (Probably with 763 JA605J which has a sticker on its fuselage)
- First take-off will be NH 951 to HGH with scheduled time of 1035. (Probably panda 763 - or moooooooo 763)

Traffic is definitely increasing at KIX with already record levels of traffic. Details on the build up of the second island have been released but there is still no construction schedule because the current terminal can still handle more capacity.
Long-haul traffic is nowhere near pre-2001 levels but regional, particularly those to China, and cargo flights are booming.
Shenzhen Airlines just announced start up of service this fall.
 
kaitak
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:30 pm

Good news for Kansai certainly, but I doubt aircraft enthusiasts will be too pleased; backlighting will be quite a problem for that runway, for photography purposes!

However, good to see KIX grow!
 
28L28L
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:07 am

Do you know what the new runway numbers are?
 
kaitak
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:21 am

The current runway is 24/06, so I'm assuming that will become 24L/06R and the new one, 24R/06L.
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:44 am

The first commercial flight to land on Rwy 24R/6L was indeed JL 728 operated by 763ER JA605J.
Another two hours until the first departure.
 
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centrair
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
backlighting will be quite a problem for that runway, for photography purposes!

But will it be as bad as NGO at sunset? The biggest spotting issue will be that the observatory at the end of the old runway is really only good for seeing the old runway. The new runway is blocked by a building. But if you have a good room at the Nikko then life would rock.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
The first commercial flight to land on Rwy 24R/6L was indeed JL 728 operated by 763ER JA605J.

JL got first landing on the first runway at KIX back when it opened. JL got first landing at NGO when it opened (Charter flight designed for enthusiasts). I wonder was JL the first to land at CTS, FUK and NRT when they opened?

What is the width of the runway and did KIX widen their taxi-ways for the A380? (never know...EK might do something or maybe even diversions)
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:23 pm

Responses are sure slow. I would have thought an opening of a new runway at a (fairly) significant world airport would be a big deal. I guess no one gives a s*** about Japan.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 5):
What is the width of the runway and did KIX widen their taxi-ways for the A380? (never know...EK might do something or maybe even diversions)

KIX's runways are all 60m in width and taxiways can handle the turning radius of the A346, so in theory A380 is no problem airside. The small problem is ground side. The wingspan of the A380 will probably occupy three gates, but who is going to have A380 ops into KIX. Perhaps EK, but once EK gets Tokyo slots, then it won't be an issue.
 
CV990
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:33 pm

Hi!

Excelent news for KIX and Osaka itself!!! Congratulations! I landed there in April 2005 flying with KL from AMS, at that time KL flew some days with 777 and the 744, I landed in PH-BQE and took-off on PH-BFA. I still remember when I was landing that the water was coming closer and closer and closer, then we passed really low over a bridge and then there was the runway! The KIX airport was very modern and nice, also very clean and with a great atmosphere. On take-off we did an immediate tight left turn with climb ( a full 360 wide circle ) and I remember seeing then Osaka at a very high altitude already. On the personal side I had a great experience visiting Japan for the first time and Osaka was a great place to visit too.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:18 pm

I just landed on it two hours ago on UA 833 from HNL  Smile
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting Ex_SQer (Reply 8):
I just landed on it two hours ago on UA 833 from HNL

Must have been one looooooong taxi.
 
John
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:12 pm

Is KIX strictly international service and ITM handles only domestic intra-Japan routes? Same for NRT/HND?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:23 pm

A dearmost friend of mine is on flight LH740 (what seems to be a A346) right now enroute to KIX.
I guess she will get to land on the new runway for her return home after a year of studies in Nice.

I wish a lot of future success to KIX (I landed there on the very first day they opened) and the new runway!  Smile
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):

Must have been one looooooong taxi.

Indeed it was. I connected to SQ621 and that flight departed on the old r/w though.

Btw while descending I thought I saw another airport on an island, and one end of the Runway was marked 27. Was that Kobe? It must have been only a few miles from KIX....
 
airtebiong
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting John (Reply 10):
Is KIX strictly international service and ITM handles only domestic intra-Japan routes? Same for NRT/HND?

ITM is domestic only while KIX handles both domestic and international..
i believe that beauty is skin deep, and my skin is very deep!!
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Ex_SQer (Reply 12):
Btw while descending I thought I saw another airport on an island, and one end of the Runway was marked 27. Was that Kobe? It must have been only a few miles from KIX....

Indeed. You probably landed on Rwy 24R, so out of the left side, you can see Kobe Airport.
The straight-line distance between Kobe and KIX is something on the order of 8 miles.
From the KIX observation deck, one can see Kobe Airport with a good pair of binoculars.
 
jimbo27L
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 am

Ah yes...congrat KIX! I have bit of a soft spot for this part of the world having spent some time working in Osaka last year.

Quoting Airtebiong (Reply 13):
ITM is domestic only while KIX handles both domestic and international

Always puzzled me why there weren't more flights to NRT from KIX or ITM....with only one daily flight to LHR on JAL from KIX, I tended to fly BA through NRT. Happy as I was to spend time on the shinkansen, I always used to get frustrated at having to change at Tokyo station to reach NRT - Time wise the train took approx 3 - 3.5hrs too....and that was going quick!

I suppose KIX is an international gateway in its own right, but do any of you guys out there have any idea why there is a lack of flights between KIX/ITM and NRT??? Slots??
 
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centrair
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting John (Reply 10):
Is KIX strictly international service and ITM handles only domestic intra-Japan routes? Same for NRT/HND?

KIX =Both International and Domestic but Domestic is not anywhere close to where it should be.
ITM =Domestic and centrally located thus taking away from KIX's ability to have more domestic
Kobe = Domestic only and resticted...takes a little more away from ITM and KIX.
NRT =Both International and Domestic but Domestic is not anywhere close to where it should be. (Slot issues)
HND =Mainly Domestic but is seeing more International. It has regular flights to SEL (Gimpo) and soon SHA (Hongqiao). There are even talks of allowing long-haul in to HND.
Other major airports
NGO = Both International and domestic still has lots to grow. Lots of Domestic connections
NKM = Nagoya Komaki (former NGO) Domestic only but restricted to planes up to 50 seats. Mainly for private planes and SDF base at Komaki (larger than 50 seats of course).
Most other airports in Japan are able to handle both domestic and international flights. International flights mostly consist of inter-Asia. Long-haul flights only happen at KIX, NRT and NGO.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 15):
I suppose KIX is an international gateway in its own right, but do any of you guys out there have any idea why there is a lack of flights between KIX/ITM and NRT??? Slots??

Correct. Both ITM & NRT have major slot issues. ITM is purely due to restricting movements because of being in the middle of the city, similar to Paris Orly, though it is nowhere near operational capacity.
NRT-KIX hasn't existed in years.

I am not sure I'd call KIX an 'international gateway' anymore because it has lost many long-haul routes.
I would call it more a 'regional gateway' these days. Again total movements are at the highest ever, but this is due to shifting of domestic frequencies from ITM and a ton of flights from China.
 
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centrair
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 17):
I am not sure I'd call KIX an 'international gateway' anymore because it has lost many long-haul routes.
I would call it more a 'regional gateway' these days. Again total movements are at the highest ever, but this is due to shifting of domestic frequencies from ITM and a ton of flights from China.

It has lost lots of European and North American traffic but it is still a gateway to Japan. Asian regional traffic has increased but that is still international. It is still #2 for international flights in Japan. No where near NRT but far above FUK, CTS, Naha and NGO.

North America
SA)">UA, SA)">NW, AC

China/Hong Kong/Taiwan
MF, BR, HU, CX, FM, CI, CA, MU, CZ

Korea / Russia/ Mongolia
KE, OZ, XF, HY, OM

South East Asia / South Asia
PR, GA, SQ, TG, VN, MH, AI, RA

Australia/Oceania
QF, JQ, SB, TN, SA)">CS

Europe
AZ, AF, KL, LH, TK,

Middle East/Africa
EK, QR, MS, SV, SA

Not to mention JL and NH (and their branches) having flights to other locations.
Still quite a diverse number of carriers and destinations. Might be as many frequencies to far off locations as to Korea and China but still not bad. So I would not throw out "International Gateway" quite yet. It is far more of a gateway than my beloved NGO. But far below that of NRT. After all Japan = Tokyo when it comes to visiting.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
airtebiong
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:48 pm

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 15):
Always puzzled me why there weren't more flights to NRT from KIX or ITM....with only one daily flight to LHR on JAL from KIX, I tended to fly BA through NRT. Happy as I was to spend time on the shinkansen, I always used to get frustrated at having to change at Tokyo station to reach NRT - Time wise the train took approx 3 - 3.5hrs too....and that was going quick!

While ITM still remains open, KIX won't see more domestic ops as travellers would prefer ITM's central location. Why don't you try NH and fly LHR-NRT-XXX?

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18):
Not to mention JL and NH (and their branches) having flights to other locations.
Still quite a diverse number of carriers and destinations. Might be as many frequencies to far off locations as to Korea and China but still not bad. So I would not throw out "International Gateway" quite yet. It is far more of a gateway than my beloved NGO. But far below that of NRT. After all Japan = Tokyo when it comes to visiting.

Hey centrair, NGO is special to me too. On a clear day, I can see it from where i live. It's 40 mins by ferry!! (Tsu, Mie)
i believe that beauty is skin deep, and my skin is very deep!!
 
HT
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Thread starter):
Surprised nobody has picked up on it, but a new 4,000m runway will finally commence commercial operations.

It was mentioned in a thread in forum "Tech/Ops" earlier ...
see reply #2 in Kansai- Its Sink Rate, Koaji Sashi And Other?s (by Mirrodie Jul 23 2007 in Tech Ops)
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
zvezda
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
KIX's runways are all 60m in width and taxiways can handle the turning radius of the A346, so in theory A380 is no problem airside. The small problem is ground side. The wingspan of the A380 will probably occupy three gates, but who is going to have A380 ops into KIX. Perhaps EK, but once EK gets Tokyo slots, then it won't be an issue.

With 57 WhaleJets on order, I would expect EK to operate it to KIX regardless of what they're doing at NRT.
 
jimbo27L
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 17):
Correct. Both ITM & NRT have major slot issues. ITM is purely due to restricting movements because of being in the middle of the city, similar to Paris Orly, though it is nowhere near operational capacity.
NRT-KIX hasn't existed in years.



Quoting Centrair (Reply 18):
It has lost lots of European and North American traffic but it is still a gateway to Japan. Asian regional traffic has increased but that is still international. It is still #2 for international flights in Japan. No where near NRT but far above FUK, CTS, Naha and NGO.

Hopefully when the 787 comes on line good and proper, we might see KIX international business pick up. Was the drop in traffic due to the downturn after 9/11, SARS etc??

I suppose landing fees for most carriers are still an issue too, and thats not going to get much better with an addtional island to pay for! Yikes!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting Carpethead (Thread starter):
Details on the build up of the second island have been released but there is still no construction schedule because the current terminal can still handle more capacity.

Will this free up slots for more international airlines? What's the current bi-lateral status?
Thanks!

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Responses are sure slow. I would have thought an opening of a new runway at a (fairly) significant world airport

Its huge! I'm excited! I've just been busy.  Smile  hyper  Japan direly needs more international connections. Yes, mostly at NRT, but KIX is the best substitute.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
With 57 WhaleJets on order, I would expect EK to operate it to KIX regardless of what they're doing at NRT.

I 100% agree. As to the wingspan... so what?!?

To others that comment on the A380 and gates: Its not that hard to move one or two gates to accommodate the A380.  Smile Not when you already have A346/777 spots. Yes, you do remote gates a la DXB. As soon as the A380 starts to fly regularly, there will be incentive to make the operations efficient. Until that day... no need to pre-spend the money when their are alternatives.  spin 

I would have thought that QF would also fly the A380 to KIX. Now, I know absolutely nothing about the Oz-KIX market, but QF has called their routes to Japan very profitable. So will they?

I would love for their to be a cleaner LAX-Kumomoto connection.  Smile I'm never excited about changing airports for a connection. If something isn't done soon, KA will start grabbing US west coast to smaller Japanese cities. Yes, this expansion is great. But with ITM getting the domestic connections... KIX will not achieve the economies of scale it should soon. Eventually, a la JFK and IAD, it will. But those airports took many decades to do so...

Lightsaber
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ktachiya
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 22):
Hopefully when the 787 comes on line good and proper, we might see KIX international business pick up. Was the drop in traffic due to the downturn after 9/11, SARS etc??

I am always confused because I always thought that if JL did fly to NA from KIX on 777, then a 777-200ER could support many routes that were stopped (KIX-ORD, KIX-LAX). I just hope some airline would do KIX-JFK. The downturn of the traffic started before 9/11 I think. It was the high landing fees and maybe less business traffic than one would expect? For instance, NH operated some European service with the B747-200B when the airport first opened, but that all disappeared in a rather short period.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
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centrair
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting Airtebiong (Reply 19):
Hey centrair, NGO is special to me too. On a clear day, I can see it from where i live.

Cool. I took the ferry once from Toba to NGO very nice but pricey (especially if your car is bigger). Sadly that route was dropped though.

Didn't KIX reevaluate the landing fee issues? I thought they reduced fees for all aircraft though the 744 still will be pricey the mid-sized and narrowbody aircraft will pay less. I think they did this after NGO opened as a recommendation from IATA or some other international body. The idea was that NGO was looking at ICN as a competition and that KIX had better step up to the plate.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
but who is going to have A380 ops into KIX.

No one is going to operate to NGO yet the airport has one A380 capable (one level double jet way) and the runway and taxiways were built so that an A380 can be brought in...even if it is only a diversion from NRT. That is the only way we will see one. Personally I think EK is crazy to order so many planes and can't see them operating them to any other place in Japan but NRT. (even then they would be 1/2 full maybe) This is off topic.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
Now, I know absolutely nothing about the Oz-KIX market, but QF has called their routes to Japan very profitable. So will they?

Jetstar is taking over much of the Japan-OZ market in Japan. I think QF is maily doing ops into NRT. I think they pulled out of KIX and are leaving JL to do routes from Japan to OZ.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 23):
I would love for their to be a cleaner LAX-Kumomoto connection.

Fly UA via SFO to NGO. NO AIRPORT TRANSFERS! But the secure area is a little boring. But it is the only route to KMJ where you don't have to change airports!
LAX-SFO
UA889 DEP LAX 7:55 ARR SFO 9:19
SFO-NGO
UA 0831 DEP SFO 10:56 ARR NGO 14:10+1
NGO-KMJ
NH 0335 DEP NGO 16:35 ARR KMJ 17:77

That all said, JL's president did say in an interview about a year ago that with the 787-8 one goal is to rebuild the LAX hub with flights to NGO and KIX. I will believe it when I see it but, it is definately a possibility.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:50 pm

According to another thread, apparently VN may have a jump start on the KIX-LAX, though it's not going to start until winter 2008.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
With 57 WhaleJets on order, I would expect EK to operate it to KIX regardless of what they're doing at NRT.

If loads were that good, then, they would be sending the 773ER than the less capacious A345.
If EK gets their hand on NRT slots, it will be with the biggest equipment they have and if they get more slots then more flights will be added and KIX could go to A332 or whatever smallest equipment they operate and NGO dropped altogether and the 74F takes over.

Quoting Jimbo27L (Reply 22):
Hopefully when the 787 comes on line good and proper, we might see KIX international business pick up. Was the drop in traffic due to the downturn after 9/11, SARS etc??

Both.
Maybe but I wouldn't count on much long-haul growth even with the introduction of the 787.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 24):
I just hope some airline would do KIX-JFK.

I wouldn'T count on anybody doing that run. If its anything to the US or North America, it would be to anyone of the big hubs like ORD, DFW or ATL.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:28 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 25):
Fly UA via SFO to NGO. NO AIRPORT TRANSFERS! But the secure area is a little boring. But it is the only route to KMJ where you don't have to change airports!
LAX-SFO
UA889 DEP LAX 7:55 ARR SFO 9:19
SFO-NGO
UA 0831 DEP SFO 10:56 ARR NGO 14:10+1
NGO-KMJ
NH 0335 DEP NGO 16:35 ARR KMJ 17:77

That all said, JL's president did say in an interview about a year ago that with the 787-8 one goal is to rebuild the LAX hub with flights to NGO and KIX. I will believe it when I see it but, it is definately a possibility.

Hey, thanks. That is a great little schedule. I like the departure and arrival times too.  Smile

Quoting Centrair (Reply 25):
That all said, JL's president did say in an interview about a year ago that with the 787-8 one goal is to rebuild the LAX hub with flights to NGO and KIX. I will believe it when I see it but, it is definately a possibility.

I have hopes that the 787/350 can really open up LAX.  Smile

Alas, I also hope for a roomy/modern international terminal at LAX...  cloudnine  (Build the West Terminal!)  hissyfit 

I'll settle for a great US to Asia/India hub. (NRT, ICN, NGO all have great locations... just not enough runways/connections... yes much of that is bilaterals...) Heck KIX could do a lot of the job! But needs the domestic moved over to drive up the connections. Without that?  yawn 

Lightsaber
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centrair
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RE: KIX To Open New Runway Tomorrow (8/2)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 26):
GO dropped altogether and the 74F takes over.

Woooo. Drop NGO? No...I will not allow it. I wonder if they have any contracts? But as you say..cargo might be better.
But I have a feeling that KIX will stay as is, NGO will stay as is and NRT will get the A380. EK will want to go to as many places as they can and get as many pax as they can. They have connections, DXB has a lure that is attracting Japanese tourists both common and higher class. They are really going head to head with LH, JL and AY here for European connections. Every Sunday newspaper has tons of tours that go through DXB. I always wondered why they went to the A345 from the 772. They said something about the 1st class cabins but can they even get the loads?

As said in this thread tons of times, KIX could do much better if it had better domestic connections. That feed is really hurting KIX. Time to put a limit on aircraft size into ITM and move large movements over to KIX ala NGO/NKM.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!

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